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I find it strange that the people who are going off on Nagisa because her (justified) jealousy had potential implications for Misaki's idol career, seem completely undisturbed by Ayane deliberately crushing it entirely.
Ayane's the unambiguous bad guy so there's nothing to argue about there.
last edited at Mar 6, 2017 3:06PM
I find it strange that the people who are going off on Nagisa because her (justified) jealousy had potential implications for Misaki's idol career, seem completely undisturbed by Ayane deliberately crushing it entirely.
Ayane's single-minded obsession and complete disregard for other people makes it a little hard to relate to her. Instead we just have to acknowledge her results - she gets what she always wanted. Nagisa actually feels like a human being, so we feel more capable of judging her.
Also, if you empathize with Nagisa too much, then this story really is a punch to the gut. She pretty much ends up suffering the most, so it's easier to just blame her.
Or at least that's my amateur psychological analysis. I still think this story is best seen in the tradition of classical tragedies, where a "good" character is brought low by fate and by their own single flaw. For Misaki, her pride is the main issue, which causes her fight with Nagisa, her misplaced trust in Ayane, and ultimately the end of her career.
However, you can ask the same question about Nagisa - and her flaw is obviously her jealousy. Even though she turns out to be right, the way she addresses the problem is both immature and premature. I'm not saying Nagisa's at fault here. But she does have that tragic flaw, which makes it easier to both relate to her and to judge her.
where a "good" character is brought low by fate and by their own single flaw. For Misaki, her pride is the main issue, which causes her fight with Nagisa, her misplaced trust in Ayane, and ultimately the end of her career.
Her one mistake is to leave her phone with Ayane, but I don't see her "pride" being an issue at all. That's not what causes her fight with Nagisa. The reason is that Nagisa pushed her into a corner.
You have to consider the following. Idols can't be in a relationship. It's the golden rule for idols. Nagisa is very lucky that Misaki is not only willing to break that rule to be with her, but also makes a greater effort and even takes Nagisa on dates, despite being a huge risk for her career. Misaki is doing her part here. She's making compromises for the sake of their relationship.
How does Nagisa response to that? Showing distrust. Misaki is already making a huge effort to keep their relationship going and show her affection for Nagisa, and instead of a getting at least a bit of support in return, all she gets is distrust. That's no fair no matter how you look at it.
Also, let's not forget Nagisa sent a picture of them kissing to Misaki while the latter was at work. That was something really stupid and irresponsible. It's like Nagisa doesn't really understand that Misaki is an idol and if someone saw that picture it would be huge issues for Misaki.
It's not that Nagisa is a bad person or anything though. She just was the worst kind of girlfriend an idol could have. That relationship could have never worked, even without Ayane's interventions.
last edited at Mar 6, 2017 7:31PM
Misaki's reaction to Nagisa airing her concerns is absurd. She hears "I'm anxious about your relationship with your coworker" and her response is "You want me to quit my job!?" This is a terrible way to deal with relationship problems, revealing almost paranoid levels of self-obsession. That's on top of Misaki's clear failure to think about her privacy. She knows she's very vulnerable to public attacks, but she doesn't take reasonable precautions to protect herself. In fact, she's pretty cavalier about the whole issue from beginning to end - leaving her phone with Ayane was just one illustration of a problem that had clearly been developing for a while. Then, when her failure to take the problem seriously ends up hurting her, she is completely incapable of considering that it might be her own fault, blaming Nagisa without a second thought. This is hubris.
Nagisa's jealousy plays a role, but it's not the fundamental cause of Misaki's vulnerability to Ayane's manipulations.
I find it strange that the people who are going off on Nagisa because her (justified) jealousy had potential implications for Misaki's idol career, seem completely undisturbed by Ayane deliberately crushing it entirely.
I only question Nagisa, because otherwise we are left to assume that Ayane is some kind of master spy and that Ayane was truly the source of Nagisa's concern. Say Misaki did distance herself from Ayane, would their combined success still be there? Or say Misaki stopped performing with Ayane and paired with someone else, would Nagisa be okay with that? I don't think so. The one with the motive and the means to end Misaki's career was Nagisa, not Ayane where ending Misaki's career could also mean ending her own.
As for Ayane herself, the story never really implies the type of possessiveness shown by Ayane at the end. Even when alone Ayane was shown to be genuinely worried about Misaki.
I'll be honest and say that I think the quick defense of Nagisa is simply because she appears as cute and her behavior is preferred when it comes to thinking about human behavior. But Ayane, even if she is to blame, is still acting just as human as anyone.
I do think that as time went on, even without the revelation in the tabloid, that Ayane could have won Misaki, but this could also happen because she was pushed away by Nagisa's accusation that Misaki may cheat on her. Had Misaki spoken to Nagisa, I don't think Nagisa would listen at all.
Misaki's reaction to Nagisa airing her concerns is absurd. She hears "I'm anxious about your relationship with your coworker" and her response is "You want me to quit my job!?" This is a terrible way to deal with relationship problems, revealing almost paranoid levels of self-obsession.
You're missing the point I explained before. Ayane isn't just a co-worker. Misaki's friendship with her is part of her idol image. The story shows that properly when Misaki says most of the pictures on her official idol blog are of them together. So she literally can't do anything about Nagisa's concerns, short of quitting being an idol. And that's exactly why she asks Nagisa if that's what she wants her to do. It's not unreasonable or illogical, nor is Misaki paranoid. Nagisa is dating an idol, so she should be fully aware of what that means. An idol is a product based on creating an image/character to appeal to the fans. In Misaki's case, part of that character is her relationship with Ayane. They're literally a package deal to their fans, literally. If Misaki were to put some distance between them, her job would suffer. It's a no go, unless she quits. And Nagisa should be aware of that. Otherwise she has no business trying to date an idol.
That's on top of Misaki's clear failure to think about her privacy.
And Nagisa too. She sent the picture to begin with. Only in Misaki's case is just a dumb mistake. In Nagisai's case, it's irresponsibility born from jealousy.
Nagisa's jealousy plays a role, but it's not the fundamental cause of Misaki's vulnerability to Ayane's manipulations.
I disagree. Nagisa's the root of the problem for not fully understanding what it means to date an idol. It's not at all like dating a regular girl. Nagisa clearly wasn't ready for something like that. On the other hand, I can't fault Misaki because she made compromises. As I explained before, an idol is not allowed to have a relationship, yet Misaki doesn't just date Nagisa. She even takes her on actual dates. I know that people who aren't familiarized with the idol thing don't really get how huge this is. But it's huge. Misaki really cared about their relationship and put a ton of effort into it. Nagisa on the other hand rewarded that effort with mistrust. Nagisa is the architect of her own undoing. She lost the chance to explain herself because she wasn't willing to trust her girlfriend when it mattered.
last edited at Mar 6, 2017 9:30PM
I disagree. Nagisa's the root of the problem for not fully understanding what it means to date an idol. It's not at all like dating a regular girl. Nagisa clearly wasn't ready for something like that.
I'm not saying everything is her fault. But the points you bring up are problems with Misaki's career - it's her responsibility to address them. Whatever the context of the relationship, people have feelings. In order to have a successful relationship, you have to be able to address irrational emotions in a constructive way. That doesn't mean you have to DO something, generally talking through things and reassuring someone is effective. Misaki is incapable of doing this - she starts yelling crazily a few minutes in to a discussion. If Nagisa persisted in her jealousy and Misaki was sick of it, then they just would've broken up. But that's not what happened
As to the phone, most people assume that when they send a message to someone's cell, that person is the only one who will see this. Nagisa is the one who sends the picture, Misaki is the one who hands the picture to another person. It's clear from the stuff published in that mag that Misaki and Nagisa discussed their relationship in messages just like normal people do, so it's not like Nagisa just sent her compromising material suddenly out of nowhere. Misaki is the idol - if she had a problem with talking to Nagisa via messaging, she should be the one to tell her that. It's obvious she never did, because if she had, there wouldn't be such specific records of their relationship in her phone.
To address the problems you bring up, Misaki should be the one to never use the phone for relationship stuff, to be careful with her privacy, and to communicate these precautions to Nagisa. All the indications are that she never attempted to do this. It's bizarre to hold Nagisa to a higher standard of behavior than Misaki when Misaki is the one in a position to know what must be done. Nagisa's irrational jealousy might've destroyed their relationship, but Misaki's hubris was what allowed Ayane to end her career.
I'm not saying everything is her fault. But the points you bring up are problems with Misaki's career - it's her responsibility to address them.
There are no problems with her job. That's just how her career works. If Nagisa can't deal with it, that's her problem. And it's not like Misaki didn't make compromises for her sake.
Whatever the context of the relationship, people have feelings. In order to have a successful relationship, you have to be able to address irrational emotions in a constructive way. That doesn't mean you have to DO something, generally talking through things and reassuring someone is effective. Misaki is incapable of doing this - she starts yelling crazily a few minutes in to a discussion.
No, she starts by calmly explaining that her friendship with Ayane is part of her job and she can't do anything about it. That should have been the end of it but Nagisa wasn't satisfied with that and started a rant about not trusting her and whatnot, unnecessarily pushing Misaki into a corner. Misaki had already explained the situation. That's all she could do for Nagisa.
Besides, why does Misaki have to deal with Nagisa's shit when she's the one putting the most effort into the relationship. She's the idol who breaks the rules to be together. She's the one taking her girlfriend on dates despite being a huge risk for her career. She's doing all that and Nagisa comes out with this shit? Come on.
And again, it's not like she blew off on Nagisa from the start. She explained her situation properly first. She only got mad when Nagisa insisted on not trusting her.
Misaki's hubris was what allowed Ayane to end her career
The scene with Misaki giving her phone to Ayane happens before her argument with Nagisa. There was no hubris in this scene. It's just a dumb mistake.
It would be hubris if this happened after her argument with Nagisa and she gave Ayane her phone to prove a point or something like that. That's not the case.
As to the phone, most people assume that when they send a message to someone's cell, that person is the only one who will see this.
Misaki was at work. Some co-worker could have looked at her phone's screen by chance that was it. That would have been the end of her career, literally. I have to assume that Nagisa knows that, so what the hell is she doing? Misaki's an idiot too, but in Misaki's case it's just her being dumb. There's no deeper reason. In Nagisa's case, her jealousy is to blame. She sent the picture because she was jealous.
last edited at Mar 7, 2017 4:27AM
holy shit...
i dont want to read drama but i read it though and cry
I freaking knew it
"hey pal, people think you're a lesbo or something, you should avoid that kind of stuff"
"fuck that, here, hold this phone that has a picture of me kissing a girl"
"kay"
Ayane did nothing wrong tbh
MC being stupid as she was, things were going to get out one day anyway.
last edited at Mar 7, 2017 4:18PM
Ayane did nothing wrong tbh
?????????
Really, what? No matter if the main character was being stupid Ayane was unambiguously 100% in the wrong for her actions. She not only ruined her coworker's career but outed her as a lesbian. That's a shitty thing to do no matter how you look at it.
I find it strange that the people who are going off on Nagisa because her (justified) jealousy had potential implications for Misaki's idol career, seem completely undisturbed by Ayane deliberately crushing it entirely.
I agree complete! Just because Nagisa was getting warning signals doesn't mean she wasn't a good partner. But what else could she do after she was completely outmatched by an evil genius that Misaki trusted more than her own girlfriend? Logically speaking, the earlier photos in that magazine of "Misaki's affairs" were probably from Ayane as well, so this outcome was practically an inevitability if Misaki herself wasn't going to have faith in their relationship.
Kazu, I respectfully disagree with most of your points. I fail to understand you point of view. I could make counter arguments to your points, but as i recall there was something about debating in forums being frowned upon so I'll leave it at that. Unless I get a go ahead, than in which case behold~~
Still thinking that Ayane did what she had to do in order to get what she wanted. Looking at the result, she comes out on top, without question.
Maybe people don't want to relate to her, because she's "an horrible person", but looking at it with cynicism, she did a good job.
but as i recall there was something about debating in forums being frowned upon
Debating is like entire point of forum existing. As long as you are civil about it, it is fine to discuss stuff.
Still thinking that Ayane did what she had to do in order to get what she wanted. Looking at the result, she comes out on top, without question.
Maybe people don't want to relate to her, because she's "an horrible person", but looking at it with cynicism, she did a good job.
Yes, sure she had no problem going as far as she needed to get what she wants and succeeded. Nobody deny it, but as you nicely pointed out, she is an horrible person. I really don't think most people wants to live around such people who are basically sociopaths who will do anything to make things go their way, no matter how much they have to hurt and manipulate others for their selfish needs. Sure you can add cynicism and say everything goes as long as you got what you want, but that isn't a point isn't it? We want to be able to trust other, for things to be genuine. I don't think people don't want to relate to her, but rather can't relate to her, because she has no empathy at all and can do such horrible things to other people without batting an eye. We want to believe people are better than that as much as it usually is just being idealistic and optimistic, but we still prefer to think people generally don't do stuff like that behind our back 24/7. So yea, I think trying to defend Ayane's actions actually says a lot about person and how they view the world in general. I definitely don't want to live in world like that and can't relate to someone so inhuman like Ayane.
last edited at Mar 8, 2017 7:33AM
So dark -_-
Fell corrupted now...
Yeah i just knew that biatch was evil right when she appeared... what exactly did she want, that manipulated girl's love, her personal idol who writes lyrics for her, or stuff like getting her out of her way to become greater...??? O_o
"hey pal, people think you're a lesbo or something, you should avoid that kind of stuff"
"fuck that, here, hold this phone that has a picture of me kissing a girl"
"kay"
Ayane did nothing wrong tbh
MC being stupid as she was, things were going to get out one day anyway.
Oh sooo trueeee! I was thinking 'WHY DA HEOLL ARE YOU SHOWING AND GIVING HER YOUR LEZBIAN PHONE?!?' O_O... but i guess she thought she could trust her most in that situation... :/
Still thinking that Ayane did what she had to do in order to get what she wanted. Looking at the result, she comes out on top, without question.
Maybe people don't want to relate to her, because she's "an horrible person", but looking at it with cynicism, she did a good job.
Really can't deny that either...
That girl is definitely an evil genius. The only sketchy thing about her plan is the fact that she kept that picture of them kissing on her phone 6 months into dating. It feels like it could have been spotted at any time, but then again, when you're that careful and that trusted, even that's not an issue.
Saw that coming.
Saw that coming.