Forum › Maple Sugar discussion

joined Jan 30, 2013

It may also get you in jail.

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

My point of view in general on rarepairs is how well you can tie it back to the original source, and how well you execute it. So long as you show knowledge of the source, and the characters don't come off as forced, there's no reason to restrict yourself to the popular, "mainstream" ships.

If you just stuck with fanon, you wouldn't get stuff like Youmu x Reisen or Alice x Mystia in Touhou, or Azusa x Mio in K-ON as a few examples. It's not sacrilege, it's just a writer trying something new and maybe taking some creative risks.

41066419
joined Nov 11, 2010

You're doing a very bad job at proving me wrong then. See as how you can't even best me in the most basic knowledge about debate. You also just did something really dumb. You basically said "here's a textbook, go prove how canon relativity is". You're not giving information, you're just giving "book".

I don't think you understand how real debate works, and you're just trying to nitpick anything you can.
I gave you information, if you can't interpret that information it's your prerogative.

But they don't. No less then any other pair. But their moments are more defining. I guess you think you're smart then the thousands and thousands of other people who saw the NoeRei relationship and acknowledged it. You're just biased against childhood friends apparently.

Haha. To be honest, I do actually think I have better taste than anybody who ships NaoRei. But the shipping in Smile Precure is subjective in the first place, that's the actual point. Until you can specify logically and objectively why NaoRei's moments are 'more defining', and how that in turn makes other pairings illegitimate enough to be 'crack ships', you are full of shit.

Combo attacks and emotional moments together are not even close to the same thing. You're just proving that you're one of those people who can't tell the difference between any type of interaction and think that everything is "shipping moments". That's why the hug is "worth" more than the combo attack. And for the just to point it out. NeoRei has a combo attack and a lot of emotional moments.

As romantic subtext, they have just about the same value. "Oh man, I hugged someone close to me (a childhood friend, even!) when I thought someone died." So romantic, right? :P
The actual baseline for subtext to start having any legitimacy is when it's actually about how the characters feel towards each other. Reactive 'emotional moments' and incidental screentime together do not an real ship make.

last edited at Oct 16, 2014 8:39PM

Z%20ss
joined Oct 15, 2013

People take this crap too seriously.

To me, shipping in any way or form is idiotic. People love to convince themselves with their own perception by bending what they are actually seeing into something they want but will never be, and probably was never meant to be.

And so I antagonize myself, I am learning from you mutli-account user, who's only objective is to smear the vitriolic fecal matter that pours out of it's mouth all over anything it disapproves of. I now need to learn to get rid of logical thinking and we will practically be one in the same, just another one of your accounts.

last edited at Oct 16, 2014 9:02PM

Z%20ss
joined Oct 15, 2013

And so I antagonize myself, I am learning from you mutli-account user, who's only objective is to smear the vitriolic fecal matter that pours out of it's mouth all over anything it disapproves of. I now need to learn to get rid of logical thinking and we will practially be the same person, just another one of your accounts.

Oh look, more baseless samefagging. And the only person here who's gotten out of hand is Sol Falling with his/her/its mile long posts.

If you don't have anything constructive to add why do you even post? Do that little must be obvious if you have so much logic. You don't even try to prove something, you just come in throwing insults. Grow up.

bending what they are actually seeing into something they want but will never be

Then i guess I'm safe, because I'm not bending anything, and I also have video and examples on my side. Rather then just posting the whole show.

We are one.

We are not constructive, we lack logic.

We are one.

41066419
joined Nov 11, 2010

So rather than actually talk about how stupid it was to say that fanart is objective you talk about how you don't like the fact fujos are infact low tier. If you don't see anything wrong with shipping straight people in gay ships then there is something really wrong.

Fanart is a relatively objective measure of shipping popularity. The fact that more people ship Nissan Combi than Akane x Brian is an objective measure of which is the better ship, more objective than your complaints "It's not canon! /whine".

You can't claim all interaction are romantic in nature. You holding some stupid double standard where you think all AkaNao moments are romantic and none of the NaoRei ones are. The real point here being just because you want to take them as romantic doesn't mean they are. We know how she Akane acts when she's in love, and she's not going to act drastically different with someone else. It may be different, but not drastically.

Neither AkaNao nor NaoRei's 'moments' are romantic. AkaNao simply have better chemistry (subjective), that's why it's the better ship.

(Conversely, in the Cinderella episode, MiyuRei and YayoRei's moments actually might be.)

Yeah, it's just bastardizing the characters characters and all of their interpersonal relationships to the point where you treat them like hollow shells meant only to be warped to your shipping whims.
Nothing too bad.

^ This is the point where you've gotten too worked up about fiction, lol. Tons of anime actually are made as just trashy entertainment, what's wrong with being entertained?


There's a really big difference between what we did. I cited pages of a book while you cited the whole book. It's kind of like a four year old saying "I know the answer, but I'm not telling you~~~~".

lol. No, from the perspective of non-Japanese speakers who hadn't watched the series, what you actually did was cite the pages of a book in a language they couldn't read.

But the shipping in Smile Precure is subjective in the first place
Until you can specify logically and objectively why NaoRei's moments are 'more defining'
No it's not. And I did. I even gave examples you just keep saying they don't count. But you seem kind of bigoted.

In the by now frequently mentioned Cinderella episode, ep. 39, Miyuki and Yayoi reacted favourably to Reika dashingly dressed up as a Prince -- Miyuki on account of her favourite thing being fairytale fantasies, Yayoi on account of being just that gay (a fangirl for all things awesome). I'd argue that these two moments are far more romantically defining than anything you can bring up for NaoRei. That's subjectivity for you. (Or maybe objectivity? I'm quite sure most people would agree.)

You didn't really answer my point. Leaving aside how you're just trivializing the moment so you can try and pretend to be right, why have that scene with NaoRei if AkaNao have a much closer relationship and is more likely to happen?

Because Precure is primarily a kid's show and every moment doesn't have to be yuri subtext? lol. What the fuck are you even trying to say?

Good, that's why I gave a bunch of other examples.

Let's see... Reactive emotional moments? Check. Incidental screentime together? Check. Other examples? ...Nope, can't find even one.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

If you're so against bastardizing characters, why don't you go shit up the thread for every doujin where Nao and Reika actually have sex.

I think I'll cut things off with maybe one last post, at this point there's not much more to be meaningfully said.

Z%20ss
joined Oct 15, 2013

I don't know about the we part, but you sure lack logic. You are acting exactly like Nezchan. You don't try to argue, you just throw insults around. I'm startying to respect Sol Falling more and more. At least he tries to argue and support his claim.

So, Nezchan is part of us? Nice. We are growing, we are one.

Untitled%203
joined Feb 3, 2013

Oh boy, the day this guy/girl discovers the Touhou doujins, his/her head is going to explode.

By the way, do we have mods in this forum? i think it's about time to call one.

EDIT: Prove you wrong on what? Crack and canon pairings on a animated show?
If you don't like the quality of the art or the story in general, no one would have an issue with that. People will have a discussion over it.You shoul go see Lemonade's or Citrus' board for an example of that. There was also an interesting discussion due to an age gap doujin, but I do not remember the name of it.
You don't start a discussion on a doujin with a personal attack to the people who worked on a translation project.

Also, forgot to say it before, but dat Credit's page XD

last edited at Oct 16, 2014 10:41PM

41066419
joined Nov 11, 2010

Here's the promised last post.

We're not talking about it's popularity. We are talking about it's creditably in the show. Why do you keep shifting topics.

The question I was addressing with Jwalop was "Is Akane good for yuri". Answer: yes. By the will of thousands of yuri fans.

And by your own logic you are saying NaoRei is better then AkaNao. Just thought I'd let you know that.

NaoRei is more popular than AkaNao, that basically means more yuri fans will claim to like it. I'm gonna go on record and say that if anybody picked up Smile Precure for NaoRei instead of reading doujins though they probably wouldn't be very satisfied, though. IMO, they'd probably be slightly more satisfied if they were fans of AkaNao.

No, because you can just find it subbed yourself with simple searching. It's not the same as just handing someone a book.

If you could actually do that, why didn't you help us all out and post a link in the first place. Not that it actually matters, I too think a subbed video would speak for itself (that Nao and Reika are just friends).

You are far too hung up on your subjective reasoning. This has no place in what we are talking about. "dashingly dressed up as a Prince" So you think that all kids who did the play Romeo and Juliet are romantically attracted to each other? Because that's all that's happening in that scene.

The Smile girls weren't dressed up for a play, they were sucked into an actual fairytale. What Yayoi and Miyuki's reactions demonstrated was that it's likely that they genuinely find Reika attractive (sexually/romantically). Not that there was ever much reason to conclude otherwise, considering their established characters, but there's really nothing remotely equivalent for Nao (or incidentally, from Reika towards Nao).

Explicit heterosexual attraction. Not even implied yuri attraction. That's what I'm saying.

Regardless of her hetero attraction, Akane's relationship with Brian was so shallow as to be barely worth mentioning for shipping purposes. Meanwhile, out of all Smile's cast of characters, aside from maaaybe Miyuki, the character who's relationship with Akane was most highlighted was Nao. Nissan Combi is pretty much de facto the most popular Akane ship. You seem to be implying here that you don't think Akane x Nao is a legit ship, but it's probably the second largest ship in Smile's entire yuri fandom. Regardless of your feelings on NaoRei, I hope you aren't stupid enough to have gone to any AkaNao threads/gatherings of fandom and called them 'crack'.

That's because you won't admit anyone other than yourself is right. Those moments do have meaning, and many people see it. I'm not making it up. Why do you think NaoRei is popular.

I traced the genealogy of NaoRei's popularity in my first post in this thread. Here's a more explicit version though:
- Fanbase coming off a pretty yuri Precure season in Suite with HibiKana, in particular doujin artists
- Introduction of Smile with similar team structure to Yes 5!, in particular the blue and green being last to be introduced and childhood friends. People start shipping them before they even really turn up.
- Smile turns out to have much less opening subtext/fixed pairings than Suite, yuri fans basically working off of delusions and background material
- Doujin artists buy into NaoRei, start putting stuff out, including certain popular artists here in the western fandom
- We go half a season until any substantial/actually interesting subtext starts showing up, explicit subtext between characters still rather rare
- By that point NaoRei is too engrained
- NaoRei doesn't even really end up with any good subtext, we finish off the season with better subtext for other pairings and little real grounding for NaoRei at all.

The fact that Smile wasn't filled with hetshit like HaCha this season is what saved it for the yuri fanbase. However, the subtext itself, and the yuri fanbase's response to it, really went off the rails, and was pretty much built by the fanartists. The best thing NaoRei had going for it was that the animators put in a little Easter egg and tried to put them on screen together at 8:40 AM, Japan time, every episode. But apparently the writers didn't get the memo, because that was pretty much it, with their actual relationship hardly ever being highlighted by the story or dialogue. In the end, it's kinda like how people didn't realize that the best pairing from HeartCatch was Yuri x Momoka until years after the season was over -- getting caught up in weak possibilities for ships early on, and missing the overall picture of where substance actually showed up.

edit:

Because having sex with someone you have feelings for isn't wrong. How is them having sex a "bastardization"? Depending on the example though, I might agree. And I'm sure even you'll agree that het gang rape of the precures is a bastardization of their characters. Now you just need to see it applies to other things as well.

Het rape doujins are basically fantasies made by people utilizing the designs of the Precure characters. I'm sure you'll agree that, if you consider the creative intentions of the people behind Precure, yuri sex doujins amount to that as well. Call the doujin activities of various fandoms (which by nature are not leashed by the desires of 'official' creators) a bastardization if you want; ultimately, I'm happier that they do exist than not at all.


I can point out the wrong someone is doing without being worked up about it. I don't think you're mad right now, are you? You're trying to do the same thing I am. Correct someone. Only I have the benefit of being right.

You're basically passing undue negative judgement on lots of things that don't actually call for it -- even if you don't think you're worked up now I'd hate to live with that perspective. When it comes down to "have some interesting yuri while appreciating artistic freedom and the variety in humanity's modes of expression" versus "restrict myself to some strict definition of canon, when I'm ultimately just a fallible person working with subjective interpretations myself", I'd choose the former every time.

And there is a difference between -made to be trashy- and -making something else trashy-. If the characters start as bastards you can't bastardize them. But if they don't start a such, you can do it to them. The act of making something trashy that originally wasn't is what's wrong.

I think you're really putting too much stock in a children's show which can't afford to display explicit yuri, much less is guaranteed that the creators are always interested in even doing so (as the current season demonstrates). Smile manages to be a great show because it's endearingly silly and fun, but is only yuri friendly by largely a lack of any explicit sexuality at all. There are shows where yuri plays a central part in the themes and story of the characters, and there are shows which are conducive to yuri, but where it only pops up by coincidence occasionally on the side. As a yuri fan, I don't think there's anything wrong with taking the opportunity to enjoy the latter, but it's a fact that doing so naturally involves some degree of divergence from the creators' intentions.

last edited at Oct 17, 2014 1:34AM

41066419
joined Nov 11, 2010

^ I guess I was slow on my edit. My point was that making subtext explicit itself is a divergence from canon. If you're embracing any fan activity at all, particularly in a show with weak subtext like Precure, it's hypocrisy to preach about 'bastardizing the characters'.

007
joined Aug 1, 2013

you want plot? you want drama? read the forum

Untitled%203
joined Feb 3, 2013

you want plot? you want drama? read the forum

Plot is so bizzare it seems wa taken straight out of a Douman Saiman manga. People seem to try to scientifically prove that their pairing is the best.

EDIT: Actually, it's more like Yu-Gi-Oh, Beyblade etc.. where children's games (or pairings in children's animation, in this case) are serious business.

last edited at Oct 17, 2014 12:32AM

__mioda_ibuki_danganronpa_and_super_danganronpa_2_drawn_by_qosic__sample
Dynasty Scans
joined Oct 8, 2010

What the fuck is all this petty bickering. If any more of this continues this thread will get nuked.

41066419
joined Nov 11, 2010

e.g. If Nao and Reika love each other in terms of subtext it is a bastardization of their characters to say they would abandon that love and have sex with someone else. Because if they would abandon said feelings it would mean they are shallow and cheap.

There's the issue. There's no evidence of Nao or Reika being in romantic love.

(Also, it's not in fact a stretch to treat Akane's one-off attraction to Brian as something shallow and cheap.)

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

What the fuck is all this petty bickering. If any more of this continues this thread will get nuked.

And nothing of value would be lost.

Untitled%203
joined Feb 3, 2013

What the fuck is all this petty bickering. If any more of this continues this thread will get nuked.

You might want to nuke it now. There's more personal attacks than actual discussion.

Abe415bc-3706-4b66-a10e-07e744434b9e
joined Feb 3, 2013

Who cares about crackships? Let's enjoy the moment of two girl in love (for Sekigara-sensei).

Stardusttelepath8
joined Oct 15, 2014

Drama aside, I'm glad that those who enjoyed the actual doujin liked my amateur scanlation attempt. And yes, that image was too epic not to use for a credits page. even if the source isn't particularly /u/

Abe415bc-3706-4b66-a10e-07e744434b9e
joined Feb 3, 2013

Who cares about crackships? Let's enjoy the moment of two girl in love (for Sekigara-sensei).

Mod says to drop it. People still bring it back up. Good stuff.
You should care about more then it just being two girls.

You missed "two girls in love", and like I said, "Who cares?"
At least show our respects to the artist's work and the group scans.
You guys are always make a big fuss over a little thing. I hope mods won't drop this one. Please!

last edited at Oct 17, 2014 3:59PM

Z%20ss
joined Oct 15, 2013

Drama aside, I'm glad that those who enjoyed the actual doujin liked my amateur scanlation attempt. And yes, that image was too epic not to use for a credits page. even if the source isn't particularly /u/

it's a single user who screams a lot with multiple accounts. Ty for your work.

Z%20ss
joined Oct 15, 2013

Drama aside, I'm glad that those who enjoyed the actual doujin liked my amateur scanlation attempt. And yes, that image was too epic not to use for a credits page. even if the source isn't particularly /u/

it's a single user who screams a lot with multiple accounts. Ty for your work.

I know, right! It's impossible for more then one person in the world to disagree with you!
Just an idea. Assume for a second the word doesn't revolve around your assumptions. How would you prove the points said other party is making wrong. Surely you can do at least that little.

Not worth seriously attempting to discuss when no side will give. ;)

2015-01-21%2018.42.01
joined May 17, 2014

So about the actual doujin tho. A PreCure fan care to enlighten me: Who is the overall MC? I don't plan on ever actually watching it... or any other Magical Girl anime besides Madoka Magica And probably Nanoha eventually

41066419
joined Nov 11, 2010

Precure seasons are basically about teams of girls ranging in size from 2-6 (later seasons have pretty consistently settled into a range of 4-5). The "main-est" Cure every season generally is the Pink. In the case of Smile Precure/this doujin, that would be Miyuki.

Abe415bc-3706-4b66-a10e-07e744434b9e
joined Feb 3, 2013

I didn't miss that, it's not relevant or the point.
it should be two girls in love, not two girls forced to be in love through bad writing
And please try a little reading comprehension. The mod said to stop talking about the crack issue, that means to drop it, but you brought it back up after hours of people not talking about it.

Respect artists who don't respect the characters? No thanks.

Oh, really... Okay? Who cares? yawning

If don't like, don't read. It's not nice to attack for just a small doujin and the artist.
Who wants to respect you if you don't respect them?
And sorry for not being a native English speaker, so please bear with my writing and reading comprehension-so-whatever. grab popcorn

Don't quote my post. It's just my opinion.

last edited at Oct 17, 2014 9:22PM

2015-01-21%2018.42.01
joined May 17, 2014

Precure seasons are basically about teams of girls ranging in size from 2-6 (later seasons have pretty consistently settled into a range of 4-5). The "main-est" Cure every season generally is the Pink. In the case of Smile Precure/this doujin, that would be Miyuki.

So Miyuki is the MC, sorry tht just feels weird to me since I'm not actually into it, she's not too in doujinshi (by comparison), and I associate her pink drills with Teto, the "unoffical" Vocaloid. :p

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