Those are some interesting news/rumors: http://www.movienewsguide.com/person-interest-season-6-renewal-cancellation-update-jonathan-nolan-hints-different-storylines-season-5-finale/270230

This is also an interesting read: http://www.cinemablend.com/television/1526300/did-person-of-interests-series-finale-hint-at-a-spinoff-heres-what-the-creator-says

So, according to Jonathan Nolan Shaw and Root do continue their relationship in this new form.

Cause she would kill her teammates quickly.

Well, everyone except Root, of course ;) .

Which made me wonder if there was going to be a Samaritan!Shaw if the show wasn't cancelled?

Well, that one episode which was all about simulation Shaw had to endure... I imagined this was kinda the cliff-notes-version of what the writers had originally had wanted to do. Shaw gets out, blacks out occasionally and during those "black-outs" she's essentially a Samaritan-agent. Also, there would've been a secret effort by Samaritan to convert Shaw to their cause.

My personal idea for an episode would be: Maybe she has a black-out-episode - and wakes up being congratulated by Team Machine that she has saved the day for a particularly difficult mission. But actually she had been controlled by Samaritan during that time. And the entire episode is about her figuring out what she had done while she was controlled by Samaritan and maybe realizing that Samaritan had ulterior motives.

And continuing from that, what if Shaw is starting to influence Samaritan in the same way Root influenced the Machine? What if at some point Shaw is manipulating Samaritan instead of the other way around? Instead of destroying Samaritan, the objective becomes rescuing Samaritan from the clutches of Greer. I mean, the series decided to turn the Machine into a good guy, so why not give Samaritan a redemption-arc where it learns from Shaw how to be a "good guy" (and Shaw being the tutor is a good basis for a lot of humour, I would say :) ). And Greer turns out to be just another person who wants to tell an AI what to do (even if his motivation is different from the government).

Anyone seen 'The Girl King'? The tags in IMDB show that there is yuri to be had in the movie, but still.

I've seen it... but I didn't like it - at all.

It isn't a great movie in general (the pacing is atrocious, for example). As for the yuri... Sure, there's a lesbian relationship but without spoiling the ending, the movie just can't decide whether being homosexual is a good thing or not. It isn't exactly homophobic but there are these symbolic moments where you think "Okay, what are you trying to imply with that...?". For example, in one scene the lesbian couple is secretly having sex on top of a big Satanic bible .

It's one of those shabby historical movies where the protagonist is "ahead of its time", is influential for a while - but in the end doesn't change anything. And all you're left with is an after-credits-text announcing the baby-steps of progress the protagonist actually enforced. It's the kind of movie that wants to inspire but instead seems like it's desperate for attention. The movie wants to send an inspiring message (relevant to a present-day-crowd) but is really clumsy in utilizing a historical incident to do that.

Also... the lesbian relationship ends badly and the movie ends with the queen going to Italy (alone) to build a GREAT library .

last edited at Aug 8, 2016 4:30PM

There's a theory I like--in season 3 after escaping from Control, Root calls Finch and tells him she's touched that Shaw came to look for her, but we didn't see that happen.

Yes! That line was SO confusing! But it totally falls in line with this S03-depiction of Shaw always talking about hunting her down Root but ultimately saving her ass instead.

If a man and a woman look at each other once, you'll find tons of folks who will immediately pronounce them in love.

Well, the lesson is: Not every act of intimacy is an act of romance. But there are way too many people out there who will immediately read it as a romantic move.

And you can do that for the sake of fanfiction, I guess.

Most f/f couples find themselves stuck in a love triangle with a dude at some point, because apparently writers can't imagine writing female characters who don't need a man in their life. Many lesbian movies are about a woman coming out and leaving her husband, who is often portrayed as an asshole

Romance-wise that is boring storytelling regardless of the gender. I mean, even the heterosexual version would be tiresome: "Oh, this girl had a bad husband - but now she has met the man of her dreams. Hooray! Except... her ex is a REAL asshole about it!". For the homosexual version, they just add stupid stuff like "Hey, I never knew I was into girls until I met you!" and "How dare you being homosexual?!". What's frustrating is when homosexual stories seem to force themselves to add a homophobic character (cause that makes it "more real", I guess...) or when being homosexual seems to be more important than being into a certain person (it's all about why she's in love with a woman - and not about why she's in love with this specific woman).

But here, Root and Shaw are just into each other and the series provides a character-driven reason for why they are. It isn't until later in the series that this relationship actually gets dramatized.

Like with Shaw. They didn't make her all clingy and sappy like probably a lot of writers would've done, but stuck to her diagnosis.

Yeah, another reason why the ShawxRoot-relationship works is that the series gives them room to just be flirty/nice to each other. Too often romance gets turned into a plot-driven thing where it's a tug-of-war between love and hate. In an effort to turn romance into an emotional rollercoaster you get the high points and low points of a relationship. Animes even turn the confession of love into the endpoint of the romance-plot and so figuring out who the protagonist is in love with is half the battle (and often it IS a battle)! Both approaches are all about creating drama.

What you often don't get is just moments that confirm why the two lovers are right for each other. The plot didn't push Root and Shaw to be together. That development emerged from character-development - and it never was an issue story-wise (until season 04/05). Their romance was just a collection of little moments that showed their affection for each other. It was all about their characters. That's what made it compelling.

Of course, there's a good reason why Shaw disappeared for a while after sacrificing herself. But ignoring that external influence, I would argue that this lack of dramatization prior to that is exactly what gave the RootxShaw-relationship the narrative room to make the case for why their relationship makes sense. Those moments that are about nothing but a romantic couple interacting are much better as a sub-plot than having a dramatic episode where one character has to save his/her love-interest from a serial-killer, for example, in order to talk about her love for the other character. If you need drama to prove the existence of romance, then it isn't a well-written romance.

last edited at Jul 19, 2016 3:10PM

Root has always been way over-the-top about everything she does, but this season Shaw gave her a run for her money. And I thought it still made sense for both characters, after everything they've been through. I still don't know what Root's priorities were between Shaw and the Machine.

I would say it started in Season 03 where they really doubled down on this peculiar relationship. Root as the Analogue Interface would say seemingly random stuff all the time and everybody was weirded out by her "precog"-abilities while Finch feared the potential danger of someone like Root running around with that power. But Shaw accepted it. More than that, though, Shaw started getting very protective in regards to Root. There are these moments in the third season where Root would just blindly follow the Machine's directions, get in danger and the only reason she survived is because Shaw went out of her way to protect her (the Season 03 finale is a big example where Shaw actually abandons the Finch-rescue-party in order to help Root).

Also, the way Shaw acts and talks kinda makes her as much a romantic as Root. She's very straightforward in her actions but never direct in what she says. All that snark distracts from her muted, true emotions. For example, there was this moment in season 03 where someone was weirded out by Root's commands and Shaw said something like "She does that all the time and she's always right - which is as annoying as it sounds.". On the surface, Shaw is complaining about it but in comparison to the rest of Team Machine Reese would doubt her, Finch would worry about doing the Machine's bidding and Fusco would simply be confused. But despite all the snark, Shaw actually trusts Root early on. But she never says it directly.

Now if we think of Root as this big romantic and the way she clinged to Hanna (who seemed to be her only friend when she was a kid), someone like Shaw must seem like a godsend to her. Here's a person who doesn't judge her, doesn't want anything from her and still goes out of her way to protect her. Also, the diminutive way Shaw shows that she cares about Root is cute as well, I guess. There was this one moment where Root got shot, got her wound treated and Shaw is in the same room later on. Shaw goes over to her suddenly, checks the bandages and just says something like "Keep it dry for 72 hours." and Root replies: "I love it when you play doctor."

I mean, in a way it's a better version of a tsundere-dynamic. Usually the tsundere's inability to communicate her feelings is played up for laughs and whatever douche creates those feelings is completely oblivious. What you get in animes often is a girl trying to hide her feelings and some bland douchebag complains about it, not questioning it at all. But here you have an actual rapport: Shaw isn't showing her true feelings directly but Root is aware of them and constantly teases her about that.

Which is why it always horrifies me when I see people shipping Root and Finch.

Although I do like their rapport when they talk about The Machine. I wouldn't call it romantic. Besides, didn't Finch check Root into the asylum as her "uncle"...? And the series has done a ton to establish Grace and Finch as a "true-love-pairing".

But of course, you can change that in Fanfiction. As long as there's good chemistry between the characters on-screen, some romantic version of it isn't that far-fetched. Like Hibike Euphonium, is it really still "shipping" and "fan-fiction" when there isn't a convincing alternative interpretation of those Reina-Kumiko-scenes? I consider fan-fiction something that exists outside the canon, like Korrasami during the first two seasons. Fans make the case for an alternative version. It’s fine.

Adding to lingering sexual tension between characters on-screen is different, though. Especially when it comes to homosexuality! The line between friendship and romance becomes much more important, once homosexuality is normalized culturally. All the action-hero-friendships between dudes that seem overly gay in subtext become simply gay (like Top Gun for example… there’s certainly more chemistry between Vil Kalmer and Tom Cruise than between Tom Cruise and Kelly McGillis) or all those anime-girlfriends that seem a little bit too intimate for a normal school-friendship.

Whatever happened with the theory that Root was brought up by an alcoholic parent? What do you guys think about that? Considering the first time Root kidnapped Finch, some people said how she placated him after she subdued the guy who was beating on her was akin to a person who grew up with an alcoholic parent, and how people described her when she was young 'weird and alone' or something like that.

Yeah, I’ve watched that episode in the first season where Root’s past was introduced and… well, it was a gimmick of that episode that Team Machine thought they were pursuing a lead on the true identity of Root – but as it turns out they were investigating Root’s best friend instead. So there’s a ton of storytelling-bullshit in there where Hanna’s past gets explained in a way where you might think it may be Root. Of course, the dorky friend of Hanna who is the actual Root is only a sideshow during the exposition-parts of that episode (because plottwist…!).

But it’s a good theory, though. The whole “humans are bad code”-idea kinda indicates that she hasn’t met a lot of nice people in her life until then.

I expected them to be pretty much the same as before with the occasional subtle acknowledgement of feelings, so I was surprised to see in the glimpses we got that they were just so... warm with each other.

Yeah, I expected that as well, although I prefer character-developments over stale reiterations of the past. Like a "Oh, Shaw is traumatized... but after this funky little adventure she's good ol' Shaw again!"-storyline for example. That would've been terrible!

At least this was my takeaway, but Shaw's and Root's time apart confronted them with their love for each other. Shaw made Root her #1 reason to keep on fighting in the simulations and Root changed her tune from "Well, I just trust the Machine to know what's right." to "Sure, the Machine's great... but I want to save Sameen!". This doesn't mean 5th season writing was great in that regard but that's why we got this moment of Shaw saying "I would rather kill myself than endanger you, Root." and Root responding: "If I can't be with you, I might as well kill myself.". Now that I'm writing this, I'm thinking... Doesn't this kinda sound like Romeo & Juliet? It became an over-the-top romance in the 5th season that way, didn't it?

I am in the camp that Root is more or less the Machine, considering how they played it out after her death. I thought it was gonna be only her voice, but she got her mannerisms and everything so it's more of a rebirth than anything. Ascension perhaps?

I'm right there with you. The way I see it Root IS the Machine now. Samaritan tried to become an AI-overlord who would "fix" humanity because he considered himself better than humanity. Meanwhile, the Machine tried to be human. And when Control tortured Root, they actually talked about transcendence. At that point Control was mocking Root with that. But in that context, let’s not forget the whole “Analogue Interface”-period for the Machine. When Root was in the asylum, she talked with the Machine and discussed things with Her. But more importantly, remember that episode with the janitor who was completely Zen and Root had to save him? That was the Machine making a point to Root and convincing her to change her ways. So, in a way the Root of season 01 had disappeared a long time ago by the time Root “became” the Machine. The way Samaritan was grooming the boy to be his human face, the Machine was grooming Root.

And the little discrepancy between Root’s real personality and the Machine is Finch. The series actually talked about how the Machine imprinted on Finch like a chicken. Also, Finch explains at one point how making the Machine care about people is what made it work in the first place. So, if you want to be cynical the Machine-Root isn’t the real Root but “Root” has technically died at the end of season 02 anyway. The Root after that is already strongly influenced by the Machine (That’s why she didn’t jump ship and joined Team Samaritan as soon as Decima and Greer appeared). The discrepancy in the percentage is what used to make Root do evil stuff.

I’ve started rewatching the series (mostly because currently I’m only watching Preacher and Outcast) and I’ve finished the end of season 03 today. One thing that I have to say first is that the fifth season makes so much more sense in that context. Of course, I still think the 5th season felt very rushed but after seeing the first three seasons a lot of what happens there makes a lot more sense (or is less surprising and more a continuation of a little moment from before).

But back to Root and Shaw: I actually think that Shaw is someone who would be fine with having an AI as a girlfriend. One of those character-moments of Shaw’s past is the death of her father in a car-accident and how little reaction she showed to that. Then there’s this scene about why she was fired as a doctor (she tried her best to save a patient, failed but then went to their relatives and gave them the bad news… while eating a protein-bar because she was hungry). Then there was the episode with the little girl who said at the end that it isn’t like Shaw doesn’t feel anything but that her emotions are just very hard to hear for her. Also, there was this moment where Reese and her talked about their lovelife and Shaw said something along the lines of “a one-night-stand here and there but I don’t do relationships” (but at the end of the episode Carter goes off to see her son, Zoe goes with Reese and Shaw just takes Bear with her… I don’t know, but what if she lied and she is actually closer to being asexual as a rule and one-night-stands as an exception – with Root being the exception). And the way she interacted with Root, I don’t think that physical closeness was high on her priority-list. I think, Root would have a much bigger problem with Shaw just being a voice in her head. Because she’s a total romantic.

Also, I wonder: Does anybody know when the writers decided that Root and Shaw liked each other in a romantic way? In the last third of the third season Root definitely has become flirtatious (just from that last episode where Root and Shaw install the “hacked Samaritan-servers” and they had to put these transponders under their skin… Shaw is complaining “I can’t wait to get this thing out…” and Root is responding smiling: “I’ll do yours if you do mine.”). Before that, though, it actually seems like the Machine is the one who pairs them up. But while there’s nothing romantic going on between them, Shaw is the only one who’s at one point clamoring for Root to be freed (remember that time Root had to sit in the library because Finch didn’t trust her…?) so that she could help them. And there’s the weird parallel between Root and Shaw that both get in these torture-situations (first Root-Shaw, then Root-Control) where they both start out saying that they actually like the situation as if torture were a mere challenge to them. Of course, there’s a reason why people created RootxShaw-fanfic long before the series made it canon but I wonder if the creators of the show had that in mind when they wrote stuff like that.

In addition to that, the Reese-Carter-“love” was much more acceptable the second time around. There was actually “some” buildup. Reese constantly checked up on Carter making sure that she’s okay and when Reese and Shaw talk about their lovelife, Reese hesitates before declaring that Carter is just a co-worker. But I loved how Carter grew as a character in that third season. Instead of making her a sidekick to Reese/Finch she ended up being the hero of her own story. There are way too few series out there that allow secondary female characters to be that.

On the one hand, it's really good for the plot, in that it feels more dynamic, on the other hand, one of the most important/well executed things in this show suffered for it - exploring characters, and what drives them to do what they did.

It's difficult to say what is worse: A very episodic episode that rushes through things or watching a serialized episode that is nearly all setup for a future episode (Game Of Thrones has those occasionally, for example).

The bar for "good TV" is SO high these days! I mean, I doubt your average TV-show can afford what GoT is doing - and yet they potentially have to compete with it for attention.

Gotta have some cheesiness no?

I always say when it comes to cheese: Go big or go home! How about this uber-cheesy line: "The cop said 'Nobody dies alone - because someone will remember them.' And I will be the memory of all of humanity. That's why I will win against Samaritan: Because I have humanity on my side." :D

I agree, but that was more due to the writers playing it a little safe

In their defense, the TV-channel usually tries to enforce a "safe option" when the series' success is unsure. Especially with a series like POI that started out as one of those "crime-procedural with a twist"-thingies (thanks to Len Weisman, you can add Lucifer to that list).

Why should it be some big grand thing? They've always worked from the shadows.

I rewatched the 12th episode again before watching the final episode. And I guess what irked me the most was the pacing. Not in the sense that it was distracting or such. It's just you could easily imagine how a longer season would've turned the whole "What if Finch had never created the Machine?"-bit into an entire episode. Those concept-episodes were always a highlight and I really think that there was more to get out of that idea story-wise than what that episode offered.

The suffocating scene was a bit dramatic, yes, but I attribute it to Samaritan/Greer and how Greer has affected that ASI, there has always been some dramatic flair to everything they've done, so while they could've just shot him, it's kind of fitting, after all, Finch wouldn't have expected to kill both of them and it serves to show him that no one controls Samaritan, because they thought that Greer had some kind leash on it.

I've thought about that and... Doesn't it seem like this season was proposing the idea that both Samaritan and the Machine have become somewhat human? Instead of becoming aloof God-like figures they become more human the more time they spend on trying to understand humanity. And that's why Greer's flaws have become Samaritan's flaws while Finch's flaws have become the Machine's.

(Sorry for the late reply, telamon)

---

As for the final episode...

One thing that struck me was how this last season was about Team Machine. And in a way everybody has found the ending they "looked for", right? That's why they had this sequence of Reese as a kid and he got the heroic sacrifice he wanted (and I guess, the distinction is that he wasn't just a soldier-type saving the world in the name of duty but sacrificing himself for stuff that was meaningful to him personally). Fusco has completed his redemption-arc and has become a full member of Team Machine and a hero. And Finch has finally decided to stop punishing himself for ruining the world (by creating the Machine) and to let go of his relentless crusade.

Now as for Root... I think, what they're trying to say is that in a way she has also achieved a happy end because she has become the Machine. That's why at one point they showed Root herself in person (sort-of) talking to Finch.

I loved that line about Shaw being best described as a "straight line". And that makes it so fitting that she would become the new main-agent of the Machine/Root.

What I didn't like was how the episode used that tacky "Nobody truly dies alone - when someone remembers them."-line to explain how the Machine "cracked the code" of humanity. Well, and the Machine naturally won because Samaritan was a total debbie-downer.

It's a pity the series has ended. But this is a series I always offer as an example for shows that have grown to become great instead of starting out as great. Most of that first season wasn't that impressive. But after that it slowly became one of my favorite series. And I definitely plan to rewatch the whole series at some point.

12th Episode:

Am I the only one who thinks this all feels kinds anticlimactic? There's no dramatic plot-device the heroes have to deal with that decides the fate of the world. Instead it's all about Finch deciding to stop caring about just doing the right thing for the right reasons. And that's okay since the Machine has become a good guy now. Was the super-virus ever mentioned before this season? Or is it a real thing? And shouldn't Samaritan be smart enough to make it a priority to eliminate stuff like that?

The Greer/Finch-scene was interesting. I like Finch's suggestion that Samaritan's nature was determined by Greer, even though his whole idea is to let Samaritan be in control. But the whole airless room-thing seemed a bit contrived. Just command an agent to shoot him! There was no need to sacrifice Greer!

Also interesting was to show how much the Machine cares about people by showing that a lot of people in Team Machine would've been worse off without the Machine. And the fact that a significant number of Team Machine wouldn't be good guys without the Machine is also something I hadn't really considered before. In that way it's very different from Samaritan which would just kill anyone who gets in its way.

The Samaritan-aspect of that simulation seems overly convenient, though, for the argument that the Machine is making. Wasn't a necessary part of activating Samaritan some computer-code that Finch had to give Greer & co? It should be more like that argument you hear in comics often where the appearance of super-heroes leads to the rise of super-villains. But here the claim is that Samaritan would control the world unchecked without the Machine.

That was an awesome episode, kind of stretched it a bit (a lot) with the president being their number but whatever.

Yeah, the whole story about this group of rich, well-connected people becoming sort-of terrorists to fight the surveillance state wasn't very compelling. I think, theoretically that story should've been much bigger. It isn't just that Samaritan didn't think the US-President was relevant. It's also that apparently Samaritan didn't give a shit about these well-connected terrorists.

It looks like Root was the bridge between the Machine and Harold in a way that no other person would be able to be, which just adds another layer of complexity towards the whole thing and I absolutely love it.

I read it as "Root spoke for the Machine before She had her own voice.". And there was also this line in there where She talked about how Root did bad things but then became good. It makes me think that this is also about the Machine. Before the Machine was more or less just a very powerful AI with a lot of shackles on what it can and can't do and it was all about humans wanting to use it, whether it was for good or evil. But now the Machine wants to do things of its own accord, like Samaritan does, and it wants to help people. And for that she wants to be Root. It isn't just her voice, it's the whole persona she seems to want to emulate.

Gotta say though I enjoyed seeing previous numbers, and they set for a possible sequel/spin-off with the final scene.

You certainly could widen the scope of the show thanks to that. Instead of just having a Team Machine, it becomes a whole global organization.

As expected though, Shaw still thinks that it's all a simulation.

Shaw's character-arc in this episode was another weak part. I mean, they covered it in VERY broad strokes. Because her last line to Reese when they were in army-uniform made me think that it indicated her finally coming to terms with Root's death (oh man, I can't wait to see her reaction when she hears the Machine talk for the first time ^^ ...). All the stuff before that was about anger, denial and so on and so forth. But the plot didn't really support the story of that arc. You just saw signs of where her mind's at here and there and suddenly at the end, she's (sort-of) fine.

TB

This is off-topic, but since Nancy Drew was mentioned earlier, here's a link to a wonderfully blunt quote from Sarah Shahi about the pilot: "It didn’t go and I’m very happy it didn’t go. It was not good." Well, at least we know we're not missing out.

Who knows. None of us have seen it. It was a hyped series and it was sad to see it cancelled with the leaked words "Too female.". But of course, that doesn't mean it actually was a great pilot. But we talked about this before: A series doesn't have to be great from the get-go. The Golden Age of TV has created this precedence, though, with a lot of great shows but in reality the pilot is rarely the best part of a TV-show. Some shows do need time to find their footing before becoming great.

But the bottom-line is: We haven't seen the pilot and it wasn't our decision to make.

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Overall, another entertaining episode. And let me take this time to say that I love the score by Ramin Djawadi! It's the kind of score that adds to a scene or a dramatic moment. Whenever I remember a scene from the series, I also hear that soundtrack in the background.

People in the TV industry have been saying that Netflix and other similar websites have brought on a new TV era, but that broadcast networks would need a few years to adjust, and to do that they would need to drop the Nielsen model they use for ratings because it’s completely obsolete now.

But a TV-channel can conceptually not keep up with Netflix. I mean, the whole binging-idea behind shows like House Of Cards, Daredevil or Jessica Jones can’t exactly be replicated on TV. Sitting in front of a TV at a specific time is very inconvenient but necessary if the show is heavily serialized in terms of story. What you compete with on TV, I feel like, is comfort-food like some CSI-type-series.

But the problem with big corporations is always that when they think about how good a new TV-show should be they’re not thinking about POI, Maron or Enlisted. The goal is never “some money”, it’s always “all the money”. If it isn’t the greatest thing ever, there’s always the possibility of some channel-executive saying “Nah, not good enough…”.

Their official justification was that they picked the best pilots, but then I’ve heard that the pilot for their MacGyver reboot was received so badly by the test audience they had to recast many roles and reshoot most of it. And it still got picked up.

Sure, that’s why there are shows out there which got cancelled after one season… Because it’s always only the BEST series that get picked up…

What a bunch of horseshit…

And picking up a series like a new MacGyver is just the sort of scared thing a TV-channel would do. They try to play it safe by accommodating nostalgia and familiarity to be the motivation for the audience to tune in each week.

If they’re REALLY scared, maybe we’ll even get the gritty reboot of the series ^^ .

Because you know what MacGuyver lacked as a character…? Dead parents.

New shows have to be great from the start, but first-season success is rare and many of the shows that achieve it quickly drop in quality because the showrunners let the hype get to their heads.

Well, they didn’t call it the Golden Age of TV for nothing :D .

I mean, just to take some recent series: Watch the first episode of Better Call Saul and the first episode of that Minority-Report-TV-Show. It’s like these shows live in two different universes as far as quality is concerned. With such high standards it’s hard to imagine a show being tolerated long enough to “get good” after 50 episodes or so.

I wish we'd had more time to see these two readjust to having each other in their lives again, but I liked that the one scene we got of Root proving to Shaw she wasn’t in a simulation was so typical of her character, and of what Samaritan misunderstood about her. Root would never stand there and watch Shaw shoot herself, she’s so reckless she nearly fell off a building to pressure the Machine into helping her. When I watched 5x04 many things that the characters said or did seemed in character at first, and it didn’t even seem odd to me that Samaritan (or Shaw or both) thought that Root would let Shaw kill herself. But when she pulled a gun on herself in the real world I thought, of course she would do that.

(Because I need to come back to POI at some point, right ^^ ?)

And it underlines again this idea of simulating being all about knowing the people. The better the AI knows someone the better it can simulate them. Maybe you could argue that the reason why the simulations Shaw endured didn’t work isn't just because Shaw is a badass but also because Samaritan actually couldn’t provide a good simulation.

last edited at Jun 4, 2016 3:00PM

When the cast and crew have to confirm on Twitter that something did happen, maybe the writing wasn’t as tight as it usually is.

Well, POI’s writer-room loves complex plots combined with complex themes. The way season 03 and 04 were handled, they were good despite the odds. The amount of ‘stuff’ those seasons had to deal with was astonishing. That recent Captain-America-movie was the same: There was a ton of stuff to deal with – but both the script-writers and the directors found a way to deal with it. Was it flawless? Of course not. Telling a challenging story well isn’t the same as telling a good story well. But it’s like comparing landing on the moon and a good acrobatics-performance. The former is all about pushing boundaries while the latter is all about style. What makes POI such a great series isn’t the idea that it’s revolutionary or something.

What makes it great is how it shows that you can actually do ambitious shows within the confines of a traditional TV-model. Stuff like Sopranos, Mad Men, Breaking Bad: That’s pushing the boundaries of how to perceive Television. POI is about using VERY familiar tropes and just take control of it. Good casting is one element, character-heavy writing is another. I think, the biggest reason why POI could move away from the procedural model because it shifted the focus away from the procedural. Instead, the focus was on the characters now. But it wasn’t in the way of offering tiresome background-stories. The characterization was all about building up rapport and distinct, individualistic character-beats. A Root-Shaw-scene is different from a Root-Finch-scene – not just in terms of characterization but also in terms of story. In a way, characterization has become the filter for the series that indicates how to presents its plot and story. I mean, the whole dialogue about Machine searching for its own voice: Could this topic be raised in any scene other than a Finch/Root-scene?

I know it’s petty and not the fault of anyone working on Limitless, but I thought it was kind of satisfying that the show CBS made to replace POI, except they did own this one and they could make it into the show they wanted POI to be, was cancelled after one season.

Well, here’s another great problem for TV-series in 2016 and beyond: If your show has received the by-the-numbers-treatment and simply seems dull, you get cancelled – but if you go off the rails immediately in the first season, you get cancelled as well. Of course, as long as you’re entertaining and/or attract a lot of viewers, that previous stuff doesn’t matter.

Yeah, and the Machine did way better than Samaritan, but there were still a few things it couldn’t account for, like Shaw’s unpredictability.

The moment where that one Samaritan-agent confronted Shaw with the possibility of it all being just another simulation was SO totally Shaw. He tries to create existential angst and Shaw just shoots him. Instead of worrying about the question of reality she just does what she always would’ve done in that situation.

You certainly could’ve done more with the later Shaw-Root-scene. Shaw was always the one sacrificing herself in the simulations in order to protect Root – but the moment she confronts Root in reality with that, she just says “Well, then I will kill myself as well.” If the series had had more time you really could’ve made fun of the differences between all the simulations Shaw has endured and what would really happen in those circumstances.

Re: Nancy Drew, that was a mess and CBS sucks. At least the hashtag #toofemale went viral. I think the problem was both “too female” and “not white enough” for their audience. It sucks for Sarah Shahi, though. She deserves to have her own show.

I’m not sure if those were official comments. But the whole debacle certainly showed how TV-channels would be wise to rethink their pilot-season-programming. Of course, this doesn’t mean that simply letting viewers decide which series should be picked up would solve the problem. In fact, the most benevolent solution is to embrace shittiness and hope for the best. Series used to have a long grace-period to get “good”. TV-series these days don’t have that luxury. At the same time, though, you don’t want to alienate potential viewers but challenging them too much.

That would all change if series like Nancy Drew ended up getting made – but only because social media (Kickstarter etc.) enabled it to do so. Who knows how good or bad that pilot had been. I certainly wouldn’t feel more comfortable about the cancellation if I had seen the pilot and would’ve been able to judge myself how bad or good the series seems.

Alternatively, I would've liked to see John die instead of Root (as was intended for 4x11), cause he is much more attached to him than to her.

And it would make so much more sense for him to sacrifice himself. He's the "soldier" of Team Machine. If anyone were to die first, it would be him. Root's death in comparison is much more complicated. But then again adapting Root's voice is more fitting for the Machine than if it were John's.

It was rushed, parts of it made no sense, people monologued left and right, and things were introduced out of the blue (why would Samaritan agents carry business cards? And why do we only now find out about this company?). It felt like a simulation, yet it wasn’t.

Yeah, it was kinda similar to the simplistic logic of the simulation. There Shaw’s plan had simply been: Attract the attention of Samaritan, ambush Samaritan agents and use them as starting-point to track down the Samaritan-leadership. And Roots little speeches about The Machine started to feel like preaching.

But if you think about what exactly the episode was trying to get at, then it’s still very good storytelling. But I agree with you that the rushed presentation of all these character- and story-beats certainly didn’t help. There were too many moments that were more about plot than story.

On top of that, the network did their best to fuck them over at every turn and kill the show, and insisted that they keep the Number of the Week format for most of the season (this was in a Buzzfeed interview, but I’m on mobile right now).

POI is a curious case in that department, I would say. Conceptually it started out as an episodic series in the first season. The meta-story revolved heavily around creating episodic stories. Naturally it also had some “mythology”-episodes for its season-finale. But the “mythology” of the show had started to take over the show. It has become more and more serialized with each season. Especially with season three and four the show started creating these season-long conflicts between Team Machine and multiple factions. Also, the show actually doubled down on its more sci-fi-y elements. And that’s why the show’s so great!

But on the other hand… since it has become less episodic and crime-procedural-y with each season and since less and less people are actually watching TV… It’s a testament to the show’s quality that it actually lasted this long.

With the technology they have in this universe, Root shouldn’t have been able to upload her consciousness into the Machine and at best she told it everything about her so it could store her memories and emulate her personality, but it won’t be Root.

Well, that’s an age-old question for the Sci-Fi-genre, isn’t it? The way I see it, the show presents the opinion that a super-AI can preserve a human in digital form – if the AI knows the human person very well. The simulation is getting closer to the real thing the more the AI knows about what it’s simulating. And there was the episode where The Machine had to simulate versions of how Team Machine could escape a hairy situation where it proved to have a deep knowledge of what makes everyone tick.

Of course, once you get into religious territory, stuff like souls would complicate matters in this regard. And you can question the AI’s objectivity while simulating something. Finch certainly would be against trusting an AI to replicate a human (or he would’ve been… who knows what his stance on AIs is after the last episode).

In any case, I wish this season had aired last fall, before the great TV lesbian slaughter of 2016 made the current conversation happen. I mean, I’m glad it’s happening (as doubtful as I am that it will change anything), but it's infuriating to see people who never watched POI gleefully add Root to their lists of dead lesbians to make their point, without considering the context.

I mean, I have nothing against homosexual relationships ending in tragedy – unless it’s systemic. You don’t want to create tropes à la a “redshirt” that acts like a “redshirt”, talks like a “redshirt” and dies like a “redshirt”. The moment it becomes a stereotype you need to subvert that as a storyteller somehow. Of course, that’s difficult to do nowadays with how fast the internet is in creating stereotypes and how slow-witted a TV-series-production-schedule can be in response to such trends. Just take Sarah Shahi’s role in the new Nancy-Drew-series: It sounded like the series was trying to go for a grittier version of Veronica Mars with Sarah Shahi as a grown-up somewhat traumatized Nancy Drew. The series had garnered a lot of hype on the internet before it even started. But in the end, it got cancelled before it even started. Who knows how bad or actually good the pilot had been. But it’s striking how instead of committing to the series to get the support of all those who hyped the idea of this series, they made up their mind and cancelled it immediately instead. It seems to signal that they still think of about who will potentially watch the show on TV instead of thinking about how they can milk internet-fandom. Apparently that’s not the audience they’re thinking about.

Well, it kinda underlines the "unscripted"-part, doesn't it? The romantic subtext didn't need to be there for that story-arc to work but since it got added to the mix...

What you're saying, telamon, makes sense. For me, I got all that but the whole romance-subtext didn't feel right to me. And so when the series tried to communicate why Reese was so distraught, the sense of "falseness" surrounding the romance was distracting.

The kiss being unscripted makes sense. It was unexpected (at least to me). And when Reese briefly left Team Machine it seemed like it happened because Carter wasn't just an important member of Team Machine but was also someone he loved. The series committed to this idea of Reese actually having loved Carter. So, depending on whether you've bought into the idea of Reese being romantically interested in Carter, this certain character-arc was either tragic or just frustrating.

last edited at Jun 1, 2016 6:23PM

I'm sorry, bob2alien, for ranting about that. The OVA makes the series seem so dumb. Remember that friend of Kumiko who was in love with the guy but got shot down by the guy pretty much immediately after the confession? In the OVA there's a scene where that girl talks to that other bubbly friend and she's like "Oh man, it seems like that guy's already in a relationship with Kumiko... I shouldn't interfere...". But the bubbly girl's like "No, go for it! You have to be honest about your feelings no matter what!". Talk about dramatic irony... And then it all ends with her telling the guy "Man up, dude! Kumiko's waiting for you...". And then it leads to the fist-bumping-scene. You're left to wonder: Was Kumiko really just waiting for the dude to be more honest about his feelings? Who knows...

Yeah, third season... Reese kinda suddenly had a thing for Carter - only in time for her to die. And remember, there was this whole thing of Reese disappearing and Fusco had to bring him back... Not the greatest moment of the show.

Worse than "Hibike! Euphonium"? Have you seen the OVA? I mean, I ship Kumiko and Reina, too... of course. The way they were written in the anime, it's only natural. But I thought the way that series treated its more serious relationships was kinda confusing. The supposed blooming of a romance between that dude and Kumiko was as poorly developed as that so-called "romance" between Reese and Carter in POI. And the relationship between Kumiko and Reina is like if Shaw and Root had continuously flirted with each other but the series would have treated it like they're just REALLY good friends.

Hibike! Euphonium is a series I really do not like...

I'd be happy if the series were to end with this season. If there were more seasons, it would be great - but at least the writers could approach this whole season with a series-finale in mind. Things could be worse.

@telamon: Naturally, their date would be some sort of action-packed mission where they can kick ass :D .

I actually also think that this will be all about Team Machine dying and living on in The Machine. Remember the beginning of this season where we heard the people of Team Machine talk about their achievements?

Also, I think this will be what will enable the Machine to beat Samaritan: It will take on a human perspective instead of the perspective of an super-AI. In the recent episode Root mentioned how Finch had never treated the Machine like a human being (the Machine has no name, no voice etc.). And what, I guess, Root was trying to get at with her whole talk about giving the Machine more power was about giving her a chance to become more of an individual. In addition to that, Samaritan's perspective is all about how humanity sucks. Maybe the Machine will be in contrast to that about the hopeful potential of humanity to do good.

It's sad to see Root die... But (this is me, I guess, just basically writing fanfic) since it's been established how good VR is in this world and with Root making the argument that essentially everything is a simulation in some way or other and Root talking about how she will be preserved through the Machine... Shaw could still "technically" go on dates with Root in a virtual simulation, right? RIGHT?!

This chapter and the last one have been an improvement over what the last couple chapters have done. The build-up with the three women landing at a party, Norae getting drunk and getting somewhat intimate with Seola was a good start. And then Sungpyo entered the picture. What certainly made the last chapter great was that it was just more evidence of how determined Seola is in pursuing Norae. Sungpyo was the episodic “plot-complication” here and while Seola dealt with that incidental complication the narrative overall reinforced our images of the characters involved without delivering any sort of character-development.

That chapter didn’t cover any new ground story-wise or characterization-wise but it was another one of those chapters that neatly summarized a couple plot-points from previous chapters. The way I see it, the chapter was about comparing Seola showing more determination to stay at Norae’s side than Sungpyo. Rather than how inappropriate Sungpyo’s words were I think what’s more important is that he didn’t really try very hard to stay at Norae’s side when Seola acted so hostile. Even if Sungpyo is still in love with Norae, the series certainly portrays him as someone who gives up VERY quickly. Meanwhile, Seola is someone who just stubbornly refuses to give up and it really doesn’t seem like there’s anything that would keep her from romantically pursuing Norae.

Nobody of this is new information, though. It just reinforces the image we have of the characters and sadly the most relevant character right now was just a drunk deadweight in this little “episode”. It’s already been established that Norae isn’t exactly honest when she’s sober but the series still hasn’t answered the question why she’s acting that way. As an insular, incidental “episode” chapter 67 and 68 work great but if past chapters are any indication the series won’t let events escalate from how Seola politely told Sungpyo to “piss off” when he offered to take care of unconscious Norae. There just will be a sort-of reset for the start of the next “episode”. What I fear is gonna happen is that Norae will do something silly, Seola will be there to take care of her but there’s also this spineless asshole Sungpyo who still kinda acts like Norae’s boyfriend without ever committing to any sort of trusting relationship.

@cipp

I'm not saying FF is perfect by any means, or that it's above criticism, but I do think some people need to re-examine their expectations for the series.

I think that’s what all comes down to, doesn’t it? Nobody says FF is flawless and I think we pretty much all agree that the highlights are the characters and especially the little romantic moments of their interactions. But as a series FF isn‘t equally satisfying for all of us right now.

FF is generally structured as a series of episodes that are very loosely connected plot-wise.

And very loosely structured. Let’s not forget that. All the secondary plot-stuff in FF which could help sell this episodic format aren’t the strong foundation they need to be for this episodically paced romance-story. FF would certainly be a better slice-of-life if the characters‘ lives were more interesting to talk about. That doesn’t mean they have to be more exciting. It just needs to be something worth talking about and not just a joke or the newest plot-complication for one of those „episodes“.

FF is generally structured as a series of episodes that are very loosely connected plot-wise. Just like real life, not every piece of story has consequences for some greater overarching narrative. And just like real life, the level of excitement goes up and down. Sometimes things seem like they're about to reach a head but then you lose the moment.

Hmm, but couldn’t you actually look at these points as a description of episodic storytelling in general? Like, any secondary, romantic will-they-or-won’t-they-plot in a crime-procedural can have big romantic moments in one episode but we don’t expect this romance to get resolved in that episode or the next or change their dynamic fundamentally or have a big impact on the procedural.

after the ski trip, just because Seol-a never went "hey No-rae, let's talk about how we almost kissed last night" (which would make no sense/be OOC?)

I see it that way: The problem here is rising expectations. The bigger the romantic moment is the higher the audience’s expectations for its consequences are. Imagine the same scene with its result just being Norae blushing and trying to leave the room as fast as possible. It’s easier to imagine that moment to not have very big consequences. Sure, then some of the less satisfied readers will say “Where’s my progress?!” but if Ssamba’s style isn’t interested in creating a consequence-driven escalation and creating mounting tension (as you say, it just goes up and down) in the narrative why include such a big moment like a nearly-kissing-scene in the first place? Now some people hope something will happen in chapter 69. And I think that’s still rising expectations at work here. I think we all looked at that moment and thought: “What will happen next?”

ssamba usually leaves just enough hints to point us in the right direction, and every once in a while gives more direct guidance via stuff like internal monologues.

So it IS inconsistent. But you’re also right in describing it as deliberate. It isn’t like any chapter has fallen apart internally because of these choices. I just wish there would be some sort of pattern to these stylistic choice besides Ssamba’s personal preference for how she wants to present a chapter.

What a strange discussion...

Regarding the lack of communication between Seola and Norae the series has already offered one half of the answer. Chapter 66 offers the abbreviated version of what we've seen in the previous couple chapters. Seola is trying to seduce Norae and she has been in many relationships before, "just going with the flow" as it was described. The difference this time around is how Norae behaves and how Seola feels about her. The latter certainly makes it seem like an “I’ve been in many relationships – but this is the first time I’ve been in love with someone”-story. And the former is the obstacle Seola has to “overcome” so-to-speak. Norae is basically stonewalling her whenever she attempts to seduce her and Seola doesn’t know what she’s doing wrong. Also, since she’s in love with her she’s very fearful of actually doing something wrong. And we’ve seen this frustration a couple times now when Seola talks with others about her relationship with Norae.

The other half is Norae. But who knows what’s going on in her head… And I think there isn’t much more you can get out of a Seola POV at this point except to see her suffer until some miracle happens. That’s why the last couple chapters don’t seem like they’ve moved forward the story. Seola herself doesn’t know how to progress. Which is why I think a shift to a Norae-POV is long overdue.

Of course, this is different from the flow of the story. This reaction of “But why aren’t they just talking to each other?! Why’s nothing happening after these big moments?!” is created by the choices Ssamba makes. The writing’s at fault here for creating awful time-jumps between chapters that go against the natural flow of the story and the dialogue and inner monologues don’t reflect the readers’ understanding of the situation. Another reason why it’s hard to get a read on the characters’ mindsets in this series is that Ssamba is very inconsistent in how much access we get to a character’s thoughts. Sometimes we get a chapter like 66 where we get wordy inner monologues from one character, then there are chapters like 64 where you don’t know what anyone’s thinking and in chapter 63 there are only a couple little thought-bubbles. But it’s Norae whose actions seem more questionable as it’s her mostly just reacting to Seolas seduction-attempts and yet you can definitely see how most of the time it’s Seola’s thoughts we see in the last dozen chapters or so.

As for the whole notion of “Maybe it’s made more for Korean audiences.”. Well, Joisea already rightly pointed out that the series has international appeal. The reason for that, I think, is that it’s a romance-story mainly focused on the emotional struggles of the characters. There’s no societal struggle à la “Look how hard it is to be gay!” going on. So the Korean setting is less important and what’s really important are the characters themselves.