At the end of the day, whether consciously or subconsciously our brains attach more to negative things than to positive.

Yes, think many studies suggest that's the case; though, I wouldn't say "negative" but "challenging," which can be taken negatively, positively or neutrally (subjectively). Challenging stories, people, events, characters, or plots require more mental work to resolve the challenge (to our morals, interests, worldview, literary senses etc) and people will generally demand/desire to resolve that gap differently, using various explanations. So, I wouldn't say it's just that drama sells. Plenty of dramatic works don't sell and drama is not a negative word (though sometimes here it seems it's become synonymous with "here we go again"). There's a few dramatic works that do become successful though and for a variety of reasons (and even those that do sell aren't equally successful). There's something unique about what each of them are doing writing wise and for their audience. Anyway I agree, the earlier story wasn't challenging in any real sense and thus had a more limited appeal or draw (which can be fine). That's part of why I'm really interested in what the anime does. The (western) anime community is not the same as the manga community or even the community on here. With the way MagiRevo has succeeded and also the Witch from Mercury, I'm interested in how some of these others end up. Based on "drama sells," I guess we predict "Yuri is My Job" to best them all if it gets enough episodes.

last edited at Mar 21, 2023 8:05AM

It’s kind of funny how in a larger perspective when people question at the whole point of the Shiho issue or existence altogether. When this whole forum is proving why at some point whether it’s executed well or not, there will be a “Shiho” of some sorts added to a story. In a matter of a few days, this forum lit up like New Years Eve, simply just because they want to argue about the good or bad points of a character and the events it follows as if it’s a trial.

I think most people here were arguing that shihos inclusion and handling reduces the stories quality, not popularity.

I am given to understand that any such notions of “quality” are actually just pretentious (because they presume to pass critical judgment on the author’s intentions), subjective opinions based on “feelings” and “preferences” about the character and are definitively refuted by the popularity of the series among its intended Japanese audience.

last edited at Mar 21, 2023 8:56AM

I am given to understand that any such notions of “quality” are actually just pretentious (because they presume to pass critical judgment on the author’s intentions), subjective opinions based on “feelings” and “preferences” about the character and are definitively refuted by the popularity of the series among its intended Japanese audience.

My word.

Aww, but I was having fun. Oh well.

Yeah but people get agitated and start making snarky comments so. I'm still somewhat replying though.

@ ManuTheBloodedge

This is what I meant when I said its just starting to get snarky and snippy. So yeah maybe next time!

last edited at Mar 21, 2023 3:31PM

I am given to understand that any such notions of “quality” are actually just pretentious (because they presume to pass critical judgment on the author’s intentions), subjective opinions based on “feelings” and “preferences” about the character and are definitively refuted by the popularity of the series among its intended Japanese audience.

My word.

Aww, but I was having fun. Oh well.

Yeah but people get agitated and start making snarky comments so. I'm still somewhat replying though.

@ ManuTheBloodedge

This is what I meant when I said its just starting to get snarky and snippy. So yeah maybe next time!

You've attempted to have it both ways regarding "subjectivity" in this discussion, and the snark is in response to your patent refusal to answer direct questions about the details of the story when people push back against your assertions that arguments about this series are entirely a function of "how much we can sympathize with Shiho" and that "[f]rom a literary perspective, the story is better off for having her in it."

When challenged to explain what "literary" is supposed to mean in this context (beyond the "subjective" implication "I like it better this way,") you've ignored the question in favor of deflecting the issue of quality into appeals to authorial intent and to your apparent expertise concerning the "intended audience."

It's axiomatic that no literary interpretation or critical judgment (even, or perhaps especially, the author's) is ever "objective" in a scientific sense, and that readings of texts always are preceded by an implicit "I would argue," but by hammering away in general terms at negative criticism of the story's structure and characterization as being "subjective" and a matter of "preference," without addressing the specifics of the critiques (concerning narrative focus, structural proportion, consistency of characterization and motivation, etc.), the discussion inevitably hits a dead end.

Other commenters have said, "The first part was boring, and I like the this a lot better--say what you want about Shiho, she sure makes the story more exciting and interesting." They didn't feel the need to to dress it up as a defense of the author's literary craftsmanship, however.

Y’all hating on Shino got something silly going on. She’s just a fucking teenagers, and y’all are acting like she fucking killed somebody. And to anyone saying “oh well none of the others act like her” because not everybody is the same fucking person. It’s just how opinions are different. You don’t have to like Shino, but making posts about fucking killing her is too far. And if you really hate the drama, just drop the manga, it’s not that hard. Again, you’re entitled to your opinion, but there’s a difference between acting like she should know everything and saying you think she should be different.
People don’t cope in the same ways, you people need to learn that.

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

last edited at Mar 22, 2023 5:21PM

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

the ”our” in my response refers to anyone who prefers solid writing instead of whatever you call the faulty narrative surrounding shiho as a character.

-from the salt monarch moglius

I love seeing how this discussion thread is still more dramatic and toxic than the story it's discussing, despite all the time that's passed by. People here really love/hate shiho huh

Fr

A thought.

All of the build up to the battle of the bands was under an assumption that “our team” needed to win in order to help Aki and Shiho work things out.

On the other hand, the author could throw a total curveball and have Shiho still WIN the battle… except only after she essentially lost it. They could even argue that she only “won” (performed as well as she did) because she finally came to terms with how she feels.

This could in turn be used as a launch pad for our main couple again, should the author want to go there.

That’s not quite what I expect and like I mentioned before I think the negativity towards this arc is silly, but it is something that I see as a possibility.

I completely agree. I feel that is Shino wins, we’ll have a chance to see our main couple again, but still have the possibility for Shino and Aki to at least come to terms and be friends again. It hurts to see two of my favorite characters pinned against each other, but alas, love isn’t easy.

I haven't read this one since that shiho girl appeared. I just enter from time to time when it gets an update to laugh at the comments lol.

Shit here is crazy

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

the ”our” in my response refers to anyone who prefers solid writing instead of whatever you call the faulty narrative surrounding shiho as a character.

-from the salt monarch moglius

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human characters, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations. Not yours, not mine, not anyone’s.

But that doesn’t make one’s writing “faulty” it makes it different.

I honestly feel that Shino may be the most well-written character of her style in any manga I’ve read. Though, I haven’t read every single manga.

Why do I think she’s the best written?

She shows flaws. Not comical flaws, not flaws that don’t affect her, but REAL flaws. Like anxiety, pressure, possibly even autism or bpd. Calling a character faulty just because they don’t live up to whatever you wanted in the first place isn’t gonna change anything. What do you expect? Eku to give you the pen and let you write?

This is a passion project. Eku WANTED to write this, and they did. If you don’t like it, then don’t read it. You’re only giving it more fame by continuing to complain.

last edited at Mar 23, 2023 9:34PM

What do you people even gain from sending death threats to a fictional character?

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human beings, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations.

Lol. No, actually these are fictional constructs simulating human behavior using narrative conventions.

It can be really important to know the difference.

What do you people even gain from sending death threats to a fictional character?

I get paid 100$ per post

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

the ”our” in my response refers to anyone who prefers solid writing instead of whatever you call the faulty narrative surrounding shiho as a character.

-from the salt monarch moglius

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human beings, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations. Not yours, not mine, not anyone’s.

But that doesn’t make one’s writing “faulty” it makes it different.

I honestly feel that Shino may be the most well-written character of her style in any manga I’ve read. Though, I haven’t read every single manga.

Why do I think she’s the best written?

She shows flaws. Not comical flaws, not flaws that don’t affect her, but REAL flaws. Like anxiety, pressure, possibly even autism or bpd. Calling a character faulty just because they don’t live up to whatever you wanted in the first place isn’t gonna change anything. What do you expect? Eku to give you the pen and let you write?

This is a passion project. Eku WANTED to write this, and they did. If you don’t like it, then don’t read it. You’re only giving it more fame by continuing to complain.

first of all,these are not human beings at all,these are in fact characters in a story written by a human being.

second of all,humans are flawed which is what makes us human,where upon story characters that are flawed makes them badly written characters.

third and last,i expect every author who picks up the pen to do so with conviction and confidence to portray their image and convey their passion through at the least solid writing and at best great writing.

end note.
the reality is that shiho is a badly written character whether you or anyone else wants to admit this or not is irrelevant to this fact of truth.this was never about feelings or emotions it was always centered around the proof of evidence found within the text of the story itself and how it reflects upon the overall quality of its narrative.

-from the salt monarch of the sodium kingdom moglius

Funny how the "salty"/ "toxic" people that hate shiho are just trying to discuss the structure of the story, nuance of the characters, craftsmanship of the author, etc. While the ones defending it are the ones that started with the snarky comments and straight up strawman
I guess looking critically at a Manga and enjoy talking about it is "toxic" behavior and people should just enjoy it as it is or zip it

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

the ”our” in my response refers to anyone who prefers solid writing instead of whatever you call the faulty narrative surrounding shiho as a character.

-from the salt monarch moglius

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human beings, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations. Not yours, not mine, not anyone’s.

But that doesn’t make one’s writing “faulty” it makes it different.

I honestly feel that Shino may be the most well-written character of her style in any manga I’ve read. Though, I haven’t read every single manga.

Why do I think she’s the best written?

She shows flaws. Not comical flaws, not flaws that don’t affect her, but REAL flaws. Like anxiety, pressure, possibly even autism or bpd. Calling a character faulty just because they don’t live up to whatever you wanted in the first place isn’t gonna change anything. What do you expect? Eku to give you the pen and let you write?

This is a passion project. Eku WANTED to write this, and they did. If you don’t like it, then don’t read it. You’re only giving it more fame by continuing to complain.

first of all,these are not human beings at all,these are in fact characters in a story written by a human being.

second of all,humans are flawed which is what makes us human,where upon story characters that are flawed makes them badly written characters.

third and last,i expect every author who picks up the pen to do so with conviction and confidence to portray their image and convey their passion through at the least solid writing and at best great writing.

end note.
the reality is that shiho is a badly written character whether you or anyone else wants to admit this or not is irrelevant to this fact of truth.this was never about feelings or emotions it was always centered around the proof of evidence found within the text of the story itself and how it reflects upon the overall quality of its narrative.

-from the salt monarch of the sodium kingdom moglius

Well, whether fictional humans or not, they’re still flawed.

When story characters are flawed that makes them badly written characters? I’d like you to elaborate on that, do you mean their personality, or how they’re written? /gen

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human beings, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations.

Lol. No, actually these are fictional constructs simulating human behavior using narrative conventions.

It can be really important to know the difference.

Right, right, I admit I worded that part wrong. I mean that even a character should be flawed, at least in personality. A perfect character would just be boring.

What do you people even gain from sending death threats to a fictional character?

I get paid 100$ per post

Damn, might as well go buy yourself a mansion.

Funny how the "salty"/ "toxic" people that hate shiho are just trying to discuss the structure of the story, nuance of the characters, craftsmanship of the author, etc. While the ones defending it are the ones that started with the snarky comments and straight up strawman
I guess looking critically at a Manga and enjoy talking about it is "toxic" behavior and people should just enjoy it as it is or zip it

I personally don’t care whether you like it or not, as a writer and reader it’s good to get both parts of the story. But there’s a border between being critical, and giving feedback, and just being rude. Not that you have, I in fact enjoy reading your posts and find it nice to see other opinions.

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

the ”our” in my response refers to anyone who prefers solid writing instead of whatever you call the faulty narrative surrounding shiho as a character.

-from the salt monarch moglius

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human beings, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations. Not yours, not mine, not anyone’s.

But that doesn’t make one’s writing “faulty” it makes it different.

I honestly feel that Shino may be the most well-written character of her style in any manga I’ve read. Though, I haven’t read every single manga.

Why do I think she’s the best written?

She shows flaws. Not comical flaws, not flaws that don’t affect her, but REAL flaws. Like anxiety, pressure, possibly even autism or bpd. Calling a character faulty just because they don’t live up to whatever you wanted in the first place isn’t gonna change anything. What do you expect? Eku to give you the pen and let you write?

This is a passion project. Eku WANTED to write this, and they did. If you don’t like it, then don’t read it. You’re only giving it more fame by continuing to complain.

first of all,these are not human beings at all,these are in fact characters in a story written by a human being.

second of all,humans are flawed which is what makes us human,where upon story characters that are flawed makes them badly written characters.

third and last,i expect every author who picks up the pen to do so with conviction and confidence to portray their image and convey their passion through at the least solid writing and at best great writing.

end note.
the reality is that shiho is a badly written character whether you or anyone else wants to admit this or not is irrelevant to this fact of truth.this was never about feelings or emotions it was always centered around the proof of evidence found within the text of the story itself and how it reflects upon the overall quality of its narrative.

-from the salt monarch of the sodium kingdom moglius

Well, whether fictional humans or not, they’re still flawed.

When story characters are flawed that makes them badly written characters? I’d like you to elaborate on that, do you mean their personality, or how they’re written? /gen

characters are fictional constructs written to simulate human behavior so a flawed character is by definition a fictional construct which fails to simulate said human behavior.

-from the salt monarch of the sodium kingdom moglius

Too many people are here overreacting over a fictional character. She’s not a mass murderer, lol.

she hasnt murdered a person but she certainly has murdered our expectations for the manga.

Who is this “our” because it certainly isn’t the non-salty part of the fandom.

the ”our” in my response refers to anyone who prefers solid writing instead of whatever you call the faulty narrative surrounding shiho as a character.

-from the salt monarch moglius

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human beings, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations. Not yours, not mine, not anyone’s.

But that doesn’t make one’s writing “faulty” it makes it different.

I honestly feel that Shino may be the most well-written character of her style in any manga I’ve read. Though, I haven’t read every single manga.

Why do I think she’s the best written?

She shows flaws. Not comical flaws, not flaws that don’t affect her, but REAL flaws. Like anxiety, pressure, possibly even autism or bpd. Calling a character faulty just because they don’t live up to whatever you wanted in the first place isn’t gonna change anything. What do you expect? Eku to give you the pen and let you write?

This is a passion project. Eku WANTED to write this, and they did. If you don’t like it, then don’t read it. You’re only giving it more fame by continuing to complain.

first of all,these are not human beings at all,these are in fact characters in a story written by a human being.

second of all,humans are flawed which is what makes us human,where upon story characters that are flawed makes them badly written characters.

third and last,i expect every author who picks up the pen to do so with conviction and confidence to portray their image and convey their passion through at the least solid writing and at best great writing.

end note.
the reality is that shiho is a badly written character whether you or anyone else wants to admit this or not is irrelevant to this fact of truth.this was never about feelings or emotions it was always centered around the proof of evidence found within the text of the story itself and how it reflects upon the overall quality of its narrative.

-from the salt monarch of the sodium kingdom moglius

Well, whether fictional humans or not, they’re still flawed.

When story characters are flawed that makes them badly written characters? I’d like you to elaborate on that, do you mean their personality, or how they’re written? /gen

characters are fictional constructs written to simulate human behavior so a flawed character is by definition a fictional construct which fails to simulate said human behavior.

-from the salt monarch of the sodium kingdom moglius

Human behavior is flawed, though. So if a flawed character is-well-flawed, then wouldn’t that make them not a failure? To be human is to be flawed. A human character, especially in a realistic setting, should demonstrate that.

Again, I can’t quite see if you mean writing or personality. Or both.

“Faulty”
Is it faulty to be a human being with emotions? Is it faulty to be scared? Is it faulty to be anxious?

These are human beings, they’re not ever gonna live up to everybody’s expectations.

Lol. No, actually these are fictional constructs simulating human behavior using narrative conventions.

It can be really important to know the difference.

Right, right, I admit I worded that part wrong. I mean that even a character should be flawed, at least in personality. A perfect character would just be boring.

Seriously, how many f***king times does it have to be said--most of the negative views of this story are not about hating human beings, imaginary or otherwise. They're criticizing the way this character has been used in this story. (The details of that critique have been analyzed at excruciating length in this forum thread.)

Sure, some commenters are so sick of Shiho's angsty bullshit dominating the story that they've expressed their exasperation by wishing that something bad would happen to the character--the way that when people on the internet say, "X should DIAF!" they're not literally homicidal arsonists.

Shiho having negative traits is not the issue--some of the best characters in manga have serious flaws. Shiho in isolation may even be considered "well-written" by people who enjoy watching (or who "relate to") her emotional shenanigans and who don't care what her disproportionate presence has done to the overall story. That's not everybody, however.