But in a Western context you don't speak of people in third person in such a stilted way in all other cases...

And that is what I consider the difference between a translated and a localized version. Looking beyond the linguistic and cultural idiosyncrasies of the original and doing what actually works and exists in the target language and culture. Obviously: YMMV. Tastes are different. There is no perfect translation or localization that works for everyone. The original isn't perfect for everyone either.
Hence my omission of honorifics - they're just not a thing in either German or English, so they're dropped, or rather replaced. Calling back to Marissa Lenti's script for the anime again, I think she's done a stellar job for the most part, even with the scene in chapter 11/episode 7 (?) where names and honorifics become the main subject of dialogue. She instead goes for nicknames, which isn't quite as easy to consistently implement, but works out pretty well. For that episode, it would have worked out perfectly if she'd thought to have Touko refer to Yuu as "Yuu, dear" instead of just having Sayaka remark that "something feels off" in general.
Since I read the manga with the voices of Tia Ballard as Yuu and Luci Christian as Touko, I must confess it was slightly awkward to have Yuu say "Touko. Darling." during the wakeup in chapter 44. It works, but the throwback to Darling in the Franxx, in which Ballard also did a fantastic job as the female lead, is certainly there.

And Blastaar, don't worry, no more silly jokes until another one comes to mind. So it could be in five minutes, or five months, or never.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 1:20PM

Hence my omission of honorifics - they're just not a thing in either German or English, so they're dropped, or rather replaced. Calling back to Marissa Lenti's script for the anime again, I think she's done a stellar job for the most part, even with the scene in chapter 11/episode 7 (?) where names and honorifics become the main subject of dialogue. She instead goes for nicknames, which isn't quite as easy to consistently implement, but works out quite well. For that episode, it would have worked out perfectly if she'd thought to have Touko refer to Yuu as "Yuu, dear" instead of just having Sayaka remark that "something feels off" in general.

Sorry, this just doesn't fly with me. It was a blatant error on the localisation's part and ignorant of the cultural context. I'm the last person to care about honorofics in almost any context, but when it is essential to the plot or the dynamic, I will not overlook it.
That decision entirely made me feel like the localisation team did either not read/watch ahead (which they really should!) or that they were willing to sacrifice integrity of the original work for an ill-conceived attempt at keeping away from having to use last names at all costs.

If you do not have an equivalent word for a food dish in English, you don't just substitute it with something else. If someone suddenly called Okonomiyaki "grilled pizza" I would first laugh and then facepalm.

Making it more agreeable to the dub watcher's ears is certainly the goal of a localization, but not by sacrificng the sense of the original. Nicknames were not at all acceptable for Yuu and Touko's relationship at that point and simply changed their characters. That is a negative alteration. Influencing the audience's perception of what the source material says is a heavy responsibility that should never be abused, lest we get nonsense like the "I am not into girls or dragons" line by Kobayashi in the dub of Dragon Maid or the "we are cousins" nonsense in Sailor Moon.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 1:40PM

Sorry, this just doesn't fly with me. It was a blatant error on the localisation's part and ignorant of the cultural context. I'm the last person to care about honorofics in almost any context, but when it is essential to the plot or the dynamic, I will not overlook it.

Like I said, YMMV. I accept your standpoint as yours, but don't see a good enough reason to adopt it for myself.

Nicknames were not at all acceptable for Yuu and Touko's relationship at that point and simply changed
their characters.

Remember, it's being localised into a culture that is not Japanese. As such, nicknames are perfectly acceptable early in a relationship. Many people start using them pretty much from the get-go. It would be similarly acceptable for Touko to refer to a junior student and friend as "XYZ, dear" as it is for a senpai to refer to a kouhai by their first name. Less hierarchical, probably, but then again: the target culture is less hierarchical to begin with.

That is a negative alteration. Influencing the audience's perception of what the source material says is a heavy responsibility that should never be abused, lest we get nonsense like the "I am not into girls or dragons" line by Kobayashi in the dub of Dragon Maid or the "we are cousins" nonsense in Sailor Moon.

I rarely use absolutes as factual statements, but no matter how close the translation is, you are never reading or watching the source material, unless you've got near-native skills in the source language and culture and are thus actually reading/watching the original version. Even if it's Japanese VO with subtitles, it is not the original version. It is not how the creator originally wrote it or intended the media to be consumed.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 1:47PM

Nicknames were not at all acceptable for Yuu and Touko's relationship at that point and simply changed
their characters.

Remember, it's being localised into a culture that is not Japanese. As such, nicknames are perfectly acceptable early in a relationship. Many people start using them pretty much from the get-go. It would be similarly acceptable for Touko to refer to a junior student and friend as "XYZ, dear" as it is for a senpai to refer to a kouhai by their first name. Less hierarchical, probably, but then again: the target culture is less hierarchical to begin with.

Irrelevant. Yuu and Touko are not from some imaginary fantasy world, they are from Japan. We do not change cultural contexts to suit our audience just because it is okay in their cultural sphere. You don't. Change. Character. Dynamics. Or. Personalities.
For Yuu and Touko to use nicknames in their relationship was not appropiate nor something they would do except maybe as a one-off joke. The scene with Sayaka made it even stupider and actively hurt it even more. If they knew that this scene would happen, they would not have made them address each other by first name from the start. It isn't even that much of a cultural dissonance to address someone by last name. It is entirely ridiculous to assume that the majority of anime watchers would not be aware of this cultural nuance.

Your argument sounds like this "Well if we translate their words, might as well translate their cultural background to American!" That is not what a localisation does.

That is a negative alteration. Influencing the audience's perception of what the source material says is a heavy >responsibility that should never be abused, lest we get nonsense like the "I am not into girls or dragons" line by >Kobayashi in the dub of Dragon Maid or the "we are cousins" nonsense in Sailor Moon.

I rarely use absolutes as factual statements, but no matter how close the translation is, you are never reading or watching the source material, unless you've got near-native skills in the source language and culture and are thus actually reading/watching the original version. Even if it's Japanese VO with subtitles, it is not the original version. It is not how the creator originally wrote it or intended the media to be consumed.

That is a bad excuse to give localisors free reign to abuse their power. The idea is to be as close as possible to the original, not to perfectly imitate it. Those lines I mentioned are blatantly wrong and go against what the original tried to convey. Therefore they are unacceptable. We are not talking about sentence structure or idioms here, this is a intentionally altered meaning.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 1:51PM

Oh I'm quite aware that it was supposed to be that way in that sentence. Which is why Nakatani would have loved the irony that it is also a pun.

But in a Western context you don't speak of people in third person in such a stilted way in all other cases... like this one.

Those were left in there intentionally, but don't tell anyone. There are a lot more dumb literal meme TLs made during the process, but those will never see the light of day.

On the topic of the dub and the nicknames, that was an atrocious decision. Yuu and Touko calling each other by pet names are OOC & it's not like Touko could even use "Yuu dear" in front of other people the same way she can use "Yuu" instead of "Koito-san" in front of others. The point of dropping honorifics and using first names is to show closeness and has less romantic inclination than using pet names.

I tend to mostly be in line with BugDevil on the honorifics issue--in most cases I don't care one way or the other, but when it matters in the story, it matters, and just dropping them, or trying to localize with some awkward parallel, just feels off, when it isn't in fact confusing and misleading. (All the usual caveats, YMMV, etc. apply.)

I know that I'm reading a story set in a culture that isn't identical to mine; that's often a major part of the attraction. The same is true in the Kdramas I watch--the switch from formal speech to banmal can indicate the turning point in a relationship, and somebody saying, "Did you just lower your speech to me?" can be making a fairly serious accusation.

I see localization as a very limited tool, and excessive attempts to replicate the target culture are often risible when they're not outright offensive.

For instance, US high schools just don't work like Japanese high schools in some very fundamental ways, from the nature of the student council, the role of extracurricular activities, the proper and expected relationships between upper and lowerclassmen, and even to the school calendar. If you try to overlay too much of one culture onto the other, you end up distorting the very nature of the work.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 2:07PM

You don't. Change. Character. Dynamics. Or. Personalities.

Which is exactly what happened in the localised version. The characters weren't changed. Their dynamic wasn't changed. Just the way they expressed their dynamic was adapted to the target language. We needn't even talk adaptation to culture here, just language. "Senpai" is not a word in the English language, and neither are other honorifics.

If they knew that this scene would happen, they would not have made them address each other by first name from the start. It isn't even that much of a cultural dissonance to address someone by last name. It is entirely ridiculous to assume that the majority of anime watchers would not be aware of this cultural nuance.

Family name basis kind of works, and is commonly used in English anime dubs, true. Also, I'm not assuming that anime watchers are not familiar with Japanese idiosyncrasies, but that doesn't mean that you can't put in the extra effort to creatively problem-solve such linguistic issues.

Whether they knew of the scene is an interesting question, but I'm very happy with the result either way. I could very well imagine an ambitious translator/script writer setting their mind to creating a version that flows as naturally as possible in English by reducing foreign idiosyncrasies in the text. I wholeheartedly appreciate the effort as well as the result.

Your argument sounds like this "Well if we translate their words, might as well translate their cultural background to American!" That is not what a localisation does.
That is a bad excuse to give localisors free reign to abuse their power. The idea is to be as close as possible to the original, not to perfectly imitate it. Those lines I mentioned are blatantly wrong and go against what the original tried to convey. Therefore they are unacceptable. We are not talking about sentence structure or idioms here, this is a intentionally altered meaning.

Localisation strives to make the target version of the text indistinguishable from one that was originally written in that language. Such texts can include jargon like Japanese honorifics, but I'd say that ideally they should not.
I'll repeat the all-important mantra: Your mileage may vary.

Truth be told, this just feels like the old "dubs vs subs" debate reloaded, and I think we should maybe stop now. You can have the final word if you like. I think we'll have to "agree to disagree" either way, and I'm not really on a mission to convert anyone.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 2:15PM

I said it before. While some localization is unavoidable, or even necessary, replacing entire culture work is taking place in is missing the point. It's true full localization makes it easier for people from different culture to understand everything, but is it really for the better? I, and many other fans, read and watch manga and anime, because we like japanese culture and for people who are not familiar with it, it's great way to introduce it to them or make them curios about it. Removing all of it and completely localizing the work, actually comes off pretty xenophobic to me. How people are supposed to learn about different cultures than theirs, when any exposure they can experience is constantly removed. What's the point of importing something made outside of your country if instead of appreciating the differences and experiencing things from different view, you're instead erasing all of it's uniqueness and replace it with things already familiar.

On topic of honorifics (and names in general), I consider it a very interesting and integral part of japanese culture, which imo is completely untranslatable. Sure there are some equivalents, but they don't always work and a lot of nuance is lost. That's why I prefer to leave them in, because for new reader, they can easily look them up and for older reader, they give them much bigger insight into relationships, than any attempt at localization can do. Again, their culture being different is the whole point and just trying to replace everything and paint over american (or any other) culture over it just misses the point.

It's true full localization makes it easier for people from different culture to understand everything, but is it really for the better?
I, and many other fans, read and watch manga and anime, because we like japanese culture and for people who are not familiar with it, it's great way to introduce it to them or make them curios about it.

It most certainly depends on what audience you're targeting. I'm not universally arguing the complete removal of all Japanese cultural elements, but different adaptations will have different styles, aims and results.
If you intend an adaptation of a manga/anime to be an "entry drug", so to speak, targeted at people mostly or utterly unfamiliar with Japanese idiosyncrasies, the constant use of jargon might be off-putting to them. Granted, I don't think YagaKimi was intended to be such a case, but it's a perspective to take into consideration. Think of it as "accessibility".

Removing all of it and completely localizing the work, actually comes off pretty xenophobic to me. How people are supposed to learn about different cultures than theirs, when any exposure they can experience is constantly removed. What's the point of importing something made outside of your country if instead of appreciating the differences and experiencing things from different view, you're instead erasing all of it's uniqueness and replace it with things already familiar.

Yes, a complete re-adaptation can come off as really disrespectful towards the original. Think Oldboy's remake or the excellent Stieg Larsson movie adaptations made in Europe that were likewise remade in America.

Introducing new cultures can be done in different ways. Sudden, strong confrontation and/or immersion can have undesired reactance or whiplash effects, but can also kick off quite a bit of interest and even quick adaptation to new circumstances. You can also, of course, slowly ease someone into a new setting before they are fully immersed in it. That's what the omission or reduction of some cultural differences does.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 2:35PM

You don't. Change. Character. Dynamics. Or. Personalities.

Which is exactly what happened in the localised version. The characters weren't changed. Their dynamic wasn't changed. Just the way they expressed their dynamic was adapted to the target language. We needn't even talk adaptation to culture here, just language. "Senpai" is not a word in the English language, and neither are other honorifics.

See, that is where I believe you are wrong. You are far too happy with your supposed "brilliant loophole" and ignore the basic alteration to the character dynamic it is. I am not even asking for suffixes here, simply changing from last to first names was entirely feasible to do. Nicknames on the other hand are not part of the original text. Nicknames exist in both cultures. Nicknames can still be used later by Yuu and Touko, therefore forcing them in early is twisting the intention. The localisation made the characters act in a way that they wouldn't. That is not a basic translation issue, it is alteration of the source material.

Whether they knew of the scene is an interesting question, but I'm very happy with the result either way. I could very well imagine an ambitious translator/script writer setting their mind to creating a version that flows as naturally as possible in English by reducing foreign idiosyncrasies in the text. I wholeheartedly appreciate the effort as well as the result.

Altering the text and altering the meaning are not the same thing and you know it.

Truth be told, this just feels like the old "dubs vs subs" debate reloaded, and I think we should maybe stop now. You can have the final word if you like. I think we'll have to "agree to disagree" either way, and I'm not really on a mission to convert anyone.

It is not at all. I never judged the dub, I judged the script . If this had been done to the officially licensed manga I would have had the exact same reaction. The author's intent always supersedes the reader's convenience. The cultural context supersedes the ideal of being universally applicable.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 2:46PM

I am not even asking for suffixes here, simply changing from last to first names was entirely feasible to do.

That might have been an interesting angle to take, like I said. It wasn't to be, and I am simply enjoying what we got.

Nicknames exist in both cultures.

Yes, and they do so at different levels of familiarity. "Dear", "darling", "honey", "cutie" and the like carry different meanings to different people at different times in different situations. The use of nicknames (or more importantly: specific nicknames) is likewise not a perfect equivalent for dropping the honorific or using the first name, but it really did the job for me.

Altering the text and altering the meaning are not the same thing and you know it.

And I don't see how the meaning was altered, despite being quite aware of the social dynamics at work. I feel they were appropriately conveyed in the dub, ever so slightly flattened.

It is not at all. I never judged the dub, I judged the script . If this had been done to the officially licensed manga I would have had the exact same reaction.

I wasn't trying to insinuate that. I was drawing a parallel between the futility of the general "subs vs dubs" debate and the "domestication vs foreignisation" debate that exists in localisation.

The author's intent always supersedes the reader's convenience. The cultural context supersedes the ideal of being universally applicable.

I generally agree. Thing is, I think the dub does an excellent job of relaying the author's intent and I don't think leaving honorifics in would be relaying the authors intent better, just in a different way.

P.S.
If you're wondering why I'm still answering after promising you the final word: Your post just didn't read like it was the final word or you wanted it to end yet. More like you were motivating me to keep responding for a while longer. I think the discussion is going splendidly, by the way. It's nice.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 3:02PM

BugDevil posted:

It is not at all. I never judged the dub, I judged the script .

This was my issue with a lot of those dub vs sub, because when making their arguments, most people conflated dub with localization and sub with literal translation/TL notes.

Nicknames exist in both cultures.

Yes, and they do so at different levels of familiarity. "Dear", "darling", "honey", "cutie" and the like carry different meanings to different people at different times in different situations. The use of nicknames (or more importantly: specific nicknames) is likewise not a perfect equivalent for dropping the honorific or using the first name, but it really did the job for me.

In that case you are wilfully ignoring. If that is what you choose to do, then so be it.

Altering the text and altering the meaning are not the same thing and you know it.

And I don't see how the meaning was altered, despite being quite aware of the social dynamics at work. I feel they were appropriately conveyed in the dub, ever so slightly flattened.

Not at all. Let me give you this incredibly obvious example: So their relationship starts out on first name basis, which is entirely wrong to their social situation, but let us overlook it in charitable spirit.
Then they change their more intimate approach to nicknames, which contradicts that they still wanted to be able to use them in public, which does not fly with their official relationship in this scenario, but let us be incredibly unfathomably kind and accept this alteration.
Now let's say that later in the manga, Touko and Yuu decide to actually use nicknames now. What would the script writer for the dub do now? They have written themselves into a corner for absolutely no reason but lazy convenience. That is why you never overstep your boundaries in localisation and try to keep as truthful as possible in an unfinished series.

There, I gave you a reason beyond the farily obvious change of character dynamics.

The author's intent always supersedes the reader's convenience. The cultural context supersedes the ideal of being universally applicable.

I generally agree. Thing is, I think the dub does an excellent job of relaying the author's intent and I don't think leaving honorifics in would be relaying the authors intent better, just in a different way.

And I never argued for putting honorifics in. I argued for not changing the actions of characters for the sake of localisation. Not to do something that goes against their character. The dub did not convey the author's intent in that moment, it conveyed the script writer's.

Not at all. Let me give you this incredibly obvious example: So their relationship starts out on first name basis, which is entirely wrong to their social situation, but let us overlook it in charitable spirit.

It's not wrong when speaking English. Remember, we express social differences and hierarchies differently in English than we do in German, let alone Japanese. The characters' relationship stays the same, they just use the target language's normal tools to express it. In this specific case I'd argue that English is actually higher-context and less explicit than Japanese.

Then they change their more intimate approach to nicknames, which contradicts that they still wanted to be able to use them in public, which does not fly with their official relationship in this scenario, but let us be incredibly unfathomably kind and accept this alteration.

When did nicknames become socially unacceptable when speaking to your friends in English, or any western language for that matter? While I must say that at least the boys hardly ever used affectionate nicknames, I certainly wouldn't rule it out among girls.

Now let's say that later in the manga, Touko and Yuu decide to actually use nicknames now. What would the script writer for the dub do now? They have written themselves into a corner for absolutely no reason but lazy convenience.

That's when they own the consequences of their actions and get creative. It's the more challenging, but also fun part of localisation. I'm sure they'd eventually think of something pretty nice.
I also take issue with the assertion that it is "lazy convenience" on the writer's side to alter the denomination of the characters. Quite the opposite. It means putting in extra effort and thinking.

When did nicknames become socially unacceptable when speaking to your friends in English, or any western language for that matter? While I must say that at least the boys hardly ever used affectionate nicknames, I certainly wouldn't rule it out among girls.

As you’ve just demonstrated, using nicknames, particularly relatively early in an acquaintance, in the context of a US high school is entirely different than doing the same in a Japanese one, and both are different than using/dropping honorifics.

(Even spelling out how the two situations aren’t parallel can’t be made parallel because the basic relationship between first-year and second-year Japanese high-school students is not the same as that of first- and second-year students in a four-year US high school.)

The kinds of localization you’re talking about implicitly says, “These two things are essentially similar or parallel” when they’re simply not.

Again, it only matters in a translation when the issues are explicitly thematized, but when they are, full localization can amount to a substantial misrepresentation of the origin text.

Zormau posted:

It's not wrong when speaking English.

"Speaking English". They still live in Japan though. That was the point I was making earlier, which you ignored. Even if you change language, it still take place in Japan and so it still should follow Japanese cultural norms. Changing those, because "it works for target audience" and insisting, the original meaning wasn't changed, when you just blatantly admitted it was, is really pretty dishonest here.

As Blaastar pointed out, you can't replace everything and match it to culture you're translating it for, because it's not just the way you address other people. Some things simply don't translate, and when you're forcing them to adhere to different culture, it becomes foreign to both.

That's when they own the consequences of their actions and get creative.

And give us the nightmare that Ace Attorney become later. I bet they would ask themselves, the same way that localization team did, "why the hell did we changed it to America in the first place?!".

It's the more challenging, but also fun part of localization. I'm sure they'd eventually think of something pretty nice.

Again, you're assuming it's possible to constantly change and match everything in 1:1 ratio. Instead of bending over backwards to fit it into completely different culture and possibly fuck it up in the long run, when something they couldn't predict shows up, I'd much rather they focus all of their effort and creativity to translate it accurately in the first place.

I know about "accessibility" and I never said you should leave everything, but there are things, you can easily leave, without making work completely incomprehensible to the audience. There's a lot things they can understand from context and don't need to be spoon fed to. We're not dealing with babies that need to be hand-hold. We're dealing with lesbians that do the hand-holding instead.

As you’ve just demonstrated, using nicknames, particularly relatively early in an acquaintance, in the context of a US high school is entirely different than doing the same in a Japanese one,

Yes, that's the exact point I was trying to make there.

and both are different than using/dropping honorifics.

Also undeniably true. See next paragraph.

The kinds of localization you’re talking about implicitly says, “These two things are essentially similar or parallel” when they’re simply not.

Partly true. A localisation is an approximation, not a full equivalency. There often isn't much full synonymy between languages when we factor in context and cultural aspects. Thus we can only approximate via similarities.

Again, it only matters in a translation when the issues are explicitly thematized, but when they are, full localization can amount to a substantial misrepresentation of the origin text.

Also true. I think, however, that the original is not being misrepresented. It just works differently, by the socio-linguistic rules of the target language.

This means that I am more willing than you to take a step back from the setting being as specifically Japanese as possible. That's the big difference I see between our perspectives. I don't need the story to be as specifically Japanese as possible. I don't think it loses anything substantial in this case, as the hierarchies, while less explicit, are still well-represented.

We simply expect different things from and value different aspects in our entertainment products. Truth be told, I would probably have put myself into your "camp" a year ago or so. I've since written my BA thesis on translation and found the domesticating aspect of my subject fascinating. It's a lot more work, and there is obviously an added risk with ongoing IPs, but it can be quite worthwhile.

"Speaking English". They still live in Japan though. That was the point I was making earlier, which you ignored. Even if you change language, it still take place in Japan and so it still should follow Japanese cultural norms. Changing those, because "it works for target audience" and insisting, the original meaning wasn't changed, when you just blatantly admitted it was, is really pretty dishonest here.

Indeed I didn't dedicate as much time and thought to responding to you, sorry about that.
There is no perfect equivalency in translation. Even simply carrying over the honorifics will, in many cases, not be perfectly equivalent. Not only because they're an alien element in English, but also because the audience will not have a uniform concept of what those words entail. Sure, they'll have a rough concept and there will be a lot of overlap and they'll generally get the gist... but don't they also get that from a localisation like the one we got? I think they do.

As Blaastar pointed out, you can't replace everything and match it to culture you're translating it for, because it's not just the way you address other people. Some things simply don't translate, and when you're forcing them to adhere to different culture, it becomes foreign to both.

I think I answered the first of those sentences to Blastaar a few moments ago, referring to similarity and approximation as opposed to equivalency.
As for the target text becoming foreign to both cultures... I don't really see why I should care whether the localised text is now alien to the original language community... They are absolutely not the target audience.

And give us the nightmare that Ace Attorney become later. I bet they would ask themselves, the same way that localization team did, "why the hell did we changed it to America in the first place?!".

Yes, indeed, sometimes things just go horribly wrong. But then again, I think it's apples to oranges. Making the way hierarchy is expressed less specifically Japanese is a far cry from actually hard-changing the setting to another continent...

Yet, neither are unheard of in the world of modern theater and opera. shudders

Again, you're assuming it's possible to constantly change and match everything in 1:1 ratio. Instead of bending over backwards to fit it into completely different culture and possibly fuck it up in the long run, when something they couldn't predict shows up, I'd much rather they focus all of their effort and creativity to translate it accurately in the first place.

No translation or localisation is ever 1:1. Accuracy is a relative term and has different aspects and parameters.

We're not dealing with babies that need to be hand-hold. We're dealing with lesbians that do the hand-holding instead.

I know! Isn't that great?!

Also sorry for the double post, but I wanted to address both preceding posts separately and can't really multi-quote easily, can I?

Also @BD, in which chapter of Kobayashi's was that mistranslation you mentioned earlier? I'm going through it right now, it's a good read, but I've not yet stumbled across the passage, I think.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 4:24PM

Zormau posted:

Also @BD, in which chapter of Kobayashi's was that mistranslation you mentioned earlier? I'm going through it right now, it's a good read, but I've not yet stumbled across the passage, I think.

It's actually from english dub.

Zormau posted:

Also @BD, in which chapter of Kobayashi's was that mistranslation you mentioned earlier? I'm going through it right now, it's a good read, but I've not yet stumbled across the passage, I think.

It's actually from english dub.

Yeah, I'm looking for the scene so I can have a translation that BD implied would be a more accurate representation.

I think our positions and preferences have had a fair airing by now, so my last word here:

”Apparent similarity” can be substantially misleading, and even more alienating from the origin text than leaving in unfamiliar cultural elements.

I think our positions and preferences have had a fair airing by now, so my last word here:

”Apparent similarity” can be substantially misleading, and even more alienating from the origin text than leaving in unfamiliar cultural elements.

Well said, and I'm likewise happy to leave it at that. Besides, I'll be heading off to bed pretty soon either way.

I've enjoyed the discussion. Thanks.

It updates either once or twice each month

@Zormau
You keep saying that there can be no perfect equivalence as if that somehow supports your argument that they can wildly differ. That is not the case. They should not differ. Just because there is no perfect equivalence doesn't mean the script writer is allowed to distance themselves from the equivalence. It should always be a case of being as close as possible not "close enough I guess lol". The script writer is not the author, just someone who delivers the story to someone else. They have no right to alter it in any way beyond making it understandable.

When I said lazy I meant it. The "hard work" and "thinking" you talk about only came to be because they messed up in the first place. Localising things in a way that only makes it easy for your own cultural understanding is lazy. A good localisation keeps the facts, tone and cultural meaning intact.

There is absolutely nothing correct about pet names in this scenario and I find it ludicrous that you could even pretend it is. As I said, you are allowed to ignore it, but don't act like you have legitimate arguments to back it up.

I noticed that you put it all into the context of linguistics, to avoid addressing the core problem here. The cultural aspect is the issue. NOBODY in Japan will EVER use "darling", "dear" and any pet names of the kind on someone they are not intimate with. The flaw that breaks the camel's back in this sloppy localisation was that they wanted to use first names, because that would be more familiar but still acceptable in front of others without rousing suspicion. There is simply no way that Touko would ever be stupid enough to say something like that before Sayaka.

So in summary: It goes against their cultural norms, which you cannot sweep aside with translation inaccuracy or localisation, it goes against what the characters would actually do and have actually done and it is utterly lazy. A mere coverup for the shortsighted decision to go for first names right off the bat. Coverups are never a good thing and show incompetence, not creativity or anything admirable.

And with that... I'm done.

Also @BD, in which chapter of Kobayashi's was that mistranslation you mentioned earlier? I'm going through it right now, it's a good read, but I've not yet stumbled across the passage, I think.

Episode 1 of the dub and I guess chapter 2 or whatever. You would notice right away if you looked at both.
It is when Tohru says that she loves Kobayashi in a sexual way during her introduction.

It was just one example of many bad localisations that changed the meaning of the work for no reason.

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 4:11AM

One of those manga's that actually you aren't afraid to say is a masterpiece. Could easily see this been made into a live action TV show, just feels so down to earth and real. It's funny that love scene didn't feel out of place at all and fully warranted as it was the next step in their love and relationship. I read that chapter 45 is it's last chapter, if it is then unless the author doesnt leave us with a decisive ending or does something crazy, this has to go down as one of the greatest Yuri Manga's, or one of the greatest manga's of any genre really.