Who knows. None of us have seen it. It was a hyped series and it was sad to see it cancelled with the leaked words "Too female.". But of course, that doesn't mean it actually was a great pilot. But we talked about this before: A series doesn't have to be great from the get-go. The Golden Age of TV has created this precedence, though, with a lot of great shows but in reality the pilot is rarely the best part of a TV-show. Some shows do need time to find their footing before becoming great.

But the bottom-line is: We haven't seen the pilot and it wasn't our decision to make.

Fair point. I don't know if it's "common practice" for pilots to be leaked or if most of them never see the light of day, but I'd be curious to see this one. It could've grown into something good, but the way Shahi seemed to completely dismiss it makes me think she didn't have much hope of that happening (could just be her usual brutal honesty though). But yeah, we'll never know.

The thing that annoys me with person of interest is how stubborn Harold is. How could he not have some foresight that his friends were going to die what with Samaritan controlling everything? So many times Root told him that he needs to give the machine the tools to fight. Yet, Harold ignored those warnings because of his stubbornness and now he decides to fight back.

Finch can make you want to bang your head against a wall sometimes. I try to see things from his point of view, and I try to keep in mind the explanations for his behavior I've seen–that he's always been a potentially very dangerous person and has to keep himself in check. He isn't afraid of what the Machine would do if he unleashed her completely, he's afraid of what he would do with all that power. But still, when people keep dropping like flies around him and he refuses to change anything about his strategy, his continued inaction gets frustrating.

12th Episode:

Am I the only one who thinks this all feels kinds anticlimactic? There's no dramatic plot-device the heroes have to deal with that decides the fate of the world. Instead it's all about Finch deciding to stop caring about just doing the right thing for the right reasons. And that's okay since the Machine has become a good guy now. Was the super-virus ever mentioned before this season? Or is it a real thing? And shouldn't Samaritan be smart enough to make it a priority to eliminate stuff like that?

The Greer/Finch-scene was interesting. I like Finch's suggestion that Samaritan's nature was determined by Greer, even though his whole idea is to let Samaritan be in control. But the whole airless room-thing seemed a bit contrived. Just command an agent to shoot him! There was no need to sacrifice Greer!

Also interesting was to show how much the Machine cares about people by showing that a lot of people in Team Machine would've been worse off without the Machine. And the fact that a significant number of Team Machine wouldn't be good guys without the Machine is also something I hadn't really considered before. In that way it's very different from Samaritan which would just kill anyone who gets in its way.

The Samaritan-aspect of that simulation seems overly convenient, though, for the argument that the Machine is making. Wasn't a necessary part of activating Samaritan some computer-code that Finch had to give Greer & co? It should be more like that argument you hear in comics often where the appearance of super-heroes leads to the rise of super-villains. But here the claim is that Samaritan would control the world unchecked without the Machine.

Why should it be some big grand thing? They've always worked from the shadows. The Machine has always been the good guy and most of the technical stuff in the show is real or at least based on real stuff. I think there was a tumblr post somewhere or at least some kind of thing that showed everything that was referenced in the show that were real things that only people who know computers would know. Samaritan wouldn't know they would do that since it can't monitor them, and didn't make countermeasures because it thought that they wouldn't do anything to hurt the Machine.

Personally for me, it was kind of expected they'd go this way, instead of all guns blazing and something big happening. It's always been that one person could affect something, and it's continued here as well, with support from other people.

The suffocating scene was a bit dramatic, yes, but I attribute it to Samaritan/Greer and how Greer has affected that ASI, there has always been some dramatic flair to everything they've done, so while they could've just shot him, it's kind of fitting, after all, Finch wouldn't have expected to kill both of them and it serves to show him that no one controls Samaritan, because they thought that Greer had some kind leash on it.

Why would it be convenient? Arthur already was building the ASI, when Finch finished his, so it comes to reason, that if Finch didn't build the Machine, the government would take what Arthur built. The only reason it needed computer code was because the Machine existed and it tried to remove Samaritan or at least, not activate it. Samaritan was gonna be live, no matter if the Machine existed or not. It's also kind of fitting that Root would go to Samaritan's side because the Machine wasn't 'alive' and the team never encountered her.

last edited at Jun 16, 2016 11:18AM

I saw a few theories about the virus and while the most probable one is that it's a random virus that we only just learned about, there's a possibility that would make more sense. The password is a reference to the Jane Austen novel Shaw was looking at in Root's room, and that novel is a callback to the book Harold gave to Grace to propose to her. People on the Internet are observant, seriously, that was one obscure reference. So it could be a copy of the virus Finch created when he was young that got him labeled a traitor.
There are two problems with that, though. I don't think anyone mentioned where the virus came from, and surely they weren't expecting their audience to understand a callback to a minor detail from seasons ago; and could a virus created decades ago still run on current hardware and cause mayhem? I know nothing about programming but that sounds like a stretch. Still, it's all I've got. It's better than the "deadly virus out of nowhere" explanation, I guess?

Since I haven't actually said what I thought about the last two episodes: they were okay. 11 was good as a standalone, but its placement in the season was puzzling. The idea of the Machine recruiting other people to handle irrelevant numbers has been a popular theory for a long time, but revealing their existence in that particular episode was a bit of a slap in the face. There were other assets all along that could've helped Finch when his cover was blown, and the Machine has ways around her limitations when it's plot-convenient, but somehow she didn't deploy all her resources to protect him?

Which brings me to Root. I was always going to be annoyed by the way they discarded her just to shock the audience, but I was waiting to see how they handled the aftermath, maybe it would all make sense then? So far, it hasn't, and I doubt the finale is going to change anything. Obviously we couldn't get an entire episode dedicated to the team mourning and avenging her like we did for Carter, but I thought we'd see more urgency, that the stakes would be upped dramatically now that their already small team is down one member. I thought her death would mean something. Instead it was business as usual.
I have a rather cynical theory about this. The fact that Finch went on a solo mission to take down Samaritan, especially in episode 12, seems to corroborate it. I think POI was his story all along. It wasn't an ensemble cast, or even the Reese and Finch show. The plot was about him. There have been tangents and digressions, but for the grand finale they had to go back to the basics. They needed him to have actual conversations with the Machine instead of showing words on a screen for two episodes, and the Machine using Root's voice made the most logical sense. She technically could've done that while Root was alive, but it would've been confusing for the audience. I think the more sensible choice would've been to have Root physically present to protect Harold while she relayed the Machine's words, like she did in 3x12 and 4x10. We would've gotten Finch/Machine, Finch/Root, Root/Machine dynamics, it would've been perfect. But that would have taken the focus away from Finch as the main character on his heroic quest, and that would've been unacceptable, so Root had to go.

I can't pretend to speculate about the finale since I'm spoiled, but I hope you guys enjoy it. I'm curious to see it play out on screen.

Well, that's the end I guess. I would've been mighty pissed if it was only Root who died, but at least John died as well xD

Sadly, Finch got his happy ending despite everything, so I'm a bit irked about that. I would've been content if it was only Lionel or Lionel and Shaw (and Bear) the only ones alive, but yeah. I am happy that the Machine chose to contact Shaw though (and the first words to her will always be 'Hello, sweetie.' to me) and that she was also happy to hear from her xD Fanfic authors are gonna have a blast with that.

I'll let it settle before I write anything more, but yeah. Happy-ish with the ending, not so happy with Finch getting his happily ever after.

Why should it be some big grand thing? They've always worked from the shadows.

I rewatched the 12th episode again before watching the final episode. And I guess what irked me the most was the pacing. Not in the sense that it was distracting or such. It's just you could easily imagine how a longer season would've turned the whole "What if Finch had never created the Machine?"-bit into an entire episode. Those concept-episodes were always a highlight and I really think that there was more to get out of that idea story-wise than what that episode offered.

The suffocating scene was a bit dramatic, yes, but I attribute it to Samaritan/Greer and how Greer has affected that ASI, there has always been some dramatic flair to everything they've done, so while they could've just shot him, it's kind of fitting, after all, Finch wouldn't have expected to kill both of them and it serves to show him that no one controls Samaritan, because they thought that Greer had some kind leash on it.

I've thought about that and... Doesn't it seem like this season was proposing the idea that both Samaritan and the Machine have become somewhat human? Instead of becoming aloof God-like figures they become more human the more time they spend on trying to understand humanity. And that's why Greer's flaws have become Samaritan's flaws while Finch's flaws have become the Machine's.

(Sorry for the late reply, telamon)

---

As for the final episode...

One thing that struck me was how this last season was about Team Machine. And in a way everybody has found the ending they "looked for", right? That's why they had this sequence of Reese as a kid and he got the heroic sacrifice he wanted (and I guess, the distinction is that he wasn't just a soldier-type saving the world in the name of duty but sacrificing himself for stuff that was meaningful to him personally). Fusco has completed his redemption-arc and has become a full member of Team Machine and a hero. And Finch has finally decided to stop punishing himself for ruining the world (by creating the Machine) and to let go of his relentless crusade.

Now as for Root... I think, what they're trying to say is that in a way she has also achieved a happy end because she has become the Machine. That's why at one point they showed Root herself in person (sort-of) talking to Finch.

I loved that line about Shaw being best described as a "straight line". And that makes it so fitting that she would become the new main-agent of the Machine/Root.

What I didn't like was how the episode used that tacky "Nobody truly dies alone - when someone remembers them."-line to explain how the Machine "cracked the code" of humanity. Well, and the Machine naturally won because Samaritan was a total debbie-downer.

It's a pity the series has ended. But this is a series I always offer as an example for shows that have grown to become great instead of starting out as great. Most of that first season wasn't that impressive. But after that it slowly became one of my favorite series. And I definitely plan to rewatch the whole series at some point.

I rewatched the 12th episode again before watching the final episode. And I guess what irked me the most was the pacing. Not in the sense that it was distracting or such. It's just you could easily imagine how a longer season would've turned the whole "What if Finch had never created the Machine?"-bit into an entire episode. Those concept-episodes were always a highlight and I really think that there was more to get out of that idea story-wise than what that episode offered.

Yeah, that's why I said that I like and hate at the same time that it's not a full season. On the one hand, it's really good for the plot, in that it feels more dynamic, on the other hand, one of the most important/well executed things in this show suffered for it - exploring characters, and what drives them to do what they did.

What I didn't like was how the episode used that tacky "Nobody truly dies alone - when someone remembers them."-line to explain how the Machine "cracked the code" of humanity. Well, and the Machine naturally won because Samaritan was a total debbie-downer.

Gotta have some cheesiness no? xD

Most of that first season wasn't that impressive.

I agree, but that was more due to the writers playing it a little safe and showing as much of the 'lore' as it is of the world before they went whole-heartedly in the swing of things. I've always liked the flashbacks they showed for the characters. I think I've mentioned this before, but 1x04 is still one of my favorite episodes, just for the final scene and how it leaves it open-ended.

On the one hand, it's really good for the plot, in that it feels more dynamic, on the other hand, one of the most important/well executed things in this show suffered for it - exploring characters, and what drives them to do what they did.

It's difficult to say what is worse: A very episodic episode that rushes through things or watching a serialized episode that is nearly all setup for a future episode (Game Of Thrones has those occasionally, for example).

The bar for "good TV" is SO high these days! I mean, I doubt your average TV-show can afford what GoT is doing - and yet they potentially have to compete with it for attention.

Gotta have some cheesiness no?

I always say when it comes to cheese: Go big or go home! How about this uber-cheesy line: "The cop said 'Nobody dies alone - because someone will remember them.' And I will be the memory of all of humanity. That's why I will win against Samaritan: Because I have humanity on my side." :D

I agree, but that was more due to the writers playing it a little safe

In their defense, the TV-channel usually tries to enforce a "safe option" when the series' success is unsure. Especially with a series like POI that started out as one of those "crime-procedural with a twist"-thingies (thanks to Len Weisman, you can add Lucifer to that list).

Finale spoilers below. I wrote a lot again. Oops?

Predictably, the fandom was very divided about the ending. Some thought it was all right, others thought it was THE BEST, others thought it was a pathetic limp to the finish line. I thought it was emotional and satisfying in some parts, which was a relief after the lackluster previous two episodes and the mess that was episode 10. In any case, I'm sad the show ended. It really was an amazing ride for the most part.

There's one thing I need to get off my chest, and then I'll move on to the (more) positive stuff.

When you look at it through the lens of the representation of minorities (which I have to do, because I spend way too much time on the Internet), this ending was really bad... or as Tumblr would say, ~problematic~. A straight couple got an ass-pull happy ending while the same-sex couple got a tragic ending, the male leads got the meaningful last conversation that the women couldn't get, a white man got a drawn-out, heroic death (and got an actual burial under his real name might I add) and neither the black woman nor the lesbian did, two men survived serious wounds with no explanation (especially Finch should have bled out after walking around for hours with a bullet in his gut), and a woman resisted months of torture only to be haunted for the rest of her life by her dead girlfriend's voice. When you look at it this way, it isn't pretty. I was able to take more from the ending than this, but I can't fault anyone who can't look past it.

Okay. Now that that's over with:

The Reese/Finch scenes were great. They got a really emotional goodbye after the years they spent together. It was fitting that they were both willing to sacrifice themselves for the other. Reese having an arrangement with the Machine was a nice touch, he wasn't as close to her as Root and Finch were but they did have some sort of relationship. I love Reese and I was sad to see him go, but it was necessary. If all the male characters had survived, it would have ruined the entire show. And it really was the only possible ending for him. As the Machine said, he'd been living on borrowed time. He got a great sendoff.

Fusco didn't really have much to do compared to the others, but I'm glad he survived. It's clear now that much of this episode was about John's big sacrifice and with the way it was set up, any other major death would've taken away from it. At least Fusco and Shaw have one other person who knows what they've been through.

I loved that we got so much time with Amy Acker on screen, even if only as the Machine's avatar. It raises the question of whether the Machine was evolving further, if the lines between her and Root were getting blurred. Could she have come to actually identify as Root with time (they did raise the question of her choosing a name for herself, in addition to picking a voice), and did her new version complete that evolutionary step? And this is unrelated and kind of mean but fuck it, I am delighted that Root!Machine was all over the Reese/Finch goodbyes and sacrifice. Take that, woman-hating slash shippers :D

Shaw, oh god I love her so much. After everything she's been through I'm not sure that death wouldn't have been a kinder ending for her, but taking over the Numbers business will give her a purpose. I loved the message from Root, obviously. Pulling off a "stoic character cries a single tear" scene isn't easy, but I think Sarah Shahi got it just right. Also loved that she got her revenge on Blackwell (whose character really didn't amount to much in the end) and the subversion of the classic "Your friends wouldn't want you to kill me" speech.
I'm glad Shaw was the one who got to close out the show (along with a version of Root) with that parallel to John looking at that camera in the pilot; I knew about the Finch/Grace reunion and I was terrified they'd get the final shot, that would've been awful. Although even so, I have to say again regarding those final moments, drawing a direct parallel between the tragic queers and the happy heteros was so not a good idea, holy shit. The thing is, I'm pretty sure that the showrunners genuinely consider this to be a happy ending of sorts for Root and Shaw. I guess this all depends on how much of Root you believe is left in the Machine, and whether you believe that a person simulated by an AI can be equal to the real thing. Shaw did seem willing to take whatever she could get. I was a bit surprised that she was so quick to accept the Machine using Root's voice and calling her "sweetie". That shot of her gently stroking the Machine's cables while saying goodbye was both heartbreaking and mildly WTF. It makes me wonder if maybe the narrative purpose of messing with Shaw's sense of reality was so that Root could give her that "everything is a simulation" speech to ease her into the idea of accepting Root existing in other forms. Nolan is adamant that their relationship goes on, but we didn't have enough time to see that translate onscreen. Even if this new Machine completely identifies as Root instead of referring to her in the third person, it still leaves the fundamental issue of the Machine not having a body. That's what headcanons and fanfic are for, I guess.

Finally, Harold. I'm just baffled by some of his choices in the finale. I know he didn't have the Machine anymore to check on Shaw and Fusco, but they worked for him for years. Even if their Machine-encrypted phones stopped working, surely he could've left a message for them at the precinct? He just skipped town like he was finally free of a burden. That's cold. It made it seem like he didn't care about anyone but John, and we know that's not the case. That was really weird.
In fact, I thought that Finch was portrayed in an increasingly unsympathetic way throughout this season. His unwillingness to break the set of rules he made up for himself (and everyone around him) has been irritating me since season 3, but back then it made sense. His paranoia was justified. Since the rise of Samaritan, though, his viewpoint started making less sense and his rehashing of the same arguments with Root (who is definitely this universe's Cassandra) made it harder to understand him. Even his breaking point, his monologue in 5x10--as amazing as it was--was about him admitting that he believed a solution would somehow present itself if they could survive long enough. He was willing to pay the price for his mistakes, but other people sacrificed themselves for him instead. And the odd thing is that all of his mistakes were never framed as something bad. When Carter started making morally grey choices, it was shown as such. But it felt like the narrative kept excusing Finch for everything, at least that's how I saw it.

I had a clear opinion about the general tone of this ending, but I've seen people comment that it was as happy as it could be under the circumstances. I guess it's another thing about this season that people will have wildly different views about. My personal view is that it fit into the Esoteric Happy Ending trope. The narrative seems to tell us that the characters' fate is satisfying and everyone is all smiles, but I see it as bittersweet at best. I'd even call it depressing, honestly. The survivors all lost people they cared about, and the one who gets the closest thing to a happy ending is the one who deserved it the least. But even my opinion fluctuates, so depending on what meta I read and what headcanons fandom comes up with I'll probably change my mind a few times. In fact, by the time I finished typing this paragraph I had a different opinion already, so...

And Finch has finally decided to stop punishing himself for ruining the world (by creating the Machine) and to let go of his relentless crusade.

Thanks for the different perspective about Harold. It's a much nicer way to see his character. You could say that after feeling the weight of his crimes for decades, and spending years physically and psychologically torturing himself as punishment, he finally got some peace of mind. My problem with this is that I don't think he earned his happy ending through his own actions; other people sacrificed themselves for him so he could have a chance at happiness. This interpretation makes the ending a lot more bitter than sweet, so I hope I can change my mind about this eventually.

I know many guest stars and potential subplots (Control and Brooks, Zoe Morgan, Root's nerd squad from season 3...) had to be dropped due to time constraints and actor availability, but there are three things from this season that I can't find an answer for:
- The Russian missiles the Machine sent Root to... retrieve? investigate? destroy? and weren't brought up again
- Fusco also got in trouble with his captain for being an associate of the Man in the Suit. Could he really just go back to work as if nothing happened?
- Whatever happened to the baby ASIs in the Faraday cage?

Aw, I killed the discussion. Darn it.

Oh well. I've read a lot of meta since the finale aired, about stuff like human/AI fusion, the possibility of human/AI romantic bonds, or the implications of the Machine more or less merging with someone with sometimes questionable morals and the negociations with Shaw that will ensue. If anyone feels like discussing this, I'll be around. In any case, thanks for the discussions.

Nah, you didn't kill it xD I just agree with a lot of things, but at the same time, things are what they are. Still slightly pissy that Harold got his happy ending, but yeah.

Most of what you've said though I think boils down to them having to cram so much in 13 episodes.

I don't read meta, mostly because I won't stop and I don't need to go down the rabbit hole at this point xD I'm also a bit sad that my favorite authors haven't written any new fics, which I'm guessing is because they gave up or something.

Still slightly pissy that Harold got his happy ending, but yeah.

I'm right there with you! This season really wasn't kind to him. He was always paranoid and stubborn, and a hypocrite, but his flaws used to be pointed out and the narrative around his inaction used to be more nuanced. Now I just want to shake my fist at him.

I was worried that fanfic authors would all ragequit the fandom, but many of them seem to have been hit by a fire of inspiration lit by canon-induced anger instead and have produced a ton of fix-it fics. Giving canon the finger is what fandom does best, after all. Others are onboard with canon and have been exploring its implications. I try to work with the ending we got and this story explores one possibility of how Shaw's partnership with the Machine would go. Depending on how you feel about the Machine-as-Root you'll either find it bittersweet but good, or really fucking depressing.

Other than that, for fanworks I go with the side headcanon that Root somehow survived, I don't care how, because only reading stories where she's dead and Shaw is (physically) alone isn't really a pleasant way to spend the time. Also, AU fics. This fandom has some really great ones.
But as you said, a few great authors haven't been active for a while. I think it's more because of lack of time rather than losing interest (I may have stalked a few of their tumblrs), so you never know. The unfinished stories make me sad in the meantime, though. That food truck AU was as promising as it was ridiculous.

Food truck AU? Haven't seen that one. I'm waiting for the Harry Potter AU to continue xD (hic ibi dracones) Any other recommendations? From whenever, not only recent ones. I've uploaded my downloaded ones so if you want you can skim for titles that you haven't read.

The thing with Harold is, if it was more spread out, I could maybe accept it, which could also lead to Root not dying in that manner. We really don't know what would've happened if it wasn't cancelled and they had some more time to contemplate the script.

I am in the camp that Root is more or less the Machine, considering how they played it out after her death. I thought it was gonna be only her voice, but she got her mannerisms and everything so it's more of a rebirth than anything. Ascension perhaps? Also, android body. It's sci-fi as it is xD

I am in the camp that Root is more or less the Machine, considering how they played it out after her death. I thought it was gonna be only her voice, but she got her mannerisms and everything so it's more of a rebirth than anything. Ascension perhaps?

I'm right there with you. The way I see it Root IS the Machine now. Samaritan tried to become an AI-overlord who would "fix" humanity because he considered himself better than humanity. Meanwhile, the Machine tried to be human. And when Control tortured Root, they actually talked about transcendence. At that point Control was mocking Root with that. But in that context, let’s not forget the whole “Analogue Interface”-period for the Machine. When Root was in the asylum, she talked with the Machine and discussed things with Her. But more importantly, remember that episode with the janitor who was completely Zen and Root had to save him? That was the Machine making a point to Root and convincing her to change her ways. So, in a way the Root of season 01 had disappeared a long time ago by the time Root “became” the Machine. The way Samaritan was grooming the boy to be his human face, the Machine was grooming Root.

And the little discrepancy between Root’s real personality and the Machine is Finch. The series actually talked about how the Machine imprinted on Finch like a chicken. Also, Finch explains at one point how making the Machine care about people is what made it work in the first place. So, if you want to be cynical the Machine-Root isn’t the real Root but “Root” has technically died at the end of season 02 anyway. The Root after that is already strongly influenced by the Machine (That’s why she didn’t jump ship and joined Team Samaritan as soon as Decima and Greer appeared). The discrepancy in the percentage is what used to make Root do evil stuff.

I’ve started rewatching the series (mostly because currently I’m only watching Preacher and Outcast) and I’ve finished the end of season 03 today. One thing that I have to say first is that the fifth season makes so much more sense in that context. Of course, I still think the 5th season felt very rushed but after seeing the first three seasons a lot of what happens there makes a lot more sense (or is less surprising and more a continuation of a little moment from before).

But back to Root and Shaw: I actually think that Shaw is someone who would be fine with having an AI as a girlfriend. One of those character-moments of Shaw’s past is the death of her father in a car-accident and how little reaction she showed to that. Then there’s this scene about why she was fired as a doctor (she tried her best to save a patient, failed but then went to their relatives and gave them the bad news… while eating a protein-bar because she was hungry). Then there was the episode with the little girl who said at the end that it isn’t like Shaw doesn’t feel anything but that her emotions are just very hard to hear for her. Also, there was this moment where Reese and her talked about their lovelife and Shaw said something along the lines of “a one-night-stand here and there but I don’t do relationships” (but at the end of the episode Carter goes off to see her son, Zoe goes with Reese and Shaw just takes Bear with her… I don’t know, but what if she lied and she is actually closer to being asexual as a rule and one-night-stands as an exception – with Root being the exception). And the way she interacted with Root, I don’t think that physical closeness was high on her priority-list. I think, Root would have a much bigger problem with Shaw just being a voice in her head. Because she’s a total romantic.

Also, I wonder: Does anybody know when the writers decided that Root and Shaw liked each other in a romantic way? In the last third of the third season Root definitely has become flirtatious (just from that last episode where Root and Shaw install the “hacked Samaritan-servers” and they had to put these transponders under their skin… Shaw is complaining “I can’t wait to get this thing out…” and Root is responding smiling: “I’ll do yours if you do mine.”). Before that, though, it actually seems like the Machine is the one who pairs them up. But while there’s nothing romantic going on between them, Shaw is the only one who’s at one point clamoring for Root to be freed (remember that time Root had to sit in the library because Finch didn’t trust her…?) so that she could help them. And there’s the weird parallel between Root and Shaw that both get in these torture-situations (first Root-Shaw, then Root-Control) where they both start out saying that they actually like the situation as if torture were a mere challenge to them. Of course, there’s a reason why people created RootxShaw-fanfic long before the series made it canon but I wonder if the creators of the show had that in mind when they wrote stuff like that.

In addition to that, the Reese-Carter-“love” was much more acceptable the second time around. There was actually “some” buildup. Reese constantly checked up on Carter making sure that she’s okay and when Reese and Shaw talk about their lovelife, Reese hesitates before declaring that Carter is just a co-worker. But I loved how Carter grew as a character in that third season. Instead of making her a sidekick to Reese/Finch she ended up being the hero of her own story. There are way too few series out there that allow secondary female characters to be that.

telamon

Food truck AU? Haven't seen that one. I'm waiting for the Harry Potter AU to continue xD (hic ibi dracones) Any other recommendations? From whenever, not only recent ones. I've uploaded my downloaded ones so if you want you can skim for titles that you haven't read.

Food truck AU. Only one chapter unfortunately, but seriously it'd be a shame to miss out on it even if it's unfinished.
Since you mentioned the Hic Ibi Dracones series, if you ever feel like going down that rabbit hole again the author writes some great meta, especially about the Machine and Root, on her Tumblr. It isn't really tagged though, best I could find is her ask tag.

I went through your list and there are a number of stories I either haven't read or don't remember... I was due for some re-reading anyway :p Here are a few more recs, hope you'll find a couple good ones you haven't read yet!
To be a dagger is another Hogwarts AU I really like. Spells of Interest is pretty good too, but the first part is very light on Root/Shaw. Five Times the Machine Wooed Sam Shaw is an early take on a Root/Shaw/Machine poly relationship.
For fluff or humor that isn't wildly OOC, which is what I need at the moment: Cohabitare, Personal Space Invader (AU), The Proposal (or how to take a ridiculous idea and make it work), Press Start to Continue.
Unfinished stories I like include the Girls Just Wanna Have Fun series (childhood friends/serial killer AU, very dark humor), the Function series and we are weapons of choice (post-4x11 AU, will probably be finished but is updated slowly because of the amount of research it takes).

I am in the camp that Root is more or less the Machine, considering how they played it out after her death. I thought it was gonna be only her voice, but she got her mannerisms and everything so it's more of a rebirth than anything. Ascension perhaps? Also, android body. It's sci-fi as it is xD

Knightingale

But back to Root and Shaw: I actually think that Shaw is someone who would be fine with having an AI as a girlfriend.

And there's the possibility that the Machine reborn at the end of the show will be more of a Root/Machine hybrid. It seemed to me that she was acting more and more human (and like Root) right before her previous version died. If the story continued in some way, I could see it going in a direction similar to a less disturbing version of the Black Mirror episode (the one with Hayley Atwell, they're all standalone) where a woman is provided with an AI-simulated version of her dead boyfriend--first his voice, then an artificial body. POI made pretty big leaps on the sci-fi scale in the last season, so it wouldn't even be that much of a stretch. Except in this case it could work out instead of coming across as horrifying. Shaw and Root!Machine will probably have a series of conversations about their relationship; I could see them deciding together how to handle the physical aspect. I keep changing my mind about how important it would be to Shaw, people have made good arguments for both sides of the issue, but they did make a point this season to show how strong Root and Shaw's feelings were even when they were apart. One of their biggest moments was the 4AF scene in 5x07, and there was an ocean between them.

Also, I wonder: Does anybody know when the writers decided that Root and Shaw liked each other in a romantic way?

They haven't said exactly, but likely early on. We've learned recently (in a featurette called "Revelations of POI" that is on iTunes and will be on the Blu-Ray) that their first scene was always meant to have sexual overtones. At that time they didn't even know how long Root would be around, she was just meant to be a classic evil psycho lesbian. But we've also known for a while that everyone on set was blown away by the Acker/Shahi chemistry when they actually filmed that scene. I think it was originally meant to be your typical cheap titillation with no follow-up, but when they decided to keep both characters and give them bigger roles going into season 3, they chose to give their relationship a romantic angle. It was implied, both in the show and in interviews, that they had sex during their first mission together in 3x06 (it's never confirmed in canon though, so you can stick to your timeline of their relationship if you think it was too early for them to get involved). I think they were always meant to have something going on, although IMO before Shahi's pregnancy they intended for them to be more of a casual relationship like John and Zoe instead of the life-changing, world-saving love story we ultimately got.

Before that, though, it actually seems like the Machine is the one who pairs them up.

I'm a really big fan of the Shipper!Machine theory. Realistically I know she needed someone to vouch for Root so that Finch would give her a chance, and Shaw was the best candidate because she doesn't hold grudges and was the newest addition to the team, but I really like the idea that The Machine played matchmaker with Root and Shaw the same way she did with Harold and Grace.

Thanks for the recs :] Will check them out soon, right now I'm on a bit of an Overwatch binge of Pharmercy and Widowtracer.

Anyway.

Can't add much to what you guys have already said xD Agree with a lot of the stuff, and I'll have to find time to re-watch it again (and not only the episodes that are my favorites, cause I watch them every few weeks or so).

As far as I remember from a few Comic-con-esque youtube videos with the cast and director/writer the scene wasn't supposed to be sexual, but how it was played and the chemistry is why they took it in that direction. Could've been from their first scene that they decided to write them like they have.

I do think Gen got it right with how Shaw's feelings are muted/easily mutable, and that's why she 'doesn't do relationships' (cause she can't make herself care for someone romantically), but 9 months being tortured and having simulations of Root, the button for the volume+ on her feelings towards her would be pressed regardless of how she is I think xD You can only take so much thinking about a person after all.

Found the video again. I really recommend watching it, it gives more insight into the creative team's view of the Root/Shaw dynamic than the snippets we've gotten in interviews over the years. What I got from it is that some people knew from the beginning where the relationship would go, and others didn't. That might explain the conflicting answers from cast and crew and the discrepancy between episodes we've seen sometimes; for example, 4x07 was a shipping-fest because the writer was a huge Root/Shaw fan and he inserted his theory that they'd been hooking up for months, while in 4x11 it seemed like it was the first time they'd kissed (Denise Thé wrote that episode and I don't know what she had been told at that point, but in the video she explains that for a while she had no idea they were going there).

I do think Gen got it right with how Shaw's feelings are muted/easily mutable, and that's why she 'doesn't do relationships' (cause she can't make herself care for someone romantically), but 9 months being tortured and having simulations of Root, the button for the volume+ on her feelings towards her would be pressed regardless of how she is I think xD You can only take so much thinking about a person after all.

During the hiatus everyone wondered how Shaw and Root would act once they were reunited, if one of them would try to keep her distance or if they would immediately jump each other. In the end they just dropped all pretense that whatever was going on between them could stay casual. I expected them to be pretty much the same as before with the occasional subtle acknowledgement of feelings, so I was surprised to see in the glimpses we got that they were just so... warm with each other. I think this season changed many headcanons about their relationship. And it was a pleasant (if amusing) surprise to learn in the simulation episode that Shaw was actually fond of Root's ridiculous flirting.

During the hiatus everyone wondered how Shaw and Root would act once they were reunited, if one of them would try to keep her distance or if they would immediately jump each other. In the end they just dropped all pretense that whatever was going on between them could stay casual. I expected them to be pretty much the same as before with the occasional subtle acknowledgement of feelings, so I was surprised to see in the glimpses we got that they were just so... warm with each other. I think this season changed many headcanons about their relationship. And it was a pleasant (if amusing) surprise to learn in the simulation episode that Shaw was actually fond of Root's ridiculous flirting.

Well, I imagine, they would go back to the status quo if Shaw wasn't gone for so long and she wasn't subjected to all those simulations, but was in a coma or something. 6741 simulation as well, I imagine it got old 5000 simulations ago for subtlety xD

I also like how they changed their romantic dynamic, not that it wasn't something different to see Root accepting whatever Shaw would give her in a fanfic, but in the end, it's kind of all the same (and yes, I know the typical couples are the same thing over and over, but when something is new and generally not expectant of, when you get too much of it, it loses its charm). Again, I doubt they would be able to go there without people screaming OOC, if the time she was missing didn't happen. The only sad thing about it is that we didn't get to see them together that much (and of course Root dying, but I think that's a given).

I expected them to be pretty much the same as before with the occasional subtle acknowledgement of feelings, so I was surprised to see in the glimpses we got that they were just so... warm with each other.

Yeah, I expected that as well, although I prefer character-developments over stale reiterations of the past. Like a "Oh, Shaw is traumatized... but after this funky little adventure she's good ol' Shaw again!"-storyline for example. That would've been terrible!

At least this was my takeaway, but Shaw's and Root's time apart confronted them with their love for each other. Shaw made Root her #1 reason to keep on fighting in the simulations and Root changed her tune from "Well, I just trust the Machine to know what's right." to "Sure, the Machine's great... but I want to save Sameen!". This doesn't mean 5th season writing was great in that regard but that's why we got this moment of Shaw saying "I would rather kill myself than endanger you, Root." and Root responding: "If I can't be with you, I might as well kill myself.". Now that I'm writing this, I'm thinking... Doesn't this kinda sound like Romeo & Juliet? It became an over-the-top romance in the 5th season that way, didn't it?

I also like how they changed their romantic dynamic, not that it wasn't something different to see Root accepting whatever Shaw would give her in a fanfic, but in the end, it's kind of all the same (and yes, I know the typical couples are the same thing over and over, but when something is new and generally not expectant of, when you get too much of it, it loses its charm).

There have been discussions about what exactly in the simulation was amplified because we were inside Shaw's mind, and what she would have actually said or done, they made for interesting reads. Before that episode like 85% of the fandom would've sworn up and down that Root and Shaw never shared a bed and Shaw hated cuddling and pillow talk, but now? It's probably one of those cases where you can pick and choose what you like as canon.

Now that I'm writing this, I'm thinking... Doesn't this kinda sound like Romeo & Juliet? It became an over-the-top romance in the 5th season that way, didn't it?

You're right! Root has always been way over-the-top about everything she does, but this season Shaw gave her a run for her money. And I thought it still made sense for both characters, after everything they've been through. I still don't know what Root's priorities were between Shaw and the Machine. She kind of went back and forth, like when she had a crisis of faith after the Machine told her to stop her search only to come back two episodes later. Behind the scenes, they probably felt they had to downplay Root's search for a while because they had no idea when Shahi would come back. In any case, it was interesting to see a prophet-type character get into arguments with her god and doubt Her word.

Trying to explain to someone unfamiliar with POI why Root and Shaw are great together would probably lead to a blank stare or a "what the fuck, that's disturbing". And their dynamic is so unconventional that it would have been really easy to screw it up. Instead we got these two really messed up people who respect and admire each other and once they establish a partnership, Root always respects Shaw's boundaries. She likes poking at them, but if Shaw had a problem with the occasional invasion she would've put a stop to it immediately. She's the only one who can handle Root and her (rather creepy and stalkerish at times) version of romance.

Which is why it always horrifies me when I see people shipping Root and Finch. I mean, I guess you can't choose the pairings that give you warm and fuzzy feelings, but Root traumatized Finch so badly the first few times they met there's no way he would ever have been able to move past that completely. Even in the end, he never fully trusted her. Het shippers weird me out sometimes.

Whatever happened with the theory that Root was brought up by an alcoholic parent? What do you guys think about that? Considering the first time Root kidnapped Finch, some people said how she placated him after she subdued the guy who was beating on her was akin to a person who grew up with an alcoholic parent, and how people described her when she was young 'weird and alone' or something like that.

Which is why it always horrifies me when I see people shipping Root and Finch. I mean, I guess you can't choose the pairings that give you warm and fuzzy feelings, but Root traumatized Finch so badly the first few times they met there's no way he would ever have been able to move past that completely. Even in the end, he never fully trusted her. Het shippers weird me out sometimes.

They must be thinking the same of us xD

But yeah, I really can't see Root and Shaw being with anyone besides each other for a lengthy relationship. Shaw is the one-night stand type and maybe the occasional call to someone who she's had really good sex with, but Root wore her down xD

Root has always been way over-the-top about everything she does, but this season Shaw gave her a run for her money. And I thought it still made sense for both characters, after everything they've been through. I still don't know what Root's priorities were between Shaw and the Machine.

I would say it started in Season 03 where they really doubled down on this peculiar relationship. Root as the Analogue Interface would say seemingly random stuff all the time and everybody was weirded out by her "precog"-abilities while Finch feared the potential danger of someone like Root running around with that power. But Shaw accepted it. More than that, though, Shaw started getting very protective in regards to Root. There are these moments in the third season where Root would just blindly follow the Machine's directions, get in danger and the only reason she survived is because Shaw went out of her way to protect her (the Season 03 finale is a big example where Shaw actually abandons the Finch-rescue-party in order to help Root).

Also, the way Shaw acts and talks kinda makes her as much a romantic as Root. She's very straightforward in her actions but never direct in what she says. All that snark distracts from her muted, true emotions. For example, there was this moment in season 03 where someone was weirded out by Root's commands and Shaw said something like "She does that all the time and she's always right - which is as annoying as it sounds.". On the surface, Shaw is complaining about it but in comparison to the rest of Team Machine Reese would doubt her, Finch would worry about doing the Machine's bidding and Fusco would simply be confused. But despite all the snark, Shaw actually trusts Root early on. But she never says it directly.

Now if we think of Root as this big romantic and the way she clinged to Hanna (who seemed to be her only friend when she was a kid), someone like Shaw must seem like a godsend to her. Here's a person who doesn't judge her, doesn't want anything from her and still goes out of her way to protect her. Also, the diminutive way Shaw shows that she cares about Root is cute as well, I guess. There was this one moment where Root got shot, got her wound treated and Shaw is in the same room later on. Shaw goes over to her suddenly, checks the bandages and just says something like "Keep it dry for 72 hours." and Root replies: "I love it when you play doctor."

I mean, in a way it's a better version of a tsundere-dynamic. Usually the tsundere's inability to communicate her feelings is played up for laughs and whatever douche creates those feelings is completely oblivious. What you get in animes often is a girl trying to hide her feelings and some bland douchebag complains about it, not questioning it at all. But here you have an actual rapport: Shaw isn't showing her true feelings directly but Root is aware of them and constantly teases her about that.

Which is why it always horrifies me when I see people shipping Root and Finch.

Although I do like their rapport when they talk about The Machine. I wouldn't call it romantic. Besides, didn't Finch check Root into the asylum as her "uncle"...? And the series has done a ton to establish Grace and Finch as a "true-love-pairing".

But of course, you can change that in Fanfiction. As long as there's good chemistry between the characters on-screen, some romantic version of it isn't that far-fetched. Like Hibike Euphonium, is it really still "shipping" and "fan-fiction" when there isn't a convincing alternative interpretation of those Reina-Kumiko-scenes? I consider fan-fiction something that exists outside the canon, like Korrasami during the first two seasons. Fans make the case for an alternative version. It’s fine.

Adding to lingering sexual tension between characters on-screen is different, though. Especially when it comes to homosexuality! The line between friendship and romance becomes much more important, once homosexuality is normalized culturally. All the action-hero-friendships between dudes that seem overly gay in subtext become simply gay (like Top Gun for example… there’s certainly more chemistry between Vil Kalmer and Tom Cruise than between Tom Cruise and Kelly McGillis) or all those anime-girlfriends that seem a little bit too intimate for a normal school-friendship.

Whatever happened with the theory that Root was brought up by an alcoholic parent? What do you guys think about that? Considering the first time Root kidnapped Finch, some people said how she placated him after she subdued the guy who was beating on her was akin to a person who grew up with an alcoholic parent, and how people described her when she was young 'weird and alone' or something like that.

Yeah, I’ve watched that episode in the first season where Root’s past was introduced and… well, it was a gimmick of that episode that Team Machine thought they were pursuing a lead on the true identity of Root – but as it turns out they were investigating Root’s best friend instead. So there’s a ton of storytelling-bullshit in there where Hanna’s past gets explained in a way where you might think it may be Root. Of course, the dorky friend of Hanna who is the actual Root is only a sideshow during the exposition-parts of that episode (because plottwist…!).

But it’s a good theory, though. The whole “humans are bad code”-idea kinda indicates that she hasn’t met a lot of nice people in her life until then.

But it’s a good theory, though. The whole “humans are bad code”-idea kinda indicates that she hasn’t met a lot of nice people in her life until then.

True it was a gimmick, but from a psychologists point of view, the way she tried to calm/appease Finch was text book 'child raised by an alcoholic', that's what I meant, and the show has been pretty consistent with their characterization of 'deviations from the normal' so to speak. Like with Shaw. They didn't make her all clingy and sappy like probably a lot of writers would've done, but stuck to her diagnosis. I forget if Root was diagnosed in the asylum, but crazy fits her perfectly, and she's adorable like that xD

Like with Shaw. They didn't make her all clingy and sappy like probably a lot of writers would've done, but stuck to her diagnosis.

Yeah, another reason why the ShawxRoot-relationship works is that the series gives them room to just be flirty/nice to each other. Too often romance gets turned into a plot-driven thing where it's a tug-of-war between love and hate. In an effort to turn romance into an emotional rollercoaster you get the high points and low points of a relationship. Animes even turn the confession of love into the endpoint of the romance-plot and so figuring out who the protagonist is in love with is half the battle (and often it IS a battle)! Both approaches are all about creating drama.

What you often don't get is just moments that confirm why the two lovers are right for each other. The plot didn't push Root and Shaw to be together. That development emerged from character-development - and it never was an issue story-wise (until season 04/05). Their romance was just a collection of little moments that showed their affection for each other. It was all about their characters. That's what made it compelling.

Of course, there's a good reason why Shaw disappeared for a while after sacrificing herself. But ignoring that external influence, I would argue that this lack of dramatization prior to that is exactly what gave the RootxShaw-relationship the narrative room to make the case for why their relationship makes sense. Those moments that are about nothing but a romantic couple interacting are much better as a sub-plot than having a dramatic episode where one character has to save his/her love-interest from a serial-killer, for example, in order to talk about her love for the other character. If you need drama to prove the existence of romance, then it isn't a well-written romance.

last edited at Jul 19, 2016 3:10PM

For people who have some knowledge of Japanese (or who know the basics and use Rikaichan) and some money to spare, an artist named fugi is putting out an 18+ Root/Shaw doujinshi. Reservations are open until July 31. Details on this page. There are a few POI doujins out there, but last time I went looking almost all of them were Reese/Finch porn with the occasional Finch/Ingram thrown in. This is a nice change.

Whatever happened with the theory that Root was brought up by an alcoholic parent? What do you guys think about that? Considering the first time Root kidnapped Finch, some people said how she placated him after she subdued the guy who was beating on her was akin to a person who grew up with an alcoholic parent, and how people described her when she was young 'weird and alone' or something like that.

If I remember correctly, the only thing we know about Root's family is that she lived with her mother who was "not well". It could mean she was an alcoholic and/or abusive, but Root also seemed to speak of her fondly when she told Finch that her mom told her to follow her talents. It could be that she was chronically ill? Root insisted that she hadn't had any childhood trauma that made her who she was... I'm not sure.

They must be thinking the same of us xD

Oh, they are :p At least we're not bigots.

But yeah, I really can't see Root and Shaw being with anyone besides each other for a lengthy relationship. Shaw is the one-night stand type and maybe the occasional call to someone who she's had really good sex with, but Root wore her down xD

I'm a rather cynical person, but I can totally buy that they're each other's One, True Love or whatever cheesy term we want to call it. Because of who they are as people, we know it takes a lot for them to let someone in, so once that happens, they're never getting out. The show didn't give either of them an important ex, so it's easy to imagine that they didn't have any other significant romantic relationships (Shaw says as much about herself). I love reading soulmate AUs about these two, that's how convinced I am.

More than that, though, Shaw started getting very protective in regards to Root. There are these moments in the third season where Root would just blindly follow the Machine's directions, get in danger and the only reason she survived is because Shaw went out of her way to protect her (the Season 03 finale is a big example where Shaw actually abandons the Finch-rescue-party in order to help Root).

There's a theory I like--in season 3 after escaping from Control, Root calls Finch and tells him she's touched that Shaw came to look for her, but we didn't see that happen. Maybe she helped Root or cleared a route for her escape after she was done talking with Control. We see Root free herself, and the guards outside the cage unconscious on the floor, but we don't know how she pulled that off. So the possibility that Shaw swooped in, knocked the guards out and left before Root could thank her, would add another example of her protectiveness of Root.

I mean, in a way it's a better version of a tsundere-dynamic.

Yeah, Shaw has occasional tsundere moments without the "being an asshole to your love interest" part it usually entails. Also, you could say Root is kind of a yandere sometimes, in romantic and platonic ways. The most obvious example I can think of is the end of season 2.

Although I do like their rapport when they talk about The Machine. I wouldn't call it romantic. Besides, didn't Finch check Root into the asylum as her "uncle"...? And the series has done a ton to establish Grace and Finch as a "true-love-pairing".

Well, you know how people are! If a man and a woman look at each other once, you'll find tons of folks who will immediately pronounce them in love. When Root asked Finch to dance at the wedding I couldn't even enjoy how far they'd come because I had sirens blaring in my mind like "Oh no, people are going to think this is meant to be romantic." And sure enough... It's entirely in their heads, though. The show itself never suggested any sort of attraction or romantic feelings from either side (for them or Reese/Shaw or Root/Reese etc.).
That's actually another thing I really like about Root and Shaw! Most f/f couples find themselves stuck in a love triangle with a dude at some point, because apparently writers can't imagine writing female characters who don't need a man in their life. Many lesbian movies are about a woman coming out and leaving her husband, who is often portrayed as an asshole (side note, this is a big part of the reason why Saving Face is my favorite lesbian movie). It's really refreshing to see two women who are unapologetically into each other and, apart from two one-episode potential sexual partners for Shaw (one of whom she ditches for Root), never spare a look for anyone else.