That argument does not work if they were comfortable with their previous gender as well.

I'd honestly be willing to consider these as falling under the umbrella of genderqueer, and thus trans, as well.

Fair enough. I worded my original post needlessly harshly, apologies for that. I still do not agree with your core argument, that genderbending and being trans is implicitly linked (and especially that this is categorical, as your wording suggests).

I think that the issue people have is that "genderbender" stories are treated as wholly separate from trans identity. It's treated as a fantastical or fetishistic thing, rather than a very grounded reality that many people experience.

You use the word "treated", but the thing is, many of these stories are written like that.

It comes across as something meant for cishet men to enjoy "safely," without having to consider any messy issues like gender identity or discrimination.

Again, the stories themselves more often that not do not consider these messy issues at all, so I do not understand why you see them as a "very grounded reality that many people experience". Looking at these works as escapism or wishful thinking (easy transitioning and no social discrimination) I get, but that does not equate to "grounded reality".

That's not to say people can't enjoy genderbender (as many trans people will tell you, it's super common to be drawn to GB stories long before being aware of their own transness), but I feel like the themes are inescapably trans no matter whether you use the term or not. And attempting to say it's somehow some separate, totally unrelated thing is at best tone-deaf and at worse active erasure of trans identity and perspectives.

And yet those same perspectives then lead to criticism like that expressed by SillieHonka, which ends with the conundrum of all of this being inescapably trans and yet at the same time not accurately representative of that same trans experience. My whole point is that this is an unfair criticism, faulting a work for something the work itself never intended to convey.

There was a reason why I mentioned futa in my first post, as it shares many of the same issues and arguments as this discussion. Some of these tropes are just that, tropes. As you yourself later wrote, being transgender is not a trope. Genderbending, on the other hand, is. It is a fictional device whose primary theme overlaps with the trans experience, but at the end of the day it is just a passing similarity.

To be honest, I think it's kind of obtuse to argue that genderbending -- someone's body changing to the other sex due to magic or fake science -- and transitioning -- someone deliberately changing their body's sex with real science -- are totally different and incomparable.

While not necessarily totally different, they are separate things in my opinion, as obtuse as it is. I just fail to see a meaningful connection between a deliberate action that comes with a plethora of emotional and psychological foundations, and a magical story device thrust upon a character by pure chance that more often than not comes with none of said foundations.

These concepts are very similar, a similarity that many genderbending manga themselves discuss and use.

I would actually be interested to see a genderbending manga that discusses and uses the similarity between its concept and the experiences of trans people. So far I have not read a single one which did that, thus the claim that "many" do it seems dubious at best from my perspective.

Now, I don't agree with the argument that manga like this are inherently cisnormative. This is fake science, we can pretend that (for example) the "genderbend disease" also changed Takkun's gender identity because it's all made up.

And the reason we have to resort to pretending in your example is because the manga does not address the issue of gender identity at all.

I actually think the genderbending trope can potentially be used for some interesting and nuanced explorations of gender identity, like in the excellent Ore Ga Watashi Ni Naru Made.

I agree, I can see it potentially being used that way. All I am saying is, it very rarely is in practice, and it is certainly not in this specific work. Most of Takkun's issues regarding the changed body are superficial and revolve around whether Roko still feels attraction.

I just fail to see a meaningful connection between a deliberate action that comes with a plethora of emotional and psychological foundations, and a magical story device thrust upon a character by pure chance that more often than not comes with none of said foundations.

Magic/supernatural stuff is very often used as a metaphor for real-life issues, such as in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where (as just one example) the magic curse that turns Angel into Angelus is a metaphor for the very common teenage girl experience of "my boyfriend suddenly became a jerk after we had sex." Obviously genderbending and transitioning aren't exactly the same, but they are very similar, and so to declare any comparison between the two inherently off-limits is very strange to me.

I would actually be interested to see a genderbending manga that discusses and uses the similarity between its concept and the experiences of trans people. So far I have not read a single one which did that, thus the claim that "many" do it seems dubious at best from my perspective.

Aside from the aforementioned Ore Ga Watashi Ni Naru Made (which might even have a literal trans character), there's multiple genderbending manga where the MC is revealed to have had dysphoria all along, including Kashimashi Girl Meets Girl and this one.

And the reason we have to resort to pretending in your example is because the manga does not address the issue of gender identity at all.

Everyone has a gender identity. The fact that Takkun completely accepts her new gender -- with her main concern being that her girlfriend won't want to stay with her -- implies that she sees herself as a woman. That's not pretending, it's in the text. The speculation lies in whether her condition changed her gender identity too, or if she was comfortable with (or even preferred) being a woman from the beginning.

First, just because something is fictional doesn't mean it doesn't relate to the real world or real world issues. As Cogito says, everyone has a gender identity. You have a gender identity. For most people, that identity matches up with the one they were assumed to be and raised as. So just because someone in a story transitions through fantastical means, and it doesn't explicitly call out issues of gender identity, doesn't mean it's not dealing with them. When Takkun is afraid that she'll have to break up with her girlfriend, because she's now a woman and believes her girlfriend won't like that, that is an issue of gender identity. It's a struggle that real, actual trans people face all the time, where they have a long-term partner and are stuck because they need or want to go further in their transition, but are worried that their partner will no longer be attracted to them. So, whether you like it or not, this manga is dealing with gender identity, just in a very low-key and fluffy and implicit way.

Second, and more to the point, the whole reason I spoke up is because I'm sick of seeing trans people make comments on a work only to invariably have someone show up to explain to them that not only are they wrong, but they apparently aren't even allowed to have opinions about something because "it's not really a trans work." And my point is that a manga that's literally about a person transitioning sex and gender, no matter how it's achieved, will always be a trans work. And trying to obscure that fact, and silence trans voices who are trying to have a conversation about how a work makes them feel related to their own experiences and understanding, is Not Good.

Everyone has a gender identity. The fact that Takkun completely accepts her new gender -- with her main concern being that her girlfriend won't want to stay with her -- implies that she sees herself as a woman. That's not pretending, it's in the text. The speculation lies in whether her condition changed her gender identity too, or if she was comfortable with (or even preferred) being a woman from the beginning.

It's worth noting that some people have very flexible gender identities or don't see it as a core part of their identity. See: the concept of gender casual.

I also think it's fair to say that not all genderbending stories are necessarily focused on being trans, though they will certainly have undertones of it. Off the top of my head, they can also speak to curiosity and fantasies about seeing the world in a form other than your own, getting a fresh start with a new face, or a desire for anonymity.

However, in the case of this particular story, the focus on things like coming out and the less glamourous aspects of being a woman, I do think the trans aspect is the front and center focus. A story that's focused on the act of transforming, starting over, or anonymity would feature those things, but the actual transformation took up a grand total of 3 sentences and the other two haven't been a factor at all. Instead, the focus has been entirely on the experience of becoming a woman and the changes it has caused. (Also, a cute and fluffy romance, but that's beside the point.)

1) If you would be happy with your gender if you just magically someday got to try out a different one, while that doesn't necessarily 100% mean binary trans, it does mean that you probably fall under the trans umbrella.
2) there's no "debate" around Bridget's gender. She's textually trans, it's not people's "interpretation" any more than saying that she has a yoyo is an "interpretation". The creators of Guilty Gear have stated this multiple times, and any choice to claim otherwise is just that, a choice - to be purposefully obtuse for the sake of erasing textually trans characters.
3) the idea that genderbending, as in a trope in which a character's gender is changed, is entirely separate from stories of trans people is completely lacking in nuance or an understanding of what being trans is. Of course trans people find these stories interesting, they're wish fulfillment - in the same way that pushy lesbians are wish fulfillment for a lot of girls - because it's a way to get what you want without having to necessarily admit you want it. This is a sort of soft forced feminization narrative, as most genederbender stuff is, where someone is made to be a woman, but they don't really mind it, actually it's kinda cool, and they adapt and they're fine with it. But they didn't choose it, so the media allows us to ignore that one big elephant in the room, of "did this boy want to be a girl". And that's the appeal, even to trans people - it's a way to interact on a surface level with themes we like while usually avoiding the tense subjects of it.
4) exactly as Omega Deuse said, this story is not focused on the "genderbend" itself, but rather the experience of learning womanhood - it's a pretty similar experience to anyone who's transitioned, the fear that someone you loved won't love you anymore now, the experience of seeing other people perceive you as a woman, this is a pretty trans narrative, imo. Whether or not it was intentional.

It's worth noting that some people have very flexible gender identities or don't see it as a core part of their identity. See: the concept of gender casual.

I feel like it could be argued that "not having a specific gender identity" is, in itself, a kind of gender identity (in the way that zero both is and is not a number), but that's also super in the weeds and not something I'm personally super familiar, with, so I don't want to put my foot in my mouth any more than I already have. :)

More on topic, I do like how this manga manages to both be super fluffy and cute, and deal with some important topics respectfully. Things like "I am sensitive to women's periods and how that makes them feel" shouldn't be so surprising from (at the time) man, but I like that it shows Takkun as being empathetic and flexible even before she deals with it herself.

last edited at Jan 18, 2023 3:11PM

It's worth noting that some people have very flexible gender identities or don't see it as a core part of their identity. See: the concept of gender casual.

I feel like it could be argued that "not having a specific gender identity" is, in itself, a kind of gender identity (in the way that zero both is and is not a number), but that's also super in the weeds and not something I'm personally super familiar, with, so I don't want to put my foot in my mouth any more than I already have. :)

Speaking as someone who could be fairly accurately described as "gender casual," I think it's legitimate to call it a gender identity. To me, "gender identity" is how you answer the question "what gender are you?", and "nothing in particular" is just one possible answer to that question.

Before he was the top. Now (s)he has become the bottom (?)

my longest, exasperate sigh ever.... why can't these ever be about trans women? Not well oops ive magically become a woman and now that my bodies physically like this I guess it'd be wrong to not be a woman! Transition back?? Nonsense!!

god, it always winds up so cisnormative.

Eh, let 'em have it. It honestly seems like a fantasy in the same vein as "oh no, I was forced to wear a dress" or "woe is me, mistaken for a woman and have to play along". It doesn't just wind up cisnormitive it IS cisnormitive - always magic or something improbable because that's more relatable for the author than being trans. The point is to find something that forces the character into a different gender instead of them making a conscious decision, self-determining one's gender identity is a foreign concept to most people.

I didn't figure out I was trans from realistic portrayals of being trans but from silly stories and what-ifs, I don't enjoy them in the slightest now, but a few years ago they were helpful to me.

None of this is to imply anything about the author, just saying it's not such a bad thing, despite obviously lacking any understanding of gender beyond socially ubiquitous norms.

Read the title: Outrage!
Read the contents: [happy transbian noises]

That summarizes my deep and philosophical thoughts on the matter. (That's self-deprecating sarcasm, if it wasn't obvious.)

Edit: Oh, I already commented on the manga. Huh. I completely forgot that I had...

last edited at Jan 19, 2023 4:58PM

Maids makth the (wo)man

yo this girl (roko) horny
i wonder if takkun is going to realize she doesn't have to hold back on her horn on account of maleness now too
lmfao

Slow down speedster, dude has been a girl for 3 chapters and yoh already want them to bang?

I mean, it's not like they just met - they've been together for 3 years now. But I absolutely understand the perspective of Takkun needing some time adjusting to her new body. I guess what I'm trying to say is, banging isn't completely off the table lol.

This is wholesome. I never expected to one day like a manga tagged as "bisexual" (had trauma with this tag several years ago and decided to just skip all manga with this tag)