Forum › Kiss Kiss Miracle! discussion
These doujins get more and more rapey. Even when they are in a relationship, pressuring your partner into doing lewd things just sit right with me. I love yuri because I wouldn't expect from women the kind of behavior I hate about men. And especially from Rin, who canonically (or maybe it's just in my head) pushes Hanayo to fulfill for her dreams,test her limits, but never make her do something she is uncomfortable with for her (Rin's) own gain.
These doujins get more and more rapey. Even when they are in a relationship, pressuring your partner into doing lewd things just sit right with me. I love yuri because I wouldn't expect from women the kind of behavior I hate about men. And especially from Rin, who canonically (or maybe it's just in my head) pushes Hanayo to fulfill for her dreams,test her limits, but never make her do something she is uncomfortable with for her (Rin's) own gain.
Reading this post, I was compelled to read it over again: to see your view point. Yes I completely agree that Yuri has an aspect most het don't. However in Japan saying " Dame Dame, Iya, Yamate, ect." is desirable because in the culture, when a girl says " Moto Moto, Ii yo, ect" they are passed off as a sult of sorts. This may be weird to some, and kinda seems rapey, but the cliche phrase must be used: No means Yes.
Thanks for your hard work here Kaidou.
I jumped when I saw the Hanayo x Rin then saw it was the yuri-ism release which I already read...*sigh*...anyway it makes me happy to see more RinPana I feel like it's getting ignored lately.
last edited at Dec 26, 2014 9:01PM
These doujins get more and more rapey. Even when they are in a relationship, pressuring your partner into doing lewd things just sit right with me. I love yuri because I wouldn't expect from women the kind of behavior I hate about men. And especially from Rin, who canonically (or maybe it's just in my head) pushes Hanayo to fulfill for her dreams,test her limits, but never make her do something she is uncomfortable with for her (Rin's) own gain.
Reading this post, I was compelled to read it over again: to see your view point. Yes I completely agree that Yuri has an aspect most het don't. However in Japan saying " Dame Dame, Iya, Yamate, ect." is desirable because in the culture, when a girl says " Moto Moto, Ii yo, ect" they are passed off as a sult of sorts. This may be weird to some, and kinda seems rapey, but the cliche phrase must be used: No means Yes.
To some extent this is true, but it doesn't change the fact that it's kinda rapey.
This one in particular. First Hanayo keeps flat out saying that she doesn't want to, and then she tells Rin that she's not going to stop... No, that's a little different to the prototypical hentai "d-dameee" which is less "stop" and more "Oh, no! If you keep doing that I'm going to come...!"
These doujins get more and more rapey. Even when they are in a relationship, pressuring your partner into doing lewd things just sit right with me. I love yuri because I wouldn't expect from women the kind of behavior I hate about men. And especially from Rin, who canonically (or maybe it's just in my head) pushes Hanayo to fulfill for her dreams,test her limits, but never make her do something she is uncomfortable with for her (Rin's) own gain.
Reading this post, I was compelled to read it over again: to see your view point. Yes I completely agree that Yuri has an aspect most het don't. However in Japan saying " Dame Dame, Iya, Yamate, ect." is desirable because in the culture, when a girl says " Moto Moto, Ii yo, ect" they are passed off as a sult of sorts. This may be weird to some, and kinda seems rapey, but the cliche phrase must be used: No means Yes.
To some extent this is true, but it doesn't change the fact that it's kinda rapey.
This one in particular. First Hanayo keeps flat out saying that she doesn't want to, and then she tells Rin that she's not going to stop... No, that's a little different to the prototypical hentai "d-dameee" which is less "stop" and more "Oh, no! If you keep doing that I'm going to come...!"
Personally, I didn't really enjoy this DJ that much, the only thing that saved it was the art. I used to be desensitized by this " Even if she says no keep going " but being on Dynasty has really taught me even Yuri can be rapey. Just wanted to share a fun fact on why most DJ end up like this :)
last edited at Dec 26, 2014 9:45PM
Yumm, sweet late night snack...
To be frank, I don't see nothing particularly "rapey" on this doujin. Hanayo's denial is because she feels embarrased while Rin's insistence is because she has a pretty low self esteem and engagin on physical acts with Hanayo (on whom she sees everything she "lacks") as the only way to reassure herself, both as woman and as Hanayo's partner. This skewered perception stems in part by Hanayo's own low self esteem and lack of comunication (take notice how she's quick to back down once Hanayo makes clear she don't want to keep going and how fast the roles are reversed once Hanayo gets comfortable) The characterization feels in line with how they're depicted on the anime too.
To be frank, I don't see nothing particularly "rapey" on this doujin.
It's not like anyone's saying that the characters tried to ambush each other with stunguns, though. The characterisation might be completely consistent and their motivations might be easily understandable and sympathetic, but none of that is mutually exclusive from the characters' actions being a bit rapey. If anything, the fact that "I'm insecure about your feelings" can lead so naturally into "Then I won't stop even if you ask", instead of, like, "Okay, I'll initiate more often", just goes to show that our sense of normal romantic behaviour tends to have some slightly rapey elements to it. It's not about the sincerity of their emotions, it's about what they're actively choosing to do as a result.
Edit: Also, Rin, geez. Right out in the corridor? Against the window? Wow. Even if it's unlikely that anyone will pass by, at least find an open room to make out in. Doing stuff totally out in the open like that would make anyone a bit nervous. Not that right beside a stairwell is much better...
last edited at Dec 27, 2014 4:02AM
^ Agreed with what Gale said. I'm not trying to say this doujinshi is awful and it should be banned or something stupid like that, just that it's always a good idea to think critically about the media you consume and what it might be saying about how society and you yourself act! ... Even stories about cute lesbian idols. :P
Hanayo's denial is because she feels embarrased
Why isn't this a good enough reason for her to say no? They are in public, not in the confines of their bedroom. In my opinion, she doesn't say no out of play as KAIDOU said .
while Rin's insistence is because she has a pretty low self esteem and engagin on physical acts with Hanayo (on whom she sees everything she "lacks") as the only way to reassure herself, both as woman and as Hanayo's partner. >
Why would it be okay for her to push Hanayo into something she is reluctant do do just because she has good reasons to do it? If her reason would be just because she is horny, from Hanayo's perspective it wouldn't be that much different, she would still feel embarrassed.
Just because your partner feels a certain way, it doesn't mean it will affect your feelings.
This skewered perception stems in part by Hanayo's own low self esteem and lack of comunication (take notice how she's quick to back down once Hanayo makes clear she don't want to keep going and how fast the roles are reversed once Hanayo gets comfortable) The characterization feels in line with how they're depicted on the anime too.
I read that part as Hanayo giving in to the emotional blackmail (sorry I am not sure what the english word is for this). And what your interpreted as Hanayo getting comfortable, I interpreted as Hanayo not caring anymore, because she is putting her girlfriends feelings before hers.
I would have like that if Hanayo offered it freely instead of Rin kind of extorting from her.
The "No matter what you say now, I am not going to stop" is also disturbing, unfortunately that is so common I don't even know what to think of it. (Besides RUN, IT'S A RAPIST!)
^ Agreed with what Gale said. I'm not trying to say this doujinshi is awful and it should be banned or something stupid like that, just that it's always a good idea to think critically about the media you consume and what it might be saying about how society and you yourself act! ... Even stories about cute lesbian idols. :P
Second that.
last edited at Dec 27, 2014 6:53AM
^ that's exactly how I've seen it
And what's more, if Rin just waited until they were at home she could have had what she wanted. There was no need to make Hanayo feel bad like that
last edited at Dec 27, 2014 7:09AM
Timea817 put exactly what I was thinking into words. I didn't want to comment because it's just their "culture" but after seeing other people comment that also feel uncomfortable, it reassures me this isn't actually how normal relationships work.
Timea817 put exactly what I was thinking into words. I didn't want to comment because it's just their "culture" but after seeing other people comment that also feel uncomfortable, it reassures me this isn't actually how normal relationships work.
"It's their culture" really doesn't carry much weight for me anyway because there's a lot rapey in Japanese culture to start with, that's not even controversial.
Timea817 put exactly what I was thinking into words. I didn't want to comment because it's just their "culture" but after seeing other people comment that also feel uncomfortable, it reassures me this isn't actually how normal relationships work.
"It's their culture" really doesn't carry much weight for me anyway because there's a lot rapey in Japanese culture to start with, that's not even controversial.
Well it's not my culture so I will never get used to it in japanese works
I kinda run through here thinking of reading something fluff (right after reading a very depressing one-shot).
But the again, this is not what I was looking for.
After reading the DJ itself, I did not notice that "rapey" flag. Maybe somewhat, just kinda used to this cliche scenario though I did not expect that Hanayo reversal. Though until now, I still cannot understand that "no means yes" logic. Especially portraying it as a woman's language. haven't seen a manga where "no means yes" coming from a guy. No. I don't read yaoi. I tried
Nonetheless, both Rin and Hanayo are quite illogical on this DJ. Same sentiments as this:
Edit: Also, Rin, geez. Right out in the corridor? Against the window? Wow. Even if it's unlikely that anyone will pass by, at least find an open room to make out in. Doing stuff totally out in the open like that would make anyone a bit nervous. Not that right beside a stairwell is much better...
In addition, does Japan really got that many empty halls/stairway/rooms/infirmary/etc. where you can have a thorough sex without anyone knowing?! (￣▽￣)
Let's face it: very few Yuri manga/ DJ are realistic. Come on, would any sane couple do this at school, right by the staircase? Wait actually don't answer that, we've got a few bad asses here The fact of the matter is that the culture has somewhat been fabricated through this kind of media, which is, I think, where the "No means yes" notion came from. It's been over used so much to the point where when I see a Dj where "Yes" is written, I'm taken aback. Which is why I like Tima's work: no dialogue is written during the sex scenes, apeasing both the "Yes" and "No" factions.
Personally, I don't have a "no means yes" problem here. I just don't like how Rin is emotionally forcing Hanayo to have sex at school. If she just want Hanayo to touch her, she just have to take her home, Hanayo wasn't against the idea... That's just weird, I don't see Rin's problem
last edited at Dec 27, 2014 4:35PM
Do we really need this discussion? Are most yuri doujin with a bit of "force" (i would not even call it that) going to be called rapey?
Sure, why not? What's wrong with talking about this? I think if there are multiple people who have some kind of negative reaction to the way Rin and Hanayo are acting in this doujinshi it's well worth thinking about.
I'll repeat: Discussing problematic elements is not a judgment call on the media itself nor the people who consume it. It's about awareness and, although less so with this particular work as we can hardly influence the Japanese scene, hopefully about improving the general quality of media as a whole.
You know what RinPana doujin is awesome? Dandelion Reversi. There is so much enthusiastic consent-seeking in that work. Hanayo is obviously rather unsure about doing it there, but she nevertheless consents willingly rather than it being guilt-induced.
"If by any chance... you don't like what I'm about to do, be sure to tell me, okay? Even if it's while I'm doing it." This is like the absolute best thing I've read in ero yuri doujinshi. And it's the polar opposite of what happens in Kiss Kiss Miracle.
These doujins get more and more rapey.
I've seen worse. This month.
Let's face it: very few Yuri manga/ DJ are realistic. Come on, would any sane couple do this at school, right by the staircase? Wait actually don't answer that, we've got a few bad asses here The fact of the matter is that the culture has somewhat been fabricated through this kind of media, which is, I think, where the "No means yes" notion came from. It's been over used so much to the point where when I see a Dj where "Yes" is written, I'm taken aback. Which is why I like Tima's work: no dialogue is written during the sex scenes, apeasing both the "Yes" and "No" factions.
At least in the high school I went to, there were couples who would get a little too touchy-feely on school grounds -- it's not that uncommon. That aside, this is a common setting for doujins (school/classrooms are unsurprisingly popular) and it's a fantasy.
the culture has somewhat been fabricated through this kind of media, which is, I think, where the "No means yes" notion came from.
If you're implying that the idea of "no means yes" in Japanese culture is something that came from doujins, you're severely, severely misinformed. It's a very prevalent element of Japanese culture that you'll see in other areas (for example, in Japanese culture many don't flat out say "no" to an offer, but instead will indirectly imply a no. Another example is when being offered something; they refuse the first two offers -- if a third offer is made, then you can accept). In terms of sex, if you've ever heard the phrase 「厭よ厭よも好きのうち。」 (or roughly translated, "'No, no' can also mean yes") it can help to understand some. While a cliched and controversial phrase, it is a part of understanding the role that phrases like ｛いや」 and 「だめ」 play in doujins, and why you hear it so often; innocence is a huge part of Japanese feminine idealism. If anyone's ever heard of idol scandals where the idol in question was accused of having a boyfriend or sleeping around, and seen the huge backlash that she gets for that (oftentimes having to quit her career), then that may provide help as well. A striking example is Minegishi MInami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minami_Minegishi), and perhaps another high profile case is Hirano Aya's. Innocence/purity is a major part of what makes of the "ideal" woman in Japanese culture and leads women to display shame/reluctance in regards to sex so as to maintain that image of "purity". The moral implications of that notwithstanding, it does make sense why you see it so much in doujins, and why it isn't really "rapey" in keeping with the culture the media is from.
Point is, the "no means yes" thing isn't something fabricated through media. It is a part of Japanese culture and language outside of the bedroom. It just happens to also play a part inside of it, too.
I'll repeat: Discussing problematic elements is not a judgment call on the media itself nor the people who consume it. It's about awareness and, although less so with this particular work as we can hardly influence the Japanese scene, hopefully about improving the general quality of media as a whole.
I can almost guarantee you no Japanese doujin artist/author is going to read the comments section of this site and decide to radically change Japanese culture. I agree that the discussion of "problematic" elements doesn't mean judgement, but at the same time, context is key. You have to remember that Japanese doujins aren't intended primarily for Western consumption, and that they're not targetting a Western audience. Why would they completely change the cultural context of their work for them, and why would a separate audience debase it? I'm not saying you can't find fault or disagreement with it, but at the same time, there's no need to imply that the removal of cultural context in Japanese works intended for Japanese audiences will "improve the general quality of media as a whole." Not only is that pretty insulting, it's narrow-minded. Having something agree with your moral compass =/= improving the entirety of a media.
^ I pretty much explicitly said that I wasn't talking about doujinshi; of course no doujinka is going to be reading this. I was speaking in a general sense with that comment.
Also, I pretty strongly disagree with some of your arguments there, too. Just because it's "culturally acceptable" to have these sorts of aspects in media from that country doesn't mean it is thus immune to criticism. It's important to be aware of the cultural context in which these things are created (and trust me, I am), but that doesn't change the fact that I think all of the "purity" stuff and associated "expectations" of women are complete and utter bullshit.
I hate the way that idols like the AKB girls are expected to not date anyone almost entirely because of their fanbase wanting them to be "pure" and "untouched". I hated the "used goods" drama that happened when it came out that Nagi from Kannagi was not a virgin. And no amount of "Well, but that's their culture!" can justify that in my eyes.
last edited at Dec 27, 2014 7:22PM