[In AnoKiss] They struggle, worry and deal with real issues, but all of them are unrelated to being lesbian. Whether it be demanding parents, academic scores, future aspirations, polyamory, a rekindling of an old flame or simply being too tsundere for their own good (yes this is a real issue too I am sure).

Absolutely. This is part of why I get impatient with those readers making absolutist moral judgments who can't or won't distinguish between genre tropes/conventions and real-life behavior.

A real person who can't express affection or can only send contradictory emotional signals may well end up having serious problems with relationships and be in need of long-term psychological counseling.

In fiction, where the audience can be given access to a character's feelings that they may not even have themselves, tsunderes are ready-made instruments for character development, as the audience anticipates the pleasure of the tsundere eventually acknowledging their feelings or when the tsun facade becomes evident to all the other characters.

For me, people who in real life I wouldn't want within 100 yards of me can be absolute catnip as a tsundere character.

As I said before, I wish we would get more stories like that, because it's great way to normalize homosexuality and make it feel like something natural and common.

Although I certainly enjoy this type of storytelling as it gets rid of baggage that may be in the way of what the author actually wants to focus on, I can also understand the opposite stance. Many yuri readers feel that this nearly too fantastical wish fulfillment yuri is a detriment to the awarenss of real LGBT struggles. So, while I ironically just advocated for it, the idea that creating a fake reality of nothing but lesbians who dont have to worry about sexuality being a way to normalize it seems not entirely sound.

This is why the compromise you seem to be less favorable of (an improbable amount and proximity of lesbians, but in a non-het-quarantined world) would probably be more apt at normalizing homosexuality while also dealing with such issues. If the author wants to focus on discovering ones sexuality without having to deal with heterosexual interference, then that is certainly just as viable to me.

I think all of it is good in its own way if done right.

A real person who can't express affection or can only send contradictory emotional signals may well end up having serious problems with relationships and be in need of long-term psychological counseling.

In fiction, where the audience can be given access to a character's feelings that they may not even have themselves, tsunderes are ready-made instruments for character development, as the audience anticipates the pleasure of the tsundere eventually acknowledging their feelings or when the tsun facade becomes evident to all the other characters.

For me, people who in real life I wouldn't want within 100 yards of me can be absolute catnip as a tsundere character.

Ah yes, the old discovery that if a tsundere were to appear in real life she would simply be an emotionally maladjusted or even bipolar woman. As you say, the knowledge of motivation, inner turmoil and the visible otherwise hidden dere side are rather helpful in avoiding the bipolar judgement. Sometimes.

I still believe there are variations to the tsundere tag that are important, for not every tsundere is made equal. Some are merely dishonest about their feelings, while others are more or less violent abusers. Only the unfathomable power of gag manga can make domestic violence seem adorable. I definitely prefer the former, because shielding ones embarrassment behind denial or deflections is so wonderfully... human. Mild tsundere has a weaker gap effect, but also a more consistent sweetness.

Pyoro posted:

But that's not the same as a portrayal of pervasive homophobia; that's not "over" once you've "got your girl", you can't just "defeat" some homophobe and then you're good for the rest of your life. And I would say that manga ... I'd almost say never go into the nitty-gritty of what that truly means - especially in Japanese society, especially if we also talk about sexism and whatnot on top. For example, in work, and socializing around work, and career. Or in renting or buying property, or sharing medical costs, or having say in medical decisions of your partner. Or the political atmosphere within the country, perhaps things like small town communities vs big cities; different generations of Japanese, who knows. Anything of that sort.

Good point. I do think we got some series that have more of "underlying, constant" homophobia going on rather than "1 time and done" deal, but I agree we don't really get many that focus on stuff that adults experience like you mentioned. From stuff I can think from top of my head, maybe a bit roundabout, but Girl x Girl x Boy actually deals with it that Riri, tried to break up with Fuuka specifically, because she was scared how homophobic Japanese society is and how hard living openly gay in Japan would be.

I think a lot of the appeal of the yuri genre is that it's not for the most part a gritty, detailed depiction of actual gay life in Japan (as welcome as those kinds of stories would be). Clearly some stories are straight-up fantasy wish-fulfillment, while many others are to a greater or lesser degree, but in the end these are primarily romance stories.

The only gay people I've personally known who lived in Japan were gay male Westerners (which added another major problem), so it's not like they knew what it's like to grow up gay in Japanese culture. But their accounts of what it's like to be gay in Japan are pretty grim.

As you say, the knowledge of motivation, inner turmoil and the visible otherwise hidden dere side are rather helpful in avoiding the bipolar judgement. Sometimes.

The interior access in fiction is absolutely the point, just as we can be led to sympathize with characters performing all sorts of heinous acts--The Godfather movies and The Sopranos TV series were not popular because of a widespread cultural desire to encourage organized crime, after all.

In the case of tsunderes as central characters, it's encoded in the character type that they're going to change, and almost certainly for the better. With AnoKiss, readers waited almost 5 years to get to the point in the story that we all knew was coming from the first few chapters, and what was a series of often painful emotional struggles for Shiramine were delightful to read because we were shown all along how thoroughly she was hooked on Kurosawa.

Licentious Lantern posted:

the idea that creating a fake reality of nothing but lesbians who dont have to worry about sexuality being a way to normalize it seems not entirely sound.

I meant more treating 2 girls falling in love and dating as something normal, just like het story, skipping the whole "b-but we're both girls" and worrying w/e other person is a lesbian or not. Of course I don't say we should ignore sexuality all together, but character not even batting a eye at the idea would be a nice step. Basically the romance itself should be the focus, not that they're 2 girls dating. Also I believe I said it here and in other places many times, but I understand homophobia and lack of acceptance is still a real and big issue irl, so I understand why many stories where it's pretty much present still exist, but what I'm simply saying I want to see a bit more variety than that. Just like we used to only have all those one-sided crushes stories with unhappy endings. Escapism is one of main functions of fiction after all.

I see, maybe I was too hasty and didn't fully understand you. Certainly, the ideal type of yuri would be something where sexuality is established, but not treated as a major issue. If a girl is het she is het, if she is lesbian or bi then it is not something to worry about either. Of course that will not change that falling for heterosexual women is the same old curse all lesbians have to deal with or that discovering your sexuality can be a complex process. If you asked some of my friends they would tell you that finding a lesbian girlfriend as a concept in itself is escapism....haha.

Personally when it comes to the complete erasure of homophobia or a majorly gay cast being believable, I prefer fantasy or sci-fi settings. I forgot who said it, but the phrase was about how nobody cares about your sexuality in a universe full of weird aliens to fornicate with. I suppose the same applies to fantasy settings with monstergirls~

Definitely. As far as I am aware, originally tsundere meant to be more of a variant of kuudere. Where she starts antagonistic towards MC, showing hostility, but with time, she gets closer to them and start showing more of her loving side, until it'd disappear completely.

Honestly, that initial impression reminds me more of the Rivals/Enemies to Lovers trope, which I don't think anybody dislikes, despite the thread we are in.

When it comes to tsunderes I prefer the more sophisticated kind that will rely on wit and sarcasm rather than rapid fire "Baka" volleys and then inevitably break her sardonic mask from embarrassment when things veer off their predictions. A good example would be Erika Yaegaki from the Flowers visual novel series or Rin Tohsaka from Fate/Stay Night to a lesser degree.

In the case of tsunderes as central characters, it's encoded in the character type that they're going to change, and almost certainly for the better. With AnoKiss, readers waited almost 5 years to get to the point in the story that we all knew was coming from the first few chapters, and what was a series of often painful emotional struggles for Shiramine were delightful to read because we were shown all along how thoroughly she was hooked on Kurosawa.

Ah... I was actually not refering to Shiramine, whose issues I think were actually a bit more earthbound than mere tsundere tendencies, at least later on. I was specifically thinking of the student council pair, who for some unfathomable reason, did NOT become mushy lovers even after their arc was completed. It was a severe case of mutual tsundere at that, highly volatile and incurable. At least the family seemed happy marrying their daughter off to another girl.

last edited at Jan 9, 2022 5:39PM

In the case of tsunderes as central characters, it's encoded in the character type that they're going to change, and almost certainly for the better. With AnoKiss, readers waited almost 5 years to get to the point in the story that we all knew was coming from the first few chapters, and what was a series of often painful emotional struggles for Shiramine were delightful to read because we were shown all along how thoroughly she was hooked on Kurosawa.

Ah... I was actually not refering to Shiramine, whose issues I think were actually a bit more earthbound than mere tsundere tendencies, at least later on. I was specifically thinking of the student council pair, who for some unfathomable reason, did NOT become mushy lovers even after their arc was completed. It was a severe case of mutual tsundere at that, highly volatile and incurable. At least the family seemed happy marrying their daughter off to another girl.

That's why I specified "central characters" who are given full development--those two remind me of the bitter old married couples I see shopping in stores, where they're snipping at each other the whole time about how whatever the other one's doing is wrong. Something's keeping the two of them together, but we can't see what.

And to me that was the second least effective/interesting couple in the entire series, with only the cosplayers edging them out for first place.

I'd almost say that the two-tsundere pair can rarely work (again, real genius can do almost anything) because without a foil character the pairing just reinforces the hostility and aggression of the character type rather than the possibility for change.

last edited at Jan 9, 2022 5:55PM

It's not strictly a yuri trope, but you know what else I don't like? Heart-shaped pupils.

[...] Girl x Girl x Boy actually deals with it that Riri, tried to break up with Fuuka specifically, because she was scared how homophobic Japanese society is and how hard living openly gay in Japan would be.

Yeah Girl×Girl×Boy does show many issues that gay people face in Japan, like being refused entrance to love hotels lol. Sorry, I'd just found it so funny that this was one of her major concerns when I read it, I couldn't not bring it up

That's why I specified "central characters" who are given full development--those two remind me of the bitter old married couples I see shopping in stores, where they're snipping at each other the whole time about how whatever the other one's doing is wrong. Something's keeping the two of them together, but we can't see what.

And to me that was the second least effective/interesting couple in the entire series, with only the cosplayers edging them out for first place.

I'd almost say that the two-tsundere pair can rarely work (again, real genius can do almost anything) because without a foil character the pairing just reinforces the hostility and aggression of the character type rather than the possibility for change.

Oh, what a shame. I actually like them a lot. If they had gotten a proper resolution instead of just being stamped off as finished after their volume was done I'd have even put them into my top 3 pairings. There was something very interesting about their dynamic and they were both very likable in their own way. All I really needed was a reciprocated confession and some more kissing. The cosplay couple was also effective in telling a story that is very rare in yuri... old flames getting back together. Breaking up and finding a new girlfriend is already rare enough as it is, but this was really something else. I liked them a lot.
The only pairing that did absolutely not work for me was the polyamory trio. That may just be because I don't think Canno understand polyamory (her next work about another poly triangle proved that it wasnt just growing pains sadly, she really does not do well with the theme). Also the inability to commit on the aunt/niece pair made me wonder what exactly Canno's threshholds are...

Ahem, anyway, double tsundere, yes. It is a rare and complicated affair, but actually one I am fascinated by. There is 5 seconds until a witch falls in love which comes close to that concept and nails it completely, especially with its sequel. Though again, it has that enemies to lovers aspect to it, which I suppose justifies the tsun side of things far more. Maybe there is something to that.

It's not strictly a yuri trope, but you know what else I don't like? Heart-shaped pupils.

You must have accidentally overlooked this masterpiece.
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/hana_ni_arashi_ch16#10

last edited at Jan 9, 2022 6:22PM

Blastaar posted:

(I've hardly read any yaoi at all--is "But we're both guys" a thing in that genre too?)

I'm pretty sure it is.

I admittedly haven't read a ton of Yaoi, but I've seen it in a fair bit of what I have read. It's usually portrayed a bit differently than Yuri though, with it being more "I've never thought about being with a guy before" than "but we're both guys!"

In the case of tsunderes as central characters, it's encoded in the character type that they're going to change, and almost certainly for the better. With AnoKiss, readers waited almost 5 years to get to the point in the story that we all knew was coming from the first few chapters, and what was a series of often painful emotional struggles for Shiramine were delightful to read because we were shown all along how thoroughly she was hooked on Kurosawa.

Modern tsundere don't really change, only the classic tsundere do. Though... I can't think of many noteworthy tsundere in yuri... off the top of my head I probably know more yandere.

I'm not a fan of yuri love triangles, or I haven't seen many that were particularly well executed. Usually its another mechanism to drag out the plot like "but we're both girls!"

I'm really not a fan of premises that start with blackmail, though with some exceptions.

In the case of tsunderes as central characters, it's encoded in the character type that they're going to change, and almost certainly for the better. With AnoKiss, readers waited almost 5 years to get to the point in the story that we all knew was coming from the first few chapters, and what was a series of often painful emotional struggles for Shiramine were delightful to read because we were shown all along how thoroughly she was hooked on Kurosawa.

Modern tsundere don't really change, only the classic tsundere do. Though... I can't think of many noteworthy tsundere in yuri... off the top of my head I probably know more yandere.

I'm unclear what counts as "modern" here, but I find both parts of this pretty surprising. Besides the example I gave that you actually quote, I can think of a half-dozen yuri tsunderes off the top of my head, not even taking short comedy series into account, and most of those characters do eventually come clean about their feelings.

The Dynasty tag does have 34 pages of examples, after all.

I'm unclear what counts as "modern" here, but I find both parts of this pretty surprising. Besides the example I gave that you actually quote, I can think of a half-dozen yuri tsunderes off the top of my head, not even taking short comedy series into account, and most of those characters do eventually come clean about their feelings.

A modern tsundere is just hot and cold by their very nature, and will get shy and hostile no matter how long they've been with their love interest... think of Taiga Aisaka or Reo Kawamura. A classic tsundere is typically hostile because of trauma or something along those lines, and once that is resolved or addressed mellows out and becomes much more dere all around.

I don't follow many of those series and others I just sort of disagree with... Claire Francois is more of an ojou type than a tsundere for example... she's Luviagelita Edelfelt, not Tohsaka. I never said they were nonexistent, either, just that there weren't many that seemed noteworthy or memorable in yuri works.

I don't follow many of those series

Then it's not very surprising that you don't find many yuri tsunderes.

I tend to be mostly a romance manga reader, without much interest in light novels, franchise anime, or manga derived from them, and I find yuri tsunderes to be quite common, and while it's true they don't always transform completely, they often do change considerably in terms of overall character development.

last edited at Jan 9, 2022 10:03PM

My least favorite trope, I just avoid immediately, so it's not a huge problem for me. It's when an author wants to write a child/adult story, but they want to make it surprising or less appalling or something, so they make the child look like an adult, or the adult an immature failure at life, in a big reversal. Far worse to me is the totally played straight romances between young girls and adult men all over shoujo manga right now.

Something that turns me off of a manga I might otherwise find okay is the homogeneous art style that you find on "cute girls doing cute things" applied to yuri. Half the time that includes just a small amount of subtext and no real yuri, so it basically is those shows in effect. On the polar opposite side, when sex scenes are drawn with disgusting amounts of sweat, it completely fails to be hot to me and just becomes funny.

Isn't the entire point of a tsundere having both tsun and dere? Character development for that archetype shouldn't eventually lead to them entirely abandoning the tsun, but openly admitting the dere and allowing it to shine through.

A character losing their edge and becoming docile does not a satisfying development make.
stares at Darling in the FranXX episodes 16-19
(I don't acknowledge the existence of 20-24)

Isn't the entire point of a tsundere having both tsun and dere? Character development for that archetype shouldn't eventually lead to them entirely abandoning the tsun, but openly admitting the dere and allowing it to shine through.

A character losing their edge and becoming docile does not a satisfying development make.
stares at Darling in the FranXX episodes 16-19
(I don't acknowledge the existence of 20-24)

FranXX had a lot more problems than Darling and Zero Two's relationship... plus I think she was closer to yandere than tsundere anyway. But it sounds like modern tsundere is your preference, because generally speaking the classic tsundere route ends up with them deredere, or close to it. Mei from Citrus is kuudere but her character progression sort of follows a classic tsundere.

I prefer the permanent character change but modern tsundere are way more prevalent nowadays. To each their own.

I don't follow many of those series and others I just sort of disagree with... Claire Francois is more of an ojou type than a tsundere for example... she's Luviagelita Edelfelt, not Tohsaka. I never said they were nonexistent, either, just that there weren't many that seemed noteworthy or memorable in yuri works.

I do not subscribe to either "classic" or "modern" tsunderes being more prevalent, as the trope is so overused it has infinite variations across media. This, however, is completely incorrect. Claire is a classical tsundere archetype especially once Rei manages to worm her way into her life properly. At first she is supposed to be the villainness, the bully, but quickly it's basically Rei who is bullying her with affection, which Claire does not respond to well. She has strongly negative reactions without the dere in the early chapters, but very quickly more and more dere sneaks in there, while she still acts in abject denial of her growing feelings.

The further the arcs go, the more Claire drops her tsun. She may have one of the most clean progressions as far as tsunderes go. If you get hung up on the superficial appearances like this, then I am not sure if your judgement towards tsunderes is very well thought out.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 2:46AM

I do not subscribe to either "classic" or "modern" tsunderes being more prevalent, as the trope is so overused it has infinite variations across media. This, however, is completely incorrect. Claire is a classical tsundere archetype especially once Rei manages to worm her way into her life properly. At first she is supposed to be the villainness, the bully, but quickly it's basically Rei who is bullying her with affection, which Claire does not respond to well. She has strongly negative reactions without the dere in the early chapters, but very quickly more and more dere sneaks in there, while she still acts in abject denial of her growing feelings.

The further the arcs go, the more Claire drops her tsun. She may have one of the most clean progressions as far as tsunderes go. If you get hung up on the superficial appearances like this, then I am not sure if your judgement towards tsunderes is very well thought out.

Eh... its a bit more complicated. Himedere is the word you're looking for. (Oujidere for males)

I've actually read the entire LN, though I'm still behind on Cheeky for a Commoner, and I'm also a VN and RPG nerd so I'm relatively familiar with her archetype. I actually really like the archetype - Natal March is one of my favorites - but even in galge her type isn't necessarily romanceable... you've got a better shot with the biological little sister. They definitely are similar to classic tsundere but aside from whatever insecurities and trauma made them an asshole there's a fall from grace that's almost guaranteed, and even if you're only following the manga you can tell Rei is trying to cushion Claire from that fall. Generally speaking characters like that take enough critical hits to their identity to where no matter how in love they are they need some time to themselves before pursuing a relationship. If you follow popular anime Eris Boreas Greyrat is a somewhat decent example of what I'm talking about.

I tend to be mostly a romance manga reader, without much interest in light novels, franchise anime, or manga derived from them, and I find yuri tsunderes to be quite common, and while it's true they don't always transform completely, they often do change considerably in terms of overall character development.

I don't like tsundere (especially modern tsuns) enough to actively seek them out, what I'm talking about is prevalence. They're unavoidable in romance in general but they're not really well represented in the most popular and/or anime adapted yuri. I guess they're pretty well represented in bait anyway... Chris Yukine from Symphogear for example.

I don't like tsundere (especially modern tsuns) enough to actively seek them out, what I'm talking about is prevalence. They're unavoidable in romance in general but they're not really well represented in the most popular and/or anime adapted yuri.

"Anime-adapted yuri" is such a tiny niche as to be negligible. As I said, I could name a half-dozen (what I consider to be) significant tsundere characters from this site off the top of my head. It's hardly a matter of seeking them out--I certainly don't click on a series because it's tagged that way--it's just a matter of reading a lot of yuri manga.

SPOILERS

Eh... its a bit more complicated. Himedere is the word you're looking for. (Oujidere for males)

I've actually read the entire LN, though I'm still behind on Cheeky for a Commoner, and I'm also a VN and RPG nerd so I'm relatively familiar with her archetype. I actually really like the archetype - Natal March is one of my favorites - but even in galge her type isn't necessarily romanceable... you've got a better shot with the biological little sister. They definitely are similar to classic tsundere but aside from whatever insecurities and trauma made them an asshole there's a fall from grace that's almost guaranteed, and even if you're only following the manga you can tell Rei is trying to cushion Claire from that fall. Generally speaking characters like that take enough critical hits to their identity to where no matter how in love they are they need some time to themselves before pursuing a relationship. If you follow popular anime Eris Boreas Greyrat is a somewhat decent example of what I'm talking about.

No, I myself have read all three volumes of the LN and own them physically. I am quite aware of what happens and why.
You are still completely wrong. A himedere is a girl that wants to be treated with reverence or like royalty by their target of affection, but being a tsundere about her love is not a factor at all. A himedere may be dismissive of those she considers of lower standing, but in regards to love that usually manifests in a desire for possessiveness and control, not tsundere tropes.
Himedere and the "villainess" archetype are not synonymous either. A himedere actually has nothing to do with it, aside from the fact that a villainess archetype can also be a himedere. Claire is not one such case. Her downfall is unrelated to himedere archetypes and her falling in love with Rei happens before the downfall anyway. The fact that you are trying to link them weakens your argument.

Claire is a straightforward tsundere. The layer of noble vs. commoner is her incentive for initially "disliking" or belittling Rei, but the reason she is a tsundere is her inability to face up to her romantic interest in Rei, however she may internally justify it. She gets wildly embarrassed when Rei flirts with her, she is dishonest about her motivations when she is kind to Rei, she shows cute moments at times of vulnerability, but quickly regresses when she becomes aware of her honesty.

Claire is a quintessential classic tsundere, with the benefit of being written in current times and thus the author had the insight to make her more agreeable and her character development natural. I think what had you confused here is that Claire accepting her romantic feelings and becoming more politically aware before the downfall of her family happened in the same gradual line.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 2:56PM

"Anime-adapted yuri" is such a tiny niche as to be negligible. As I said, I could name a half-dozen (what I consider to be) significant tsundere characters from this site off the top of my head. It's hardly a matter of seeking them out--I certainly don't click on a series because it's tagged that way--it's just a matter of reading a lot of yuri manga.

So... you're feeling tsun about actually naming them? I'm not expecting household names like Misaka Mikoto (who isn't really tsun around the girls but I digress) or Kyou Souma but knowing some yuri tsundere that you would consider iconic or essential would be nice.

No, I myself have read all three volumes of the LN and own them physically. I am quite aware of what happens and why.

That's nice but the entire series has been fantranslated (maybe 6 volumes worth in total) as well as the 18+ "First Night" chapter (if you're feeling frisky) and the retelling told from Claire's perspective (She's Pretty Cheeky for a Commoner) is ongoing.

Himedere and the "villainess" archetype are not synonymous either. A himedere actually has nothing to do with it, aside from the fact that a villainess archetype can also be a himedere. Claire is not one such case. Her downfall is unrelated to himedere archetypes and her falling in love with Rei happens before the downfall anyway. The fact that you are trying to link them weakens your argument.

I mean... its a matter of demographics. There's shoujo magical girl series as well as seinen magical girl series, with different characterizations in each but still recognizable to anyone and everyone as magical girls. There's no reason for a villainess in an otome game to really show her dere side, but in a galge you want her to be desirable or redeemable even if she is evil.

Claire really isn't evil (or tsun) as much as proud, so I still think himedere fits her best... but I'm also not trying to spoil people who are manga only so this isn't the place for this debate, either. Agree to disagree, for now.

SPOILERS

No, I myself have read all three volumes of the LN and own them physically. I am quite aware of what happens and why.

That's nice but the entire series has been fantranslated (maybe 6 volumes worth in total) as well as the 18+ "First Night" chapter (if you're feeling frisky) and the retelling told from Claire's perspective (She's Pretty Cheeky for a Commoner) is ongoing.

And this is relevant how? Are you trying to one-up me with some strange idea of superior knowledge? The funny thing is that I read the fan translation first and only afterwards read the official translations. Claire is already past her tsundere phase by the end of volume 2.

Himedere and the "villainess" archetype are not synonymous either. A himedere actually has nothing to do with it, aside from the fact that a villainess archetype can also be a himedere. Claire is not one such case. Her downfall is unrelated to himedere archetypes and her falling in love with Rei happens before the downfall anyway. The fact that you are trying to link them weakens your argument.

I mean... its a matter of demographics. There's shoujo magical girl series as well as seinen magical girl series, with different characterizations in each but still recognizable to anyone and everyone as magical girls. There's no reason for a villainess in an otome game to really show her dere side, but in a galge you want her to be desirable or redeemable even if she is evil.

This paragraph said actually nothing. What "demographics" are involved here? Why is this relevant to my point? A himedere archetype is very well defined regardless of genre. Claire does not fit into it. Period.

Claire really isn't evil (or tsun) as much as proud, so I still think himedere fits her best... but I'm also not trying to spoil people who are manga only so this isn't the place for this debate, either. Agree to disagree, for now.

Claire being evil or not also is of no concern to whether she is tsundere or himedere. Neither give any hint towards the moral alignment of a character. There are villains and heroes who are tsundere or himedere. Obviously IFTV is a story trying hard to subvert the villainess trope. Nobody in the story is stereotypically evil.
Pride also does not make you a himedere. There are plenty of proud tsunderes, in fact pride is one of the primary motivations for many tsunderes to not be honest about their feelings. Admitting to liking the protagonist is often seen as a loss.

Let me sum up the major difference between the two tropes in a neat bow:
Himedere: "You are my obedient dog and if you act the way I want I will reward you with my love."
Tsundere: "Y-you aren't worth my time, how could I ever love you?!"

You see where the overlap may lie between the two and why you got confused. You most likely believe that this is also a himedere trope: "How could I ever love a commoner?!"
But that is just a tsundere oujo-sama type actually. A himedere is not so much concerned with denying her feelings as to show her superiority alongside them.

last edited at Jan 10, 2022 2:57PM

"Anime-adapted yuri" is such a tiny niche as to be negligible. As I said, I could name a half-dozen (what I consider to be) significant tsundere characters from this site off the top of my head. It's hardly a matter of seeking them out--I certainly don't click on a series because it's tagged that way--it's just a matter of reading a lot of yuri manga.

So... you're feeling tsun about actually naming them? I'm not expecting household names like Misaka Mikoto (who isn't really tsun around the girls but I digress) or Kyou Souma but knowing some yuri tsundere that you would consider iconic or essential would be nice.

Very cute. "Iconic or essential" are the classic nitpicker's criteria, so you can have the rest of this conversation to yourself.

As I said, I'm a manga reader, and I don't care much for properties derived from light novels or anime, nor does the "girls making kissy face while fighting mecha or dragons or aliens" genre have much appeal.

(And I did have to look up some names, so this list isn't literally off the top of my head.)

• Toko in Marimite

• Shiramine in AnoKiss

• Himekaze Nobuku in Tsun Hime-Sama to Dame Ouji-chan

• Nika in Well Done (,) Pervert

• Kokosaki in The Mute Girl and Her New Friend

• Kurashiki in "Notes From the Garden of Lilies"

• Half the characters in the Mochi Au Lait universe

Waiting for girlfriend to be of age.