Bait, or not bait, that is the question

Context:
https://dynasty-scans.com/images/34671
https://dynasty-scans.com/images/34701

The term "bait" is often used wantonly and with little regard to the intentionality it implies. Perhaps we need another term for things that look seem like yuri at first, but aren't. "Fool's Yuri", perhaps?

I always considered "bait" something that harms the yuri in the series. Something that goes beyond just "not being yuri" or hyperbolically yuri, but go as far as making it impossible after introducing and/or developing the series towards what it seems to be yuri. Just like what an actual bait is supposed to do. I assume that's the same reason for why "trap" is considered transphobic nowadays. Would the "Fool's Yuri" that you suggest fit the definition of "bait" that I wrote?

I would argue that there's a difference between "bait" and "bait and switch", namely the rug pull.

FYI there would have been the thread on Doujin: Gundam: GQuuuuuuX for this, but what's done is done...

In response to hgmule, I agree that calling it "bait and switch" is more descriptive, but alas, it's going to get shortened in conversation anyway, so I might as well keep using that term for the remainder of this post.

To start with definitions, we should start with commonalities between "Fool's Yuri" and "Bait": They both are

Ⅰ. Not actually yuri, for whatever that might mean to somebody

but

Ⅱ. Seem like yuri to the reasonable observer.

I.e. things that can neither be "Fool's Yuri" nor "Bait" include Sakura Trick (¬Ⅰ(x): it's actually yuri) or Mutafukaz (¬Ⅱ(x): doesn't seem like yuri). It follows that the deciding factor is whether

Ⅲ. the false appearance of yuri is intentional.

(One could argue that the type of intention, maliciousness in particular, also plays a role, yet I fail to imagine a situation where such deception isn't at minimum grossly negligent to the point of hazarding ill-will.) It's "Bait" iff the misleading appearance of yuri is by design, else it's "Fool's Yuri". Formally, bait(x) ↔ Ⅰ(x)∧Ⅱ(x)∧Ⅲ(x).

(Sorry I just discovered the forum actually renders this and got carried away having fun.)

But this leaves us with 3 dimensions where people can and will draw the line differently. What is and isn't yuri has been debated ever since the genre was recognized, yuri goggles are a meme for a reason, and the creative processes in (original) anime especially involve too many cooks to be sure about a singular directing vision. And of course, the part doesn't make the whole; aforementioned No Game No Life has (IIRC) an actual, developed lesbian side-couple, but being ecchi slop, also plenty of Girl/Girl-fanservice.

I maintain GTHuuuuuuD is bait. So far there's nothing warranting the yuri label, the initial expectation wasn't entirely unreasonable given the marketing and fuelled even further by Episode 1, and again, they definitely knew what they were doing after GWitch. You'd have to show me either proof of a severely troubled production (rewrites?), or explain to me how the audience (including those complaining about "yet another woke gundam") was just hallucinating things to change my mind.

last edited at Jun 4, 2025 2:39PM

Unrelated to GCucks specifically and talking about the bait discussion in general, I think "bait" can be an often over used term. Especially when there's subtext, and I've seen so many cases where people think subtext = bait. A trickier one is physical intimacy in relationships that don't go as far as romantic, there's some lines and blurring, it depends also on how it's handled. I'd say I try to use bait sparingly as long as the creators aren't intentionally trying to tease a romantic / sexual relationship between 2 characters of the same sex only to drive off the road into het territory.

With GCucks specifically from the episodes I watched it felt like they wanted to tease something between Machu and Nyaan very early only for the characters to settle on a hetero love triangle instead. The series isn't over and I haven't seen all of the episodes, but from what I watched it felt like a bait and switch.

While the very roommates ED is of course trowing the yuri vibes around, I've always kept my expectations for any actual yuri in Duck Gundam to a minimum, especially since we only just had a full yuri Gundam series.

^I wouldn't call WfM "full" Yuri since Suletta and Miorine weren't allowed be as intimate as the straight couples even in the same series

^I wouldn't call WfM "full" Yuri since Suletta and Miorine weren't allowed be as intimate as the straight couples even in the same series

They got married, and even have matching wedding ring merch. Plus their engagement is at the core of the story. Yes I would have liked to see more physical elements to their relationship and the wedding, but the series is still very much about a lesbian engagement and their eventual marriage. Which to me makes it a series with a lesbian heart, and that's how I will remain to feel about it until my dying days.

I do feel the need to point out that Anno has stated that Tsurumaki (the director if you didn't know) first conceived GQuuuuuuX and sent the idea to Sunrise back in 2018, making it older than G-Witch depending on how you count. It just took longer to make, which I guess we can attribute to it being the first Gundam anime made in cooperation with a different studio.

The point is, any connection we can make between those two series is likely a coincidence.

I think it's a bit hard to call GQuacks bait or not given the series isn't over yet and it's clear that at least some confrontation between Nyaan and Machu is yet to come

Though that's honestly not my main issue with the series, my main problem with it is that the pacing just feels abysmal. Far worse than G:Witch's second season pacing issues. It's blitzing through things far too quickly. Still a show that I'm having fun watching but I just can't get nearly as invested in it as I could with G:Witch.

Talking about G-Witch, I wish it had a third season instead of introducing a multiple plot points just to have to give closure to everything in the final episode

I think it's a bit hard to call GQuacks bait or not given the series isn't over yet and it's clear that at least some confrontation between Nyaan and Machu is yet to come

Though that's honestly not my main issue with the series, my main problem with it is that the pacing just feels abysmal. Far worse than G:Witch's second season pacing issues. It's blitzing through things far too quickly. Still a show that I'm having fun watching but I just can't get nearly as invested in it as I could with G:Witch.

Yeah I know GWitch gets a lot of hate for it's pacing, and I think more episodes could have helped, though I don't hate the pacing so much as I just think it could have been improved. GCucks on the other hand felt like light speed pacing when I was watching, I remember watching episodes and thinking Goodness if people thought GWitch was too fast this is way faster.

Goodness if people thought GWitch was too fast this is way faster.

Anyway, grabbing that from Discord to post here is how I found out that's Keemstar

last edited at Jun 4, 2025 7:20PM

FYI there would have been the thread on Doujin: Gundam: GQuuuuuuX for this, but what's done is done...

Unrelated to GCucks specifically and talking about the bait discussion in general

I wanted to avoid the thread on Doujin: Gundam: GQuuuuuuX because this conversation isn't exclusively about it. We were talking about other series as well as the neverending bait debate. My bad for the title, I'll rename to something else.

Ⅰ. Not actually yuri
Ⅱ. Seem like yuri
Ⅲ. the false appearance of yuri is intentional

Are you a mathematician or something?. Anyways, bait(x) ↔ Ⅰ(x)∧Ⅱ(x)∧Ⅲ(x) seems consistent. That implies that foolsyuri(x) ↔ Ⅰ(x)∧Ⅱ(x)∧¬Ⅲ(x), am I right? Now you got me wondering if ¬Ⅰ(x)∧¬Ⅱ(x) is a thing (I guess that's the case for GWitch). Or even more insane: ¬Ⅰ(x)∧Ⅲ(x).

I've seen this "bait and switch" being used before, but I assumed it meant the same as "bait", after all, no one would hook a fish to let it swim freely. I think that's what Zesc meant.

Talking about G-Witch, I wish it had a third season instead of introducing a multiple plot points just to have to give closure to everything in the final episode

That's the community consensus I guess. So many interesting characters went to waste... And from everyone's comments on GCucks, I can see the story being modified in order to deliver something similar to GWitch, considering its success.

i'm not a gundam fan so this is purely about the question of what is and isn't bait, and i do think intent matters a LOT. and it can be difficult in many cases to tell, because very often we don't know the behind-the-scenes of any given work.

my take is that subtext becomes bait when they could commit, but instead go for the "plausible deniability" thing for demographic and marketing reasons. a clear example of the latter is love live, which toes the yuri line just enough to rile up shippers without ever actually being romantic. framing here is really important. if the subtext people point at is all fanservice, casual physical affection, or Super Best Friends statements, chances are it's bait! and imo bait itself isn't a bad thing at all so long as you know what you're getting into -- and that includes scummy rug pulls from canon.

subtext that is not bait, however, resembles straight romance in framing and writing. an easy example i can give is clannad's anime, where they're never shown kissing, and all the romance and love is in those small gestures that are given immense weight. this isn't to call clannad itself subtext, but to say that sincere subtextual yuri follows the same cues.

one case i enjoyed is in fresh precure, which has this scene where setsuna (in a moment of peril) calls out love's name... and love immediately wakes up from sleeping, implying this soulmate level connection. over in aikatsu, ichigo and mizuki's relationship is such strong subtext that it became text and bamco made them backpedal (because they're homophobic). secret moonlit meetings alone together, mizuki's name for her gradually changing (ichigo-chan -> hoshimiya -> ichigo) as it develops, and all the writing in season 1 that framed them as something fated and perfectly matching. good subtext doesn't need to say "i love you" out loud to clearly show two people in love.

i probably wrote too much, but... it's something i think about a lot myself, so hopefully i'm making sense here lol

i'm not a gundam fan so this is purely about the question of what is and isn't bait, and i do think intent matters a LOT. and it can be difficult in many cases to tell, because very often we don't know the behind-the-scenes of any given work.

my take is that subtext becomes bait when they could commit, but instead go for the "plausible deniability" thing for demographic and marketing reasons. a clear example of the latter is love live, which toes the yuri line just enough to rile up shippers without ever actually being romantic. framing here is really important. if the subtext people point at is all fanservice, casual physical affection, or Super Best Friends statements, chances are it's bait! and imo bait itself isn't a bad thing at all so long as you know what you're getting into -- and that includes scummy rug pulls from canon.

subtext that is not bait, however, resembles straight romance in framing and writing. an easy example i can give is clannad's anime, where they're never shown kissing, and all the romance and love is in those small gestures that are given immense weight. this isn't to call clannad itself subtext, but to say that sincere subtextual yuri follows the same cues.

one case i enjoyed is in fresh precure, which has this scene where setsuna (in a moment of peril) calls out love's name... and love immediately wakes up from sleeping, implying this soulmate level connection. over in aikatsu, ichigo and mizuki's relationship is such strong subtext that it became text and bamco made them backpedal (because they're homophobic). secret moonlit meetings alone together, mizuki's name for her gradually changing (ichigo-chan -> hoshimiya -> ichigo) as it develops, and all the writing in season 1 that framed them as something fated and perfectly matching. good subtext doesn't need to say "i love you" out loud to clearly show two people in love.

i probably wrote too much, but... it's something i think about a lot myself, so hopefully i'm making sense here lol

I think you're making sense. It's also a matter of perspective and opinion, people will view things differently and use words differently. In your case it sounds like you use bait a lot more than I do, for example you think Love Live is bait and I don't. I know Love Live won't have canonical romances but will provide solid fuel for fan artists to work with, to me that's not bait as I'm not getting baited by anything, I'm merely consuming media where I know my reaction will be "their relationship is cute and I can easily imagine more". For me that's more so a branch on the tree of subtext. I'd only use bait if Love Live introduced men that came in and swept the girls off their feet after the series produced all of that relationship fuel between the girls. Along those lines it's why I generally view bait as a negative term and typically a bad thing. As media that wants to reel you in with a promising same sex relationship but then swerves into a hetero one feels like a homophobic "gotcha" to me. So I think all of these terms are various cases of millage will vary.

Reminds me also that in my opinion Flip Flappers is Yuri, a lot of subtext though I thought the relationship was clear. Yet I saw another case today where people were calling it bait, and personally I found that frustrating. Alas though, arguing is generally not worth the time. I have my views and others have their views.

Are you a mathematician or something?.

Worse, I'm german.

Now you got me wondering if ¬Ⅰ(x)∧¬Ⅱ(x) is a thing (I guess that's the case for GWitch).

What first comes to my mind is Magical Girl Spec-Ops Asuka which has way to much going on to initially realize there's actually a lesbian romance treated seriously beneath (also war crimes and PTSD). And perhaps Kill la Kill? I guess everything with a longer setup for a trans story also counts.

Or even more insane: ¬Ⅰ(x)∧Ⅲ(x).

Maria+Holic. Baits you with fake gay to unceremoniously deliver real gay.

no one would hook a fish to let it swim freely.

Err... catch-and-release is a thing. I don't really fish due to being a forest creature, but I have definitely baited animals in the past to release them afterwards for wildlife monitoring.

Reminds me also that in my opinion Flip Flappers is Yuri, a lot of subtext though I thought the relationship was clear. Yet I saw another case today where people were calling it bait, and personally I found that frustrating.

I hope you provided basic first aid then; anybody not recognizing Flip Flappers as yuri probably has a concussion. "I love you" was being said multiple times, they end the series in wedding dresses and Cocona explicitly denies that she'd like Papika more if she were male. And I though me calling LycoReco bait was controversial... (Come at me! I pre-emptively mined the perimeter with LEGO bricks!)

my take is that subtext becomes bait when they could commit, but instead go for the "plausible deniability" thing for demographic and marketing reasons. a clear example of the latter is love live, which toes the yuri line just enough to rile up shippers without ever actually being romantic. framing here is really important. if the subtext people point at is all fanservice, casual physical affection, or Super Best Friends statements, chances are it's bait! and imo bait itself isn't a bad thing at all so long as you know what you're getting into -- and that includes scummy rug pulls from canon.

Whilst I strongly resonate with that sentiment, I think it is ultimately untenable: by the same measure most ship tease would be bait (though het bait). Merely not committing to a romance you could write isn't bad lest you want every story to contain those terribly forced "nobody ends up alone" relationships that regularly kill sitcoms.

No Game No Life has (IIRC) an actual, developed lesbian side-couple, but being ecchi slop, also plenty of Girl/Girl-fanservice.

I've been looking for Feel x Clammy art to request uploads of, but all of Pixiv has exactly three posts shipping them (two of which are untranslated doujins). But! There's loads of yuri of the canonically straight girls, gnarf...

---

As an example that is 100% undeniably bait, and also a mecha anime from Sunrise, let's take Cross Ange: With only two male characters (both villains) so far, we have a strong rivals to lovers setup (with said lover being also part of a lesbian harem turned polycule) which turns into a love triangle where the other member is introduced by, I kid you not, singing a song only she and the protagonist know how to sing, whilst the background flashes them meeting, fighting and marrying in different world lines.

The protagonist ends up with a random guy on whose island she crash lands. Bonus points for said guy explicitly stating how he sees himself as her knight and has no romantic interest in her.

Fucking bait. We can agree on that.

Back to GBaaaaaaZ: I strongly agree this is badly paced. Ep 1 is the protagonist stumbling over illegal defence technology. Ep 2 is a unrelated flashback that's probably even for Gundam aficionados disconnected to the happenings so far. And by Ep 3 the people she just met, like, yesterday, are completely fine with her acting like she owns that massively illegal clandestine staging facility? This feels like watching one of those weird recap movies that try to retell the story a 24 episodes anime in 2 hours whilst also adding new scenes for whatever reasons.

was controversial...

LycoReco is a ship I love and I never expected them to even be as close as they are in canon, and even if there's not romantic progression there I'm personally content with the relationship, though I'd be happy if it went further. I'd personally only call it bait if they introduced a male love interest or two for our main duo, that would genuinely piss me off. Also I do love that Chisato has a canonically gay adoptive dad that's supportive of her, Mika is cool

Cross Ange

Ugh, I forgot about that and instantly took mental damage from remembering that whole mess just now

Whilst I strongly resonate with that sentiment, I think it is ultimately untenable: by the same measure most ship tease would be bait (though het bait). Merely not committing to a romance you could write isn't bad lest you want every story to contain those terribly forced "nobody ends up alone" relationships that regularly kill sitcoms.

yeah, this is a good point. i think it's partly because i view yuri bait as fundamentally different from het ship teasing, because of historical/societal treatment. having clear yuri can easily pigeonhole your larger story into a tight niche, and i think that discourages a lot of corps and investors funding these

the result is that yuri is inherently more risky than het -- unless it's deniable. then they get to play both fields and appease both the shippers and the straight men, homophobes, etc. it's a wider net at the cost of sincerity, basically, which is a larger issue with anime and media these days lol

to bring up a counter example, dot hack sign sets up what's clearly a romance early on with the assumption that it's het... and then reveals, actually, they're both girls and that changes nothing about the dynamic. it's like a trojan horse approach and i thought it was really clever (along with just being a great watch to begin with)

i view yuri bait as fundamentally different from het ship teasing, because of historical/societal treatment

Yeah there's a difference in treatment and historical/societal treatment as you're saying, though sometimes relationship teasing is the best that the creatives can do due to the people in power and companies in charge of things. A lot of times creatives are forced to work with companies that provide money but have a lot of say over the project, it's often a difficult relationship that restrains the hands of creatives. I often find there's a lot of nuance and so forth to these situations, which I think that's a big part of why I don't want to classify creatives as insincere without having all the facts. That's also part of why I don't want to use "Bait" as freely as you do, I see that term used so commonly for so many pieces media and relationships that to me it feels like it's commonly doing more harm than good at this point.

these days

I'm generally not a fan of this sentiment myself, because in my opinion there's a lot of sincere media out there that's being made. Also that in my experience people look back at older media very fondly through the lens of nostalgia, while ignoring any problems, and saying basically no or very little modern media has any value. I see people say all the time that there's been no good music, anime, movies, books, tv, games, so on made in the last 20-30 years, and statements like that genuinely make me sad and frustrated, because I've seen passionate creators making fantastic media every year, including media that I'm personally not into but other people love. I believe there's always been a mix of things no matter the time, and it depends on where you look.

With same sex relationships in modern media, there's two somewhat recent live action show adaptions of manga that are focused on lesbian couples that come to mind, and I don't think we would have gotten those back in the day. Or the various upcoming anime adaptions of Yuri series such as Green Yuri. Even the marriage elemental in GWitch feels like a massive step forward even with the series not showing a lot, they are in fact a married same sex couple. I don't think GWitch or the people that directly worked on the show are insincere about the relationship, more so that there's a lot of red tape people still unfortunately have to work with, including that dumb Bandai producer that was an ass about the relationship, and yet creatives are still making important progress. With the West you have people doing their best as well, Disney screwed over Dana Terrace and her team with Owl House, and yet she still made an incredibly sincere and fantastic series with a wonderful same sex couple. People are trying, we're getting more progress bit by bit in some ways, and unfortunately companies and people in power want to push things back, the best we can do is keep pushing forward.

Yeah there's a difference in treatment and historical/societal treatment as you're saying, though sometimes relationship teasing is the best that the creatives can do due to the people in power and companies in charge of things. A lot of times creatives are forced to work with companies that provide money but have a lot of say over the project, it's often a difficult relationship that restrains the hands of creatives. I often find there's a lot of nuance and so forth to these situations, which I think that's a big part of why I don't want to classify creatives as insincere without having all the facts. That's also part of why I don't want to use "Bait" as freely as you do, I see that term used so commonly for so many pieces media and relationships that to me it feels like it's commonly doing more harm than good at this point.

yeah i'm not debating that first part at all. that's actually my point, that it's out of the hands of actual creators and all about investors and demographics and money. maybe i'm also jaded, because i've seen the actual intentions of writers etc which were genuine yuri subtext scrapped in favor of safe, deniable bait. it takes a lot especially in anime to convince me a work is sincere lately.

I'm generally not a fan of this sentiment myself, because in my opinion there's a lot of sincere media out there that's being made. Also that in my experience people look back at older media very fondly through the lens of nostalgia, while ignoring any problems, and saying basically no or very little modern media has any value. I see people say all the time that there's been no good music, anime, movies, books, tv, games, so on made in the last 20-30 years, and statements like that genuinely make me sad and frustrated, because I've seen passionate creators making fantastic media every year, including media that I'm personally not into but other people love. I believe there's always been a mix of things no matter the time, and it depends on where you look.

my statement on that was actually directly about the anime industry and how it's changed since the 90s/00s. there was a lot more experimental risky stuff coming out back then because people with money were more willing to fund it, but it's stagnated since then and become very "safe", which is why you never see original stuff anymore (vs adaptions of existing works). bee train couldn't exist now. simoun as well was a commercial failure, but at least it was made and completed. even well known things like lain and evangelion would never happen now. it's just a fact that the landscape has changed, imo for the worse, but it is what it is

it takes a lot especially in anime to convince me a work is sincere lately

&

my statement on that was actually directly about the anime industry and how it's changed since the 90s/00s. there was a lot more experimental risky stuff coming out back then because people with money were more willing to fund it, but it's stagnated since then and become very "safe", which is why you never see original stuff anymore (vs adaptions of existing works). bee train couldn't exist now. simoun as well was a commercial failure, but at least it was made and completed. even well known things like lain and evangelion would never happen now. it's just a fact that the landscape has changed, imo for the worse, but it is what it is

Yeah that's something we're just going to have to agree to disagree on. I can't agree with people like yourself that hate most modern anime and think good anime existed mainly in the 90s and earliest 2000s. Since while I do have frustrations with certain things there's a lot of modern anime that I genuinely have so much love for, including strange hidden gems, and I've seen passionate creators in the anime industry that genuinely love their work. While not everything is perfect I'm not totally jaded and bitter, and I refuse to write off the work of passionate creators that still exist and are creating wonderful series. Plus as I said there's various works such as GWitch that are being made today that wouldn't have been able to get made back in the 90s/early 2000s, including Bloom Into You and upcoming series such as Green Yuri that will hopefully be a home run. Anyhow, we may disagree but I wish you the best regardless.

"never see original stuff anymore"

Princess Principal
Train to the end of the world
Girls Band Cry
Jellyfish don't swim at night

And I don't keep up, this is just from a narrow sample.