Honestly I think leaning into what counts as masculine behavior for a new tag is unhelpful. Once you get past childhood, the difference isn't very dramatic. I mean, feminine girls can be good at sports, and in fact that is what most sports manga about girls are.

I think what we need is some way of masculine looking characters being identified regardless of age or behavior. I guess it could be, if they don't have the behavior to fit into Tomboy, they go into this tag instead. Of course, I'm speaking from what I want. I am feeling sad that there's potentially a lot of manga about masculine looking women floating around that I'm not seeing. The question is whether just short hair is enough and where you draw that line. I don't know that "I know it when I see it" is adequate.

For the time being I can't help but feel as though I'm sort've beating around the crux of the issues here but I do appreciate all the feedback and will add it to my notes for another look later.

Nevri posted:

I guess we could go with general Tomboy for both looks and personality while Butch could only apply to personality? Sounds like best compromise. We could add Handsome lady or maybe just Handsome on top of that separately, while we're at it. And then Short hair could be simply for short hair.

One day, maybe in 2024, we're going to have collapsible tag inheritance. And something like this will not just be encouraged, but completely normal. For now though, I would tend to lean towards fewer redundant tags than many specific ones.

axelmania posted:

Honestly I think leaning into what counts as masculine behavior for a new tag is unhelpful. Once you get past childhood, the difference isn't very dramatic. I mean, feminine girls can be good at sports, and in fact that is what most sports manga about girls are.

This is a valid concern, and is about 30% of the reason we haven't made any serious headway on this yet. To also expand on a bit of what Blastaar said, I tried to reformulate this in my mind where "masculine behaviour" could be tagged uniquely without having a lot of overlap. Outside of these traits:

• the "prince" figure, who sometimes embraces that role or sometimes has been forced into it just because of their looks and physique

• the sporty gamine girls (closest to the classic "tomboy," I guess) who are often associated with specifically childhood masculine behavior (the ones who aren't afraid of bugs and who are always getting dirty, etc.).

I would tend to find that Delinquent and Sports should cover most other "masculine behaviour" that is common enough to be worth tagging here. (though, I'm not sure if yuri really has many "sporty gamine girls" either and all of this is subject to change as we get more Chinese / Korean works hosted)

I think what we need is some way of masculine looking characters being identified regardless of age or behavior. I guess it could be, if they don't have the behavior to fit into Tomboy, they go into this tag instead. Of course, I'm speaking from what I want...The question is whether just short hair is enough and where you draw that line. I don't know that "I know it when I see it" is adequate.

First off, I'm fully against "know it when I see it" tags, and one of the more active site projects at the moment is to fill in the gaps of tag descriptions here. Secondly, I'm completely open to any suggestions, so speaking directly about your own desires is most helpful to me. Lastly, Short hair as a tag is too vague and applies to so much of the site that it is probably not a very useful tag in the most broad sense. I think we would most likely seek to limit it to hair length above the cheek; or try to pair it with some other characteristics to make it viable enough for use.

I am feeling sad that there's potentially a lot of manga about masculine looking women floating around that I'm not seeing.

I get that. Anything released post-2016 probably has the type of tagging you want, and I don't believe many truly masculine-looking characters would go without the tag entirely.

last edited at Jan 13, 2022 1:07AM

I'm not sure if yuri really has many "sporty gamine girls" either.

I think you might be surprised at how many “catches frogs, protects the girly MC” characters show up, at least in flashbacks. Whether they would all be worth tagging is another matter, of course.

I'm not sure if yuri really has many "sporty gamine girls" either.

That's because theses little runts evolves into the "Cool Schoolgirl" at level 14. (or the "Ace school athlete", if they level up while holding the item "sport accessory".

I'm not sure if yuri really has many "sporty gamine girls" either.

That's because theses little runts evolves into the "Cool Schoolgirl" at level 14. (or the "Ace school athlete", if they level up while holding the item "sport accessory".

Thanks for reminding me of the adorable Yuxuan in the the adorable Pink Ribbon, who gets the “Tomboy” tag and is indeed a sporty runt, but otherwise messes with the trope in multiple ways.

I'm a little surprised this hasn't come up, but while having short hair might be indicative of a tomboy it isn't required and is not part of the western definition of the word. It being a western concept seems to be a big part of the problem in using it to categorize Japanese media/tropes. (This might be a bit incorrect, however, seeing as two of the biggest figures in yuri, Oscar from Rose of Versailles and Utena from Revolutionary Girl Utena are both long-haired tomboys.)

Anyway, should we tag tomboys with long hair, such as the alt rock girl in My New Friend Wasn't What I Expected? Is the tag meant to follow western usage (where physical traits are not required), or is it a rough equivalence meant to capture the Japanese usages listed in this thread?

A Japanese umbrella term for everything listed above, including butch, prince, and ikemen women is, as I understand it, "boyish." Examples can all be seen in the Boyish² yuri anthology.

last edited at Jun 19, 2023 2:46PM

I haven't made any verification, but I think I recall I have seen long-haired character tagged as tomboy when they had the other characteristics, and short-haired but otherwise feminine women not getting the tag.

I don't get why you don't just rename the whole tag Butch and be done with it. I really don't see the point in differentiating it. Tomboy in general is kind of derogatory imo, it implies their masculinity is just a childish trait they'll grow out of. It's also not a word I think I've ever seen used on someone over the age of like, 13? So it feels very immature to me. Just say butch, it's so much easier.

I don't get why you don't just rename the whole tag Butch and be done with it. I really don't see the point in differentiating it. Tomboy in general is kind of derogatory imo, it implies their masculinity is just a childish trait they'll grow out of. It's also not a word I think I've ever seen used on someone over the age of like, 13? So it feels very immature to me. Just say butch, it's so much easier.

However it may feel to you, there can be a significant difference between women who present as “butch” and those who present as “tomboys.” And I’ve commonly seen “tomboy” applied to grown women, often by themselves.

A “butch” tag would be especially inappropriate for the quite common yuri trope of the girl who physically is boyish (often dressing as a “prince” type) but who secretly is attracted to cute things or to girly fashion.

I don't get why you don't just rename the whole tag Butch and be done with it. I really don't see the point in differentiating it. Tomboy in general is kind of derogatory imo, it implies their masculinity is just a childish trait they'll grow out of. It's also not a word I think I've ever seen used on someone over the age of like, 13? So it feels very immature to me. Just say butch, it's so much easier.

However it may feel to you, there can be a significant difference between women who present as “butch” and those who present as “tomboys.” And I’ve commonly seen “tomboy” applied to grown women, often by themselves.

A “butch” tag would be especially inappropriate for the quite common yuri trope of the girl who physically is boyish (often dressing as a “prince” type) but who secretly is attracted to cute things or to girly fashion.

Yeah I don't think tomboy = butch. I also don't think tomboy is an inherently derogatory term, as I've heard it used positively by a variety of ages as well.

I don't get why you don't just rename the whole tag Butch and be done with it. I really don't see the point in differentiating it. Tomboy in general is kind of derogatory imo, it implies their masculinity is just a childish trait they'll grow out of. It's also not a word I think I've ever seen used on someone over the age of like, 13? So it feels very immature to me. Just say butch, it's so much easier.

Tomboy and butch aren't the same thing.

Tomboy is basically a girl (or a woman) who doesn't behave according to what's expected of a girl, basically "boyish". And it isn't a derogatory term, it depends on who's using it.

Butch is a woman (or nb) who's perceived as masculine, it's a subculture thing, a lesbian identity (although I've seen some people use to refer to women who are not necessarily lesbians but are attracted to women or people who don't identify as a woman (non-binary folks)), while tomboy isn't.

last edited at Oct 25, 2024 4:45AM

Slightly divergent from this topic is the question of whether there ought to be a Prince tag, since that is a pretty common yuri trope. Often one of my favorites, too, as in Morinaga Milk’s Secret of the Princess, which has two of them.

Although that might raise the further question (as I suggested above) of the possible Reluctant Prince tag—I just happened across another example in the series Prince Prince by Aoto Hibiki—not to mention potential confusion with stories that contain kings, queens, and, you know, princes.