Rei for MVP, that's still my team.

With you there. Sayaka has already found her Big Sis (or maybe two), while Touko’s suffering stems from the loss of hers.

Can’t decide if I want Rei-chan to work on Yuu, or on Touko, or just to knock their two heads together simultaneously.

No, you're basically right. But however it happens, the real fundamental change needs to be Touko's. Yuu actually has been pretty proactive in challenging Touko's negative ideas, in a low-key and gentle way to be sure, but she keeps hitting that stone wall inside Touko.

Both Touko and Yuu need to change from where they are right now, but for Yuu that amounts to the need for some emotional TLC to arrive at a new understanding of her own feelings, while Touko needs to throw over one of the basic principles of her self-identity. That's one of the things I love about Yuu--she doesn't seem to doubt that she's worthy to love and be loved (although she wonders at first what someone great like Touko sees in her), she just doesn't really grasp what that actual experience is supposed to be like.

That's one thing therapy teaches you--coming to understand and contextualize your own feelings is useful and necessary (Yuu), but actually changing long-established negative patterns of thought and behavior (Touko) involves a lot more heavy lifting in the emotional work department.

I would never suggest Yuu hasn't been proactive. Her actions are the entire reason we could even get this far.
The problem is that she stumbled at the finishing line due to two factors. Her selflessness and her inexperience with love. She pulled back too fast. She gave up too easily.

There is no doubt that Touko needs way more attention and force to change, but I see it this way: What would happen if Touko did not manage to change on her own? What if she can't even change with Sayaka's help? Leaving the resolution, the fixing of their relationship just to the odd chance that Touko will handle it is kind of going against everything this story was about.

This is a meet halfway in the middle situation. Touko comes running back for Yuu, but Yuu is already sprinting straight into her. That's how I want this story to conclude haha
Well... metaphorically speaking.
and literally

I would make the same conclusion from a different direction. After the latest chapter Touko is in a position to judge her relationship with Yuu a painful failure or lost cause that she has to leave behind, and Yuu is the only person who can do anything about that. Touko has never failed with Sayaka.

Rei for MVP, that's still my team.

I hope you didn't mean that to say Touko will take Sayaka up on that confession... "I never messed up with Sayaka!" sounds like a line spoken before disaster lol

In case you meant just that Touko gives up and Sayaka won't be any help: While that is definitely not out of the question it would feel like a repeat of the pattern, wouldn't it? Yuu comes to snap Touko out of her problem again? At some point Touko just becomes a damsel in distress (emotionally speaking). If she never confronts Yuu herself, where is the balance?

Rei having the sisterly pep talk would be great~

That's fair enough, but do you really believe that's how it will go down?
That kind of passivity doesn't suit this stage of the story. If anything both sides need to learn something right now. Just waiting for Touko to get over herself seems a tad too simplistic. This is the point where some character should break Yuu out of her protective shell and make her realize that she is actually heartbroken. Yuu has reached a point where she alone cannot move on, but if Touko is the one to get her out of there it will entirely lack the necessary power of that change.

Basically what I mean is that while Touko gets shaken up by Sayaka, Yuu needs to realize that she is hurting and find the resolve to confront Touko again even if she is not ready to accept her! Only a proactive Yuu can ever find happiness, this is what this story established so far. Whenever Yuu hesitates or stays passive she hurts herself.

I hope that made even a shred of sense.

I would make the same conclusion from a different direction. After the latest chapter Touko is in a position to judge her relationship with Yuu a painful failure or lost cause that she has to leave behind, and Yuu is the only person who can do anything about that. Touko has never failed with Sayaka.

Rei for MVP, that's still my team.

Of course... Rei already kinda told Yuu that she's on her side, albeit Yuu problems didn't understand what that meant and probably forgot about it by this point. However, we readers sure as hell didn't, and she may be the one who gets Yuu to return to her proactive self fron earlier.

I hope you didn't mean that to say Touko will take Sayaka up on that confession... "I never messed up with Sayaka!" sounds like a line spoken before disaster lol

In case you meant just that Touko gives up and Sayaka won't be any help: While that is definitely not out of the question it would feel like a repeat of the pattern, wouldn't it? Yuu comes to snap Touko out of her problem again? At some point Touko just becomes a damsel in distress (emotionally speaking). If she never confronts Yuu herself, where is the balance?

I just meant that it would feel natural for Touko to see Sayaka's confession as a possibility for a new beginning. She's always been guided by a notion of untarnished image, and she firmly believes Sayaka's image of her is untarnished while Yuu's isn't.

last edited at Jan 5, 2019 3:15PM

I hope you didn't mean that to say Touko will take Sayaka up on that confession... "I never messed up with Sayaka!" sounds like a line spoken before disaster lol

In case you meant just that Touko gives up and Sayaka won't be any help: While that is definitely not out of the question it would feel like a repeat of the pattern, wouldn't it? Yuu comes to snap Touko out of her problem again? At some point Touko just becomes a damsel in distress (emotionally speaking). If she never confronts Yuu herself, where is the balance?

I just meant that it would feel natural for Touko to see Sayaka's confession as a possibility for a new beginning. She's always been guided by a notion of untarnished image, and she firmly believes Sayaka's image of her is untarnished while Yuu's isn't.

Well, I think your username perfectly describes literally every premise of the on-topic posts of the last 10-ish pages of the thread. That said, I'm kinda inclined to believe that Sayaka will be rejected, but then again, it still is a possibility. As your username says: uncertain.
Sidenote: Now, I know that I'm not supposed to advertise my posts on other threads, but this time, I just can't constrain myself. My most recent post on Dynasty Cafe, regarding fictional Worlds...

EDIT: After re-reading the sidenote, one of my inner selves suggested suicide, but was silenced after 15-ish or 20-ish seconds.

last edited at Jan 5, 2019 4:50PM

In the unlikely event that Touko’s response to Sayaka’s confession would be, “Hey, I’m having fun trying a bunch of new things, like the acting class and expressing my emotions to my friends, so why not give the dating scene a whirl with my BFF, Sayaka?”, that really would be a fundamental change in her character, one not organic to the themes and plot dynamics as they have developed methodically and at length in the series so far.

The only consistent motivation for Touko to enter a romantic relationship with Sayaka would be for Touko to have accepted a fundamental change in her own attitude toward love (this part is entirely possible and indeed what the whole series has been building toward) AND to discover that her true emotional bond is with Sayaka, not with Yuu.

None of that really matters when it comes to a rebound. But after 37 it seems pretty likely that Touko very much knew Sayaka was harboring feelings for her for some time now, so if Touko does feel anything for Sayaka it'll come back to that.

The further fact is that to accept Sayaka’s feelings after rejecting Yuu’s sheds a extremely negative light on her entire previous relationship with Yuu, the inherently problematic terms of which (“let me love you, but don’t fall in love with me”) were mitigated only by the apparent sincerity of Touko’s affection for Yuu.

It could actually be kind of healthy if it means she's moved on from aromantic pixie dream girls as a type.

I get that a lot of people take issue with Touko's terms or limits or what have you but... in practice Yuu's confession moved the goalpost from "I'll wait for you to change little by little" to "I want you to change all at once". She also rebuffed Touko with a confession specifically when Touko was looking for an affirmation of the status quo. I'm pretty sure Yuu wasn't oblivious to what she was asking either. In that sense I think its actually a pretty long road for Touko back to Yuu.

As far as Sayaka in general though... I'm all for side story and prequels and stuff like that but Sayaka's story needs to be told in the manga.

last edited at Jan 5, 2019 4:54PM

In the unlikely event that Touko’s response to Sayaka’s confession would be, “Hey, I’m having fun trying a bunch of new things, like the acting class and expressing my emotions to my friends, so why not give the dating scene a whirl with my BFF, Sayaka?”, that really would be a fundamental change in her character, one not organic to the themes and plot dynamics as they have developed methodically and at length in the series so far.

The only consistent motivation for Touko to enter a romantic relationship with Sayaka would be for Touko to have accepted a fundamental change in her own attitude toward love (this part is entirely possible and indeed what the whole series has been building toward) AND to discover that her true emotional bond is with Sayaka, not with Yuu.

None of that really matters when it comes to a rebound. But after 37 it seems pretty likely that Touko very much knew Sayaka was harboring feelings for her for some time now, so if Touko does feel anything for Sayaka it'll come back to that.

“None of that matters” when it comes to readers having fantasies about which imaginary people “belong” together in some imaginary reality show; it matters a great deal when looking at a work of art as a technical construction by an artist who knows what they’re doing.

In this case, the author has clearly been telling one story, and shows no real signs of suddenly swerving to tell a different one, especially one that makes a complete thematic hash of everything that has gone before.

Geez, I fell into Dragon's Dogma for like two days and this thread just went freaking nuts in the meantime.

So I have some specific things I want to respond to, but some broad strokes first:

Edit: JESUS this was longer than it felt when I was typing! TLDR version:

Miyako/Sayaka: NOPE.
Yuu, Touko, and/or Sayaka being ace: Signs point to no.
Touko/Sayaka/Yuu: Uh-uh, sorry.
Sayaka/Akari: Unlikely and needs setup to happen, but eh, sure.
Sayaka/Touko: Sorry, Sayaka. You are a precious cinnamon bun, but this is not going to go well for you.

(We now return to our regularly scheduled wall of text.)

Miyako x Sayaka:

So when this was first suggested, there was a misunderstanding that MiyakoxSayakaxRiko was being suggested, which it actually wasn't, and that distracted from the original suggestion and nobody ever really hit the fundamental problem with it (unless I missed a post, there are a lot of them) The original suggestion was that Miyako and Riko had problems, and that Riko wasn't fully committed.

That is straight up wrong. Miyako and Riko are rock solid. That is what a healthy, functioning relationship looks like. Anybody who thinks these two aren't growing old together has failed at reading comprehension.

Yes, Riko said she's not really into women, but she also affirmed Miyako is an exception to that, and that she is fully committed to their relationship. When she says she's "still testing this out", that's a -joke-, and they both know it. Miyako has shown that she is making plans for the future with Riko as a foregone conclusion. That's -why- Sayaka enjoys being around them. They are a living "it gets better" poster for her. "Yeah, your sempai was an idiot and your heart got broken and your best friend might not ever return your feelings, but look! It's possible, so don't give up!" The literal entire point of them as a narrative element in the story is to show that yes, two women can have a happy fulfilling long term romantic relationship into adulthood.

That said, I'd give good odds that Sayaka ends up working at the cafe at some point, either part time or as a manager after graduation. (if Miyako follows through on her desire to make a chain) So while Miyako is not a romantic prospect for Sayaka, that friendship/mentorship is going to be long lasting.

Yuu, Touko, and/or Sayaka being Ace:

How someone identifies as a label is up to them, but my experience is that people who identify as ace are generally so desperate for representation, they end up seeing things that aren't there. I don't see how anybody can read this manga (or watch the anime) and think Touko is ace. That girl is -thirsty-. She wants to do all the things to Yuu, but she holds herself back because she doesn't want to alienate her. Her struggles to control her urges towards Yuu were a major plot point!

Yuu seems closer, but she was definitely into that makeout session in the equipment shed. "This heartbeat must be Sempai's" my ass. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. You could make an argument that Yuu is demiromantic, maybe, or just slow to fall in love, but she invited Touko back to her bedroom to make out, and she did that because -she- wanted to.

For Sayaka, I mean, there's absolutely no reason to think she's ace? She's definitely into Touko, physically and emotionally, and she was into Idiot-sempai. She definitely seems to identify as lesbian.

If you actually want ace representation, though, you don't have to go anywhere. Maki is like, textbook asexual.

Touko x Sayaka x Yuu:

Nope. Nope nope nope nope. Listen, I don't have a problem with polyamory, but it's a tricky balance under the best circumstances, and these aren't those. People who are wanting this want it because they want all their babies to be happy, and I get it, but that isn't realistic. Sayaka and Yuu have a decent sempai/kohai relationship, but there's no emotional intimacy there, and they don't really seem like they'd be compatible. At best, they'd end up sharing Touko, which isn't a balanced relationship. There's also no indication that anyone involved -wants- a poly relationship or would be satisfied with that. Is it impossible? Eh, there might be a way to get there, but it'd take a lot longer and we would have had to have -some- indication that Sayaka and Yuu are into each other in any way. That flag has not been raised yet. Outside of that, it's just wishful thinking.

Sayaka x Akari: This one takes some serious yuri goggles. Don't get me wrong, they'd be adorable together, they're different in all the right ways to have a fun dynamic, and I'm not gonna just blindly assume that Akari is straight just because we've only seen her crush on a guy, but they've never really even interacted, and it would really be out of left field at any point in the near future. I'd have an easier time believing Sayaka x Koyomi. I'd need some groundwork to believe it, and meanwhile it definitely looks like Akari x Doujima is in the cards. But I mean, shippers gonna ship, knock yourselves out. It's not implausible anyway.

And finally, Sayaka x Touko:

Look, Sayaka is an excellently developed character, her confession was smooth as fuck, and it would not be surprising if Touko is swayed by that, and it wouldn't be unrealistic for them to end up together. But the story is framed around Yuu and Touko's relationship. People have mentioned it'd seem like she used her as a stepping stone, and that's true. Others have mentioned that if the story had started with Touko and Sayaka meeting, Yuu would become the rival side character and -would- more or less just be something Touko had to go through to grow into the person she needs to be to end up with Sayaka. That is also true.

That is not, however, the way the series started. It started with Yuu meeting Touko. And there is a reason that Nakatani-sensei started there. Because that is the relationship that this story is about.

Besides which, Touko clearly is in love with Yuu. She misses her, she wants to be with her, but she's afraid. She has to get over that fear to move forward as a character. Now, people make bad decisions sometimes, so I can't rule out the possibility that somehow, a sequence of events in the short term ends up with her dating Sayaka for a bit, but I can't see that working out long term. I mean, unless the question of the series: "What is love?" is one that Nakatani wants to answer with "Love is bullshit", because that's the lesson our protagonist would learn if Touko ended up with Sayaka.

"I wish I could fall in love!"
"I fell in love!"
"Oh, she...dumped me because I loved her back and then immediately hooked up with somebody else that loves her back."
"Well this is all fucking bullshit, I'm just going to burn my CD collection and retreat into an emotional prison for the rest of my sad and lonely life."

But maybe that's just me projecting. ;p

last edited at Jan 5, 2019 6:11PM

^ Missed ya, Heavensrun. Missed you a whole fucking lot . . .

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Reached that part of your post, and literally had to pause reading it, just comment how hilarious I found that pun.

EDIT:
Read the entire post now. The way you explained everything was just... WOW. Wish my mind wouldn't immediately just wonder off into unrelated stuff (like history), so I could actually make a post like that.

last edited at Jan 5, 2019 6:09PM

^^^ Her name is Akari, btw. And is there anyone who ships Akari x Sayaka? It's the first time I've ever seen this crackship mentioned anywhere. I have seen Koyomi x Sayaka shippers, though...

last edited at Jan 5, 2019 6:04PM

The only consistent motivation for Touko to enter a romantic relationship with Sayaka would be for Touko to have accepted a fundamental change in her own attitude toward love (this part is entirely possible and indeed what the whole series has been building toward) AND to discover that her true emotional bond is with Sayaka, not with Yuu.

None of that really matters when it comes to a rebound. But after 37 it seems pretty likely that Touko very much knew Sayaka was harboring feelings for her for some time now, so if Touko does feel anything for Sayaka it'll come back to that.

She might have suspected, but I don't think she put 2x2 together until Sayaka went out of her way to drag her off to a secluded, romantic spot for a one-on-one confrontation.

But Touko is not a thoughtless person, either. Even if she felt something for Sayaka, she -knows- she feels something for Yuu, and she knows that she just hurt Yuu. Even if she wanted to get together with Sayaka, they all have to be in StuCo together, and she'd have to reconcile not only opening herself up to Sayaka, but doing so while simultaneously leaving Yuu high and dry. My guess? Sayaka just provided Touko with the missing understanding of love (the element of acceptance) that helps her get over her fear of being with Yuu. Yuu also has to grow a bit more, but mostly I think This went a long way to putting Touko where she needs to be.

It is very likely that Sayaka just put herself into checkmate without realizing it.

“None of that matters” when it comes to readers having fantasies about which imaginary people “belong” together in some imaginary reality show; it matters a great deal when looking at a work of art as a technical construction by an artist who knows what they’re doing.

In this case, the author has clearly been telling one story, and shows no real signs of suddenly swerving to tell a different one, especially one that makes a complete thematic hash of everything that has gone before.

This is the most important thing, I think. Well-told stories have structure and a focus, It is not impossible for an author to buck expectations, but it works best when they do it in a way that audiences can metabolize. Touko ending up with Sayaka runs contrary to basically all of the manga's built up structure and themes so far. If Nakatani-sensei wanted this to be about Touko and Sayaka ending up together, she could have started the story with their meeting and brought Yuu in as a side rival character. If she wanted it to be a love triangle with an open question at the end, she could have spent the first few issues setting up the triangle, but she didn't. She set up Touko x Yuu and -then- introduced Sayaka as a rival side character with an unrequited love.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Reached that part of your post, and literally had to pause reading it, just comment how hilarious I found that pun.

I'm pleased it amused you, but I can't take credit. It's a kind of common phrase. You will enounter it again in the future. ;p

^^^ Her name is Akari, btw. And is there anyone who ships Akari x Sayaka? It's the first time I've ever seen this crackship mentioned anywhere. I have seen Koyomi x Sayaka shippers, though...

AAAAGH. Fixed that. I normally catch things like that. but my brain just fritzed out on that one. Thanks.

It's just something that got mentioned as a possibility in the last few pages. Actually, -several- crackships cropped up out of nowhere here in the past couple days.

last edited at Jan 5, 2019 6:27PM

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Reached that part of your post, and literally had to pause reading it, just comment how hilarious I found that pun.

I'm pleased it amused you, but I can't take credit. It's a kind of common phrase. You will enounter it again in the future. ;p

Guess the edit I added to that post is yet to be read...

^ Missed ya, Heavensrun. Missed you a whole fucking lot . . .

Not sure if sarcasms. <_<

Actually, -several- crackships cropped up out of nowhere here in the past couple days.

Not to mention somewhat of a war of words between @HayaH and @BugDevil, although, from what I saw, @HayaH was the one doing the war for the most part, while @BugDevil didn't really give a shit about it for the most part.
@HayaH
@BugDevil
Correct me if I was wrong in that part I redacted.

^ Missed ya, Heavensrun. Missed you a whole fucking lot . . .

Not sure if sarcasms. <_<

I think not.

Actually, -several- crackships cropped up out of nowhere here in the past couple days.

Not to mention somewhat of a war of words between @HayaH and @BugDevil, although, from what I saw, @HayaH was the one doing the war for the most part, while @BugDevil didn't really give a shit about it for the most part.
@HayaH
@BugDevil
Correct me if I was wrong in that part I redacted.

Yeah, not planning to step into that.

^ Missed ya, Heavensrun. Missed you a whole fucking lot . . .

Not sure if sarcasms. <_<

I think not.

Yeah, but playful self-depracation is one of my things when I'm not being boorishly arrogant.

^ Missed ya, Heavensrun. Missed you a whole fucking lot . . .

Not sure if sarcasms. <_<

Not in the least—I’ve been trying put out multiple interpretive brushfires with a spray bottle, and you brought the firehose.

Except for misspelling “Akari” (who I can only remember as “nice goofy het girl”), I don’t disagree with a word.

^ Missed ya, Heavensrun. Missed you a whole fucking lot . . .

Not sure if sarcasms. <_<

Not in the least—I’ve been trying put out multiple interpretive brushfires with a spray bottle, and you brought the firehose.

Except for misspelling “Akari” (who I can only remember as “nice goofy het girl”), I don’t disagree with a word.

I also managed to forget Akari's name, and just call her by her surname - Hyuuga.

EDIT:
Why or, rather, how did I remind myself of that pun-y polandball comic:
Suriname: has to write something on a document or something
Document: includes a section where surname should be written
Suriname: is confused
Suriname: thinking it was a spelling error, puts an "i" in between the "sur" and the "name" in "surname", thus spelling "Suriname", and then writes "yes" bellow it on the designated line

last edited at Jan 5, 2019 6:47PM

In this case, the author has clearly been telling one story, and shows no real signs of suddenly swerving to tell a different one, especially one that makes a complete thematic hash of everything that has gone before.

I guess... what do you feel the story is about thematically? Because I may be a bit sarcastic but I'm not expecting an asspull.

Touko ending up with Sayaka runs contrary to basically all of the manga's built up structure and themes so far. If Nakatani-sensei wanted this to be about Touko and Sayaka ending up together, she could have started the story with their meeting and brought Yuu in as a side rival character. If she wanted it to be a love triangle with an open question at the end, she could have spent the first few issues setting up the triangle, but she didn't. She set up Touko x Yuu and -then- introduced Sayaka as a rival side character with an unrequited love.

I appreciate your optimism as far as your preferred pairing but there's not really a hard and fast rule to how a triangle has to either begin or play out. That's why they're not for the faint of heart, especially when they're well crafted.

My loose understanding was that YagaKimi was an exploration of different kinds of love which I think demands Sayaka gets a fair shake. I also sort of want to see Yuu evolve because I think she needs to be something more as a character than simply the catalyst for Touko to "change". And for the record, I do still expect a Yuu X Touko ending. Just not Touko performing a grand romantic gesture or something like that anytime soon.

(now, going back to address something actually addressed to one of my posts)

Actually, I think Japan is MORE enamored with suicide than the west, whether it be in romance or in real life. There's the modern real-life suicide epidemic in Japan, as well as the historical "honorable" Japanese suicides, seppuku/hara-kiri. Just 3 years ago, the big (and really good) romance anime movie Koe no Katachi dropped, and in it both romantic leads were about to kill themselves in some point of the story, but were stopped.

Sure, Touko's probably not actually going to kill herself, but with the signs and symbolism Nakatani dropped, I think she's implying Touko might have killed herself after pulling off the play if Yuu wasn't there to save her or something.

Japan definitely has an uncomfortably high suicide rate, but my point is that the imagery and symbols involved don't say "suicide" to a japanese audience like they do to a western audience. Suicides in japan happen overwhelmingly by hanging, self-electrocution, slitting wrists, or by jumping off bridges or buildings. Nobody jumps in front of trains. I've never even seen that on any of the statistical lists. Trains are an every day fact of life in pretty much every corner of society, but nobody associates them with suicide, because Japanese culture is also interminably polite, and jumping in front of a train would inconvenience others.

the Obon imagery is also culturally important and so things like graveyards or incense don't have the same kind of assumption of morbidity that they have for people who live in the US.

I bet if you asked Nakatani, she'd be surprised anybody read it that way.

In this case, the author has clearly been telling one story, and shows no real signs of suddenly swerving to tell a different one, especially one that makes a complete thematic hash of everything that has gone before.

I guess... what do you feel the story is about thematically? Because I may be a bit sarcastic but I'm not expecting an asspull.

I don't know what your last sentence is intended to mean.