Notice also that at first Sayaka is in the lead going up the stairs, but for some reason Touko intentionally moves ahead of her so as to be waiting when Sayaka gets there.

I loved this detail. It's really graphic about Touko's state of mind but I struggle to put the impression in words.

Speaking of little details, did anybody notice Touko getting uncomfortable when they talked about yatsuhashi? Looks like she's still got Yuu on the brain.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 2:08PM

This thread has been an excellent example of how the entire concept of “shipping,” which is pleasant enough as a parlor game or imaginative projection (or simply a re-labeling of the basic way readers connect to characters in relationship stories—who doesn’t ship Romeo and Juliet?) can become counterproductive to critical discourse and even toxic to the exchange of ideas.

Some “shipping wars” are the result of differing readings of a particular character or different readers’ preferences for a specific character type (or even gleefully perverse and contrarian, as in “I ship [Predatory playgirl domme from Story A X shy virtuous librarian in wheelchair from Story B]”). That’s perfectly understandable—after all, you like what you like.

In this case, however, the character of Sayaka in this series could literally have been designed to disprove the premise that predictions about the future plot are based on liking or disliking a particular character or pairing. She’s a great person without being artificially perfect; she and Touko get along splendidly, and (as the people around them explicitly say) they look great together. She has lot of integrity, discretion, and loyalty. It’s true (as she herself says) that she’s been a bit of a coward as she held back on expressing her feelings, but that only makes her intensely relatable—if every person here who at least once didn’t confess for fear of losing a precious friendship left the Dynasty forum, this place would be a ghost town. A story about Touko and Sayaka getting together could well be a great yuri story.

But no matter how clearly a given proposition is stated, it’s obvious that several posters in this thread have been unable or unwilling to perceive an argument or to understand disagreements in interpretation except through the lens of the other person’s “shipping” preferences. That hasn’t been the only problem—several elementary terms and concepts in literary/narrative analysis have been profoundly misunderstood or misused—but it’s (at least) extremely annoying to explain in detail how a reading of the text isn’t motivated by “shipping,” only to essentially be called a liar, or to see an clear explanation of the fundamentals of narrative form dismissed as if it’s about character preferences.

As a fan, I ship like anybody else, and I find, say, a mental image of Koyomi in domme gear standing over a lingerie-clad Akari quivering in anticipation to be pleasantly amusing (so sue me). But I’ve seen plenty of examples lately of people talking past each other in these threads because they assume that “shipping” is the default motivation for other people’s ideas, at which point what was once a fun, even whimsical, thought experiment has metastasized into a significant barrier to communication.

EDIT: Of course, none of this has anything to do with people who apparently don’t know what words mean—nothing to be done about that.

Seeing you make a new post gives me a feeling that should be bottled and sold as an anti-depressant.

Notice also that at first Sayaka is in the lead going up the stairs, but for some reason Touko intentionally moves ahead of her so as to be waiting when Sayaka gets there.

I loved this detail. It's really graphic about Touko's state of mind but I struggle to put the impression in words.

Speaking of little details, did anybody notice Touko getting uncomfortable when they talked about yatsuhashi? Looks like she's still got Yuu on the brain.

Good eye—I had completely forgotten about that little detail.

So, given the present state of their relationship, does Touko buy yatsuhashi for Yuu or not?

Since that was almost literally the last thing they talked about before the Confession Event, it would be kind of an artifact of their previous intimacy; I suspect Touko isn’t going to bring back a present for all the stuco kouhai. (It’s a little hard to tell from a quick Google search how expensive souvenir-level yatsuhashi would be in Kyoto.)

(Yikes—that just dredged up a memory of a fairly expensive backordered gift arriving after a breakup. —shudder—)

"What's more painful: Getting to taste a spoonful of pudding and then let someone take all pudding away forever from you or never having tasted it in the first place?"

If you speak about sex and intimacy, the latter. It's not even a contest. This is the same reason who people do break-up kisses and last nights together all the time if they are breaking up in amicable terms and not in middle of a household war.

That depends on who you are and what your mental state is. A buddy of mine is going through a fairly amicable divorce right now, but it's kind of broken him. Five years ago, if you'd said this to my face, because of where I was after my last breakup, I would've decked you. (Okay, probably not, because I have better self control than -that-, but I would've wanted to.)

But if we're gonna relate this back to the story, Are you talking about Yuu, or Sayaka? Because Sayaka has both been in love before and metabolized rejection pretty effectively, but this is Yuu's first rodeo, and she's slow to fall in love to begin with. So much so that for most of the series, she wasn't even sure that was what was happening, and we've already seen her starting to convince herself that she was never -actually- in love.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 2:55PM

Speaking of little details, did anybody notice Touko getting uncomfortable when they talked about yatsuhashi? Looks like she's still got Yuu on the brain.

Good eye—I had completely forgotten about that little detail.

So, given the present state of their relationship, does Touko buy yatsuhashi for Yuu or not?

Since that was almost literally the last thing they talked about before the Confession Event, it would be kind of an artifact of their previous intimacy; I suspect Touko isn’t going to bring back a present for all the stuco kouhai. (It’s a little hard to tell from a quick Google search how expensive souvenir-level yatsuhashi would be in Kyoto.)

(Yikes—that just dredged up a memory of a fairly expensive backordered gift arriving after a breakup. —shudder—)

It's too early to say, but it kind of feels like a Checkov's gun, so I'm betting it comes back up. If I was writing it, Touko buying Yuu's souvenier would represent her making a decision about trying to get Yuu back.

The bad end is Sayaka being toyed with, used and then broken up with afterwards. You know, the inevitable outcome of Touko accepting her confession?
You may be exceptionally hung up on the word "obstacle", but as a person I think Sayaka is way better off being rejected and getting a solid conclusion as early as possible.

This. Having read up to date on your exchanges on this, I spent most of the discussion agreeing with parts of both of your posts. I think it is very plausible that Touko's rejection could result in the end of their friendship. Even if there's no hard feelings, it's really hard to be around someone that you love, knowing they don't feel the same way. I tried to be friends with my ex for years, and it seriously damaged me, probably as much as the breakup did. And I wouldn't judge Sayaka if she just had to cut Touko off, and I doubt Touko would, although she would grieve for the lost friendship. I don't think losing the friendship is a foregone conclusion, but it's definitely possible.

But suggesting Sayaka doesn't have an identity outside of being Touko's second also isn't fair to her as a character, and I have no doubt that she could continue doing her job with the student council regardless.

But regardless of however she would respond to rejection, it's definitely worse to string her along than to just make a clear rejection. The only way a relationship with Sayaka makes sense (Edit: I mean, aside from just a -bad decision-,) is if Touko lets go of her feelings for Yuu, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 3:15PM

Until about half a month ago, I used to skip most essay-like posts... Now, essays, especially those of @Heavensrun, are, like, 3-second pause my favourite thing on this thread...

I think it is very plausible that Touko's rejection could result in the end of their friendship. Even if there's no hard feelings, it's really hard to be around someone that you love, knowing they don't feel the same way. I tried to be friends with my ex for years, and it seriously damaged me, probably as much as the breakup did.

I dunno, this strikes me as an example of one of those things I was talking about that a good writer could make go either way.

In the case of Touko rejecting her confession, Sayaka inevitably would be taking some serious emotional damage points, no doubt about it. But Sayaka must have been imagining a Touko rejection the entire time she was hiding her feelings and so to some extent is prepared for it.

And a declined (“rejected” seems a bit too harsh for how Touko would be likely to do it) confession isn’t quite the same as a breakup, either. Tougher in some ways because she’s gotten her hopes up after holding off for so long, but not exactly that toxic mixture of shock, denial, confusion, and sense of betrayal, etc. that goes with the breakup of an established relationship.

Tougher yet for Sayaka would be the discovery (if indeed this is what’s in store) of the depth and nature of Touko’s feelings for Yuu; so to stay on the student council would not only entail being around Touko but also seeing the two of them together. I wouldn’t expect Touko and Yuu to come out as lovebirds around the stuco office, but we know how sharply observant Sayaka is anyway, so just being there would have to hurt.

On the other hand, I think her loyalty to Touko as a friend wasn’t just a cover for her romantic feelings, and her commitment to helping with the official responsibilities wasn’t only an excuse to hang around the person she loved, either. So to simply throw over that friendship entirely and dump her school duties would cut against the grain of her established characteristics.

So I’m really just saying that a number of elements exist in the story that could be combined and developed in a variety of plausible ways. Again, assuming that Touko does not accept Sayaka’s feelings, a complete reversion to the previous status quo would almost certainly be impossible (the play shows us that, if nothing else), but other outcomes short of Touko* leaving the scene forever on a bus to Heartbreak City could well be in play.

If I were forced to submit an entry to the Million-Dollar Manga Prediction Sweepstakes, I might say that a rueful but stoical acceptance of the situation by Sayaka followed by a scaling back on her student-council participation in favor of a part-time job having something to do with the cafe would be consistent with the story and characters so far. Fortunately, though, there’s an actual writer at the helm instead of me.

EDIT: And by “Touko leaving the scene” I of course meant “Sayaka leaving the scene.” The brain, it is full of farts.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 8:14PM

I think it is very plausible that Touko's rejection could result in the end of their friendship. Even if there's no hard feelings, it's really hard to be around someone that you love, knowing they don't feel the same way. I tried to be friends with my ex for years, and it seriously damaged me, probably as much as the breakup did.

I dunno, this strikes me as an example of one of those things I was talking about that a good writer could make go either way.

In the case of Touko rejecting her confession, Sayaka inevitably would be taking some serious emotional damage points, no doubt about it. But Sayaka must have been imagining a Touko rejection the entire time she was hiding her feelings and so to some extent is prepared for it.

And a declined (“rejected” seems a bit too harsh for how Touko would be likely to do it) confession isn’t quite the same as a breakup, either. Tougher in some ways because she’s gotten her hopes up after holding off for so long, but not exactly that toxic mixture of shock, denial, confusion, and sense of betrayal, etc. that goes with the breakup of an established relationship.

Tougher yet for Sayaka would be the discovery (if indeed this is what’s in store) of the depth and nature of Touko’s feelings for Yuu; so to stay on the student council would not only entail being around Touko but also seeing the two of them together. I wouldn’t expect Touko and Yuu to come out as lovebirds around the stuco office, but we know how sharply observant Sayaka is anyway, so just being there would have to hurt.

On the other hand, I think her loyalty to Touko as a friend wasn’t just a cover for her romantic feelings, and her commitment to helping with the official responsibilities wasn’t only an excuse to hang around the person she loved, either. So to simply throw over that friendship entirely and dump her school duties would cut against the grain of her established characteristics.

So I’m really just saying that a number of elements exist in the story that could be combined and developed in a variety of plausible ways. Again, assuming that Touko does not accept Sayaka’s feelings, a complete reversion to the previous status quo would almost certainly be impossible (the play shows us that, if nothing else), but other outcomes short of Touko leaving the scene forever on a bus to Heartbreak City could well be in play.

If I were forced to submit an entry to the Million-Dollar Manga Prediction Sweepstakes, I might say that a rueful but stoical acceptance of the situation by Sayaka followed by a scaling back on her student-council participation in favor of a part-time job having something to do with the cafe would be consistent with the story and characters so far. Fortunately, though, there’s an actual writer at the helm instead of me.

Yeah, I just wanted to say I agree with pretty much all of this. Sayaka and Touko's friendship surviving would depend heavily on how Touko handles things, and Sayaka would definitely have a harder time metabolizing "I'm not the closest to her" than she would have metabolizing "She just doesn't want to date anyone."

My own predictions are pretty short term. I think we're going to get a Touko POV chapter where she tries to process Sayaka and Yuu's confessions, her own feelings, and I think it's gonna end with her making a firm decision to get Yuu back. I -also- think we're going to get another chapter of Yuu regressing away from her feelings and the people around her noticing and worrying about it. I still think Rei has a role to play somewhere in all this.

Essay like posts are always fun to read as long as it’s full of ideas and reasonable arguments, and not downwardly insult characters or how the way the author wrote it just because it isn’t their taste.

Anyway, my prediction is any of Rei, Maki or Koyomi kinda has a role play somewhere in it for Yuu’s side.

Anyway, my prediction is any of Rei, Maki or Koyomi kinda has a role play somewhere in it for Yuu’s side.

Maki (that is, his role in the story) is the one that’s been driving me a little nuts for some time. In 99 series out of 100, his seeing the kiss would have some repercussion or another down the line, even if it were a benign one, like being someone for Yuu to talk to.

But here, basically nothing—I can’t even recall any particularly knowing glances or raised eyebrows off to the side (there was that early exchange with Sayaka about Yuu being especially close to Touko, but that wouldn’t even require him seeing the kiss, just him being a noticing person). So while the discovery itself made Yuu reflect on her feelings, ever since then the discovery has been a dead letter.

In 99 series out of 100, it would be just another dropped stitch, something the author considered developing and either reconsidered or just forgot about. But this one doesn’t have many false moves or dead ends, so I keep waiting for Maki’s knowledge that Yuu and Touko had been in an intimate relationship (the only other person who knows that for sure in the series) to somehow come back into play.

I, of course, am Team Rei Intervention all the way. I don’t even care to predict how she might do it—I just want her to somehow open up an extra-large can of Super Big Sis sauce on someone.

last edited at Jan 10, 2019 11:58AM

Anyway, my prediction is any of Rei, Maki or Koyomi kinda has a role play somewhere in it for Yuu’s side.

Maki (that is,his role in the story) is the one that’s been driving me a little nuts for some time. In 99 series out of 100, his seeing the kiss would have some repercussion or another down the line, even if it were a benign one, like being someone for Yuu to talk to.

But here, basically nothing—I can’t even recall any particularly knowing glances or raised eyebrows off to the side (there was that early exchange with Sayaka about Yuu being especially close to Touko, but that wouldn’t even require him seeing the kiss, just him being a noticing person). So while the discovery itself made Yuu reflect on her feelings, ever since then the discovery has been a dead letter.

In 99 series out of 100, it would be just another dropped stitch, something the author considered developing and either reconsidered or just forgot about. But this one doesn’t have many false moves or dead ends, so I keep waiting for Maki’s knowledge that Yuu and Touko had been in an intimate relationship (the only other person who knows that for sure in the series) to somehow come back into play.

I, of course, am Team Rei Intervention all the way. I don’t even care to predict how she might do it—I just want her to somehow open up a extra-large can of Super Big Sis sauce on someone.

I mean, he clearly noticed something is amiss with Touko and Yuu, so he might strike up a conversation, and he was there for her to talk to during the sports festival. I think he's partly there to provide a contrast to show the difference between Yuu and a true aro ace. (and possibly also to say "Yes, ace people, I know you are there and I am not trying to erase you by having Yuu fall in love."

I think that whatever path leads to Yuu sorting out and finally getting to better understand her feelings will begin with Maki. I can see him trying to confront Yuu about the recent change in hers and Touko's relationship, but ultimately being unable to truly get to her. From then on, I could see several characters getting involved: Rei and Koyomi are the most likely options, but I personally would love it if it was Natsuki, or Riko sensei.

I've also wondered if there is any significance to the recording of the play. I mean, no one but Touko's friend has seen it, and it makes me think that there's something in the CD that will become important to the plot (though it may also just be there as a reminder for both Touko and Yuu of how much each became a part of the other's life).

I've also wondered if there is any significance to the recording of the play. I mean, no one but Touko's friend has seen it, and it makes me think that there's something in the CD that will become important to the plot (though it may also just be there as a reminder for both Touko and Yuu of how much each became a part of the other's life).

Not just her, Miyako also saw it. Well, both of Touko's friends (Midori and Manaka) and Yuu had a copy of it in her room, but idk it it was meant to be very important.

I've also wondered if there is any significance to the recording of the play. I mean, no one but Touko's friend has seen it, and it makes me think that there's something in the CD that will become important to the plot (though it may also just be there as a reminder for both Touko and Yuu of how much each became a part of the other's life).

Not just her, Miyako also saw it. Well, both of Touko's friends (Midori and Manaka) and Yuu had a copy of it in her room, but idk it it was meant to be very important.

You're right, I completely forgot about Miyako mentioning she watched the recording. Still, Touko's friends burned a DVD for everybody (though I'm unsure if they meant everybody in the Karaoke at the moment,or everybody in the StuCo), but at the time both Yuu and Sayaka were against them playing it right there, so I was under the impression only Midori and Manaka had actually watched it at the time.

Tbh, I don't know what exactly I want to see, even if it turns out the DVD actually ends up being important for the big "Touko x Yuu reconciliation".

I’ve got a couple of unrelated questions having to do with Sayaka. Maybe the first is just an observation:

Twice we’ve had examples of Sayaka starting fairly significant conversations that we haven’t actually been shown:

In Chapter 23, Sayaka asks Touko to tell her about her sister, specifically what Mio meant to her. The staging explicitly refuses to show what was said, because once Sayaka makes her request, we get 6 mostly silent panels of before and after the unseen conversation (some of which could have been used to show the scene). I assume the matter would simply repeat information that we know from before, but it is a scene of Touko opening up to Sayaka that should be of some emotional significance to their relationship.

Then in Chapter 36, Sayaka asks Miyako to tell her about her relationship with Riko. Miyako agrees, then we cut away to the two of them coming home. To some extent the subsequent special chapter stands in for that conversation (but isn’t a literal reenactment of it—Sayaka asked about the relationship generally, not for the story of how they met and got together).

No big point here, just a pattern that we don’t see too often unless there’s obviously going to be a later reveal—you know, two characters lean in together and one says, “OK, here’s the plan . . “ (Cutaway to something else, with the plan to be shown later).

The second one is a real question: Why is it a given that Miyako and Sayaka going somewhere after school together is “wrong,” and that Riko is going to scold them (which she does)? What rules are being broken, and why do teachers get to scold students for what they’re doing with their free time?

That “What are you thinking, taking some kid around?” implies that it’s a serious transgression of some kind (unless it’s implied paranoia/anxiety about potential lesbian sexual abuse charges or something).

The second one is a real question: Why is it a given that Miyako and Sayaka going somewhere after school together is “wrong,” and that Riko is going to scold them (which she does)? What rules are being broken, and why do teachers get to scold students for what they’re doing with their free time?

That's something that's been discussed elsewhere in the forums, a lot of schools have rules about going straight home after school with no stops. From what I'm able to tell, part of it is not having students loiter and generally gad about wearing the school's uniform, which reflects badly on them. Schools in Japan compete for students, all the more with the famously dropping birth rate, so having students just go wherever with uniforms that identify the school isn't considered good.

The second one is a real question: Why is it a given that Miyako and Sayaka going somewhere after school together is “wrong,” and that Riko is going to scold them (which she does)? What rules are being broken, and why do teachers get to scold students for what they’re doing with their free time?

That's something that's been discussed elsewhere in the forums, a lot of schools have rules about going straight home after school with no stops. From what I'm able to tell, part of it is not having students loiter and generally gad about wearing the school's uniform, which reflects badly on them. Schools in Japan compete for students, all the more with the famously dropping birth rate, so having students just go wherever with uniforms that identify the school isn't considered good.

Right, but it’s always been unclear to me if the main priority is “go right home” or “don’t be out doing bad things in your uniform.” (Or even, “Obey the arbitrary rules because obedience.”) In any case, a visit to a tea shop in the company of a respectable adult seems like a pretty benign activity.

I thought it was pretty obvious why Riko was upset. Leaving aside the uniform thing, which I agree with, I think she was simply worried because Sayaka is underage, so if something happened to her, Miyako would be responsible for it. We don't know what time it was when Miyako left Sayaka in the coffee shop but it was at night, and given Riko is a teacher and also seems to have a strong and strict personality, I can see why she reacted like that (and she didn't seem that mad, either). I don't think Miyako being a lesbian had anything to do with it btw.

last edited at Jan 10, 2019 8:45PM

Hello everyone! Been silent reader this whole time and then create an account just to share this.
The synopsis of Yagakimi spin off "Saeki Sayaka ni Tsuite", if anyone interested.
https://greatpassage.wordpress.com/2018/11/16/yagate-kimi-ni-naru-saeki-sayaka-ni-tsuite/

I don't know whether anyone has already share it or not, but here it is for anyone who interested in Sayaka's story.

Seems like I'm late to the party woops. As much as I love Yuu x Touko, I can't help loving Sayaka as well. I'm really impressed by her courage! I'm looking forward to ch38... I'm really curious about what Nakatani sensei has in store for our girls :3

last edited at Jan 11, 2019 12:04PM

How am I supposed to survive until we've got chapter 38? THE DRAMA IS CRACKING MY NERVE!!!

Being a true ToukoYuu shipper I'm seriously concerned about the direction of the plot (although we all knew it would happen).

Despite that I can't help but love Sayaka as well. She is a good girl, and the best wingwoman possible (that is, should she choose to support Touko instead of waging war against her kouhai), so please don't make her suffer in this unrequited love tragedy! She's been through this once, DON'T YOU DARE TO REPEAT IT!

JUST SHIP SAYAKA WITH ANOTHER GOOD GIRL
JUST DO IT

P/s: Authors in general love to bully any girls named Sayaka. Just a coincidence I guess.

last edited at Jan 12, 2019 5:04AM

Authors in general love to bully any girls named Sayaka. Just a coincidence I guess

You can make a meme out of this.

Touko and I share the same birthday lmao

YagaKimi made it into top 10 for the 2018 Nico Nico's annual anime general election voted by internet users: https://twitter.com/islamctear/status/1084455934519328768

It also won the Phoenix award (https://twitter.com/nico_nico_news/status/1083350152549548032 & https://twitter.com/yagakimi/status/1084446935967096833) where it was voted back into the main race for top 10 after being eliminated in an earlier round (top 5 for each season).

There was a live stream for the announcement and actual trophies were being handed out as well: https://twitter.com/nico_nico_news/status/1084460076444733441 (You can see YagaKimi's producer holding the phoenix trophy on the right. He's wearing a YagaKimi shirt underneath the grey coat with YagaKimi badges pinning on it around the waist. True dedication lol)

last edited at Jan 13, 2019 12:39PM