The rings
and one reaction to said rings

I know I said "I heard that", but I've seen clips and stuff, I'm not making as big of a shot in the dark as just basing my thoughts on hearsay
Anyways, if a yuri series were to get the same amount of "subtext" as Yuri on Ice, I don't think yuri fans would mind one bit, tbh.

Edit: Just in case, i was sarcastic about calling it "subtext" by the way. I wouldn't call ALL THAT GAY ASS SHIT subtext. Hence the quote marks.

last edited at Aug 15, 2017 5:32PM

The rings
and one reaction to said rings

I know I said "I heard that", but I've seen clips and stuff, I'm not making as big of a shot in the dark as just basing my thoughts on hearsay
Anyways, if a yuri series were to get the same amount of "subtext" as Yuri on Ice, I don't think yuri fans would mind one bit, tbh.

I did not know about the matching rings thing, I think that makes me feel a bit better about not calling it queerbait. I'd argue that FliFla has more "subtext" than YoI especially taking into consideration the matching wedding dresses. Of course, it's kinda hard to quantify whether one thing has more subtext than another, but still... I can only hope that the peeps in YoI end up wearing matching wedding suits in the probably inevitable second season.

Also, looking back at my first post, I just realized I forgot to say why I was surprised no one mentioned yuri. I mean, I'm sure many people were drawn to FliFla just 'cause of the yuri just as many were apparently drawn to YoI just 'cause of the yaoi. I certainly know I was; I didn't really pay FliFla any mind (I'm not really a big anime watcher, pretty much the only thing I watch is yuri) until I chanced upon in the Anime Discussion thread here at Dynasty. There's not really a way to prove this, but I'd be kind of curious to know how many were drawn to FliFla primarily because of the yuri... even if a large percentage of the people who watched FliFla were indeed drawn to it for the yuri, I think it'd be more depressing than anything since FliFla sold 900 copies and YoI sold 60,000 (I'm certainly happy that a yaoi show reached this level of popularity, but it just goes to show the massive gap in number of yuri fans and number of yaoi fans)a, but still...

last edited at Aug 15, 2017 5:24PM

YoI and FliFla are an interesting contrast. One you have a pretty passionate kiss and the matching rings, but no words of commitment. Meanwhile the other you have "I love you" about a billion times and armoured wedding gowns, but no kiss.

I have seen some interesting speculation that Yuri in YoI is demisexual, seeing how his initial point of reference for seduction is a pork cutlet bowl and doesn't become sexual or directed at a person until they develop a deeper relationship. It's like the whole concept of romance and sex never occurred to him until Victor came along.

FYI, YoI sold RIDICUOUSLY well. Literally the only series to my knowledge that have beaten it are Monogatrai, PMMM and one of the Gundam series.

Also, remember that yaoi is never targeted to gay men, but straight women (fujoshi as term exists for a reason). It's less "positive LGBT rep" in many cases and more "disturbed fem-otaku". Really, a lot of the stuff from the 70s is more respectful...

last edited at Aug 15, 2017 11:19PM

FYI, YoI sold RIDICUOUSLY well. Literally the only series to my knowledge that have beaten it are Monogatrai, PMMM and one of the Gundam series.

Also, remember that yaoi is never targeted to gay men, but straight women (fujoshi as term exists for a reason). It's less "positive LGBT rep" in many cases and more "disturbed fem-otaku". Really, a lot of the stuff from the 70s is more respectful...

As a friend of mine put it, "Yaoi isn't gay literature, it's porn for girls."

FYI, YoI sold RIDICUOUSLY well. Literally the only series to my knowledge that have beaten it are Monogatrai, PMMM and one of the Gundam series.

Also, remember that yaoi is never targeted to gay men, but straight women (fujoshi as term exists for a reason). It's less "positive LGBT rep" in many cases and more "disturbed fem-otaku". Really, a lot of the stuff from the 70s is more respectful...

As a friend of mine put it, "Yaoi isn't gay literature, it's porn for girls."

1) Is that true of Yuri to the same extent? If not then why?

2) Wouldn't straight women enjoy more open romance in Yaoi?

last edited at Aug 15, 2017 11:44PM

1. A lot more of the yuri market is women than the yaoi market is dudes. It's a smaller market, but a lot of the actual authors of yuri stories, especially the really notable ones, are all bi or lesbian women.

2. shrugs forever

Yep. This leads to there often being way more fanart of random BL pairings, even when there's an actual femslash pairing that's one of the main ships of the story (looking at you, Danganronpa fandom...).

It's part of why I respect Kenichirou Takaki as a creator. The man has made no secret of never deffering to audience interests, and one of the things he's openly disliked is a series of otherwise completely girls just having a token guy to fawn over. That's why Senran Kagura is considerably more open about lesbians existing than other works of a simular type.

Senran Kagura New Wave finally had its first collaboration with Valkyrie Drive by having the Paradise swimsuits included on its new set of cards. The swimsuits used are Siren, Lorelei and Otohime. Pretty random if you ask me but I won't complain.

I'd expect for the Mermaid and Bhikhkuni swimsuits to show up down the line as well.

And by the same token, I hope this won't be the last collaboration between the two series.

You know, it's incredible how much more attractive the Bhikhkuni girls are compared to the Mermaid girls. The Mermaid girls look...greasy.

I just found this

http://yahoo-mbga.jp/avatar/gachax/QEFm3rNp?_ref=aff%3Devg0000160

I'm not entirely sure what it is, an avatar creator? A dress up doll game?

But most importantly? How can I create my own avatars?

They're adorable

Still no idea why they had to make the games main pairing incestuous >>

Faust posted:

Edit: Just in case, i was sarcastic about calling it "subtext" by the way. I wouldn't call ALL THAT GAY ASS SHIT subtext. Hence the quote marks.

On whole topic of subtext, I really hate how the meaning and use of the word changed. To me subtext is not less valid than text, because the whole reason it is called subtext is because there is some text in it. It's just not blatant and you have to be more observant to catch it (or get yuri vibes from everything gay like me). So yes, even if show isn't yuri and have just 1 character showing up some subtext, it isn't any less valid than show focused on romance, because w/e cynical or not, creators put it there so there is some text in their actions. At least that is how I look at it most of the time. W/e the intention, if to me character feels gay, then to me it is part of them. Seriously because of the whole "subtext is evil" and treating it as only queerbait unless they say otherwise, a lot good shows suffer, because people are too focused on wanting more from it than enjoying the things that show does have in itself. Best example from top of my head is Swap Swap, where the MC was gay af and there was a lot of subtext, and I was perfectly fine with it and interperting her as a lesbian without anyone having to confirm it to me, but there was a ton of "helpful" people bashing it, saying it is only subtext, and it will never go anywhere and they are straight (jokes on them, because I heard from friend later we got confirmation about at least 2 girls being actual couple). So yes, to me subtext means there is text, it is just done subtle. That being said...

Minutoh posted:

I just think it would have been better if they made it even more blatant than it actually is and actually said they were dating or whatever. I'm sure there are some who deny Cocona and Papika are together; in doing so, they pretty much misssed the entire point of the fucking series, but I don't think even the most hardcore idiots can deny that "yeah, we're gay and we're dating" means that THE CHARACTERS IN QUESTION ARE GAY AND THEY'RE DATING. I suppose you could argue that there's no need to hammer it into these people's heads, but I can't say that I'm not frustrated when someone completely misses all the subtext...

Pretty much this. I don't mind subtext, but there is really not enough shows that outright states or confirm couples in a way nobody can deny it. I'm tired of defending subtext shows and wish there were more where I don't have to convince people or say "it's not confirmed but it's pretty gay", because show itself would leave no room for interpretation. But I guess ignoring w/e yuri sells or not, until Japan change and finally start acknowledging homosexual relationships as something normal, I guess there is long time before it changes and we all know how slow and unwilling for change Japan is.

I used to be like that before I got into yuri, I missed all the Korrasami signs back when I was watching Korra (I wonder how different my reactions to their interactions would have been if Korra had aired after I had become a yuri fanatic...)

Korrasami is a whole other can of worms. You have no reason to feel bad for not catching it, because there was basically like one scene in entire series (ignoring ending) that had any subtext at all and suggested they start to feel attracted to each other. I had entire rant about it in other Korra thread, I can find it if you want.

Rain Spectre posted:

You know, it's incredible how much more attractive the Bhikhkuni girls are compared to the Mermaid girls. The Mermaid girls look...greasy.

My main 3 problems with Mermaid girls are: huge boobs, huge boobs and huge boobs. In that exact order.

Rain Spectre posted:

Still no idea why they had to make the games main pairing incestuous >>

I fail to find anything wrong with that.

It's not just the giant breasts that are in no way proportional to the girls bodies, it's something about the girls clothing style, skin texture and other such matters that makes them...unpleasant to look at. It's hard to describe.

Also, I'd question that incest comment, but I'd rather not go down that route.

last edited at Aug 24, 2017 5:38PM

Rain Spectre posted:

It's not just the giant breasts that are in no way proportional to the girls bodies, it's something about the girls clothing style, skin texture and other such matters that makes them...unpleasant to look at. It's hard to describe.

It was what bothered me the most so I didn't really pay more attention to other stuff.

Also, I'd question that incest comment, but I'd rather not go down that route.

I simply don't think love between 2 people that happened to be related by blood should be treated as taboo, since they are probably the ones that are most aware of the fact how uncommon and weird it is, so what right other people have to give them more problems (and especially when it is 2 girls, I don't see how it is a bad thing).

Still no idea why they had to make the games main pairing incestuous >>

Yeah, that bothered me a lot. Almost didn't buy the game because of it.

I'd like to hope that wasn't Takaki's idea, because I respect him too much to think he'd go there.

I'd like to hope that wasn't Takaki's idea, because I respect him too much to think he'd go there.

Likewise. He's the hero of our time.

It's especially galling since, besides LN trash like OreImo and really, really obscure stuff, this might one of the only cases of sibling related incest portrayed in a positive light in JP media. (Cousins don't count because they're legal in much of Asia)

last edited at Aug 25, 2017 12:09AM

My main 3 problems with Mermaid girls are: huge boobs, huge boobs and huge boobs. In that exact order.

To be fair, there's a good amount of variety regarding boob sizes on Mermaid. The only outright titty monsters are Mirei, J, Torino and Akira. And I'm pretty sure Akira's boobage is mostly for the laughs.

It's not just the giant breasts that are in no way proportional to the girls bodies, it's something about the girls clothing style, skin texture and other such matters that makes them...unpleasant to look at. It's hard to describe.

The artstyle of Kaneko and Mana Wara are different to begin with, Wara going for a more Painting/Pin up approach while Kaneko is more about something visually striking. I like them both since I feel they both enrich the setting though.

I'd like to hope that wasn't Takaki's idea, because I respect him too much to think he'd go there.

Well, Sister incest is something that he has touched to a certain degree on SK with the (admittedly messed up) relationship between the twins and Yagyu's infatuation with Hibari that stems from a misguided fraternal love from Yagyu's side.

The twins fall into the "villainous/disturbed" territory. As Hibari/Yagyuu...that's borderline, but they're not actual biological sisters, and it's only on Yagyu's side anyway.

That is my point, Takaki has toyed with the idea before and since one of the reasons he developed VD in the first place is to do things he couldn't do with SK, well...

Can someone explain why the hell incest is an acceptable field of interest?

Rain Spectre posted:

Can someone explain why the hell incest is an acceptable field of interest?

The thinking behind them in Japanese media, is that because they're highly socially unacceptable, incestuous relationships theoretically require a greater commitment from both partners than other kind of romantic relationship, instilling a sense of extreme emotional intensity in the viewer.

In the context of this discussion because being fictional characters the ones involved, is completely harmless.