Was that call at the end supposed to be from Botan or what?
Kind of a disappointing end in my opinion.

Just wanted to say that Kasumi is the character I liked most in the whole manga. I totally understand her saying she prefers Kashima staying male or wanting to have kids and all. The thing what I had problems with were the words "If you had the surgery we'll eventually have to break up." It may sound naive but I believe if you really love someone you would stay together with that person even if he/she had a sex change. In that way I really find what Kasumi said later on to Kashima in the diner that much more satisfying.

Kasumi is the only really good character, I also like Botan and Kashiwa but they could had been better, if possible I would punch everyone in the face except Kasumi, and kill Uozumi and that guy that hit Botan, two of the most worthless and horrible male characters that I had ever seen.

And yes, your english was more than good enough. I was born in America and mine isn't nearly that good :x

Thanks, I always wonder if my english will be good enough or if it will end up a confusing mess, it don't help that I'm always in a perpetual state of sleepness, usually sleep only 4 to 6 hours per day, so when I post something I always wonder if I really did write something and not some crazy mix of words because I'm not conscious enough...

Was that call at the end supposed to be from Botan or what?
Kind of a disappointing end in my opinion.

Well, it could have been a lot better, although it is a little vague it's kind of a good end, Kashiwa and Kasumi are still a couple, the call could only be from Botan so they are stil a family and she will not disappear like their father (who else would make they have that reaction?), I just didn't like that Sakura ended up with Uozumi, I hate that guy.
They should had made a epilogue, or at least an extra chapter, a little disapointing but there mangas with worst endings, when they even have a ending, for those who think that end is bad, it would had been a lot worse if Kashiwa ended up with Uozomi....

I still don't like Botan, and still think she deserve a punch in the face.

I means firstly, she was having an affair, she have to be responsible for it once it got out, no way around it. Blame and punish a 12 years old kid who follow her and accidentally blurt it out is just blaming others for her own mess. Especially when that kid is her sister, who clearly has been financially dependant on her.

Secondly, her 3 sisters , true were taking the high moral course. But it is because they were worried for her, especially against an (to them) abusive violent older boss. Honestly that could have been something much much worse than a consensual affair there. Workplace sexual harassment. Forced intercourse. Gang rape. Even blackmailing with her physical safety, job and family finance on the line. In another manga, Botan could be the one who was secretly crying for help with all those hints, but so badly terrorized by her abuser(s) that she's too afraid to get the words out. Kashiwa looking for help from Ouzumi to protect them for the confrontation clearly was indicating their thought. Of course the sisters didn't approach that properly, but they had little choice really as Botan was hiding from them.

Botan was just using that event as an excuse to rid off her burdened sister, while the mature way would have to explain to them and had them helping out like Kashiwa did. In fact she seemed to blame her sisters for the shitty love live that she was in. Would she also throw up tantrum if she met a male version of Kasumi instead (thank to her not going to college) and was having a happy love live? Doubt it

last edited at Feb 19, 2015 12:40AM

I remember reading somewhere, possibly here on Dynasty, that Kyou Kara Yonshimai was a drop in quality compared to Ebisu-san and Hotei-san, I had a look in the other mangas from Satou Nanki, there there are only five of his mangas translated, Ichigo no Gakkou (2007), Megane x Parfait! (2007), Usotsuki Paradox (2009), Ebisu-san to Hotei-san (2010) and Kyou Kara Yonshimai (2013), It's just my opinion but from what I read it's more likely that in Ebisu-san and Hotei-san is where the quality had gone up, and in Kyou Kara Yonshimai the quality dropped to the same of his previous works.

I totally agree, I don't know about the others but Usotsuki Paradox was far worst than this one. Actually I don't hate Kyou Kara Yonshimai, it's not that bad. Ebisu-san to Hotei-San must have been an exception

I guess this was a happy ending to it.
Whenever I try to picture myself in their family, I feel like I would have killed myself early on (mostly if I was Botan). They have it rough and they still managed to be happy and loving to each other.

I'm really happy Kasumi came around. I really enjoyed her character.

6.5/10

I remember reading somewhere, possibly here on Dynasty, that Kyou Kara Yonshimai was a drop in quality compared to Ebisu-san and Hotei-san, I had a look in the other mangas from Satou Nanki, there there are only five of his mangas translated, Ichigo no Gakkou (2007), Megane x Parfait! (2007), Usotsuki Paradox (2009), Ebisu-san to Hotei-san (2010) and Kyou Kara Yonshimai (2013), It's just my opinion but from what I read it's more likely that in Ebisu-san and Hotei-san is where the quality had gone up, and in Kyou Kara Yonshimai the quality dropped to the same of his previous works.

I totally agree, I don't know about the others but Usotsuki Paradox was far worst than this one. Actually I don't hate Kyou Kara Yonshimai, it's not that bad. Ebisu-san to Hotei-San must have been an exception

It's annoying that Usotsuki Paradox is 10 volumes and apparently as a conclusive ending, Kyou Kara Yonshimai could easily had one more volume, one chapter would have been enough to give it a better ending, well Kashiwa and Kasumi are still togheter, so can't really complain much as there was risk of Kashiwa ending up with Uozumi....

What a manga. Strange and ironic that I only took notice of it just now, at the end. So many things I've thought and feelings I've felt, but it's merely the flicker of embers beneath the ashes to me now. As Schala wrote in her reflections at the end of a different story, "All that is left is me and my memories."

I feel for Botan, and I empathize with everything she did. Both Botan and her lover were fulfilling their obligations. She was supporting her family, the one she never asked to be the surrogate mother of, and her lover was supporting his. Many times, people have to make the best of the situations they find their lives to have settled into. She was doing so, and had been for many years. Her reaction to having that tiny bit of happiness destroyed is perfectly understandable.

So, I think it's best we don't talk about "moral responsibility"...because truthfully, I would say that given Kashiwa's situation, and the expectations and obligations it involves, the "moral" thing to be doing is quite different from the direction of the resolution the story gave to us. That too is understandable, though. In both cases, the "moral" thing is not what's being looked toward to give them happiness as human beings. It very often isn't, I think.

On a different note, Kizuki Akira and Satou Nanki are a married manga team, it seems? One wonders if a love of huge breasts is equally shared between them, haha.

Thank you for an interesting and evocative read, Hachimitsu.

last edited at Feb 19, 2015 9:03AM

So, I think it's best we don't talk about "moral responsibility"...because truthfully, I would say that given Kashiwa's situation, and the expectations and obligations it involves, the "moral" thing to be doing is quite different from the direction of the resolution the story gave to us. That too is understandable, though. In both cases, the "moral" thing is not what's being looked toward to give them happiness as human beings. It very often isn't, I think.

Wait...so what should be the so-called "moral" thing for Kashiwa to do? You're not clear on this point at all.

So, I think it's best we don't talk about "moral responsibility"...because truthfully, I would say that given Kashiwa's situation, and the expectations and obligations it involves, the "moral" thing to be doing is quite different from the direction of the resolution the story gave to us. That too is understandable, though. In both cases, the "moral" thing is not what's being looked toward to give them happiness as human beings. It very often isn't, I think.

Wait...so what should be the so-called "moral" thing for Kashiwa to do? You're not clear on this point at all.

I don't know about the moral thing , but if Kasumi wanted to have children then why not have them before Kashiwa transitions. Would this not satisfy having a biological child with the one you love . By the time Kashiwa saves up the money to have the surgery , they could have two or three kids , and in that time frame Kashiwa could further evaluate whether or not to continue to transition . My little brother was like that , he wanted to be a girl , but once he had two children he somehow became satisfied with how he is, although he could have just decided to suppress his desire to be female . I will never know . I am sad to see this finish like this :(

So, I think it's best we don't talk about "moral responsibility"...because truthfully, I would say that given Kashiwa's situation, and the expectations and obligations it involves, the "moral" thing to be doing is quite different from the direction of the resolution the story gave to us. That too is understandable, though. In both cases, the "moral" thing is not what's being looked toward to give them happiness as human beings. It very often isn't, I think.

Wait...so what should be the so-called "moral" thing for Kashiwa to do? You're not clear on this point at all.

I don't know about the moral thing , but if Kasumi wanted to have children then why not have them before Kashiwa transitions. Would this not satisfy having a biological child with the one you love . By the time Kashiwa saves up the money to have the surgery , they could have two or three kids , and in that time frame Kashiwa could further evaluate whether or not to continue to transition .

Wut.

You think she 1) doesn't know for sure she wants to transition and hasn't thought hard about it despite her conviction in the last chapter, and 2) could somehow still afford to support two or three (or even one) child while also acting as primary support for her two sisters now that Botan's gone? Aside from which, she seemed very conflicted about having sex with her current genital configuration in the flashback so you're suggesting the "moral" thing to do is put herself through distress in several ways to make Kasumi happy. Indeed, I question whether even Kasumi would accept that as viable.

My little brother was like that , he wanted to be a girl , but once he had two children he somehow became satisfied with how he is, although he could have just decided to suppress his desire to be female . I will never know . I am sad to see this finish like this :(

I can't help but think these are very different situations. It also smacks heavily of "it's just a phase" which can be pretty awful.

Time for my two cents (err, two comments) from the peanut gallery.

First, I doubt anyone seriously considers that surgery without thinking long and hard about it. And denying the surgery, or even postponing it longer than necessary, can be very destructive to that person's mental well being. If they lose hope, it can even be fatal. (The same thing happens if someone receives the surgery who shouldn't have, so it's serious business.)

Second, the "moral" thing to do (at least according to others) is almost always to sacrifice yourself for the "good" of others. That doesn't sound very moral to me, and so I tend to get suspicious when people moralize. Now I'll moralize; I think a person should try hard to take into account how there actions affect others, but I don't think anyone should be expected to sacrifice themselves or what's most precious to them for the good of others.

Edit: I've picked up the impression that that surgery has only been legal in Japan for a few years now.

Edit 2: While nosing around trying to confirm that (which I failed to do), I came across the tidbit that a person cannot have their sex legally changed in Japan unless they are both unmarried and with no minor children. (Wait to have some children first? Well, she could still get the surgery, she would just have to remain legally male.)

last edited at Feb 19, 2015 3:40PM

Edit 2: While nosing around trying to confirm that (which I failed to do), I came across the tidbit that a person cannot have their sex legally changed in Japan unless they are both unmarried and with no minor children. (Wait to have some children first? Well, she could still get the surgery, she would just have to remain legally male.)

Well heck, even in North America there are places (or at least had the requirement until very recently) that won't allow surgery for a married person unless they divorce first. That used to be one of the requirements in my part of Canada, but that's changed in recent years.

Heck, most Provinces, and from what I gather States as well, won't allow the birth certificate marker, from which most other ID derives, unless surgery was completed, and some don't even allow it with surgery. There are a couple of Provinces within the past year or two who have started doing such changes without surgery, but it's slow in coming.

Note that such things can make accessing services and passing background checks for jobs and living arrangements difficult. So it's an important issue. Even things like cross-border travel can be difficult or even dangerous if your presentation does not match your ID. I can't imagine it's any easier in Japan.

So, I think it's best we don't talk about "moral responsibility"...because truthfully, I would say that given Kashiwa's situation, and the expectations and obligations it involves, the "moral" thing to be doing is quite different from the direction of the resolution the story gave to us. That too is understandable, though. In both cases, the "moral" thing is not what's being looked toward to give them happiness as human beings. It very often isn't, I think.

Wait...so what should be the so-called "moral" thing for Kashiwa to do? You're not clear on this point at all.

I don't know about the moral thing , but if Kasumi wanted to have children then why not have them before Kashiwa transitions. Would this not satisfy having a biological child with the one you love . By the time Kashiwa saves up the money to have the surgery , they could have two or three kids , and in that time frame Kashiwa could further evaluate whether or not to continue to transition .

Wut.

You think she 1) doesn't know for sure she wants to transition and hasn't thought hard about it despite her conviction in the last chapter, and 2) could somehow still afford to support two or three (or even one) child while also acting as primary support for her two sisters now that Botan's gone? Aside from which, she seemed very conflicted about having sex with her current genital configuration in the flashback so you're suggesting the "moral" thing to do is put herself through distress in several ways to make Kasumi happy. Indeed, I question whether even Kasumi would accept that as viable.

My little brother was like that , he wanted to be a girl , but once he had two children he somehow became satisfied with how he is, although he could have just decided to suppress his desire to be female . I will never know . I am sad to see this finish like this :(

I can't help but think these are very different situations. It also smacks heavily of "it's just a phase" which can be pretty awful.

You might be right, but it all depends upon who and what the person is willing to shoulder , each persons level of handling stress is different.
As for my brother , and it being a phase , I couldn't really know for sure as i have never brought it up after we moved from our parents home. I did figure he was content on being male now due to having kids and being married, but for all I know he could still have that desire deep down . I will say that he does let on by the way he dresses daily lol (very flamboyant) but that could just be my own thinking , I know he isn't gay because he has always liked women, so I do wonder sometimes.

You might be right, but it all depends upon who and what the person is willing to shoulder , each persons level of handling stress is different.
As for my brother , and it being a phase , I couldn't really know for sure as i have never brought it up after we moved from our parents home. I did figure he was content on being male now due to having kids and being married, but for all I know he could still have that desire deep down . I will say that he does let on by the way he dresses daily lol (very flamboyant) but that could just be my own thinking , I know he isn't gay because he has always liked women, so I do wonder sometimes.

Ah, that's about what I thought. From what you're saying, it seems like the perception that your brother is "satisfied" in a male role seems to be largely assumption on your part (it would be unfair to press them on the issue, though). The dressing, as you note, is very likely part of some compromise they made with themselves. It's unfortunate, but many of us do walk these kind of difficult paths. Often because the legal and social framework (see above about ID for instance) around us is extremely unfair and inflexible.

So, I think it's best we don't talk about "moral responsibility"...because truthfully, I would say that given Kashiwa's situation, and the expectations and obligations it involves, the "moral" thing to be doing is quite different from the direction of the resolution the story gave to us. That too is understandable, though. In both cases, the "moral" thing is not what's being looked toward to give them happiness as human beings. It very often isn't, I think.

Wait...so what should be the so-called "moral" thing for Kashiwa to do? You're not clear on this point at all.

The "moral" thing would be to not transition, to put the huge amounts of money and effort that endeavor would take into assuring her younger sisters' future. As a transgendered person myself, one who had far less constraints and obligations in my youth than Kashiwa has, it was still impossible for me for numerous reasons: financial and family instability, lack of support, psychiatric gatekeepers who were completely untrained and unsympathetic to the nuances of the situation. It would've been irresponsible of me to have attempted it, and so although I had been on the path for several years in my early 20's, I gave up just before the point of no return (hormones).

Of course, this is the kind of morality argument that can spiral endlessly based on just how stringent you want to be, e.g. "why didn't you donate the money you spent on the computer you're using now to charity? Why don't you donate everything you have to charity and live as an ascetic?" and so on. These kinds of debates are totally divorced from realistic human circumstances and nature. Whether that makes them any less valid is something everyone must wrestle with for themselves.

So as I say, I think it's fine that Kashiwa is not pursuing the "moral" choice, but the one that may lead to happiness - for Kashiwa at least. One of the greatest truisms that struck me with this manga is when Kasumi said, in effect, "Nobody significant to your life is ever really going to be pleased by what you're choosing to do."

Kasumi was, throughout the manga, a very honest person, and I love her for that. She never pretended that she felt prepared to continue to love Kashiwa in the same way as she would a man, and always answered Kashiwa's uncertainties realistically and truthfully. Frankly, I don't see a long-term future for them, but the fact that she is still trying to see a way makes her a wonderful person. She at least is certainly a person who is trying to put someone else's happiness above her own. How long that can continue without negative repercussions, who can say.

Personal meditations on the sexual/genital questions raised earlier in the thread follow, for those interested. I have spoilered in the interest of those who are not.

Actually there are really no graphic details to be revealed here, because it's frankly impossible. Even attempting a relationship in this body would be selfish and deceitful, and sexuality utterly revolting. I've always felt so since I came to realize what I was. There is no less erotic thought possible than the thought of this body being involved in...anything. Not only for me, but the idea that it would have to be pushed on someone else, to ask them to endure this husk...I'd rather die, frankly. Kashiwa's feelings of self-loathing with regard to this were again realistic, but only a much diluted form of my own. However, this does not mean I don't feel sexual desire, or that I don't gratify that desire. It's bearable as long as no one else has to be involved and I don't have to see myself doing it, which - mercy of mercies - I don't.

last edited at Feb 19, 2015 7:07PM

So, I think it's best we don't talk about "moral responsibility"...because truthfully, I would say that given Kashiwa's situation, and the expectations and obligations it involves, the "moral" thing to be doing is quite different from the direction of the resolution the story gave to us. That too is understandable, though. In both cases, the "moral" thing is not what's being looked toward to give them happiness as human beings. It very often isn't, I think.

Wait...so what should be the so-called "moral" thing for Kashiwa to do? You're not clear on this point at all.

The "moral" thing would be to not transition, to put the huge amounts of money and effort that endeavor would take into assuring her younger sisters' future.

Well, from a narrative point of view that's a horrible choice, since it's basically doing the same thing that drove Botan away, only several degrees worse. Not to mention, Kashiwa takes care of that to some degree by leaving college and finding employment instead.

From a moral point of view, I personally find that position abhorrent, since it places finances ahead of a vulnerable person's mental health, plus putting them under much greater strain likely to lead to depression and possibly suicide (both happen a lot in the real world). There's no way she could be an effective support for her sisters other than as a money-making machine under those circumstances, so there's no way I could support a morality like that.

It's been established in the story that Kashiwa's dysphoria is pretty strong, especially towards the end. And, I imagine, the consequences of the "moral" option you suggest would be equally strong.

If that's morality, I want no part of it and question whether it's actually moral at all.

So as I say, I think it's fine that Kashiwa is not pursuing the "moral" choice, but the one that may lead to happiness - for Kashiwa at least. One of the greatest truisms that struck me with this manga is when Kasumi said, in effect, "Nobody significant to your life is ever really going to be pleased by what you're choosing to do."

Indeed, that actually takes power away from the so-called "moral" choice since it doesn't really improve matters very much. And, as argued earlier, just the opposite for Kashiwa and those who care for her well-being.

I like the way you think, Nezchan. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I will say that he does let on by the way he dresses daily lol (very flamboyant) but that could just be my own thinking , I know he isn't gay because he has always liked women, so I do wonder sometimes.

I'm not saying you meant it that way, Rosa Viola, but this sentence stood out for me, so to clarify for those (hopefully few) who are confused about it:
Transgender and Homosexuality are two completely separate and unrelated issues. whether a person is one has no bearing on whether they are the other. Since I've known several transgenders, I've heard of and seen for myself many people who think they are one and the same. I even once heard of a lesbian who said a lesbian trans woman should just get together with a man. That would only make sense if she really thought a trans woman was "just a gay man."

last edited at Feb 19, 2015 10:17PM

I like the way you think, Nezchan. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I will say that he does let on by the way he dresses daily lol (very flamboyant) but that could just be my own thinking , I know he isn't gay because he has always liked women, so I do wonder sometimes.

I'm not saying you meant it that way, Rosa Viola, but this sentence stood out for me, so to clarify for those (hopefully few) who are confused about it:
Transgender and Homosexuality are two completely separate and unrelated issues. whether a person is one has no bearing on whether they are the other. Since I've known several transgenders, I've heard of and seen for myself many people who think they are one and the same. I even once heard of a lesbian who said a lesbian trans woman should just get together with a man. That would only make sense if she really thought a trans woman was "just a gay man."

I recently did go ask my brother about this very subject , because it bothered me to a curious degree and that I must find out how his thought process worked during this time in his life . I was very surprised and utterly dumbfounded when the answer was so simple that I almost felt like an ass for bringing it up . My brothers words were " I just saw women as something beautiful and I wanted to have what they have. " Well sitting speechless for a bit I did happen to think WTF with sirens going off in my head . So his reasons were materialistic as he just wanted to obtain what he didn't have , I still don't know if I should think this a joke of a statement of take it at face value , but whatever the real reason I guess my curious mind let him off with that one . I also asked my brother about why he dressed so overly nice to a point of being flamboyant , and well the answer was more than simple in fact it goes with his original statement but with a branch so to speak in which he said " the only way I could come close to being as beautiful as a woman was to dress as beautiful as a woman would without going into woman's clothing." So I do need to ask are guys this simple ? Do guys really go with the simple answer, or is it covering for the underlying answer ? I have asked my girlfriend about this , and even she couldn't answer this lol . I may never know the real answers as I am the older one , but I do find this intriguing in the sense of wanting to try and understand the opposite sex just a bit more , but then again understanding my own sex is even more baffling lol .

A lot to talk about with this story. First I want to talk about Botan. I don't fault for having the affair. You can tell she gave up so much to shoulder the responsibility forced onto her and she accepted it all. Her liaisons was the one that was only about her, she didn't have to worry about her family or the future. She made it clear none of the sex was meant to lead to anything more, it was about her having a release and probably some control over her life. She made it clear she had no intentions of having a relationship with anyone, let alone of trying to break-up the guy's marriage.

Actually now that I think about it I feel Botan's story is keyed into the central theme of the story: sometimes we outgrow traditions. Or rather sometimes traditions just no longer mean anything when they limit people unfairly. Looking back the idea of traditions is always in focus. From the small informal ones like the games the siblings play and the Christmas tree, to larger ones like marriage and family. Honestly the younger sisters reaction to Botan not wanting a traditional life is a bit hypocritical. Not only by them accepting Kashiwa for the person she is and wants the world to see her as, but also their acknowledgment that the traditional meaning of family is meaningless to them. Honestly I think the arc of the story is Sakura admitting to herself if one follows tradition for the sake of tradition it is rather pointless. For instance her deciding to forgo college to work instead, she admitted she was only going to go since that was what you were suppose to do. But at the same time traditions that mean something should be cherished, like putting up the Christmas tree since for the sisters that has significance. I really like that message.

I still have more I want to talk about, but I need longer to properly collect my thoughts. There are a lot of heavy topic here and I want to discuss them with the proper care. But I will close with this: I really loved this story. At times it offered challenges to the reader, but I enjoyed that. It offered a weight of realism that is welcome and a little refreshing.

I recently did go ask my brother about this very subject , because it bothered me to a curious degree and that I must find out how his thought process worked during this time in his life . I was very surprised and utterly dumbfounded when the answer was so simple that I almost felt like an ass for bringing it up . My brothers words were " I just saw women as something beautiful and I wanted to have what they have. " Well sitting speechless for a bit I did happen to think WTF with sirens going off in my head . So his reasons were materialistic as he just wanted to obtain what he didn't have , I still don't know if I should think this a joke of a statement of take it at face value , but whatever the real reason I guess my curious mind let him off with that one . I also asked my brother about why he dressed so overly nice to a point of being flamboyant , and well the answer was more than simple in fact it goes with his original statement but with a branch so to speak in which he said " the only way I could come close to being as beautiful as a woman was to dress as beautiful as a woman would without going into woman's clothing." So I do need to ask are guys this simple ? Do guys really go with the simple answer, or is it covering for the underlying answer ? I have asked my girlfriend about this , and even she couldn't answer this lol . I may never know the real answers as I am the older one , but I do find this intriguing in the sense of wanting to try and understand the opposite sex just a bit more , but then again understanding my own sex is even more baffling lol .

Sometimes it actually is that simple, and he's a crossdresser. Sometimes it's far more complicated, involving denial and repressing one's self. Or a great number of options between the two like dissatisfaction with the "male" role in society and finding a different balance. You'll probably never know, and hell even your brother might never know the full truth of it. It's certainly nothing that could be easily answered, especially online by people who don't know him well. The best practical course is simply to take him at his word, of course. Nobody but your brother knows what it's like to feel what he's feeling.

The upshot is that identity and gender is tremendously difficult to fully grasp, and what appears to be a simple answer might be both simple and complex at the same time.

I missed when the last volume came out, and I'm not sure how I felt about the final arc with Botan, but I did like how it all wrapped up. But I do agree that a lot of it stems from people not being true about their own feelings, which causes all of these complications in the first place. The one person trying to live their truth disrupting everything just makes sense.

Oh, I forgot that they wrote Ebisu-san and Hotei-san... so it really does fit in with their sense of truth and family.

last edited at Mar 5, 2015 2:41PM

Blue Saint

A lot to talk about with this story. First I want to talk about Botan. I don't fault for having the affair. You can tell she gave up so much to shoulder the responsibility forced onto her and she accepted it all. Her liaisons was the one that was only about her, she didn't have to worry about her family or the future. She made it clear none of the sex was meant to lead to anything more, it was about her having a release and probably some control over her life. She made it clear she had no intentions of having a relationship with anyone, let alone of trying to break-up the guy's marriage.

I don't disagree with the rest of what you wrote about Botan's situation but there's one major difference between Botan's situation and that of any of the others. As shown in the story her situation could harm the family's of other people and it could easily be completely out of her control for that to happen. Now granted the person who is actually cheating on their wife with her is completely in the wrong too (I'd say more in the wrong but seeing as she clearly knew the guy was cheating on his wife with her I'd say it's completely even responsibility.) she's knowingly doing this. Even if she did make those things clear to the other party she was still in the wrong. It's far from impossible to find someone who won't be cheating on their spouse who doesn't want a serious relationship. (Well cultural values notwithstanding. I suppose in Japan it probably is somewhat more difficult but the point is it's still not impossible.)

It's far from impossible to find someone who won't be cheating on their spouse who doesn't want a serious relationship. (Well cultural values notwithstanding. I suppose in Japan it probably is somewhat more difficult but the point is it's still not impossible.)

I try really hard, but I'm not sure what you meant in that sentence ;/

Imo Botan decision is totally understandable. She was forced to become a mom and working adult in order to support entire family all by herself, while still being pretty young. I don't remember all the details since I read it long ago, but father was gone since she was a child I think. She gave up going to university which she didn't want, but had to. I can see why not only she wouldn't want to date anyone seriously, but actually wanted to be spoiled. Sure, she could just date single guys if all she wanted was sex, but married guys are better for 2 reasons. 1. They are still less likely to get serious about her. After all not everyone immediately goes and break their marriage and some just like the trill of cheating (not that I approve of it, but that is the fact). 2. She actually wants a father figure, that will spoil her, as we can clearly see here (the first quote is pretty good too, hinting that you never know when things you take for the granted suddenly ends).

This sums Botan's stance pretty well

last edited at Oct 17, 2015 6:21AM

Nevri

I try really hard, but I'm not sure what you meant in that sentence ;/

If you mean the "It's far from impossible to find someone who won't be cheating on their spouse who doesn't want a serious relationship." part then it's just talking about open relationships and such. The part in parentheses is talking about how that sort of relationship may be more difficult to find in a place such as Japan which has different cultural values.

Imo Botan decision is totally understandable. She was forced to become a mom and working adult in order to support entire family all by herself, while still being pretty young. I don't remember all the details since I read it long ago, but father was gone since she was a child I think. She gave up going to university which she didn't want, but had to.

Her mother died when she was 15 and her dad left when she was 18 if I recall correctly. I just reread it earlier but I wasn't paying attention to the ages so I may be a bit off there.

I can see why not only she wouldn't want to date anyone seriously, but actually wanted to be spoiled. Sure, she could just date single guys if all she wanted was sex, but married guys are better for 2 reasons. 1. They are still less likely to get serious about her. After all not everyone immediately goes and break their marriage and some just like the trill of cheating (not that I approve of it, but that is the fact). 2. She actually wants a father figure, that will spoil her, as we can clearly see here (the first quote is pretty good too, hinting that you never know when things you take for the granted suddenly ends).

This sums Botan's stance pretty well

Don't get me wrong, I can understand why she would see it as the most appealing choice. I still completely disagree with it though. While an argument could be made that the person is going to cheat anyways even if it's not with her that doesn't really excuse that she's disregarding that person's family all while claiming to care for her own. And while I can understand why that might be kinda the last straw for her the way things turned out she was still rather out of line in leaving like that in my opinion, at least as permanently as it seems she did since a year later she hadn't even contacted them. She basically went and did exactly what their father did.

The thing is that while her siblings definitely did a piss poor job of explaining things it's pretty clear that they just didn't want her to harm other families but didn't want to make her out to be the bad guy either when she kinda was. Cheating can tear a family apart. And while arguments can be made that the person getting cheated on should have had at least some idea that something was wrong with the relationship (not always the case however because some people just cheat regardless of whether their relationship with their spouse is good or not) there is no argument to be made for the kid having to be pout through that. If it weren't for the fact the guy had a kid I wouldn't have had nearly so much of a problem with it honestly. I'd still think both Botan and the guy were pretty awful for knowingly doing it because the guy should just break up with his wife if it's that bad but I wouldn't consider Botan to be so much the bad guy. Regardless of her intent her fling with the guy drug an innocent kid into the mix.

Alice Cheshire

If you mean the "It's far from impossible to find someone who won't be cheating on their spouse who doesn't want a serious relationship." part then it's just talking about open relationships and such. The part in parentheses is talking about how that sort of relationship may be more difficult to find in a place such as Japan which has different cultural values.

Thanks. Yea, Since I couldn't understand the first sentence I wasn't sure how to interpret the parentheses part as well, that is why I quoted both.

Her mother died when she was 15 and her dad left when she was 18 if I recall correctly. I just reread it earlier but I wasn't paying attention to the ages so I may be a bit off there.

Yea, I don't think I payed that much attention to ages too and I wouldn't even remember where to look for them. I think they never really focused too much on them when explaining their situation.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand why she would see it as the most appealing choice. I still completely disagree with it though. While an argument could be made that the person is going to cheat anyways even if it's not with her that doesn't really excuse that she's disregarding that person's family all while claiming to care for her own. And while I can understand why that might be kinda the last straw for her the way things turned out she was still rather out of line in leaving like that in my opinion, at least as permanently as it seems she did since a year later she hadn't even contacted them. She basically went and did exactly what their father did.

I forgot to mention. I know that what she did (cheating) was totally selfish, but that was kinda the point imo. She wanted to be selfish for once. I guess that was her way of reveling stress. Honestly I think she just didn't know how to handle her new life, so she had to find something. About her leaving, I didn't really think much about that part, but again, I guess she just was fed up with all of this and the moment her "little happiness" was destroyed, she just didn't care anymore. Also to her defend, until Kashiwa returned and started to work part time for her transition, she was fully lived supported by Botan, She was the one covering Kashiwa's expense on university etc. Botan was probably too kind to complain about it, but she wished that Kashiwa as the second oldest would help her more. That is why she left them. She put Kashiwa in exact same situation she was put once, so Kashiwa can taste it for herself, I really think Botan was fed up and pissed enough to do it. Especially after Kashiwa announced that she planned to abandon them without a word. Again. I don't say what Botan did was right or wrong, but I can at least understand her.

Also I think she did care about them in "their are my siblings" way, but I guess she did it more from obligation that actual love for them. Once she finally found a way (and courage/motivation) to just leave them and finally be free, she did that. She cared for them enough to take care of them, but not enough to keep on enduring that kind of lifestyle and forgiving them messing her private life.

The thing is that while her siblings definitely did a piss poor job of explaining things it's pretty clear that they just didn't want her to harm other families but didn't want to make her out to be the bad guy either when she kinda was.

Again, I'm not sure I understand sentence right, but if you mean that they wanted prevent Botan from ruining guys family, then you are sadly mistaken. They had no idea. They assumed Botan was abused by someone. They found out that she is meeting married guy, not knowing the one that hit Botan was the young one. So they just assumed he was at fault. Them busting his cheating was by total accident. I agree their motive, aka protecting their family, was right, but they rushed to action without enough information. I was actually very curios about how it would be solved and honestly I totally get why Botan would be so pissed at the moment that she would just leave. She sacrificed everything for them. Pushed herself when she "didn't want to cut corners on food when they were younger". All she ever asked for was that little moments of privacy that they suddenly invaded and tramped on, without even knowing the truth. I'd be pissed too. It probably could be solved by talking, but she just was too angry to bother.

If it weren't for the fact the guy had a kid I wouldn't have had nearly so much of a problem with it honestly. I'd still think both Botan and the guy were pretty awful for knowingly doing it because the guy should just break up with his wife if it's that bad but I wouldn't consider Botan to be so much the bad guy. Regardless of her intent her fling with the guy drug an innocent kid into the mix.

I won't say that Botan was more justified for cheating because of her situation. They both were equally at fault. My point was just that a lot of people seems to not grasp why Botan would do that. I think both her cheating and leaving was totally understandable.

last edited at Oct 17, 2015 7:25AM