Yuzu, on the other hand, I know people are not going to agree with me but I think she lusts after Mei and wants to protect Mei from pain, but she doesn't love her (yet). What she has is more like limerence, an obsession. I say this because we are shown Yuzu's thoughts and in no moment she tries to understand Mei beyond stuff that has immediate impact on her, and she also doesn't say anything about admiring her qualities. She is just shown wanting to be in Mei's company and obsessing over getting Mei's approval. If anything Yuzu is more in love with the idea of protecting Mei from pain than with Mei herself.

I don't agree. There are plenty panels that show Yuzu genuinely admires Mei. I just think you are projecting your own view of love on the characters. Yeah, yuzu lust after Mei but also Mei, which she tries to repress so hard (chapter 29).

And her obsession is gone in volume 6. She's clearly in a pure romantic-love state, wanting to create a shared future for her and Mei. We don't have the "I protect Mei from pain" anymore since 4 volumes. So it seems to me you are stuck with the Yuzu pre-volume 6.

The fact she's writing the notebook is her way to show she tries to understand Mei, the way she decided to study for university shows that too. And very strangely, your argument contradicts what you said about Yuzu's lack of fighting spirit about Mei's decision and her apparent (because we don't know what she did) passivity.

Indeed, if she decided to respect Mei's wish, beyond her own happiness since it shatters her, this is a great proof of selfless love. And last, her internal speech before going to the onsen, in volume 8 is a clear way to see that she understood Mei's conflict (partially cause she doesn't have every info), Mei's way to take a step forward and two step down. So Yuzu being in love more with the idea of protecting Mei than with Mei herself is long forgotten since volume 5. Yuzu resolved her "sisterly" complex by buying the rings and envisioning a real future as Mei's "wife", "significant other" whatever word you can use to label it.

I also think like Blastaar said, that you depict in fact the state of love in Yuzu like the usual way the authors does in the manga for MC characters like. Since Mei isn't the MC, she has an aura of mystery that enables your interpretation. I will add that Yuzu's and Mei's personalities are different, so of course, they don't express their love the same way. Yuzu is motherly by nature and a very sensory individual, Mei is cerebral and analytic. What you take as a love less self-centered (for Mei) is just another way for the character to feel accordingly to her personality traits. Nothing more.

Yuzu's feelings are as deep as Mei's ones in the serious love department. The Aishiteru used by the author for the chapter 36, on the cover, is Yuzu's way to express her love. And this Japanese word is used for a very serious and adult love.

last edited at Apr 23, 2018 10:48AM

Yes, it is unheard of. The entire point of a Mukoyoshi is literally to get a male heir to lead the family. Its not "primarily" about preserving the bloodline seeing as how its can be done with adopting an entirely unrelated couple. Its done to keep the name and to get a male heir for their businesses. That has been its purpose for centuries, poor and middle class families dont do it to preserve their bloodline, its done by the rich to keep the business in their name. A culture that looks down on an unmarried woman isnt going to let her lead when her husband can do it instead.

The bloodline excuse kind of falls apart considering gramps just gained a new daughter in law and granddaughter and he didnt even know about it despite Yuzu being admitted into his school. Appearantly the Aihara name isnt prestigious enough to be flagged when a transfer student shows up with it. He also has no reason to think Shou cant pump out a son to continue the name. If its a mukoyoshi its being done purely for business inheritance.

And his management skills and ability to relieve Mei of her responsibilities sounds like the complete opposite of not getting the chair position.

No, it is not unheard of. It is not common, but it is not unheard of. Especially since, contrary to your opinion, poor and middle class families do it too, primarily to keep the family name from going extinct. Mukoyoshi is just a fancy term you latched onto, it is merely the husband taking on his wife's family name. According to the Japanese Family Register Act, the spouses are required to have the same family name, and they are counted under said family, but it is not actually specified which family that ought to be, the husband's or the wife's. In vast majority of cases, it is the husband's family, but instances of it being the opposite are not that rare, lol.

As for why he was not aware of who Yuzu is, that one I admit I have no explanation for, it was something that was odd even back then.

I seriously doubt the grandfather has any serious expectations of Shou taking responsibility at this point, let alone that he would produce a new hair. If he had such hopes, he would probably be pursuing that particular avenue, rather than adoption.

As for relieving Mei, I read it as fitting the scenario I laid out before, therefore, the husband will be of help to her, rather than taking over for her. I guess the phrasing is just vague enough for it to be possible to go either way, but my money is still on the help angle. Do not forget that the first fiance was gloating about the privileged, high-class life he would be having as Mei's husband, which would be kind of difficult to pull off if he would be swamped with all the work.

It's not that I'm stuck, but I read the chapters mostly all at once and that's the impression I got. What I see is that since some people have been reading this thing for years now (patient heroes for sure), whatever happened in a previous volume, since it was published years ago it seems like it's a super old issue while for someone who read Citrus very recently it's a recent issue.

In any case, in the timeline of the story Yuzu was in full-on "protect Mei from pain" state like couple of months before chapter 36 at most, because they have dated for like half a year. I'm evaluating the whole story, not what happened to the characters yesterday afternoon :P

Buying the rings or going to the wedding photoshoot thing was a super childish demonstration, it's the type of thing high school kids do... so I don't consider it evidence for love tbh, because she does these things in a sort of selfish way, like Mei is an idea rather than a person that she has to talk to. Which again is very typical of being "in love" rather than "loving" someone. But her wanting to study is definitely a pretty big step in the love direction, the only one so far in my view. Blastaar is right that these manga romance stories always show love that way though, with few exceptions (say Karekano).

Also my criticism about Yuzu's lack of fighting spirit was again because of her treatment of Mei like this distant thing that she can't seem to talk to one way or another. If she simply accepts Mei's wish without even talking to her, it's in a way as bad as trying to force Mei into not marrying.

We don't know what she did or didn't try. So it just assumption before they are cleared probably in the next two chapters. But your view on Yuzu "full protection mode" is not in the second half of the manga. 9 volumes aren't 4 volumes, you can read them one after another on a short time or indeed, read them since 2013, but the fact is that you cannot just play this card about Yuzu's love and states it's like that for all the manga when more volumes show that she did grow out of that. What happened to the characters yesterday afternoon as you say is the entire half of the manga lol.

I could say that some months before chapter 35 (cause there had been 8 months between chapter 35 and 36), Mei was in full molesting mode too ... so. And Mei has been very childish too in her way to deal with Yuzu... so no, i don't see any difference of love. You clearly put Mei above Yuzu here, personally, i don't. They are on equal grounds.

last edited at Apr 23, 2018 11:06AM

As for why he was not aware of who Yuzu is, that one I admit I have no explanation for, it was something that was odd even back then.

This is part of that underdeveloped storyworld I keep harping about. We were lucky to get a depiction of how Shou and Ume even met (in a side chapter); we've been given almost zero information about what the relationship between Shou's new family and the Aiharas has been, and we have to try to sift through vague hints and indirect inferences in order to figure out the specifics of the financial and social situation of the Aihara clan itself.

If the story were going to stay inside the lovey-dovey interpersonal bubble all the way through, that lack of information wouldn't matter so much. But to suddenly swing the plotline so it depends on aspects of the storyworld that we've barely glimpsed just highlights how we haven't been told the relatively minor details that would clarify what's happening (and what's likely or possible to happen) more fully.

And, as we see, that leads to a lot of projection onto the story of what people think should be happening or what would be happening in real life. Which this story, I think we would agree, is not.

I could say that some months before chapter 35 (cause there had been 8 months between chapter 35 and 36), Mei was in full molesting mode too ... so. And Mei has been very childish too in her way to deal with Yuzu... so no, i don't see any difference of love. You clearly put Mei above Yuzu here, personally, i don't. They are on equal grounds.

I am not putting Mei above Yuzu...all I'm saying is that Mei seems to love Yuzu for non-obsessive reasons, mostly because it's very hard to not love Yuzu. Like the girl is full of good qualities that are made very clear from the beginning and pointed out by other characters, anyone would fall in love with her. But the reverse is never shown to be true, like what does Mei have going for her other than being hot and excessively dutiful? The story never tells us, so it's better to assume she doesn't have anything else going. Because Harumin for example, in contrast, is sure shown as full of good qualities and she isn't even a protagonist.

Hence the question of why Yuzu loves Mei in the first place. If it's not for her qualities, then what is it for? As what AozKtM wrote in a previous post, she is likely just obsessed ("monomania") lol Being obsessed is not a bad thing if the other person likes that you are obsessed about them.

last edited at Apr 23, 2018 1:07PM

Guzzyfuzzy349, Blastaar and everyone else who game a legitimately answer thanks you. Also is very interesting to see everyone discussion about Yuzu and Mei relationship, the discussion is more interesting than the Manga.

Also, also I think "the kiss of yuriness" is that Blastaar mentioned is actually a thing. Yuzu had Zero romantic experience so a kiss(by extremely beautiful girl) will probably pretty impactful; combined with all the drama and non-sense it might lead to love...maybe

last edited at Apr 23, 2018 10:02PM

Matsuri jezz, Gramps did nothing wrong!

I could say that some months before chapter 35 (cause there had been 8 months between chapter 35 and 36), Mei was in full molesting mode too ... so. And Mei has been very childish too in her way to deal with Yuzu... so no, i don't see any difference of love. You clearly put Mei above Yuzu here, personally, i don't. They are on equal grounds.

I am not putting Mei above Yuzu...all I'm saying is that Mei seems to love Yuzu for non-obsessive reasons, mostly because it's very hard to not love Yuzu. Like the girl is full of good qualities that are made very clear from the beginning and pointed out by other characters, anyone would fall in love with her. But the reverse is never shown to be true, like what does Mei have going for her other than being hot and excessively dutiful? The story never tells us, so it's better to assume she doesn't have anything else going. Because Harumin for example, in contrast, is sure shown as full of good qualities and she isn't even a protagonist.

Hence the question of why Yuzu loves Mei in the first place. If it's not for her qualities, then what is it for? As what AozKtM wrote in a previous post, she is likely just obsessed ("monomania") lol Being obsessed is not a bad thing if the other person likes that you are obsessed about them.

Lol I read Citrus for 4 years and I'm still wondering this. Mei can be slightly thoughtful at best, while she can be pretty cold and inconsiderate at her worst. I just don't think Saburuta thought about this aspect very well tbh, and I always found Harumin a better match for Yuzu.

Anyway, if we really want to justify this, then we got keep in mind Yuzu is a 16 yo. At this age, people will fall for someone easier, if they're just attracted to them. I think Mei was Yuzu's first girl crush and she was the one who awoke her gay side. So first she got the hots for her.
Then Yuzu is naturally a "fixer" and kind hearted. This combined with her being young makes her attracted to people she wants to save. Mei was effed up, and that was constantly pushing Yuzu to think about how she can help her and was feeling sympathy for her. Also she knows Mei's background and that makes her excuse Mei's bad behavior. She belongs to the group of women who fall for "the bad guys" because they try to help them. I'm not saying Mei is a bad guy, but sometimes she definitely acts like one.

last edited at Apr 24, 2018 8:22AM

Some of the posts here seem to assume that being in love with someone is a flat equation of good qualities minus bad qualities equals love quotient, when in fact (as I’m sure the posters actually know) one particular quality (which may even be something with both strong positive and negative aspects) may be the only thing that matters about the other person.

Hot + stubborn + emotionally needy + emotionally distant is a combo that has captured many a heart, often against a head’s better judgment.

And Harumin is not at all a match for Yuzu, or vice versa—they might as well each fall in love with themselves. I see Matsuri (annoying twerp though I also see her as) as a better match for Harumin, because she brings qualities to the table that Harumin doesn’t have.

.

Actually, the basis for the "monomaniacal immersion" (meant, in the original context, to describe the mangaka's artistic angle/execution) is... 16yo hormones.

Also the other thing covered about a billion times over: Tropes... combo, mind-numbing, hackneyed character tropes... But primarily, the "opposites (attract)" trope as the fulcrum of the basic narrative.

What's a tad bewildering--apart from fans/haters still latching onto these characters and expecting them to act realistically for a Manga-format Dramady--is the gratuitous memory decay (in general, but in this case, for a phase most humans have undergone/will undergo in life). While notoriously unreliable when colored by tremendous amounts of Emo, memory (in some shape or form) is usually clearest during those biologically heightened phases of life--unless there's gratuitous substance abuse and/or compounded trauma making it fuzzy/absent. Even if events and specifics are all askew, most people recall the personal side of Emo more than anything else. e.g., Catalyst A made them feel like (simple/complex) Emotion B, and they hated/loved it for C amount of time. Does no one (in retrospect) recall insta-lust and crazy infatuations with every kind of this, that, and whatever--especially tempting, compulsive shit that could get incredibly messy, in all ways, and later involve weary authorities? Triggers were/are abound: it doesn't even need to emit pheromones, and someone, somewhere is hooked, then restraining orders et al are pending; many people don't come out of this haze even in mid-life and beyond--although by then, it's more psychological than hormonally propelled.

There's nothing confounding about how or why Yuzu developed feelings for Mei since 1) time-honored types and related tropes for the series' premise, 2) the entire series is about the journey--stemming initially from hormones (bolstering idealistic love) with subsequent heavy-handed-complex-Yuri-wake-up-call, and 3) the lopsided, agonizingly OCD/slow development of an actual relationship that hasn't gotten all that far by many modern standards. How one defines the type of "love" achieved is entirely subjective.

And there you have it guys... Cased closed.

Lol that's some advanced psychology analysis, I can't really follow.

Also I'm not saying a character falling in love should be with someone with only good characteristics. Of course the bad ones make the relationship way more interesting. And I'm fan of these type of characters my self. But in Mei's situation, that's not the case imo. She is just too stiff and rarely shows any emotion.
And the fact that this is a manga doesn't excuse it for not making sense, because there are plenty of mangas that have characters who feel real and interesting.
I'm not saying Citrus is that bad, nor Mei. But to me she belongs in the same category of mcs that the girl likes because the author said so. It makes Yuzu look like a doormat in some cases.
Also the latest chapter was a bit let down. Nothing happened and there was a two month gap between the chapters. Im not trying to flame, but i think the author could have come up with something better than this. Seems like the problem will externally get solved somehow again.

last edited at Apr 24, 2018 4:49PM

Lol that's some advanced psychology analysis, I can't really follow.

Also I'm not saying a character falling in love should be with someone with only good characteristics. Of course the bad ones make the relationship way more interesting. And I'm fan of these type of characters my self. But in Mei's situation, that's not the case imo. She is just too stiff and rarely shows any emotion.
And the fact that this is a manga doesn't excuse it for not making sense, because there are plenty of mangas that have characters who feel real and interesting.
I'm not saying Citrus is that bad, nor Mei. But to me she belongs in the same category of mcs that the girl likes because the author said so. It makes Yuzu look like a doormat in some cases.
Also the latest chapter was a bit let down. Nothing happened and there was a two month gap between the chapters. Im not trying to flame, but i think the author could have come up with something better than this. Seems like the problem will externally get solved somehow again.

I'll give you the short version. Yuzu was attracted to Mei because she's extremely pretty. She then got irreversibly attached to her after many months of dating. Such is life for a young person.

Does no one (in retrospect) recall insta-lust and crazy infatuations with every kind of this, that, and whatever--especially tempting, compulsive shit that could get incredibly messy, in all ways, and later involve weary authorities? Triggers were/are abound: it doesn't even need to emit pheromones, and someone, somewhere is hooked, then restraining orders et al are pending; many people don't come out of this haze even in mid-life and beyond--although by then, it's more psychological than hormonally propelled.

This used to be my life (well not the restraining orders! lol) but these relationships never work out. I guess people ask why Yuzu loves Mei because we want to know why we should cheer for them to be together. I know that's my case.

Unfortunately the answer then is just: Yuzu is young, Mei is a hot closet key and now it's too late to undo the damage.

last edited at Apr 24, 2018 5:39PM

37: Yes, move on. Good. Mend.

Look. To me, Citrus is (or has become) a major factor in the future of the genre. And not just Yuri but Yaoi and everything that comes of these genres. Honestly I can see Yuri and Yaoi fading to just the hardcore fans one of two ways. Either the everything-will-be-a-happy-ending concept will cause the interest for their growth to dwindle with the lack of imagination available to the audience. Or the genres will become folded into the Romance genre as a norm. I hope for the latter. Seriously, bringing these genres into the mainstream was an amazing awakening for the world, but it needs to be acceptable to put GL, BL, and BGL all together in the Romance genre on a equal footing. If that can't be accomplished then I don't see a real future for any of this. Forget Yuri and Yaoi, it leaves the audience with expectations. Let the expectation just be Romance. Let people discover the chemistry of your characters on their own. Don't tell them it will be this, illustrate it.

37: Yes, move on. Good. Mend.

Look. To me, Citrus is (or has become) a major factor in the future of the genre. And not just Yuri but Yaoi and everything that comes of these genres. Honestly I can see Yuri and Yaoi fading to just the hardcore fans one of two ways. Either the everything-will-be-a-happy-ending concept will cause the interest for their growth to dwindle with the lack of imagination available to the audience. Or the genres will become folded into the Romance genre as a norm. I hope for the latter. Seriously, bringing these genres into the mainstream was an amazing awakening for the world, but it needs to be acceptable to put GL, BL, and BGL all together in the Romance genre on a equal footing. If that can't be accomplished then I don't see a real future for any of this. Forget Yuri and Yaoi, it leaves the audience with expectations. Let the expectation just be Romance. Let people discover the chemistry of your characters on their own. Don't tell them it will be this, illustrate it.

I don't really think Citrus is as important as to hold yuri's future. It's just that it's the most popular one that also got an anime adaptation. Also very good artstyle. It started out great but after a while it kinda flopped. But it was already popular enough by the time it started getting repetitive.

For the past year we are really lacking a good Yuri series. Two years ago we had plenty, so for now I'll think it's just happens to be one of the bad times.

Forget Yuri and Yaoi, it leaves the audience with expectations. Let the expectation just be Romance. Let people discover the chemistry of your characters on their own. Don't tell them it will be this, illustrate it.

Well the issue though, is that people want to know the story has BL/GL and will have an ending in which the MC does not end with opposite-gender partner, because it's so frustrating to invest $ into a series and then you get an ending you didn't want. In chapter 36 folks were rioting thinking the series was over with Mei marrying a dude lol So these stories are all romantic sure...but the audiences are different. Now what would be great is for the stories themselves to become more less trope-y, and Citrus/NTR have in my opinion indeed set a good precedent (mostly NTR though, Citrus still very trope-y).

AozTkM if you aren't a professor at a college, you should consider the opportunity to be one. Seriously. I read your posts (all) and if you were to teach any topic with the same dedication to articulating the ins and outs of said topic like you have with Citrus, you'd get tenure on day one. Bravo.

On the flipside, I have yet to watch the Netsuzou Trap anime, but after the manga... jeebus, it's not something that (in my mind) could ever be made less niche (in so many ways). Even if the production was done "well"--and I have no idea how this could be defined other than " not Horrible", that story is so never going to become a cult phenomenon in animated form. (As a "best possible translation/collaborative re-envisioning", I could see it being made into a series of "tonally elevated/altered" vignettes--an atmosphere reminiscent of Goodbye, Dragon Inn (2003) mixed with aloof intensity found in complex scenes from Lust, Caution (2007)--or maybe go non-Asian, and more school-age-scenario apropos, with the lush, poetic style of the forgotten Canadian flick, Lost and Delirious (2001), but it's a pipe-dream given the low ratings and well... the quality of the source.) For stuff like this, it could be that the original "yuri manga" format is its best possible incarnation--the realistic "Best" here is probably "Interesting"... but I have yet to experience the divisive adaptation.

NTR anime was absolute garbage lol Mostly because I feel the manga is based on Yuma's internal monologues and the anime could not show that, plus it was like only 9min each episode. It was seriously bad.

I don't think the manga would ever become popular like Citrus though because people tend to dislike stories that are too morally grey, and with characters that they cannot connect with...either because they've never lived anything similar to what's being told in the story, or because it would make them uncomfortable if they admit to themselves they connect. After all most people don't want to think they behave shitty towards others when it comes to relationships...see how much hate Mei gets and she is like a healthy angel in comparison to Hotaru :P Still it really broke with conventions of previous yuri stories I read. I find it much better than Citrus and it's one of my top romance manga for sure.

last edited at Apr 25, 2018 10:44PM

NTR has ended actually, check your manga source! I think although the manga started seemingly shallow with a lot of fan-service, just like in Citrus it was the bait for a much better plot later on, and the characters become much more relatable. For example Hotaru's behaviour ends up being thoroughly discussed and explained, something still missing from the plot in Citrus.

last edited at Apr 28, 2018 4:24PM

I am curious. What does this mean for you? Saburouta indeed was at the border of the burn out last year, unfinished short chapter in October because she had to release her volume 8 the same month, a thing she never did before. A hiatus in December (and she tweeted the delay 6 days before the magazine was released), another hiatus in March (indeed expected, cause she does that all the time when a volume is published), and a short chapter this month.

This entire thread... gradually scares me than the ghost story

Seeing people overanalyze and apply psychology to the characters and plot of a manga like Citrus to this level is really shocking and a bit scary. It's like I am reading an Eva thread or something even bigger.

I mean, Saburouta even said Mei is difficult to write. I'm guessing not even her understands her own character that well.

last edited at Apr 29, 2018 1:48PM

LOL oh my innocent child :P

Huh, yeah, she said that, but that doesn't mean she creates the characters, drawings etc haphazardly. I think people actually underestimate by a LOT the amount of work and thought that goes into anything they purchase or consume when they don't know how it's actually made. That's precisely why we get hooked on things, for example, that get advertised to us. Even a simple ad of any product has a lot of work and knowledge that goes into it, which is why it works.

I'm a sw engineer and encounter this in my daily life; people actually think that e.g. the social media apps they use are easy to make, or that they are not meticulously designed, from the colours to the button positioning, to trigger a desired effect which has also been designed in advance. The fact that Citrus, in comparison to other yuri manga etc gained all this attention is not at all accidental.

I'm a sw engineer and encounter this in my daily life; people actually think that e.g. the social media apps they use are easy to make, or that they are not meticulously designed, from the colours to the button positioning, to trigger a desired effect which has also been designed in advance. The fact that Citrus, in comparison to other yuri manga etc gained all this attention is not at all accidental.

Citrus is the most popular in the West (along with Girl Friends) but popularity doesn't equal quality. I still don't think it's that bad as some people say, like they say it's some irredeemable trash and stuff. In Japan, Citrus is not that popular compared to other yuri titles/subtext, so it seems this is a case of different culture = different interests.

last edited at Apr 29, 2018 3:37PM