Forum › Citrus + discussion

50d13a199dce85e34f5bbb7ccb4f798c
joined Jan 4, 2021

Bro Sayaka be looking like Tokaku from Akuma no Riddle lmao

50d13a199dce85e34f5bbb7ccb4f798c
joined Jan 4, 2021

Nene, you need to become a HaruMatsu shipper with the rest of us

50d13a199dce85e34f5bbb7ccb4f798c
joined Jan 4, 2021

Yoooo Matsuri just straight up kissed Harumin let's goooooo

50d13a199dce85e34f5bbb7ccb4f798c
joined Jan 4, 2021

Damn, looks like Mei lost the ring. Hopefully this gets resolved quickly because I want to see HaruMatsu development.

last edited at Jan 5, 2021 9:24AM

joined Jan 5, 2021

Does anyone one knows when will be the next update???????

Capture
joined Feb 8, 2019

Damn, looks like Mei lost the ring. Hopefully this gets resolved quickly because I want to see HaruMatsu development.

It feels like for 75% of the posters in this thread the reason to keep on reading is HaruMatsu - which is the only legit reason lol

last edited at Jan 5, 2021 5:22PM

joined Feb 14, 2019

Although the promotion of the anime might give people a different impression, Citrus is a romantic drama written for young women (primarily, at least)

Interesting... I've always wondered about Citrus' demographic. Just interested, how did you come to the conclusion? Is the Comic Yuri Hime mostly targeted at young women?

I could have sworn I'd seen it tagged as such, but the sources I checked don't seem to at the moment (except ebj below). I suppose Citrus has always "felt" very shoujo to me, so I filed it with things like Netsuzou Trap (at least Wikipedia does tag that one as shoujo).

In a niche like yuri I suspect a publication can't effort to be too specialized, but ebookjapan files Comic Yuri Hime related series under under shoujo/josei targeted manga so I guess it isn't totally in my head. (I also assume the now abandoned Comic Yuri Hime S male targeted spin-off was because they felt the original wasn't capturing that demographic).

Although the labeling division seems to run pretty deep in the Japanese industry, it isn't absolute, although often there is a recognizable shift in emphasis/tone. Citrus is also a bit tricky since it seems like the anime was targeted at a adult male demographic (I'd guess they are the ones with the money to burn on blurays and merch), sifting the direction and adding in fanservice.
It also overlaps with the author's gender and sexuality. I suppose it is one of those common cases in cultural dichotomies where although broad trends can be identified the spread of the choices is wider than the gap between them.

That said I usually feel like I can tell the difference: eg compare Citrus to Bloom into You (shounen targeted). Both are yuri written by women, but have quite different feels around gender and sexuality.

Capture
joined Feb 8, 2019

I could have sworn I'd seen it tagged as such, but the sources I checked don't seem to at the moment (except ebj below). I suppose Citrus has always "felt" very shoujo to me, so I filed it with things like Netsuzou Trap (at least Wikipedia does tag that one as shoujo). In a niche like yuri I suspect a publication can't effort to be too specialized, but ebookjapan files Comic Yuri Hime related series under under shoujo/josei targeted manga so I guess it isn't totally in my head. (I also assume the now abandoned Comic Yuri Hime S male targeted spin-off was because they felt the original wasn't capturing that demographic).

Thanks for the great reply! I know that in a niche like Yuri the categorizations are a bit more flexible than usual, but there is sometimes talk of seinen yuri or josei yuri etc. So I was always kinda curious where Citrus lands on that scale. Also funny that Netsuzou Trap would be filed under shoujo - how can (old-school) Naoko Kodama with the toxic relationship galore and Saburouta fit under the same roof? Haha

Although the labeling division seems to run pretty deep in the Japanese industry, it isn't absolute, although often there is a recognizable shift in emphasis/tone. Citrus is also a bit tricky since it seems like the anime was targeted at a adult male demographic (I'd guess they are the ones with the money to burn on blurays and merch), sifting the direction and adding in fanservice.

Lol as an adult male I actually found the anime less cringeworthy when I saw it compared to the manga, but this is obviously just my personal feelings and maybe in the few years or so between reading the first few chapters and seeing the anime I've just gotten more tolerant towards the bs. Saburouta's super-expressive faces just made those non-consensual scenes so intense. I actually instantly labeled the series as shonen/seinen due to the graphic non-consensual elements, but it seems that was just my own preconceptions at work, and the series did turn out to be very different in the end... I actually kinda liked the anime, but that's another story.

It also overlaps with the author's gender and sexuality. I suppose it is one of those common cases in cultural dichotomies where although broad trends can be identified the spread of the choices is wider than the gap between them.

Yeah, this is definitely one thing, but it's actually hard to for me to come up with a comparison since all Yuri I read/watch tends to be by female creators or based on their works. With the exception of Ikuhara Kunihiko maybe, but that's a pretty special case.

That said I usually feel like I can tell the difference: eg compare Citrus to Bloom into You (shounen targeted). Both are yuri written by women, but have quite different feels around gender and sexuality.

Yeah there is an obvious difference, but personally I've always felt that Bloom into You was just more mature - I was pretty surprised when I learned that it was published in a seinen magazine. Which isn't actually that surprising since I've understood that Yuri has been a relatively "regular" fixture in seinen for many years now. Anyway, I kinda just thought that BiY belonged into the same broad category as Citrus and they definitely did not target different genders, but now that you mention it there is a obvious difference in how straightforward Yuu and Touko are with their feelings compared to Yuzu and folks. In my culture (Northern Europe) it feels like a maturity and not a gender thing, but I guess it could be different in the Japanese cultural context. I guess Citrus does have a lot more of melodrama and all that swooning over the "epic first love" kind of thing, whereas in Bloom into You people everybody skipped the theatrics for the most part and just got straight down to business.

last edited at Jan 7, 2021 5:15PM

joined Jan 7, 2021

WHEN ARE MEI AND YUZU GONNA HAVE SEX
I’m dying to know it
Please Sabarouta don’t do this to me
I do not want to die. And not see this happen
It’s my last wish thank u
I’ve been reading citrus for many years reoccurringly
This couple is really all what I have
Please make it happen Sabarouta
Please reach this too Sabarouta
Thank u

last edited at Jan 7, 2021 5:35PM

joined Feb 14, 2019

Thanks for the great reply! I know that in a niche like Yuri the categorizations are a bit more flexible than usual, but there is sometimes talk of seinen yuri or josei yuri etc. So I was always kinda curious where Citrus lands on that scale. Also funny that Netsuzou Trap would be filed under shoujo - how can (old-school) Naoko Kodama with the toxic relationship galore and Saburouta fit under the same roof? Haha

We may have quite different images teenage girls and their tastes... in a Western context think things like Twilight, Pretty Little Liars and The Vampire Diaries. A fair proportion of teen girls love tangled angsty emotional melodrama, and don't mind "twisted" sexual themes - eg back to a Japanese context Vampire Knight is shoujo targeted featuring an ambiguously incestuous reverse harem/love triangle (and of course bear in mind that Yuzu herself is within the shoujo category and she reads explicit yuri, lol).

Although the labeling division seems to run pretty deep in the Japanese industry, it isn't absolute, although often there is a recognizable shift in emphasis/tone. Citrus is also a bit tricky since it seems like the anime was targeted at a adult male demographic (I'd guess they are the ones with the money to burn on blurays and merch), sifting the direction and adding in fanservice.

Lol as an adult male I actually found the anime less cringeworthy when I saw it compared to the manga, but this is obviously just my personal feelings and maybe in the few years or so between reading the first few chapters and seeing the anime I've just gotten more tolerant towards the bs. Saburouta's super-expressive faces just made those non-consensual scenes so intense. I actually instantly labeled the series as shonen/seinen due to the graphic non-consensual elements, but it seems that was just my own preconceptions at work, and the series did turn out to be very different in the end... I actually kinda liked the anime, but that's another story.

For me the clear emotions actually reduced the impact - eg in that first kiss it was clear that Mei was hurting, not aggressive/malicious, and that Yuzu was just shocked, not hurt or frightened. The way the anime handled it, with protracted struggling and Mei looming over her was outright menacing and much more "rapey" than the manga.

It also overlaps with the author's gender and sexuality. I suppose it is one of those common cases in cultural dichotomies where although broad trends can be identified the spread of the choices is wider than the gap between them.

Yeah, this is definitely one thing, but it's actually hard to for me to come up with a comparison since all Yuri I read/watch tends to be by female creators or based on their works. With the exception of Ikuhara Kunihiko maybe, but that's a pretty special case.

I can't think of any male authored fully yuri series atm (probably just a mental block) but off the top of my head a few popular series with female casts (and some yuri elements), but written for men by men: K-ON! (manga, the anime was re-targeted to women with a largely female creative team), New Game!, Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid.

re Ikuhara Kunihiko probably should note that Sailor Moon, Utena and Yurikuma were all either based on works by women, or developed in collaboration with women so can't really be seen as male created.

For seinen targeted titles (but written by women) I guess I'd think of Sakura Trick and YuruYuri (YuruYuri is a bit ambiguous; it is in Comic Yuri Hime now, but was originally picked up by Comic Yuri Hime S male targeted sister publication); Probably not entirely fair to compare light comedy with romance/drama; I'm sure there are better examples, but those are ones I can think of right now that I know and actually like.

That said I usually feel like I can tell the difference: eg compare Citrus to Bloom into You (shounen targeted). Both are yuri written by women, but have quite different feels around gender and sexuality.

Yeah there is an obvious difference, but personally I've always felt that Bloom into You was just more mature - I was pretty surprised when I learned that it was published in a seinen magazine. Which isn't actually that surprising since I've understood that Yuri has been a relatively "regular" fixture in seinen for many years now. Anyway, I kinda just thought that BiY belonged into the same broad category as Citrus and they definitely did not target different genders, but now that you mention it there is a obvious difference in how straightforward Yuu and Touko are with their feelings compared to Yuzu and folks. In my culture (Northern Europe) it feels like a maturity and not a gender thing, but I guess it could be different in the Japanese cultural context. I guess Citrus does have a lot more of melodrama and all that swooning over the "epic first love" kind of thing, whereas in Bloom into You people everybody skipped the theatrics for the most part and just got straight down to business.

Just as gut reaction I would actually have put yagakimi as less mature (but mature is a multifaceted thing), ironically in large part because of the very simple emotional landscape. Emotions tend to get more complex and conflicted as we get older (even if we do eventually learn to restrain them most of the time).

When I gave that example I was actually thinking of the gender divide - shounen vs shoujo. In Yagakimi there is very little sense of gender around the MC's identity and circumstances, Touko and even more so Yuu, could just as easily be male. Even the question of sexuality is mostly addressed though supporting characters. It is very accessible to (het) male readers, and the characters although nominally female are very easy for them to identify with.

Contrast Yuzu, checking out the hot male teacher (even fantasizing a little, and trying to get his contact info) in chapter one, classic teen girl move but might make men/boys cringe. Yuzu expresses herself though clothes, appearance and socializing; she's driven by her emotions and centers much of her identity and motivation in her social connections and caring for the people around her. Whether you attribute it to social constructs or innate gender difference, there is no doubt that in general fully identifying with Yuzu is going to be more of a stretch for male readers than (teen) female ones (compounded that Citrus is Yuzu pov more strongly than yagakimi is Yuu pov).

Citrus is sexy, but those moments are mostly based on emotion and mutual desire, and even where there are revealing clothes/nudity there is very little sense of pandering to the "male gaze" (more significant in comparison to seinen than to yagakimi). Manga anyway, there was definitely some male gaze going on in the anime and especially the anime promotion. Mostly to say that even if male readers find citrus sexy, it isn't based on content that female readership would find off-putting.

Finally whether we put it down to social or innate, also tend to get more emotional drama in media targeted to a female audience (while stereotypical males are supposed to be uncomfortable with it).

It is a bit off on a tangent, but if you want to look at something with a really strong theme of gender and sexual identity, Hanjuku Joshi (by Morishima Akiko) is an interesting read.

Capture
joined Feb 8, 2019

circamoore

Yeah, I get what you are saying and it's an interesting thing to philosophize about. And you make a good point about Twilight and stuff which are perceived to "put the stereotypical male reader off". Personally I also feel that emotions do get more complicated as we get older, but also more subdued in a way - in that sense melodrama indeed does "fit" better with a younger audience.

Now I'm not an expert on shoujo by any means, but in the case of Citrus most of the complexity just feels like bad writing and unnecessary convoluting of the story by the author due to a lack of good ideas how to drive the story forward. Whereas I actually think there was a lot of depth in BiY, but not all of it was related to the main romantic plot, and it was in my opinion written a lot better and, yes, maybe also for an older audience since it was in a seinen magazine. (I don't think Yuri in shonen is actually a thing, except for fanservice purposes) But that's beside the point.

Anyway, there definitely are a lot of very "girly" elements in Citrus like checking out guys in the beginning, though that is pretty quickly dropped as the story progresses (and surprisingly none of the supporting cast ever express any interest in boys). I guess these are the things which I find hard to analyze spontaneously, because I've always identified strongly with fictional characters no matter their background - I mean, obviously I'd check out any hot male teachers out there if I was Yuzu, lol.

I haven't actually managed to read Hanjuku Joshi just yet, although it's been on my radar for many years already.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

in the case of Citrus most of the complexity just feels like bad writing and unnecessary convoluting of the story by the author due to a lack of good ideas how to drive the story forward.

You are by no means alone in that fairly obvious evaluation.

joined Feb 14, 2019

Now I'm not an expert on shoujo by any means, but in the case of Citrus most of the complexity just feels like bad writing and unnecessary convoluting of the story by the author due to a lack of good ideas how to drive the story forward. Whereas I actually think there was a lot of depth in BiY, but not all of it was related to the main romantic plot, and it was in my opinion written a lot better and, yes, maybe also for an older audience since it was in a seinen magazine. (I don't think Yuri in shonen is actually a thing, except for fanservice purposes) But that's beside the point.

I know it isn't your impression, but yagakimi/BiY is shounen; all the sources I checked tagged it as such, and it even has comprehensive furigana in the Japanese version (reading guide to kanji, and on all kanji not just unusual/obscure stuff) - a strong indication of a younger audience that isn't fluent reading kanji.

My impression was actually that shounen yuri was milder, and in many cases was more for a "safe" (non-threatening to masculinity) way to explore the softer side of romance and relationships than titillation.

46-75
joined Jun 25, 2019

Now I'm not an expert on shoujo by any means, but in the case of Citrus most of the complexity just feels like bad writing and unnecessary convoluting of the story by the author due to a lack of good ideas how to drive the story forward. Whereas I actually think there was a lot of depth in BiY, but not all of it was related to the main romantic plot, and it was in my opinion written a lot better and, yes, maybe also for an older audience since it was in a seinen magazine. (I don't think Yuri in shonen is actually a thing, except for fanservice purposes) But that's beside the point.

I know it isn't your impression, but yagakimi/BiY is shounen; all the sources I checked tagged it as such, and it even has comprehensive furigana in the Japanese version (reading guide to kanji, and on all kanji not just unusual/obscure stuff) - a strong indication of a younger audience that isn't fluent reading kanji.

My impression was actually that shounen yuri was milder, and in many cases was more for a "safe" (non-threatening to masculinity) way to explore the softer side of romance and relationships than titillation.

I believe YagaKimi was shounen soly because it was published in a Shounen magazine.

joined Feb 14, 2019

Pretty sure I don't even need to quote anyone to stir up this thread...

I was looking around for Saburouta interviews and found one where she was specifically asked if she had the Citrus story planned out. The answer: Yes, she had a clear vision of how the story would end.

A translation of the interview was conveniently posted on this site in Dec 2016 by Dark_Tzitzimine: https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/posts/240644
(or on chaosteam fb: https://www.facebook.com/Chaosteam/posts/210351496085319 )

I couldn't find mention of the date of the original interview, but late 2016 is around the time chapter 24 was published (Yuzu giving Mei the ring), which seems consistent with my theory that groundwork was being laid (Manager introduced) for the engagement plot even that far back (the interview also talks about upcoming release of volume 5, but I think that might mean the German edition).

People interested in Saburouta interviews could also check out this (another from 2016): https://www.facebook.com/Chaosteam/posts/197370310716771

joined Jul 26, 2016

I was looking around for Saburouta interviews and found one where she was specifically asked if she had the Citrus story planned out. The answer: Yes, she had a clear vision of how the story would end.

If so one can only conclude both the planning and the execution were handled with quite astonishing ineptitude and clumsiness and there's cause to suspect she plum forgot about that grand plan for a decent stretch of time.

Which isn't exactly implausible given what sorts of gaffes much more accomplished writers have sheepishly owed up to even in the context of purely written works.

50d13a199dce85e34f5bbb7ccb4f798c
joined Jan 4, 2021

I was looking around for Saburouta interviews and found one where she was specifically asked if she had the Citrus story planned out. The answer: Yes, she had a clear vision of how the story would end.

If so one can only conclude both the planning and the execution were handled with quite astonishing ineptitude and clumsiness and there's cause to suspect she plum forgot about that grand plan for a decent stretch of time.

Which isn't exactly implausible given what sorts of gaffes much more accomplished writers have sheepishly owed up to even in the context of purely written works.

I agree. The engagement felt like it was shoehorned in, which is my main gripe about the OG Ctirus.

joined Feb 14, 2019

I was looking around for Saburouta interviews and found one where she was specifically asked if she had the Citrus story planned out. The answer: Yes, she had a clear vision of how the story would end.

If so one can only conclude both the planning and the execution were handled with quite astonishing ineptitude and clumsiness and there's cause to suspect she plum forgot about that grand plan for a decent stretch of time.

Which isn't exactly implausible given what sorts of gaffes much more accomplished writers have sheepishly owed up to even in the context of purely written works.

I'd almost convinced myself to let this lie, but it seems I'm a hopeless case. I should preface this by saying that I definitely don't think that the writing is perfect, it definitely has flaws, I just don't think they are as extensive and fundamental as many criticisms suggest.

My understanding of the plot/spec is that we have to girls with clashing personalities and cultural backgrounds, some over-dramatic back and forth/misunderstandings (genre obligatory), progressively fall deeply in love, separated by (mispaced-) sense of duty (a romantic drama mainstay), angst, dramatic race-to-the-airport and leap of faith conclusion (again a mainstay). (and all for a genre/audience where drama turned up to 11 is the default setting, and emotional roller-coaster, ups and downs, is a positive selling point).

afaics aside from a little bit of fillerish stuff all chapters fall in supporting this plot, with nothing outright contradictory and no large orphan elements. which begs the question: what is the specification you are using that it is failing to meet?

Not understanding Mei's decision, that she appeared to somehow reject Yuzu, seems to come up a lot, and I think that has to do with context - Mei is female, Asian and from a very old-fashioned conservative background - all three of those things compound to tell her that not only does she have a role to play in life, but that she doesn't get to write the script. I'd guess that most critics aren't even one of those three; it is fair enough to say it is a failure of imagination not to think she could have both Yuzu and her family/school role, but it also a reflection of privilege to think such an option is automatic and self-evident.

Thinking about this, trying to get a bit deeper into Mei's pov, I realized the conclusion is rather clever - in a way the engagement affair is one last miscommunication, similar to the previous ones. For Yuzu (and many readers) a declaration of love is an implicit commitment and even a beacon of stability, but for Mei it is uncertainty - it doesn't fit into the her world, all she knows is her limited and rather bumpy experience with Yuzu. Yuzu proposing marriage wasn't just over-confidence, it also finally put her case into a form Mei could recognize, a practical mutually supportive partnership for life, something with a future attached. Instead of tearing up Mei's world view and plans, she just substituted herself into it, giving Mei an option she could easily imagine.. and compare. Reduced to a simple question of Yuzu vs not Yuzu the odds were stacked in her favour. We know that marriage was essentially what Yuzu was thinking from the outset, but she didn't explain that to Mei (until the end), and we are seeing in Citrus+ that Mei is taking the marriage and partnership aspects very seriously.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

So, critics fail to perceive the coherence of the story and the consistency of its characterizations because they’re not Asian, not female, not conservative.

Critics also fail to understand the way the story is deeply rooted in Japanese cultural conventions about arranged marriage even though the resolution of the story is the Aihara family—highly conservative, deeply traditional, so Japanese-that-Western-readers-fail-to-understand-the-story—staging a big full-scale lesbian white wedding which is so far removed from anything in actual Japanese culture as to be beyond fantasy.

Duly noted.

Ykn1
joined Dec 20, 2018

Thinking about it, I don't really doubt that Saburouta did in fact have the ending itself planned out, but I still suspect the story fell victim to its own popularity and got stretched out again and again by adding new entirely unnecessary arcs that eventually turned it into the mess it ended up as.

Capture
joined Feb 8, 2019

Thinking about it, I don't really doubt that Saburouta did in fact have the ending itself planned out, but I still suspect the story fell victim to its own popularity and got stretched out again and again by adding new entirely unnecessary arcs that eventually turned it into the mess it ended up as.

This is obviously what happened - if the series had been less popular, the manga would have probably ended up being better since there would have been less space for unnecessary filler...

even though the resolution of the story is the Aihara family—highly conservative, deeply traditional, so Japanese-that-Western-readers-fail-to-understand-the-story—staging a big full-scale lesbian white wedding which is so far removed from anything in actual Japanese culture as to be beyond fantasy.

Maybe one day this will happen... Maybe in 100 years or 200 years...

50d13a199dce85e34f5bbb7ccb4f798c
joined Jan 4, 2021

So, critics fail to perceive the coherence of the story and the consistency of its characterizations because they’re not Asian, not female, not conservative.

Critics also fail to understand the way the story is deeply rooted in Japanese cultural conventions about arranged marriage even though the resolution of the story is the Aihara family—highly conservative, deeply traditional, so Japanese-that-Western-readers-fail-to-understand-the-story—staging a big full-scale lesbian white wedding which is so far removed from anything in actual Japanese culture as to be beyond fantasy.

Duly noted.

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Citrus. The drama is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of Japanese culture most of the drama will go over a typical reader's head. There's also Mei's cold exterior, which is deftly woven into her characterisation- her personal conflict draws heavily from Japanese literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these things, to realise that they're not just cultural- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Citrus truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the significance in Mei's existential words "...," which itself is a cryptic reference to conservative Asian females. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Saburouta's genius wit unfolds itself on their manga pages. What fools.. how I pity them.
And yes, by the way, i DO have a Citrus tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the conservative Asian ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid

last edited at Jan 10, 2021 10:24AM

Ykn1
joined Dec 20, 2018

^Please tell me that's sarcasm... It positively reeks of sarcasm, but it's sometimes pretty hard to tell these days, even with a very high IQ.

Img_0215
joined Jul 29, 2017

Thinking about it, I don't really doubt that Saburouta did in fact have the ending itself planned out, but I still suspect the story fell victim to its own popularity and got stretched out again and again by adding new entirely unnecessary arcs that eventually turned it into the mess it ended up as.

Sure—I’m under the strong impression that Saburouta told us fairly early on, “Mei & Yuzu: happy ending.”

That foreknowledge actually fed into people’s doubts about the competence of the writing as the series went on, since it became increasingly apparent that the author did not have much of an idea of how to logically and plausibly get from “lesbian stepsisters with the hots for each other” to “happily ever after” via “traditional high-class Japanese family academy.”

So as the plot wandered and obstacles to a happy ending either piled up (arranged marriage) or went unaddressed (lesbian stepsisters) the question “how is the author going to resolve this?” (which was central to the series from the start because “lesbian stepsisters”) became more and more pointed.

The answer was a single page of silent panels that explained, “yadda yadda yadda.”

last edited at Jan 10, 2021 12:00PM

46-75
joined Jun 25, 2019

^Please tell me that's sarcasm... It positively reeks of sarcasm, but it's sometimes pretty hard to tell these days, even with a very high IQ.

Can't believe i had to link this here It's just a parody of a copypasta on RIck and Morty

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