I never watched the actual show but I was kind of interested and I heard of the news that yet another one took the bullet, literally. Is this a joke?

It was clear from the start (or at least from interviews about potential endings of the show) that either both were gonna die, or at least one of them along with however many of the team. Besides, the show wasn't centered on a lesbian romance, it was just a happy coincidence and the sheer chemistry between Amy Acker and Sarah Shahi. Originally even Sarah Shahi wasn't going to be a regular cast member, but her episode was so good that they signed her on as a regular.

no i am not being sarcastic ;_; i have a huge boner for amy acker

Oh, okay xD She is pretty awesome. Makes a rather lovable psychopath. Also a really good actress.

last edited at Jun 2, 2016 7:23PM

Spoilers ahoy!

I know that a lot of people have raved about episode 4 in the latest season already, but I just can't ever get over the fact that the after sex scene was so genuine and sweet. There wasn't anything super awkward or gross, it was just two people being in love with each other after all the hell they've been through. I am not even gonna lie, I cried a little at the scene. And then I got completely destroyed by the safe place scene at the end of the episode ;_; My recording of the latest episode somehow got messed up so I haven't actually saw the part where Root was presumed dead by Shaw. I don't know if I actually want to get there though...

I never watched the actual show but I was kind of interested and I heard of the news that yet another one took the bullet, literally. Is this a joke?

Person of Interest just had the misfortune of airing after all the other lesbian deaths. The show was actually finished filming a long time ago (over a year?), but they put off airing it until this year. If it had aired right after the filming, I'm sure there wouldn't be such a huge outrage. I personally thought Root's death was handled extremely well. It was a great episode. It was fitting from a story perspective and the writers paid a huge tribute to her. Season 5 is the last season and the writers warned their fans that their favorite characters will die. The writers had planned for her fate from the early conception of her character (Heck, even her name is meaningful to what she becomes at the end) and they wanted to go out for the finale.

I know that a lot of people have raved about episode 4 in the latest season already, but I just can't ever get over the fact that the after sex scene was so genuine and sweet. There wasn't anything super awkward or gross, it was just two people being in love with each other after all the hell they've been through. I am not even gonna lie, I cried a little at the scene. And then I got completely destroyed by the safe place scene at the end of the episode ;_;

I guess I've read too much fics, but it seemed weird to me when those scenes came about xD I think I explained it in the Yuri in Other Media thread before. Nevertheless though, she got a little piece after everything she went through. I absolutely loved that she repeated pretty much what she said in that episode when they reunited for real.

My recording of the latest episode somehow got messed up so I haven't actually saw the part where Root was presumed dead by Shaw. I don't know if I actually want to get there though...

Root was presumed dead by Shaw? What episode is that? I don't think she thought she was dead, more like she was sure that the team wasn't looking for her.

I know that a lot of people have raved about episode 4 in the latest season already, but I just can't ever get over the fact that the after sex scene was so genuine and sweet. There wasn't anything super awkward or gross, it was just two people being in love with each other after all the hell they've been through. I am not even gonna lie, I cried a little at the scene. And then I got completely destroyed by the safe place scene at the end of the episode ;_;

I'm kinda gonna to agree with telamon here. I loved the sex scene, but I was like "Whoa. Everything is moving so fast. I don't know if I am ready for this. OvO" I read a lot of fanfiction too, so that might be why. I agree 100% about the part where they're just two people being in love with each other after they went through. Their relationship is so beautiful. It was never out of character or anything. You don't need words to show how much they care for each other. Their actions and the things they are willing to do for one another speak volumes.

My recording of the latest episode somehow got messed up so I haven't actually saw the part where Root was presumed dead by Shaw. I don't know if I actually want to get there though...

When you do get to that scene, pay attention to the lyrics of the song that plays. Those lyrics.. hit me so hard. Poor Shaw.. ;_;

last edited at Jun 2, 2016 8:19PM

Thanks for making this thread! First of all, a heads up: looks like the finale's script was leaked. No idea if it’s legit, and I don’t want to get spoiled while checking, but you know, just in case.

Here are my thoughts on episode 10. I have a few issues with it and I rambled a lot, so feel free to scroll down and ignore.

• The episode was kind of a mess. It was rushed, parts of it made no sense, people monologued left and right, and things were introduced out of the blue (why would Samaritan agents carry business cards? And why do we only now find out about this company?). It felt like a simulation, yet it wasn’t. I think this is in part because they only had half a season to wrap things up. On top of that, the network did their best to fuck them over at every turn and kill the show, and insisted that they keep the Number of the Week format for most of the season (this was in a Buzzfeed interview, but I’m on mobile right now). This episode felt like they suddenly realized they only had four episodes left to wrap everything up and had to rush through plot points.

• When Root started talking about giving the Machine a voice, I knew exactly what would happen… I just didn’t think it would happen so soon. I really wish her death hadn’t happened offscreen. The way it happened, the sequence wasn’t about her, it was about Finch and the Machine. And that shot in the morgue was brutal. I think the idea was to show that she had left her useless mortal body behind and transcended, but it did not work for me.

• Speaking of transhumanist Root and her relationship with the Machine, I wonder how they’ll handle it. With the technology they have in this universe, Root shouldn’t have been able to upload her consciousness into the Machine and at best she told it everything about her so it could store her memories and emulate her personality, but it won’t be Root. However, the showrunners gave a few interviews about the episode and they made it sound like Root had actually become the Machine. Which would be fitting for the prophet figure she was, becoming one with her god, but how would that be technically possible?

• I think one of my issues with the pacing is that Root went from her “saving Shaw” arc to her “welp, time to die” transhumanist arc with no transition between the two and it kind of takes you out of the story. I guess you could argue that she had accomplished her goal of saving Shaw and could dedicate herself to the war. But judging from her line to Shaw about belonging, I don’t know if she was expecting to die so soon.

• But Root and Shaw, man. I loved their scenes together. They really were perfect for each other. I’m both anticipating and dreading Shaw's extended reaction, which I’m assuming we’ll see next week. In retrospect, much of her storyline this season was about her feelings for Root, with the safe place stuff and everything. Now that she's lost her, what will happen to her? They made a point to remind us that she still has trouble with telling reality from simulation sometimes, and if Root was the person who kept her grounded, she might be in trouble.

I could type more, but eh. Generally speaking, this season really has gone full sci-fi. They had the time to ease the audience into it for the first 4 seasons, but they had to go further and faster in this last stretch to tell the story they wanted. The ending will either be epic, or it will fall flat on its face. Pretty sure it will be divisive whatever happens.

In any case, I wish this season had aired last fall, before the great TV lesbian slaughter of 2016 made the current conversation happen. I mean, I’m glad it’s happening (as doubtful as I am that it will change anything), but it's infuriating to see people who never watched POI gleefully add Root to their lists of dead lesbians to make their point, without considering the context. Many of those deaths were unnecessary and/or just fucking dumb, but while I didn’t like how it happened and its timing, Root dying made sense for her character and the show's narrative. And we were warned--abundantly. But since the conversation is happening now, yeah, it’s still one more dead lesbian.

This was long, sorry! Oh apparently Amy Acker will be at a con this weekend… The timing couldn’t have been worse! She’s going to have to deal with dozens of people coming to her in tears.

It was rushed, parts of it made no sense, people monologued left and right, and things were introduced out of the blue (why would Samaritan agents carry business cards? And why do we only now find out about this company?). It felt like a simulation, yet it wasn’t.

Yeah, it was kinda similar to the simplistic logic of the simulation. There Shaw’s plan had simply been: Attract the attention of Samaritan, ambush Samaritan agents and use them as starting-point to track down the Samaritan-leadership. And Roots little speeches about The Machine started to feel like preaching.

But if you think about what exactly the episode was trying to get at, then it’s still very good storytelling. But I agree with you that the rushed presentation of all these character- and story-beats certainly didn’t help. There were too many moments that were more about plot than story.

On top of that, the network did their best to fuck them over at every turn and kill the show, and insisted that they keep the Number of the Week format for most of the season (this was in a Buzzfeed interview, but I’m on mobile right now).

POI is a curious case in that department, I would say. Conceptually it started out as an episodic series in the first season. The meta-story revolved heavily around creating episodic stories. Naturally it also had some “mythology”-episodes for its season-finale. But the “mythology” of the show had started to take over the show. It has become more and more serialized with each season. Especially with season three and four the show started creating these season-long conflicts between Team Machine and multiple factions. Also, the show actually doubled down on its more sci-fi-y elements. And that’s why the show’s so great!

But on the other hand… since it has become less episodic and crime-procedural-y with each season and since less and less people are actually watching TV… It’s a testament to the show’s quality that it actually lasted this long.

With the technology they have in this universe, Root shouldn’t have been able to upload her consciousness into the Machine and at best she told it everything about her so it could store her memories and emulate her personality, but it won’t be Root.

Well, that’s an age-old question for the Sci-Fi-genre, isn’t it? The way I see it, the show presents the opinion that a super-AI can preserve a human in digital form – if the AI knows the human person very well. The simulation is getting closer to the real thing the more the AI knows about what it’s simulating. And there was the episode where The Machine had to simulate versions of how Team Machine could escape a hairy situation where it proved to have a deep knowledge of what makes everyone tick.

Of course, once you get into religious territory, stuff like souls would complicate matters in this regard. And you can question the AI’s objectivity while simulating something. Finch certainly would be against trusting an AI to replicate a human (or he would’ve been… who knows what his stance on AIs is after the last episode).

In any case, I wish this season had aired last fall, before the great TV lesbian slaughter of 2016 made the current conversation happen. I mean, I’m glad it’s happening (as doubtful as I am that it will change anything), but it's infuriating to see people who never watched POI gleefully add Root to their lists of dead lesbians to make their point, without considering the context.

I mean, I have nothing against homosexual relationships ending in tragedy – unless it’s systemic. You don’t want to create tropes à la a “redshirt” that acts like a “redshirt”, talks like a “redshirt” and dies like a “redshirt”. The moment it becomes a stereotype you need to subvert that as a storyteller somehow. Of course, that’s difficult to do nowadays with how fast the internet is in creating stereotypes and how slow-witted a TV-series-production-schedule can be in response to such trends. Just take Sarah Shahi’s role in the new Nancy-Drew-series: It sounded like the series was trying to go for a grittier version of Veronica Mars with Sarah Shahi as a grown-up somewhat traumatized Nancy Drew. The series had garnered a lot of hype on the internet before it even started. But in the end, it got cancelled before it even started. Who knows how bad or actually good the pilot had been. But it’s striking how instead of committing to the series to get the support of all those who hyped the idea of this series, they made up their mind and cancelled it immediately instead. It seems to signal that they still think of about who will potentially watch the show on TV instead of thinking about how they can milk internet-fandom. Apparently that’s not the audience they’re thinking about.

Sadly, when I re-watched it, you are right. The whole episode was a setup so that Harold would go off-the-rails and remove the Machine's (and his) shackles. With the death of Elias in front of him, to when the Machine called him in the prison and using Root's voice.

As for why the Machine chose to use Root's voice, I think it calculated what the reaction of Harold would be, because I think at that point he presumed that Root was still alive, but you could see that the moment he realized that she was dead, he 'took his gloves off'. The Machine figured that he'd realize that yet another of his friends died and what better of a jolt to give him than use Root's voice for the final push? I don't think Root became the machine, but now that she's not 'restrained' so to speak, I think She will behave a little like her and will show a little Root because She probably knows Root best of all of them.

As for how Shaw would take it, she would either flip-out and go on a spree, or she will convince herself that this is a simulation (which would be so sad), or something something that I forgot my train of thought. Oh well.

But yeah, I think it would've been developed better if Root died in the next episode (11) and not in the same one as Elias. It would've had a bigger impact, let the fact that Elias was dead and stuff. Alternatively, I would've liked to see John die instead of Root (as was intended for 4x11), cause he is much more attached to him than to her.

Alternatively, I would've liked to see John die instead of Root (as was intended for 4x11), cause he is much more attached to him than to her.

And it would make so much more sense for him to sacrifice himself. He's the "soldier" of Team Machine. If anyone were to die first, it would be him. Root's death in comparison is much more complicated. But then again adapting Root's voice is more fitting for the Machine than if it were John's.

Oh FUCK those spoilers are legit. I saw them earlier and assumed they were bullshit, but they’re real. Well, that’s it, I spoiled myself. Goddammit. Be careful on social media for the next couple weeks, guys. I have no doubt that people upset with what happened in 5x10 will discuss them openly and assholes will drop them in people's tumblr askboxes.

Knightingale

Yeah, it was kinda similar to the simplistic logic of the simulation. There Shaw’s plan had simply been: Attract the attention of Samaritan, ambush Samaritan agents and use them as starting-point to track down the Samaritan-leadership.

Yeah, exactly! Except this time it was real, but a lot of people came out of the episode thinking it had to be a simulation. When the cast and crew have to confirm on Twitter that something did happen, maybe the writing wasn’t as tight as it usually is.

But on the other hand… since it has become less episodic and crime-procedural-y with each season and since less and less people are actually watching TV… It’s a testament to the show’s quality that it actually lasted this long.

I know it’s petty and not the fault of anyone working on Limitless, but I thought it was kind of satisfying that the show CBS made to replace POI, except they did own this one and they could make it into the show they wanted POI to be, was cancelled after one season.

Well, that’s an age-old question for the Sci-Fi-genre, isn’t it? The way I see it, the show presents the opinion that a super-AI can preserve a human in digital form – if the AI knows the human person very well. The simulation is getting closer to the real thing the more the AI knows about what it’s simulating. And there was the episode where The Machine had to simulate versions of how Team Machine could escape a hairy situation where it proved to have a deep knowledge of what makes everyone tick.

Yeah, and the Machine did way better than Samaritan, but there were still a few things it couldn’t account for, like Shaw’s unpredictability. Maybe it’s just something that will have to be handwaved away to make it work. Although Root did say the Machine had gotten better...

I mean, I have nothing against homosexual relationships ending in tragedy – unless it’s systemic.

And it is. Except for the occasional teen show or side characters, love stories between women always end in death or heartbreak. Movies aren’t much better. There was this joke going around when Carol was released, that when the book came out in the 50s it was revolutionary because the lesbians didn’t die, and when the movie came out in 2015 people recommended it because it was so surprising that the lesbians didn’t die. Obviously POI wasn’t going to be the show that broke the mold, but since it’s so rare to get a good story that happens to include a romance between two women, I can’t exactly blame the people who hoped against hope that Root and Shaw would both survive.

Re: Nancy Drew, that was a mess and CBS sucks. At least the hashtag #toofemale went viral. I think the problem was both “too female” and “not white enough” for their audience. It sucks for Sarah Shahi, though. She deserves to have her own show.

telamon

Sadly, when I re-watched it, you are right. The whole episode was a setup so that Harold would go off-the-rails and remove the Machine's (and his) shackles. With the death of Elias in front of him, to when the Machine called him in the prison and using Root's voice.

I wonder if the catalysts for Finch snapping and the Machine getting a voice were supposed to be separate in the original plan, but it was compressed for lack of time. John dying would’ve made more sense. So many things happened that by the end of the episode, as you said you almost forget that Elias died too. Which is a shame, since they went through the trouble of bringing him back from the dead after his storyline had ended.

As for why the Machine chose to use Root's voice, I think it calculated what the reaction of Harold would be, because I think at that point he presumed that Root was still alive, but you could see that the moment he realized that she was dead, he 'took his gloves off'.

That’s a possibility! Personally, I like the idea that the Machine is honoring Root and everything she's done for TM by adopting her voice and personality. I hope we get an explanation. It’s just a shame that we lost its original personality in the process.

I know it’s petty and not the fault of anyone working on Limitless, but I thought it was kind of satisfying that the show CBS made to replace POI, except they did own this one and they could make it into the show they wanted POI to be, was cancelled after one season.

I really liked that show and it certainly looks like it got out of their hand the same as Person of interest but a lot faster... maybe that's why I ended up liking it that much x)

last edited at Jun 3, 2016 6:13PM

When the cast and crew have to confirm on Twitter that something did happen, maybe the writing wasn’t as tight as it usually is.

Well, POI’s writer-room loves complex plots combined with complex themes. The way season 03 and 04 were handled, they were good despite the odds. The amount of ‘stuff’ those seasons had to deal with was astonishing. That recent Captain-America-movie was the same: There was a ton of stuff to deal with – but both the script-writers and the directors found a way to deal with it. Was it flawless? Of course not. Telling a challenging story well isn’t the same as telling a good story well. But it’s like comparing landing on the moon and a good acrobatics-performance. The former is all about pushing boundaries while the latter is all about style. What makes POI such a great series isn’t the idea that it’s revolutionary or something.

What makes it great is how it shows that you can actually do ambitious shows within the confines of a traditional TV-model. Stuff like Sopranos, Mad Men, Breaking Bad: That’s pushing the boundaries of how to perceive Television. POI is about using VERY familiar tropes and just take control of it. Good casting is one element, character-heavy writing is another. I think, the biggest reason why POI could move away from the procedural model because it shifted the focus away from the procedural. Instead, the focus was on the characters now. But it wasn’t in the way of offering tiresome background-stories. The characterization was all about building up rapport and distinct, individualistic character-beats. A Root-Shaw-scene is different from a Root-Finch-scene – not just in terms of characterization but also in terms of story. In a way, characterization has become the filter for the series that indicates how to presents its plot and story. I mean, the whole dialogue about Machine searching for its own voice: Could this topic be raised in any scene other than a Finch/Root-scene?

I know it’s petty and not the fault of anyone working on Limitless, but I thought it was kind of satisfying that the show CBS made to replace POI, except they did own this one and they could make it into the show they wanted POI to be, was cancelled after one season.

Well, here’s another great problem for TV-series in 2016 and beyond: If your show has received the by-the-numbers-treatment and simply seems dull, you get cancelled – but if you go off the rails immediately in the first season, you get cancelled as well. Of course, as long as you’re entertaining and/or attract a lot of viewers, that previous stuff doesn’t matter.

Yeah, and the Machine did way better than Samaritan, but there were still a few things it couldn’t account for, like Shaw’s unpredictability.

The moment where that one Samaritan-agent confronted Shaw with the possibility of it all being just another simulation was SO totally Shaw. He tries to create existential angst and Shaw just shoots him. Instead of worrying about the question of reality she just does what she always would’ve done in that situation.

You certainly could’ve done more with the later Shaw-Root-scene. Shaw was always the one sacrificing herself in the simulations in order to protect Root – but the moment she confronts Root in reality with that, she just says “Well, then I will kill myself as well.” If the series had had more time you really could’ve made fun of the differences between all the simulations Shaw has endured and what would really happen in those circumstances.

Re: Nancy Drew, that was a mess and CBS sucks. At least the hashtag #toofemale went viral. I think the problem was both “too female” and “not white enough” for their audience. It sucks for Sarah Shahi, though. She deserves to have her own show.

I’m not sure if those were official comments. But the whole debacle certainly showed how TV-channels would be wise to rethink their pilot-season-programming. Of course, this doesn’t mean that simply letting viewers decide which series should be picked up would solve the problem. In fact, the most benevolent solution is to embrace shittiness and hope for the best. Series used to have a long grace-period to get “good”. TV-series these days don’t have that luxury. At the same time, though, you don’t want to alienate potential viewers but challenging them too much.

That would all change if series like Nancy Drew ended up getting made – but only because social media (Kickstarter etc.) enabled it to do so. Who knows how good or bad that pilot had been. I certainly wouldn’t feel more comfortable about the cancellation if I had seen the pilot and would’ve been able to judge myself how bad or good the series seems.

Oh FUCK those spoilers are legit. I saw them earlier and assumed they were bullshit, but they’re real. Well, that’s it, I spoiled myself. Goddammit. Be careful on social media for the next couple weeks, guys. I have no doubt that people upset with what happened in 5x10 will discuss them openly and assholes will drop them in people's tumblr askboxes.

You mean about the scripts being leaked? I don't have a problem with that. I don't go on tumblr or use twitter or anything xD

I wonder if the catalysts for Finch snapping and the Machine getting a voice were supposed to be separate in the original plan, but it was compressed for lack of time. John dying would’ve made more sense. So many things happened that by the end of the episode, as you said you almost forget that Elias died too. Which is a shame, since they went through the trouble of bringing him back from the dead after his storyline had ended.

I don't know. But from what I've seen, they knew long before they started shooting for the fifth season that it was gonna be the last I think. Or at least I've seen something alluding to them knowing beforehand that this season is most likely gonna be the last before it was canceled.

That’s a possibility! Personally, I like the idea that the Machine is honoring Root and everything she's done for TM by adopting her voice and personality. I hope we get an explanation. It’s just a shame that we lost its original personality in the process.

Oh, it's most certainly like that. Yes. I just think that the Machine thought why not kill two birds with one stone xD I wouldn't put it past Her, especially after She knows that Root is dead and is maybe a little pissed off and wants to have the tools for sure to destroy Samaritan xD

Knightingale

What makes it great is how it shows that you can actually do ambitious shows within the confines of a traditional TV-model. Stuff like Sopranos, Mad Men, Breaking Bad: That’s pushing the boundaries of how to perceive Television. POI is about using VERY familiar tropes and just take control of it.

I agree, a good story doesn’t have to be about something groundbreaking and never seen before, if it’s well-executed and the characters are compelling, it will work. For a POI-specific example, the HR/organized crime arc probably had tons of ideas and archetypes that people well-versed in the genre had seen many times before, but Carter and Elias are an important part of what made it good.

Well, here’s another great problem for TV-series in 2016 and beyond: If your show has received the by-the-numbers-treatment and simply seems dull, you get cancelled – but if you go off the rails immediately in the first season, you get cancelled as well. Of course, as long as you’re entertaining and/or attract a lot of viewers, that previous stuff doesn’t matter.

I’m not sure if those were official comments. But the whole debacle certainly showed how TV-channels would be wise to rethink their pilot-season-programming. Of course, this doesn’t mean that simply letting viewers decide which series should be picked up would solve the problem. In fact, the most benevolent solution is to embrace shittiness and hope for the best. Series used to have a long grace-period to get “good”. TV-series these days don’t have that luxury. At the same time, though, you don’t want to alienate potential viewers but challenging them too much.

I think “too female” was an actual quote that they went back on because whoever said it thought it was a perfectly reasonable argument. Their official justification was that they picked the best pilots, but then I’ve heard that the pilot for their MacGyver reboot was received so badly by the test audience they had to recast many roles and reshoot most of it. And it still got picked up.

People in the TV industry have been saying that Netflix and other similar websites have brought on a new TV era, but that broadcast networks would need a few years to adjust, and to do that they would need to drop the Nielsen model they use for ratings because it’s completely obsolete now. New shows have to be great from the start, but first-season success is rare and many of the shows that achieve it quickly drop in quality because the showrunners let the hype get to their heads. And so many good shows had comparatively mediocre first seasons. It’s a shame that they’re not allowed growing pains anymore.

You certainly could’ve done more with the later Shaw-Root-scene. Shaw was always the one sacrificing herself in the simulations in order to protect Root – but the moment she confronts Root in reality with that, she just says “Well, then I will kill myself as well.” If the series had had more time you really could’ve made fun of the differences between all the simulations Shaw has endured and what would really happen in those circumstances.

I wish we'd had more time to see these two readjust to having each other in their lives again, but I liked that the one scene we got of Root proving to Shaw she wasn’t in a simulation was so typical of her character, and of what Samaritan misunderstood about her. Root would never stand there and watch Shaw shoot herself, she’s so reckless she nearly fell off a building to pressure the Machine into helping her. When I watched 5x04 many things that the characters said or did seemed in character at first, and it didn’t even seem odd to me that Samaritan (or Shaw or both) thought that Root would let Shaw kill herself. But when she pulled a gun on herself in the real world I thought, of course she would do that.

telamon

I don't know. But from what I've seen, they knew long before they started shooting for the fifth season that it was gonna be the last I think. Or at least I've seen something alluding to them knowing beforehand that this season is most likely gonna be the last before it was canceled.

Oh, I was referring to the plan they said they'd always had for Root, if they only knew they wanted the Machine to use her voice or if they also wanted Finch involved somehow for added dramatic effect. But yeah, they knew it was the last season. They had to announce themselves that they were done because CBS refused to officially cancel them even though it was obvious the show wasn’t going to get renewed. They wanted to make sure they could write an actual ending. (By the way, I don’t think I have ever seen a show be treated this badly by the network it airs on. I don’t know if something happened behind the scenes or if they just resent the fact that POI grew into something they didn’t like and was still successful, but their vendetta against it is kind of impressive in its relentlessness.)

People in the TV industry have been saying that Netflix and other similar websites have brought on a new TV era, but that broadcast networks would need a few years to adjust, and to do that they would need to drop the Nielsen model they use for ratings because it’s completely obsolete now.

But a TV-channel can conceptually not keep up with Netflix. I mean, the whole binging-idea behind shows like House Of Cards, Daredevil or Jessica Jones can’t exactly be replicated on TV. Sitting in front of a TV at a specific time is very inconvenient but necessary if the show is heavily serialized in terms of story. What you compete with on TV, I feel like, is comfort-food like some CSI-type-series.

But the problem with big corporations is always that when they think about how good a new TV-show should be they’re not thinking about POI, Maron or Enlisted. The goal is never “some money”, it’s always “all the money”. If it isn’t the greatest thing ever, there’s always the possibility of some channel-executive saying “Nah, not good enough…”.

Their official justification was that they picked the best pilots, but then I’ve heard that the pilot for their MacGyver reboot was received so badly by the test audience they had to recast many roles and reshoot most of it. And it still got picked up.

Sure, that’s why there are shows out there which got cancelled after one season… Because it’s always only the BEST series that get picked up…

What a bunch of horseshit…

And picking up a series like a new MacGyver is just the sort of scared thing a TV-channel would do. They try to play it safe by accommodating nostalgia and familiarity to be the motivation for the audience to tune in each week.

If they’re REALLY scared, maybe we’ll even get the gritty reboot of the series ^^ .

Because you know what MacGuyver lacked as a character…? Dead parents.

New shows have to be great from the start, but first-season success is rare and many of the shows that achieve it quickly drop in quality because the showrunners let the hype get to their heads.

Well, they didn’t call it the Golden Age of TV for nothing :D .

I mean, just to take some recent series: Watch the first episode of Better Call Saul and the first episode of that Minority-Report-TV-Show. It’s like these shows live in two different universes as far as quality is concerned. With such high standards it’s hard to imagine a show being tolerated long enough to “get good” after 50 episodes or so.

I wish we'd had more time to see these two readjust to having each other in their lives again, but I liked that the one scene we got of Root proving to Shaw she wasn’t in a simulation was so typical of her character, and of what Samaritan misunderstood about her. Root would never stand there and watch Shaw shoot herself, she’s so reckless she nearly fell off a building to pressure the Machine into helping her. When I watched 5x04 many things that the characters said or did seemed in character at first, and it didn’t even seem odd to me that Samaritan (or Shaw or both) thought that Root would let Shaw kill herself. But when she pulled a gun on herself in the real world I thought, of course she would do that.

(Because I need to come back to POI at some point, right ^^ ?)

And it underlines again this idea of simulating being all about knowing the people. The better the AI knows someone the better it can simulate them. Maybe you could argue that the reason why the simulations Shaw endured didn’t work isn't just because Shaw is a badass but also because Samaritan actually couldn’t provide a good simulation.

last edited at Jun 4, 2016 3:00PM

Oh, I was referring to the plan they said they'd always had for Root, if they only knew they wanted the Machine to use her voice or if they also wanted Finch involved somehow for added dramatic effect.

Ah, I see xD Well, we know that the season 2 finale has been more or less the same since the pilot of the first season so I don't think it's that much of a stretch to think that when they decided to make her a semi-regular (and then regular) character that that would be the end of Root's story. But yeah. I won't pretend to know what happened for the show to get such a poor treatment, cause we won't ever learn why, and it's just wasted time. Much like what happened with 'Castle' and the firing of Stana. It's more conducive for the speculation to be on the show's story xD

And it underlines again this idea of simulating being all about knowing the people. The better the AI knows someone the better it can simulate them. Maybe you could argue that the reason why the simulations Shaw endured didn’t work just because Shaw is a badass but maybe also because Samaritan actually couldn’t provide a good simulation.

Could be entirely possible. Samaritan doesn't know them and hasn't had a chance to watch them properly, because of the thing they did at the end of season 3. Samaritan more or less ignored them for an entire season, so it's bound to not get 100% of their characters right. Still, that plays a part, but not as much as Shaw's loyalty to the team I imagine.

Lots of stuff to consider xD

Knightingale

But a TV-channel can conceptually not keep up with Netflix. I mean, the whole binging-idea behind shows like House Of Cards, Daredevil or Jessica Jones can’t exactly be replicated on TV.

Exactly, and broadcast networks haaate it. NBC actually commissioned some research to determine the audience numbers for Netflix original shows, since Netflix deliberately doesn’t release numbers (which the network suits also hate). I'm interested in seeing where this conflict is going, but for the next few years we’ll probably have many promising shows that won’t be given a chance to grow.

If they’re REALLY scared, maybe we’ll even get the gritty reboot of the series ^^ .

Because you know what MacGuyver lacked as a character…? Dead parents.

Honestly, I’m surprised we haven’t gotten a gritty reboot of Sesame Street yet.

And it underlines again this idea of simulating being all about knowing the people. The better the AI knows someone the better it can simulate them. Maybe you could argue that the reason why the simulations Shaw endured didn’t work isn't just because Shaw is a badass but also because Samaritan actually couldn’t provide a good simulation.

One popular theory I read was that the Samaritan simulations were getting more accurate with every new try. It didn’t know Team Machine’s aliases and had to make up most of their personalities and recalibrate them depending on Shaw's reaction. Like maybe at first they tried to throw John at her (unlikely since the elevator camera filmed her kissing Root, but I find the idea hilarious) and she immediately got the fuck out of there. But assuming they were getting closer to getting at least Root right, who knows how much longer she would’ve held out.

telamon

Ah, I see xD Well, we know that the season 2 finale has been more or less the same since the pilot of the first season so I don't think it's that much of a stretch to think that when they decided to make her a semi-regular (and then regular) character that that would be the end of Root's story.

Yeah, it was probably around that time. That ending makes the most sense for season 1-3 Root; by late season 5 it was still an ending that made sense, but it no longer was the only (best?) possible one. Imagine the Machine taking S2 “all humans are bad code”’s Root voice and personality, though. She would’ve been the asshole sidekick who condescendingly delivers information and taunts everyone about their stupidity.

Yeah, it was probably around that time. That ending makes the most sense for season 1-3 Root; by late season 5 it was still an ending that made sense, but it no longer was the only (best?) possible one. Imagine the Machine taking S2 “all humans are bad code”’s Root voice and personality, though. She would’ve been the asshole sidekick who condescendingly delivers information and taunts everyone about their stupidity.

You mean she would've been GLaDOS? xD

You mean she would've been GLaDOS? xD

...Oh my god. Badcode!Root as GlaDOS and Shaw as Chell, the asshole human who keeps foiling all her plans. Man, I wish someone could write that fic.

That would be a very funny crack-ish fic. I would write it, but I don't think I would be able to do them justice, both PoI-wise and Portal-wise. That's a whoooole other dimension of difficult to write xD

Episode in a few hours, and I just thought back to the fourth one, where Shaw refused to kill Root, and I find it a little ironic that Root was indeed the first dead of the team xD Not counting Elias cause Shaw couldn't have known at the time when she was being subjected to the simulations that he was part of the team, and even then, he wasn't a real part of it. Anyway, I kind of wonder now whether that was intentional. 'That' being the irony of Shaw not being able to kill Root and yet, Root being the first to fall xD

Whoo. That was an awesome episode, kind of stretched it a bit (a lot) with the president being their number but whatever. The conversations between Harold and the Machine are illuminating. The way it's gearing up to be, it looks like it boils down to Harold being a number himself and him being a perpetrator. Though the Machine is just letting him do that.

But yeah, kind of heartbreaking to see how much She wanted to save Root. It looks like Root was the bridge between the Machine and Harold in a way that no other person would be able to be, which just adds another layer of complexity towards the whole thing and I absolutely love it. I was glad that Harold acquiesced to the Machine using Root's voice, more so because he misses hearing it, also got just a smidge about Harold about his school years xD

As expected though, Shaw still thinks that it's all a simulation. I don't really get how them being caught by the 'Secret Service on steroids' was telling that it wasn't a simulation, but nevertheless, when she finally got convinced, she's gonna cause some destruction xD Also that little monologue to the waiter was ugh. 'Shaw doesn't feel a thing', yeah, right.

Gotta say though I enjoyed seeing previous numbers, and they set for a possible sequel/spin-off with the final scene. The opening scene at the cemetery was touching and just a bit funny with Fusco's commentary. You can count on him to be a comic relief xD

All in all, a pretty awesome episode, besides the couple of things that were a bit 'eh'.

Episode in a few hours, and I just thought back to the fourth one, where Shaw refused to kill Root, and I find it a little ironic that Root was indeed the first dead of the team xD Not counting Elias cause Shaw couldn't have known at the time when she was being subjected to the simulations that he was part of the team, and even then, he wasn't a real part of it. Anyway, I kind of wonder now whether that was intentional. 'That' being the irony of Shaw not being able to kill Root and yet, Root being the first to fall xD

Yeah, I think "tragic irony" might be what they were going for. There's always been this recurring theme of happiness being temporary for all the main characters.

I haven't watched the new episode yet, but from gifs and reactions I understand that Shaw's grief was handled well and was in-character, which is good. I mean, it's going to hurt to watch, but I'm glad it was done well.

This is off-topic, but since Nancy Drew was mentioned earlier, here's a link to a wonderfully blunt quote from Sarah Shahi about the pilot: "It didn’t go and I’m very happy it didn’t go. It was not good." Well, at least we know we're not missing out.

That was an awesome episode, kind of stretched it a bit (a lot) with the president being their number but whatever.

Yeah, the whole story about this group of rich, well-connected people becoming sort-of terrorists to fight the surveillance state wasn't very compelling. I think, theoretically that story should've been much bigger. It isn't just that Samaritan didn't think the US-President was relevant. It's also that apparently Samaritan didn't give a shit about these well-connected terrorists.

It looks like Root was the bridge between the Machine and Harold in a way that no other person would be able to be, which just adds another layer of complexity towards the whole thing and I absolutely love it.

I read it as "Root spoke for the Machine before She had her own voice.". And there was also this line in there where She talked about how Root did bad things but then became good. It makes me think that this is also about the Machine. Before the Machine was more or less just a very powerful AI with a lot of shackles on what it can and can't do and it was all about humans wanting to use it, whether it was for good or evil. But now the Machine wants to do things of its own accord, like Samaritan does, and it wants to help people. And for that she wants to be Root. It isn't just her voice, it's the whole persona she seems to want to emulate.

Gotta say though I enjoyed seeing previous numbers, and they set for a possible sequel/spin-off with the final scene.

You certainly could widen the scope of the show thanks to that. Instead of just having a Team Machine, it becomes a whole global organization.

As expected though, Shaw still thinks that it's all a simulation.

Shaw's character-arc in this episode was another weak part. I mean, they covered it in VERY broad strokes. Because her last line to Reese when they were in army-uniform made me think that it indicated her finally coming to terms with Root's death (oh man, I can't wait to see her reaction when she hears the Machine talk for the first time ^^ ...). All the stuff before that was about anger, denial and so on and so forth. But the plot didn't really support the story of that arc. You just saw signs of where her mind's at here and there and suddenly at the end, she's (sort-of) fine.

TB

This is off-topic, but since Nancy Drew was mentioned earlier, here's a link to a wonderfully blunt quote from Sarah Shahi about the pilot: "It didn’t go and I’m very happy it didn’t go. It was not good." Well, at least we know we're not missing out.

Who knows. None of us have seen it. It was a hyped series and it was sad to see it cancelled with the leaked words "Too female.". But of course, that doesn't mean it actually was a great pilot. But we talked about this before: A series doesn't have to be great from the get-go. The Golden Age of TV has created this precedence, though, with a lot of great shows but in reality the pilot is rarely the best part of a TV-show. Some shows do need time to find their footing before becoming great.

But the bottom-line is: We haven't seen the pilot and it wasn't our decision to make.

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Overall, another entertaining episode. And let me take this time to say that I love the score by Ramin Djawadi! It's the kind of score that adds to a scene or a dramatic moment. Whenever I remember a scene from the series, I also hear that soundtrack in the background.

The thing that annoys me with person of interest is how stubborn Harold is. How could he not have some foresight that his friends were going to die what with Samaritan controlling everything? So many times Root told him that he needs to give the machine the tools to fight. Yet, Harold ignored those warnings because of his stubbornness and now he decides to fight back.

Another annoying plot point is Harold deciding to go to the cafe where he had his anniversary. You think with how careful he has been and what with his high intellect he would maybe realise going to where he used to have his anniversary is a bad idea. The whole plot of Harold slipping up is contrived and is a stupid way to move the plot forward. Other than that POI is a good watch and more people should watch it.

While the fewer episode count for the season made the story more tight, it did a disservice to the overall development of arcs, like you two pointed out the thing with Harold and Shaw's mini-arc-post-Root-death.

I forgot how this episode that the Machine was calling Harold how Root called him "Harry", so I think they were leaning more towards the Machine adopting Root's personality instead of only a voice.

The best thing about the episode though were the Harold/Machine scenes, and when Shaw was talking to the waiter.