Japan is the biggest exporter of "yuri" works

They're really not. Manga and anime just have way more exposure on this site.

All I am saying is that looking at this (and other titles of its like) and complaining about yuri as a genre because of it is kind of pointless, as they're not sold as being yuri manga. They're sold as moe slice of life, and any yuri elements that happen to be present are played up pretty much entirely as fan service or a gag. If you or someone else wants to label them yuri, you're free to, but going on to use it as a general example of yuri as a genre being this or that is moot because you're the one who labeled it yuri.

Like labeling, say, to-love-ru as an h-manga and commenting on the nature of h-manga in general based on to-love-ru.

I am sure there are plenty of other appropriate examples you could find if you want to complain about Japan sucking at the yuri genre. But it looks silly when you point at things that were never seriously meant to be yuri to begin with as your example.

All I am saying is that looking at this (and other titles of its like) and complaining about yuri as a genre because of it is kind of pointless, as they're not sold as being yuri manga.

Yeah, that’s very relevant here. A lot of series we get into as “yuri” aren’t presented that way, and while they might turn into yuri they aren’t bound to go that way up to that point. Kanamemo I think would be a good example, it’s got a yuri sidecouple, but is it really A Yuri Series until the MC and the girl who likes her actually make more than vague, subtext-y moves?

As to the distinction between “yuri” and “lesbian” works, how laughable all that is. I’d be very surprised if many, or even any, Japanese creators make that distinction, in much the way they don’t make a distinction of whether “anime” is from Japan, France, the US or wherever. Claiming “lesbian” has no part in a genre defined by romantic and sexual attraction between girls is frankly silly, and it’s a genre that only grew up the way it did because of a very conservative society that looked down on homosexual relations, not some special, exotic quality of the genre. The subtlety isn’t magic, it’s trying to sneak stuff in under the wire.

These are not political stories.

That one made me laugh out loud, seriously. Is Korra x Asami a political story? How about Princess Bubblegum x Marceline? Oh, Ruby x Sapphire must be, right, or at least Pearl’s one-sided feelings? How about the entirety of Carmilla? Because that’s what we’re talking about when we talk about lesbian stories, which honestly are only “political” because they exist at all in a homophobic culture (which thankfully has gotten a lot less so).

As for this one:

If there's only sex, or the romance is only a pretext for lots of sex, it's called lesbian porn.

That’s about the dumbest thing I’ve seen all week, and I’ve read Trump’s twitter feed. Somebody better tell Mira, Ooshima Tomo, Sekihara and Kurogane Ken that they aren’t doing yuri. I imagine they’ll be shocked to find out.

Seriously, you’re the first person I’ve ever seen make that distinction.

If there's only sex, or the romance is only a pretext for lots of sex, it's called lesbian porn.

That’s about the dumbest thing I’ve seen all week, and I’ve read Trump’s twitter feed.

Seriously, you’re the first person I’ve ever seen make that distinction.

There's a first for everything.

Not all works of these authors are porn, and even some parts of the worst of them can be considered yuri. But I think that when it ventures into porn territory, with lots of fluids and censor bars everywhere, that kind of thing, it becomes a show for the voyeur reader and the feelings between the characters take a backseat. The emotion, for me, is gone and it's a turn off.

For example, there's a single sex scene in Girlfriends. We see almost nothing and yet it manages to convey that the characters are doing it with feelings and emotion. That's what I call proper yuri.

As for your adjectives concerning the opinion of others, you can keep them to yourself. See Rule #1 in the sticky?

last edited at Dec 21, 2015 10:32AM

I believe the manga this thread belongs to, Swap ⇔ Swap, is another perfect example of manga some people think is yuri, it's even tagged as such but in practice it's not really yuri, just a moe slice of life about two girls changing bodies with one having breast envy, some mentioned how gay she is but the only reason she acts like that is for her lack of assets not because she's attracted to girls.

last edited at Dec 21, 2015 10:29AM

I believe the manga this thread belongs to, Swap ⇔ Swap, is another perfect example of manga some people think is yuri, it's even tagged as such but in practice it's not really yuri, just a moe slice of life about two girls changing bodies with one having breast envy, some mentioned how gay she is but the only reason she acts like that is for her lack of assets not because she's attracted to girls.

It's a moe slice of life involving two female mcs who swap bodies by KISSING each other
Y'all are getting so distracted by the definition of yuri and what it EXACTLY involves that you're failing to see the big picture.
Swap ⇔ Swap is gay enough for me and I enjoy it and its gags that HAPPEN to involve homosexual acts and insinuations between the characters

Faust posted:

Swap ⇔ Swap is gay enough for me and I enjoy it and its gags that HAPPEN to involve homosexual acts and insinuations between the characters

Exactly. Can we go back to discussing actual manga? Not definition of Yuri? (And if you want to, make a proper thread for it? Just a thought.)

last edited at Dec 21, 2015 11:28AM

Sorry but just because they kiss don't mean anything, it's not a big deal for them, it's true that this manga is very gay but like you said all homosexual acts and insinuations are gags and nothing more, maybe they will become a couple later but until that happens it don't matter how gay they act because they're not gay.

And I agree with Nevri, maybe make a thread to continue this discussion, the thread was derailed enough.

last edited at Dec 21, 2015 11:37AM

Sure, they're not overtly gay. But they're also not overtly straight. So let's call it Schrodinger's Homosexuality.

Haha, Schrodinger's Homosexuality, I like it, though I have to admit this manga is way more gay than any other slice of life I remember, I can totally see that Ichinose desire for breasts is because she's gay instead of simple envy, really, if any slice of life have chance of becoming yuri is definitely this one, specially because Tomekichi did a lot of yaoi trap before, there's hope!

last edited at Dec 21, 2015 12:22PM

moguTL posted:

Sure, they're not overtly gay. But they're also not overtly straight. So let's call it Schrodinger's Homosexuality.

Schrodinger's Homosexuality

I love this waaaaaaaaaaay more than subtext

I was one of the starters of this discussion, sorry about that... My point was influenced by works like Shinozaki San, Valkyrie drive and yuru yuri and this thread was like my boiling point because they bait is so strong is ridiculous that someone can come and say "this isn't yuri".

If someone create a new thread, I would like to discuss the importance of verbal confirmation, "A picture speaks more than 1000 words" well.. Not with yuri!

Sure, they're not overtly gay. But they're also not overtly straight. So let's call it Schrodinger's Homosexuality.

Is the yuri alive or dead?

twizbuck posted:

Sure, they're not overtly gay. But they're also not overtly straight. So let's call it Schrodinger's Homosexuality.

Is the yuri alive or dead?

Schrodinger's Yuri?

So if yuri suffers Schrodinger's Homosexuality does that mean the box is an analogy for japan and their homophobic mentality rooted in their society and opening the box, which kills the cat, represents their resistance to the fact that homosexual relationships are normal and their insistence with excuse that it goes against their culture, traditions and family values by trying to prevent any attempt to give gays their rights?

So if yuri suffers Schrodinger's Homosexuality does that mean the box is an analogy for japan and their homophobic mentality rooted in their society and opening the box, which kills the cat, represents their resistance to the fact that homosexual relationships are normal and their insistence with excuse that it goes against their culture, traditions and family values by trying to prevent any attempt to give gays their rights?

The box is manga. You have to open it and read to the end to see if the yuri is alive or not.

I was one of the starters of this discussion, sorry about that... My point was influenced by works like Shinozaki San, Valkyrie drive and yuru yuri and this thread was like my boiling point because they bait is so strong is ridiculous that someone can come and say "this isn't yuri".

Well, I'm not saying that this can in no way ever be considered yuri. Just that, since it wasn't really created for the purpose of being a yuri story, taking it as representative of yuri in general and discussing yuri as a genre based on it doesn't really make sense.

That's how the yuri wave function collapsed in Stretch.

We read it to the end, the box was opened, and yuri was, indeed, dead.

We cannot predict exactly how gay someone is, only the probabilities.

none posted:

So if yuri suffers Schrodinger's Homosexuality does that mean the box is an analogy for japan and their homophobic mentality rooted in their society and opening the box, which kills the cat, represents their resistance to the fact that homosexual relationships are normal and their insistence with excuse that it goes against their culture, traditions and family values by trying to prevent any attempt to give gays their rights?

The box is manga. You have to open it and read to the end to see if the yuri is alive or not.

But manga is nothing more than a box inside a bigger box called society.

moguTL posted:

Just that, since it wasn't really created for the purpose of being a yuri story, taking it as representative of yuri in general and discussing yuri as a genre based on it doesn't really make sense.

Does anybody here says it? We don't say "Look! It is the perfect example of Yuri! Every story should be like that!". We just say "Look! It is funny and they are deliciously gay to boot! It would be nice if main leads at least become a couple".

none posted:

So if yuri suffers Schrodinger's Homosexuality does that mean the box is an analogy for japan and their homophobic mentality rooted in their society and opening the box, which kills the cat, represents their resistance to the fact that homosexual relationships are normal and their insistence with excuse that it goes against their culture, traditions and family values by trying to prevent any attempt to give gays their rights?

The box is manga. You have to open it and read to the end to see if the yuri is alive or not.

But manga is nothing more than a box inside a bigger box called society.

Our topic, however, is the nested box.

Does anybody here says it? We don't say "Look! It is the perfect example of Yuri! Every story should be like that!". We just say "Look! It is funny and they are deliciously gay to boot! It would be nice if main leads at least become a couple".

It was the opposite, really. Considering basically the entire discussion kicked off with me responding to someone complaining that this is a shitty example of the yuri genre.

But manga is nothing more than a box inside a bigger box called society.

Everything can change depending on your reference frame.

moguTL posted:

Does anybody here says it? We don't say "Look! It is the perfect example of Yuri! Every story should be like that!". We just say "Look! It is funny and they are deliciously gay to boot! It would be nice if main leads at least become a couple".

It was the opposite, really. Considering basically the entire discussion kicked off with me responding to someone complaining that this is a shitty example of the yuri genre.

I don't remember how it started, but now I want it to end. Seriously go and make new thread or stop now (and I mean everyone taking part in discussion). From 8 pages, 5 are about true meaning of Yuri.

last edited at Dec 21, 2015 3:13PM

But we can never really know the true form of yuri. We are in a dark cave, and only seeing an image of yuri projected from a computer screen.

But we can never really know the true form of yuri. We are in a dark cave, and only seeing an image of yuri projected from a computer screen.

I'm not sure Plato mixes well with quantum physics.