Hello, I'm an undergraduate student & card-carrying himejoshi investigating the difference in author/audience perceptions between Yuri and GL for an informal research paper. As such, I've prepared a 21-question multiple-choice survey polling audience perspective & preferences, if anyone is willing to take a minute out of their day to fill it out: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScR5xls9B0AT1KxNxsGdeeIU5q6FWgsHGYQhSYDExdHu2h6tA/viewform

The results of my research will not be published academically, but if I get a good amount of responses I might throw something together to share here on dynastyscans for those interested. The survey will be open for a week or two, or until I have deemed the volume of responses to be sufficient. Thank you all!

"Yuri VS GL", what in the semantics...

"Yuri VS GL", what in the semantics...

The point of the survey is, indeed, semantics! I found myself surprised by some interviews with authors who seemed to posit a tangible difference between the two, so I chose to direct my research towards finding out why they create this dichotomy, and if it is justified. If you think Yuri and GL are the same genre, I still want to hear about that. The survey is formatted so that you can answer as such if you so desire, and there is one optional long-answer question for you to call my research stupid if you really want to.

"Yuri VS GL", what in the semantics...

The point of the survey is, indeed, semantics! I found myself surprised by some interviews with authors who seemed to posit a tangible difference between the two, so I chose to direct my research towards finding out why they create this dichotomy, and if it is justified. If you think Yuri and GL are the same genre, I still want to hear about that. The survey is formatted so that you can answer as such if you so desire, and there is one optional long-answer question for you to call my research stupid if you really want to.

That's interesting to know, thank you for explaining!

I'm not interested in filling it since it requires email, but I'd still like to voice my opinion that no, they aren't really the same. First in the sense that I have observed GL to be used for works of various origins, while yuri is a term that strictly refers to works of Japanese origins (despite the relatively recent misuse of it to describe anything lesbian or even to describe western works, which I find to be nonsensical, it's not a funny way to say "lesbian", it's a Japanese work genre, that like its chinese equivalent baihe, indicates where the work originated from)

And second in the sense that yuri doesn't necessarily mean a romance that follows norms (yes, even among gay people. But in anglophone spaces, it's specifically what the dominant voices, which often tend to be USAmericans, expect out of romance and the queerness surrounding it. I'm not saying being gay is what's considered "normal" or else homophobia wouldn't exist—but it's a fact that queer people can still impose expectations on others that don't come out of nowhere and are harmful to those who don't necessarily function like them), so GL can't describe the genre as a whole, it's simply something that can be present in yuri.

Even now, I think it's important to understand that we're having this discussion in English, which again, leads to discussions online being dominated by USAmericans—who tend to treat sexuality and/or gender labels as individual descriptors (that fits their culture) disconnected from society itself, exactly because a lot understand labels to be categories you only use because it makes you comfortable, and not as categories you are made into by society—and who like to classify characters as "representation" of a clear concept/demographic, when I think that can be rather limiting when exploring the complexities of non-conventional relationships between women and/or non-binary characters (that may still be described as yuri), which will come in a genre focused exactly on a gender minority with much more pressure on them to get involved in romance (especially of heterosexual nature) and dedicate their whole existence to it.
Like if a work is focused on aroace characters, that by default implies the absence of a conventional romance partially or completely, which is not going to fit GL, and it doesn't stop being yuri because what makes yuri is the portrayal of something strong between the women. In those works there's something that's unique to the characters, that they may not want to have labeled with a definition that comes with expectations they have no desire to live up to or simply doesn't fit them at all. A lot of those works that can be somewhat described as being aroace (and even this is an act of labeling that may not be exactly appropriate) explore exactly those expectations, and yes Urasekai Picnic is a good example of it, but I'm also thinking of Crescent Moon and Doughnuts and Accept My Fist of Love!

It really isn't as simple as many people in those spaces want it to be, so no, yuri and GL aren't the same, the same way yuri doesn't necessarily mean lesbian/bi (allo) characters. This is not to say there isn't an attempt at censoring yuri romance because of homophobia (or that works that don't end in romance are automatically censorship) because I know the many times lesbians have gotten censored in media, but that romance isn't the only deep bond being explored in the genre. Sometimes things are going to be nebulous, with neither wanting to put a name to it (Happened to me! And it wasn't friendship or romance), and just because it's not your experience, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's a theme we should be able to be explore without it being considered censorship or shoved back into the very thing it wants to question. It's why I like how broad yuri as a genre can be.

It's fine if people think that it's not that simple and that there's a significant difference between the terms, to me it's a lot the same old semantics we've been arguing about for years, and there's already pages of arguments about it on Dynasty alone. It's a debate that basically never goes anywhere, and people can have their perspective while I have mine, something something potayto, potahto lol

Have to opt out because of the login in as well, but I will put my thoughts anyway in case that helps. No, I don't think there's any distinction between yuri and GL and those who say otherwise are just talking out of their ass. From what I've seen I think that the people who use the GL label instead of yuri do it because they have weird hangs up about yuri "being for the male gaze" or "not about romance" or other such nonsense. You see Japanese and other Asian artists use the terms interchangeably.

girlswhokiss posted:

I'm not interested in filling it since it requires email, but I'd still like to voice my opinion that no, they aren't really the same. First in the sense that I have observed GL to be used for works of various origins, while yuri is a term that strictly refers to works of Japanese origins (despite the relatively recent misuse of it to describe anything lesbian or even to describe western works, which I find to be nonsensical, it's not a funny way to say "lesbian", it's a Japanese work genre, that like its chinese equivalent baihe, indicates where the work originated from)

And second in the sense that yuri doesn't necessarily mean a romance that follows norms (yes, even among gay people. But in anglophone spaces, it's specifically what the dominant voices, which often tend to be USAmericans, expect out of romance and the queerness surrounding it. I'm not saying being gay is what's considered "normal" or else homophobia wouldn't exist—but it's a fact that queer people can still impose expectations on others that don't come out of nowhere and are harmful to those who don't necessarily function like them), so GL can't describe the genre as a whole, it's simply something that can be present in yuri.

Even now, I think it's important to understand that we're having this discussion in English, which again, leads to discussions online being dominated by USAmericans—who tend to treat sexuality and/or gender labels as individual descriptors (that fits their culture) disconnected from society itself, exactly because a lot understand labels to be categories you only use because it makes you comfortable, and not as categories you are made into by society—and who like to classify characters as "representation" of a clear concept/demographic, when I think that can be rather limiting when exploring the complexities of non-conventional relationships between women and/or non-binary characters (that may still be described as yuri), which will come in a genre focused exactly on a gender minority with much more pressure on them to get involved in romance (especially of heterosexual nature) and dedicate their whole existence to it.
Like if a work is focused on aroace characters, that by default implies the absence of a conventional romance partially or completely, which is not going to fit GL, and it doesn't stop being yuri because what makes yuri is the portrayal of something strong between the women. In those works there's something that's unique to the characters, that they may not want to have labeled with a definition that comes with expectations they have no desire to live up to or simply doesn't fit them at all. A lot of those works that can be somewhat described as being aroace (and even this is an act of labeling that may not be exactly appropriate) explore exactly those expectations, and yes Urasekai Picnic is a good example of it, but I'm also thinking of Crescent Moon and Doughnuts and Accept My Fist of Love!

It really isn't as simple as many people in those spaces want it to be, so no, yuri and GL aren't the same, the same way yuri doesn't necessarily mean lesbian/bi (allo) characters. This is not to say there isn't an attempt at censoring yuri romance because of homophobia (or that works that don't end in romance are automatically censorship) because I know the many times lesbians have gotten censored in media, but that romance isn't the only deep bond being explored in the genre. Sometimes things are going to be nebulous, with neither wanting to put a name to it (Happened to me! And it wasn't friendship or romance), and just because it's not your experience, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's a theme we should be able to be explore without it being considered censorship or shoved back into the very thing it wants to question. It's why I like how broad yuri as a genre can be.

i agree with all of this

responded to the survey, but i'll put my take here as well: GL is a publishing genre and refers pretty exclusively to original works. yuri is the base concept and encompasses all of that plus doujin etc works. so all GL is yuri, but not all yuri meets the criteria of GL. this as far as i know is how it's used in japan

responded to the survey, but i'll put my take here as well: GL is a publishing genre and refers pretty exclusively to original works. yuri is the base concept and encompasses all of that plus doujin etc works. so all GL is yuri, but not all yuri meets the criteria of GL. this as far as i know is how it's used in japan

"Girls' love" may have its roots in the term "shoujo ai", but they're not synonymous terms. Most notably, "yuri" and "shoujo ai" both refer to Japanese genre / sensibilities, while girls' love is region-neutral. Neither category fully encompasses the other. Most yuri is girls' love, but yuri also includes intimate platonic or ambiguous relationships that may not qualify for GL. Most GL on Dynasty is yuri, but GL would also include stories from around the world, such as baihe and presumably even western comics. I would believe that "yuri" and "shoujo ai" are mostly interchangeable in Japan, because GL in Japan is naturally going to be Japanese by default and so the distinction isn't useful.

No one I know (all online) actually uses any term other than 'yuri'.

I wanna say Japan's bookstores say GL, but my photo of an Animate I think used kanji for yuri; OTOH the BL section was 'BL'. And of course the yuri magazines say 'yuri'.

AFAIK Japan doesn't use 'shoujo ai' for this stuff at all, and that's a Western formation, which to Japanese has pedophilic connotation ("little-girl love").

AFAIK Japan doesn't use 'shoujo ai' for this stuff at all, and that's a Western formation, which to Japanese has pedophilic connotation ("little-girl love").

That's what I'd heard as well. I wouldn't be too surprised if influence from the western usage of "girls' love" causes the pedophilic connotations to drop off, but I've yet to hear of that happening from a reliable source, either.

I think the foreign term is used precisely to avoid the connotations in the local language.