@Serenata
What series are you referring to actually?

At least for me, I haven't ran into any series which went 180 on me, except maybe shitsurakuen. The early content usually gives a good idea of what to expect, this is seeming like KinMoza tier. Don't take kissing too seriously when it's a device for something else.

Nevertheless, here yuri is defined as “the overdone affection between two girls peculiar to girls in puberty,” adding that it is “a limited-time pseudo love”

That's interesting, that sounds like a description of Class S. Got the sauce?

Nevertheless, here yuri is defined as “the overdone affection between two girls peculiar to girls in puberty,” adding that it is “a limited-time pseudo love”

"pseudo love" because you know, girls can't love girls, really, japanese should stop with this bullshit and make a magazine that is explicity for lesbian stories, sigh.

There were different attempts, the most notable one was Carmilla if I'm correct. But they don't sell well and are short-lived.

But I'd say that this definition by Yuri Shimai is a little surrealist. I mean Yuri Shimai was the ancestor of the actual Yuri Hime, and there is plenty of works in here that are lesbian, or at least lesbian-ish, the works of Amano Shuninta for example.
And even in Yuri Shimai, we had Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter.

But, Yuri Shimai was created by a guy inspired by Marimite, so this can explains that.

last edited at Dec 19, 2015 2:03PM

Thanks guys. Got it. Yuri is dead. When we delete dynasty?

Thanks guys. Got it. Yuri is dead. When we delete dynasty?

We need to save koneko, he is our mvp

last edited at Dec 19, 2015 2:32PM

You keep saying that mangas like Kuroko and free have yaoi baits too but I bet they would never hold hands and blush and much less kiss and then be like "You're my ....best friend"

Yeah, nobody here is complaining about like, K-on not going full yuri.

Don't take kissing too seriously when it's a device for something else.

But only if there's two girls involved.

Thanks guys. Got it. Yuri is dead. When we delete dynasty?

That's kind of a leap.

OriginalGengar posted:

Thanks guys. Got it. Yuri is dead. When we delete dynasty?

That's kind of a leap.

Not really. Since Yuri is about friendship, dynasty was wrong all along being site about Lesbianism, not Yuri. We need to delete it and make new one, so it will fit. Also we are not Yuri fans. We are Lesbians fans. How good someone enlightened us <3

Oh. I just ignored that part because I thought we went over that in the Class S discussion already.

OriginalGengar posted:

Oh. I just ignored that part because I thought we went over that in the Class S discussion already.

Me too >.>

OriginalGengar posted:

Thanks guys. Got it. Yuri is dead. When we delete dynasty?

That's kind of a leap.

Not really. Since Yuri is about friendship, dynasty was wrong all along being site about Lesbianism, not Yuri. We need to delete it and make new one, so it will fit. Also we are not Yuri fans. We are Lesbians fans. How good someone enlightened us <3

Heeeeeee.

It's more complicated than that. The statements, –even, and mainly in Japan– about what is "yuri" are contradictory.
I find that sentence one day: Yuri's greatest characteristic may well be its lack of definable characteristic.
Sounds like fun to me.

But that why now, I tend to warn the newcomers that yuri isn't necessarily about lesbians, that they'll find lesbian stuffs, but they'll other things too.
I mean, like pretty anybody here, I got into yuri expecting lesbian stuffs, and I find what I wanted, thing that are lesbian or at least can pass for lesbian stuffs, but I find some other things, and I like it too.

lady_freyja posted:

It's more complicated than that. The statements, –even, and mainly in Japan– about what is "yuri" are contradictory.
I find that sentence one day: Yuri's greatest characteristic may well be its lack of definable characteristic.
Sounds like fun to me.

But that why now, I tend to warn the newcomers that yuri isn't necessarily about lesbians, that they'll find lesbian stuffs, but they'll other things too.
I mean, like pretty anybody here, I got into yuri expecting lesbian stuffs, and I find what I wanted, thing that are lesbian or at least can pass for lesbian stuffs, but I find some other things, and I like it too.

Oh really?

lady_freyja posted:

So if you find the sentence "I'm a lesbian" in a "yuri manga", you can wonder if that manga is really a yuri, and not a lesbian manga considered as "yuri" by Westerners.

Trying to sound less extreme now?

last edited at Dec 19, 2015 2:50PM

"You can wonder", I'm not saying that's always the case.

And as I said before in the topic, my definition of "yuri" is pretty inclusive:

The best definition of the yuri genre that I found is "female same-sex intimacy". So it's everything that is more that "just friendship": including lesbianism, "spiritual connection" (that's the expression used by the director of Yuri Hime…), the Class S things, or even intimate friendship.

Maybe I express myself pretty bad, but what I mean is that there isn't one definition of what "yuri" is, and it depends of the individuals.
Nobody, even in Japan, seems to agree about what "yuri" is, so who am I to say what exactly is? That's why I prefer the more vague and inclusive definition possible. Hence "female same-sex intimacy".

Still bullshit though, because when it's yaoi everyone is 100% sure the characters are gay, but yuri? Noooooooo, they're not always gay, they just act gay.

Althought we can't always be sure a manga we call yuri really is yuri, pretty much all mangas that end in subtext are from magazines that are not yuri and not promoted as such either, Yuyushiki for example, the mangaka did yuri before and even other characters suspect something happens, but it's published in Kirara and one of the girls is in an arranged marriage too, it's pretty much always slice of life that teases us, it's only a few that have male characters that act gayish, most of the time it is a male and female main characters and it's pretty sure they will become a couple, but when it's only female characters they pretty much tease yuri fans to sell more, sometimes I suspect that in a lot of those mangas they wanted it to go full gay but the publishers don't let them do it, right now I can remember two from Kirara that are indeed yuri, The Last Uniform and Kanamemo, althought in Kanamemo I don't know if it really is yuri, if the main character don't end up with that girl that likes her would it really be a yuri manga or just a slice of life with lesbian side couple?

The best definition of yuri I've found is women being gay. Also the only one I've ever heard of right before the Class S discussion.

And honestly, I really don't care about what actual japanese people think counts as yuri. Friendship doesn't get a genre dedicated to it.

last edited at Dec 19, 2015 4:17PM

OriginalGengar posted:

Friendship doesn't get a genre dedicated to it.

cough shounen cough

But according to japan female friendship is a genre, because young girls are not really girls but an asexual inhuman creature that can act super gay without being gay and only when they're older they'll be really female, so they need to find a man to have children when that time come, before that any love is fake and should be discarded, specially for another girl, if it's a guy it's okay though because it's real then, so they need to make a lot of mangas with super gay girls that are not really gay to teach that's normal for straight girls and that no, all that feelings and emotion they have are platonic instead of real romantic and sexual attraction for the same sex because they're not really female yet so they can't be gay and when they grow up and become a real woman they want The D a guy.

Friendship doesn't get a genre dedicated to it.

cough shounen cough

But friendship is just one aspect, main purpose is bland characters for self insert because real life in japan sucks

And if anything the only genre I think that could be more about friendship is slice of life.

But really, for me yuri is relationship between lesbians like yaoi is for gay man, anything else is fucking bullshit : X

Thiaguinho-sama posted:

Friendship doesn't get a genre dedicated to it.

cough shounen cough

But friendship is just one aspect, main purpose is bland characters for self insert because real life in japan sucks

Show me Shounen that doesn't heavily focus on power of friendship.

Show me Shounen that doesn't heavily focus on power of friendship.

Touche.

Shounen is a demographic though, so I still feel good about what I said.

last edited at Dec 19, 2015 5:09PM

I'm not sure about that, shounen, shoujo, seinen, josei and others are pretty much treated as genres nowadays instead of demographic.

last edited at Dec 19, 2015 5:26PM

It's not that yuri isn't about lesbians. More like, every people has a different view of yuri in Japan. Some think it's just about strong friendship, some think that's about romance between girls regardless of their sexuality (the infamous "I'm not gay, but I love you), and some think it's about lesbians stories.
It's a niche genre, so it makes sense that they'll try to appeal to everyone.
Also, the word "lesbian" carries a political view, something that otakus usually avoid.
There's also that fact that the guy responsible by SonoHana series said. They wanted to make girls loving girls looks like the most natural thing in the world, so using a word to make it something "different" isn't a good idea. Yuri isn't about political agenda, it's about entertainment, and sometime escapism. That's why a lot of works avoid themes like homophoby. I think even their lesbians readers want to read something to escape that.

Assuming that every reason why the genre is so subtle is because the public are homophobe is wrong.

I myself like it subtle. I think it's nice when they make it clear that a character like girls without having to make her yell: "Look how gay I am!". That looks as silly as a straight character showing how het they are.

The thing about Nanoha, for example, is that it was never supposed to be a yuri ship to begin with. The writers clearly tried to force Nanoha x Yuuno for a long time. It just become a subtexty thing because fans took that way...and the seiyuu actually helped them.
If the fans had a different reaction, I'm sure Nanoha would be married with Yuuno in Strikers.

Also, the assumption that yaoi is more serious than yuri is wrong. I saw people complaing about every yaoi work was about a guy that would say they were not gay, but they loved that one guy only. That when it was not about a guy falling in love with the guy that raped him.
The fact is, something like this story would never be yaoi, because yaoi isn't about emotional bonds, but about fetishizing gay sex to female readers.

Anyway, I'm kinda tired of people complaining about the way theses slice of life works. Comedy stories rarely have serious romance, even with het couples. And when they do, they get boring, like it happened with Working!.
Also, we don't know if these stories are meant to be yuri or not, because we can't enter the authors mind. But keep in mind that most of theses authors made yuri or yaoi in the past, so they're okay with it. Also, forget about how other people will see it and just enjoy it by how you interpret it.

These are not political stories. They're not meant to be a view of social issues, but a fun read.

I think the interpretitation is mostly depended on the host; as in a magazine, internet site. I think the shounen/shojo-disctinction works fairly well, but when dwelving in too deep you're bound to be confused. Yaoi is pretty well defined as a distinction to the basic shounen male-friendship, but yuri not as so... to the cute-girls-doing-cute-stuff-with-some-subtext.

And honestly, I really don't care about what actual japanese people think counts as yuri.

Exactly. does it actually matter to us in the slightest what Japanese manga fans are labeling "yuri" vs "lesbian" or whatever? We already have our definition pretty much set in the West (yuri = lesbian), we don't have to change it to fit what the Japanese are calling it nowadays.

last edited at Dec 19, 2015 5:36PM

As a community where yuri nerds gather, I suggest we have some clarification on this matter of what is yuri and such.

Yuri is romance between girls/women as a form of entertainment/food for thoughts for the readers. What else?

Whether that romance lasts, if it's for experimentation until graduation, or whatever is irrelevant. It's "feelings more than friendship between girls".

K-on is not yuri for example. None of the girls ever said that they wanted more than friendship.

If there's only sex, or the romance is only a pretext for lots of sex, it's called lesbian porn. Which is more targeted at males than females. Usual yuri's target is female. Though men can enjoy it and females can enjoy porn too, of course.

And honestly, I really don't care about what actual japanese people think counts as yuri.

Exactly. does it actually matter to us in the slightest what Japanese manga fans are labeling "yuri" vs "lesbian" or whatever? We already have our definition pretty much set in the West (yuri = lesbian), we don't have to change it to fit what the Japanese are calling it nowadays.

I see what you're saying, but since Japan is the biggest exporter of "yuri" works, the way they define yuri is very relevant. I'm increasingly worried that yuri is gonna turn into subtext and nothing more.