This story is by no means extraordinary, there are many plot devices that try to propel the story forward, along with some melodramatic cliffhangers to maintain the "suspense", however realistically all of this clustered development just doesn't pull through in the long-term. Nevertheless Citrus does provide some entertainment, the aesthetic style earns some merit and my guilty pleasure of seeing their inevitable matchup is still rewarding . But with all this adolescent petty behaviour, it's rather tiring to manage.

This is purely a subjective response...

last edited at Feb 1, 2014 1:30AM

How is it bad?

Read the first line of my comment again.

Also, Twilight was freaking terrible

Don't you think people who liked Twilight would say the same you're saying Citrus?

Mei's father reminds me of Ishimaru Kiyotaka from Danganronpa mixed with Phoenix Wright from Ace Attorney.
It's probably because of the posture and facial expression.

http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/citrus_ch07#32

last edited at Feb 1, 2014 1:36AM

That's because it is. There is a very large difference between "like" and "good", most people don't understand that. Quality (a.k.a. good) is objective, while "like" (or enjoyment value) is subjective. Citrus' story is bad, that's a fact. But that does not mean people can't like it.

I know how to judge a story based on it's merits alone, and Citrus does not hold up. You are also confusing "slow development" with "bad development". Citrus so far has been like a strong of one shots with characters that look and act similar. No conflict or event lasts more than a chapter, and said event or conflict is always brought up at the end of the previous chapter. e.g. Mei's dad shows up at the end of the last chapters and is gone by the end of this one.

Personally, I wouldn't say that something like 'consistency/duration of overarching conflict' has all that much to do with what defines "good writing" (or in fact, I don't think I would necessarily even agree that Citrus lacks it), but the main point I want to get at is that the idea of "good writing" is even objective (or has a strict definition) in the first place.

The thing is, while I agree that a qualifier like "good" has some objective connotations (and also agree that, by any definition, Citrus is pretty unlikely to fall under most people's conception of "good writing" anyway; that's different from saying Citrus has "bad writing", however), I feel that ultimately the perception of "good writing" is a subjective matter.

In fact, I think the fundamental experience people associate with a phrase like "good writing" is something subjective and emotional. "Good writing" is simply writing which surpasses people's expectations, often transcending original prejudices, and "forces" a reader/viewer to acknowledge the quality of a work beyond their intentions. In fact, I think the idea of 'objectively' evaluating a piece of writing by certain predefined metrics or qualities is something totally unnatural to the act of reading, possessing no inherent point, and probably a myth made up by pompous people. Except in the case of evaluating a work by the metric of "appeal" or marketability (something ultimately still dependent on one's subjective conception of what 'appeals' to others), I think the "quality" or "goodness" of a piece of work is always directly related to the reader's emotional response.

I would say that the experience of being "forced" to acknowledge a work beyond one's initial prejudices or expectations is probably what lends the objective air to people's experiences/conceptions of "good writing". However, the obvious issue is that a person's initial prejudices/expectations are of course subjective in the first place. The quality of 'good' writing then ultimately really lies in a work's ability to induce just that experience in its readers/viewers -- the ability to surpass people's expectations and expand their consciousness. However, as the individual reasons for such a response will always be subjective, there can be no strict universal definition of "good writing".

All this basically to say, that in the end your definition of "bad writing" is also subjective. Although it's possible to define many 'objective' metrics for writing, and Citrus in fact would probably fare poorly by many of them, ultimately which metrics actually matter to other people or could unquestionably be attributed to an objective 'quality' of the work is totally subjective, or more accurately, undefinable.

last edited at Feb 1, 2014 2:03AM

Personally, I wouldn't say that something like 'consistency/duration of overarching conflict' has all that much to do with what defines "good writing"
Personally
I

Well, you'd be wrong, and you're already in the wrong mind set. personal opinion has nothing to do with it.

people associate with a phrase like "good writing" is something subjective and emotional.

Which is also wrong, people misusing terminology is nothing new.

I think the "quality" or "goodness" of a piece of work is always directly related to the reader's emotional response.

See previous point.

there can be no strict universal definition of "good writing".

There is, people have just endlessly blurred the line between what they like and what is good. There have always been predefined standards as to what qualifies well written.

The problem with your stance is that if everything is objective you'd have to put the doodle I make on a napkin while I'm waiting at a restaurant on the same level as historical masterpieces because it can also appeal to a certain crowd of people.

What this boils down to is your excessive use of personal pronouns. That proves you are not able to separate what you personally think from an objective criteria.

last edited at Feb 1, 2014 2:29AM

Hey guys, I'm not a mod so I can't really tell you what to talk about and what not to, but I'd like to point out that you will get nowhere arguing this. Quality or "good writing" being subjective is really a given, and you don't need to use the Citrus discussion thread to argue with somebody insisting otherwise.

Quality or "good writing" being subjective is really a given

I'll just quote myself here.

people have just endlessly blurred the line between what they like and what is good.

Thanks for providing an example.

Wait... so now that the manga is liscensed that means we are not having any more citrus online????! ..I'm not from the U.S so it's not like i can randomly go out and buy it! (i wish i could :c ) and even if i order it online it takes AGES for stuff to come -.- .. please can someone make it clear?

we are not having any more citrus online?

Yuri Project didn't say anything about dropping it, so they'll keep releasing new chapters. Only the first volume (four chapters) is licensed, so Dynasty may take down those chapters from the reader. You can still download them from Yuri Project if you want to hold onto them.

Well, you'd be wrong, and you're already in the wrong mind set. personal opinion has nothing to do with it.

people associate with a phrase like "good writing" is something subjective and emotional.

The idea is, if the 'objective' standards associated with good writing don't have any effect on me emotionally, then why should I care about it? Why should anybody care about it? Fundamentally, the only value an evaluation of the "goodness" of a piece of writing has is in its predictive quality towards favourable responses from other people, as communication. As the "quality" of a piece of work only has meaning towards the (subjective) individuals experiencing it, that quality is fundamentally subjective (and in fact, holds no meaning if it is not subjective on some level).

There is, people have just endlessly blurred the line between what they like and what is good. There have always been predefined standards as to what qualifies well written.

I'll acknowledge your use of "always" as an exaggeration ;P. If you really claim that there are such standards, then the question is who defined them and why they matter, particularly in claiming exclusive domain over such universal terms as "good".

The problem with your stance is that if everything is objective you'd have to put the doodle I make on a napkin while I'm waiting at a restaurant on the same level as historical masterpieces because it can also appeal to a certain crowd of people.

The implicit position you've assumed that "historical" masterpieces have particular value is already a subjective judgement. While I might feel an equal gap between the quality of a doodle on a napkin and things which I would consider good writing, canonicity is really one of the least predictors of "good writing" by my perspective.

Which is to say, objectively there really is no difference between historical "masterpieces" and doodles on a napkin. Because objectivity is not bound to any individual (or more particularly, even (implicitly) a human) perspective. The only reason why such a comparison would bother you is that you're clinging to this very concept of "objectivity". In fact, I for one have absolutely no problem valuing works I prefer over some random doodle on a napkin, and communicating so to others. The reason is simply that I can often assume that the values of a person I am speaking to will be closer to mine than that of someone who will value doodles on napkins. Essentially, I make use of the expected relationality between my perspective and the person I am speaking with. However, in the end this does nothing to change the fact that the values which I wish to communicate are subjective.

Which ultimately comes down to the issue: your evaluations of Citrus might be subjective, but they are just as valid as anybody else's. Certainly it is not even inaccurate to say that many people probably do share your perspective that Citrus has bad writing. It is not like it is impossible for you to have communicated your values in a relatable way. However, the question is, what did you plan/wish to achieve with your communication? What do you wish to affect by stating your perspective? Because the result was, by attempting to place your opinion in such a way in a realm beyond its subjective value as shared by other posters, not only did you stifle the productive possibilities of discussion, your own position also became that much more unfeasible.

last edited at Feb 1, 2014 3:15AM

Did you guys all forget about Yuzu's background from ch. 1? She was a 'gal'/gyaru in with the 'popular' crowd back in her old school, who were all obsessed about having boyfriends. The new character is obviously one of Yuzu's 'friends' from back then who might do some nasty stuff if she finds out Yuzu is into a girl now. I guess a love triangle isn't totally impossible but I think the setup is leaning much more towards prejudice/discrimination.

I dont think she's a friend, look at the picture on the phone in the last page, she's definitely younger than Yuzu.

Well... put everything aside, this chapter kiss scene is really hot ♥_♥

effect on me
me

There you go with the personal pronouns again. Why do you think the phrase "bad taste" came to exist in the first place? Even it has no meaning no one would have ever thought of it.

Which is to say, objectively there really is no difference between historical "masterpieces" and doodles on a napkin.

I'm sorry, but this is bar none the dumbest thing I've read in the past week. There are many art techniques that can objectively measure; brush stroke, object orientation, color deviation/blurring, perspective, ect ect. The list goes on for a while.

And knowing both what constitutes objective value and being able to separate it from what you personally like is not exactly simple. Which is why a majority of people don't understand it. Thus the popularity of things like Twilight, Sword Art Online, and the likes.

But, bearing in mind that statement about masterpieces this is clearly beyond pointless, and I will refer to my second post in this thread. And end it with that.

effect on me
me

There you go with the personal pronouns again. Why do you think the phrase "bad taste" came to exist in the first place? Even it has no meaning no one would have ever thought of it.

? The phrase "bad taste" has subjective value between a certain set of people, and is used because those people wish to communicate that value. Just because an idea has meaning doesn't mean it's objective.

Which is to say, objectively there really is no difference between historical "masterpieces" and doodles on a napkin.

I'm sorry, but this is bar none the dumbest thing I've read in the past week. There are many art techniques that can objectively measure; brush stroke, object orientation, color deviation/blurring, perspective, ect ect. The list goes on for a while.

As I mentioned before, although many objective metrics to measure art by exists, there is no objective basis for determining why (or which of) those metrics matter. In the first place, there is no point in objectively evaluating any work if that evaluation cannot be used to predict the (subjective) responses of other people.

You've also got a pretty clueless conception of objectivity if you cannot see the meaning behind the statement that historical masterpieces are objectively equal to doodles on a napkin. Your concept of 'objectivity' is taking a fundamentally human perspective regarding artistic quality. If, say, you were a rock, or a bird, the difference between human masterpieces or doodles would have absolutely no meaning to you. However, from an objective perspective, there is zero difference in value between your perspective or that of a rock or a bird's. Having managed to misuse the term 'objective' so blatantly makes you no better than the "abusers of language" you were previously talking about.

I wonder if you realized yet that you're claiming everything is subjective, even the definition of objective. Which is pretty funny when you think about it.

Okay, that's really the last thing I'm going to say.

Thus the popularity of things like Twilight, Sword Art Online, and the likes.

Omg can we be friends? Sorry it's just the first time I've seen someone (besides my sister) say SAO was terrible even though it is so popular.

Honestly I don't know why the hell I'm reading something as bad as this. Ok that's a lie, I do know why and it's because I just want to see the two hot characters make out and have a happy ending. The problem I have with Citrus, is the storytelling. There are good ideas and themes, but it's executed so poorly. The pacing is so whacked up that most of the time I end up finishing a chapter going "What the hell did I just read?" For example, the last two pages of chapter 8 came out of nowhere without any fade in or outs that I had to do a double take to make sure I was reading the same manga. I sorta thought it was a preview for another manga lol.

Anyway, I'm pretty ashamed that I look forward to this series, but what can I say? It's a guilty pleasure for me haha. In it for pretty shallow reasons...It's just a shame that the pacing could be better and I hope the mangaka tones down the sexual harassment to none at all. Sexual harassment does not all of a sudden become acceptable or sexy just because they're both girls. And we should not be "used to it" just because it's a common theme in manga. >_> 'side eyes some commenter who mentioned something along these lines in a previous comment'

last edited at Feb 1, 2014 4:21AM

Language is a construct developed to facilitate communication between the limited consciousnesses of humans, so yes, of course the definition of 'objective' (along with all other human values) is subjective. The only 'objective' truths which lie beyond the fragmented deficiencies of language are tautologies found in absolute logical domains like math.

Human language is useful because it relies on the relatedness of the subjective perspectives of its participants, not objectivity. This especially is the case for such fundamentally undefinable concepts as "good". All 'objective' discourse or measurements only gain meaning at the point where they are finally related back to some subjective perspective or value system. By attempting to use the word "good" to cut out the perspectives of other valid participants of the conversation, you fundamentally undermine the usefulness of the construct "good" in the discourse.

Thus the popularity of things like Twilight, Sword Art Online, and the likes.

Omg can we be friends? Sorry it's just the first time I've seen someone (besides my sister) say SAO was terrible even though it is so popular.

Honestly I don't know why the hell I'm reading something as bad as this. Ok that's a lie, I do know why and it's because I just want to see the two hot characters make out and have a happy ending. The problem I have with Citrus, is the storytelling. There are good ideas and themes, but it's executed so poorly. The pacing is so whacked up that most of the time I end up finishing a chapter going "What the hell did I just read?"
Sorry mate the problem is in yours, not the manga.

If you watched this to see two hot pseudo-sisters making out. But then you were distracted by things like story or pacing. Then you have done it wrong!!

My case for example. Do i care about Mei's stupid father and his role in shaping Mei's character? Hell no!! I will take teenager's complicated hormone as an answer instead of 'abandoning-by-father-turning-you-into-a-kiss-machine cooldere' thingy that the author tried to pass to us. But it won't be matter. This chapter we see an almost-broken Mei begging for sex. Followed by hot and steamy touchy. Then things ended with a hot make-out and some romantic plot development. 10/10. A good plot/ storyline would have distracted me from all that :P

last edited at Feb 1, 2014 4:55AM

How is it bad?

Read the first line of my comment again.

You went from sub-par to bad. Wanted to know why is all.

Also, Twilight was freaking terrible

Don't you think people who liked Twilight would say the same you're saying Citrus?

I never said Citrus was a good story but I never said it was terrible either. It's bad or sub-par at best (whichever definition you go by lol) but I read it for entertainment value. It's not going down as a "classic" by my standards but it's certainly a lot better than a fair number of stories I've come across here despite its flaws.

I dont think she's a friend, look at the picture on the phone in the last page, she's definitely younger than Yuzu.

Now that you say that, she could have been that, "cute underclassmen" type or something O_o... (Now when I look at the panel where she's talking about visiting Yuzu I have the Jaws theme playing in my head!)

Omg can we be friends? Sorry it's just the first time I've seen someone (besides my sister) say SAO was terrible even though it is so popular.

I don't like Attack on Titan, does that count as going against the trend??

Honestly I don't know why the hell I'm reading something as bad as this. Ok that's a lie, I do know why and it's because I just want to see the two hot characters make out and have a happy ending. The problem I have with Citrus, is the storytelling. There are good ideas and themes, but it's executed so poorly. The pacing is so whacked up that most of the time I end up finishing a chapter going "What the hell did I just read?" For example, the last two pages of chapter 8 came out of nowhere without any fade in or outs that I had to do a double take to make sure I was reading the same manga. I sorta thought it was a preview for another manga lol.

Anyway, I'm pretty ashamed that I look forward to this series, but what can I say? It's a guilty pleasure for me haha. In it for pretty shallow reasons...It's just a shame that the pacing could be better and I hope the mangaka tones down the sexual harassment to none at all. Sexual harassment does not all of a sudden become acceptable or sexy just because they're both girls. And we should not be "used to it" just because it's a common theme in manga. >_> 'side eyes some commenter who mentioned something along these lines in a previous comment'

Hear hear!

I said this in my first post of the thread (pg.7):

Also, this story reminds me of most shoujo stories. By that I mean when the main guy force kisses the main girl after doing some kidnap-like action where he tackles the girl in a private area after grabbing her when she least expects it. And out of all of that the girl somehow ends up liking the guy completely ignoring his actions.

But like you, I read it. And mostly to see how it turns out and not because it's a good, well written story ;)

Omg can we be friends? Sorry it's just the first time I've seen someone (besides my sister) say SAO was terrible even though it is so popular.

Of course we can. But you should know it's pretty well established in most circles of the internet that SAO awful.

Seriously?? Where have you heard this? Most people I run into say it was great. I haven't watched it yet myself because I missed it when it was released. I read up plot synopsis...es (SP???) and reviews and the stuff I read really turned me off. I suppose it's good to not watch it then?

That matsuri girl has the same necklace with yuzu ?

Yuri tension gives me the yuri boner.

http://postimg.org/image/bhjclkjbl/

OMG SAME NECKLACE

You went from sub-par to bad.

Sub par is bad, There's no real difference, and I don't like to repeat the same word to many times.

Seriously?? Where

Mmm, pretty much any place that's not for casuals. /a/. anidb, ect ect.

Omg can we be friends? Sorry it's just the first time I've seen someone (besides my sister) say SAO was terrible even though it is so popular.

Of course we can. But you should know it's pretty well established in most circles of the internet that SAO awful.

Seriously?? Where have you heard this? Most people I run into say it was great. I haven't watched it yet myself because I missed it when it was released. I read up plot synopsis...es (SP???) and reviews and the stuff I read really turned me off. I suppose it's good to not watch it then?

Haha I must be in the wrong circles then because most comments I've come across sang praises. It had a good start and good ideas, but again executed poorly and pacing also bad for me (don't know if you can tell, but I look a lot into the pacing of a story lol). Also sick and tired of reducing strong female characters like Asuna into weak ones that depend on the male lead (Kirito) to save the day.

Honestly I don't know why the hell I'm reading something as bad as this. Ok that's a lie, I do know why and it's because I just want to see the two hot characters make out and have a happy ending. The problem I have with Citrus, is the storytelling. There are good ideas and themes, but it's executed so poorly. The pacing is so whacked up that most of the time I end up finishing a chapter going "What the hell did I just read?"
Sorry mate the problem is in yours, not the manga.

If you watched this to see two hot pseudo-sisters making out. But then you were distracted by things like story or pacing. Then you have done it wrong!!

My case for example. Do i care about Mei's stupid father and his role in shaping Mei's character? Hell no!! I will take teenager's complicated hormone as an answer instead of 'abandoning-by-father-turning-you-into-a-kiss-machine cooldere' thingy that the author tried to pass to us. But it won't be matter. This chapter we see an almost-broken Mei begging for sex. Followed by hot and steamy touchy. Then things ended with a hot make-out and some romantic plot development. 10/10. A good plot/ storyline would have distracted me from all that :P

Haha I can do that if I'm reading something purely for the pornz, but the author intended there to be a story so I have to take it at face value and judge everything we are given. Besides, there are hentais that have executed a better storyline than this so that's no excuse to slack on half assed attempts at a cohesive story. But considering how popular this series is, its formula is (unfortunately) working out pretty well for most of the population...

But! I do have to say I really liked the ending kiss of this chapter. Finally a kiss that meant something and was of consent from both parties! That is what I'm still reading this for lol. I just want a happy ending ;_;

last edited at Feb 1, 2014 5:55AM

http://postimg.org/image/bhjclkjbl/

OMG SAME NECKLACE

MY GOD, YOU'RE RIGHT.