sigh

Hmm,?

#ThingsNobodyCaresAbout

Happy Birthday me.

#ThingsNobodyCaresAbout

Happy Birthday me.

Do you believe in fate?
It can't be a coincidence that my neck stopped hurting the very same day your life came into existence, a greater force is in play here mate
...And also happy birthday

Happy Birthday SF!!! ٩(♡ε♡ )

... of course we care about that!
Hope you're doing good!!! (o^-^o)

Do you believe in fate?

I never played the games but I plan to watch Fate/Ze- Oh...Are we talking about the games or actual real life Fate?
:P

It can't be a coincidence that my neck stopped hurting the very same day your life came into existence, a greater force is in play here mate

It's because of our lord and savior Homura Akemi! She is the one who has taken your pain away! I had nothing to do with that!

...And also happy birthday
Happy Birthday SF!!! ٩(♡ε♡ )
... of course we care about that!

You guys are the best ❤️

Hope you're doing good!!! (o^-^o)

Well I'm doing ok, I wouldn't say things are great but y'know, things are going pretty ok for me. School has been harder but I'm still keeping up. Heh

last edited at Oct 19, 2017 8:46AM

Well I'm doing ok, I wouldn't say things are great but y'know, things are going pretty ok for me. School has been harder but I'm still keeping up. Heh

School sure sounds like a real pain... But I'm sure you'll manage! You're a clever fella after all! ೕ(•̀ᴗ•́)

can anyone recommend me good art books on drawing buildings?(architecture, anything like that.)

Oh SHIT Thor Ragnarok's rolling this week already, guess it's time to sharpen my MCU lore 'cause no doubt my father will have forgotten everything that's happened again and it's up to me to bring him up to speed
At least it'll be easier than explaining Mahjong to him
Sick bastard
Who does that?
Walk up to someone and say "Hey explain me Mahjong"?
You don't do that, man
It's against the rules y'know

meep

Ooooooh boooy... Extremely late to the party but... Just finished watching Lost
The ending wasn't the complete piece of shit i was expecting it to be, it certainly wasn't on the level of How I Met Your Mother, but boy they sure did forgot to explain, well... A lot!
Time to spend the rest of the day looking up supplementary material i guess

A new abandoned cat joins our ranks, now we have 5.5 cats in our residence
Just a few more steps and i'll fufill my dream of becoming a crazy cat lady!

Merry Halloween!
I'd change my avi to a Halloween themed one but my current one already seems fitting. ^.^

Happy Halloween to everyone! Hope the little trick or treaters come out this year. Its sad that kids don't really do that anymore like they did when I was a kid...mostly thanks to idiot helicopter parenting.

:sigh:

Damn parents! Get your kids on my lawn!

@MistressTiramisu I remember you. Welcome back. I tend to be a forum lurker. It more fun XD

Mistress Hey, I remember you... I was wondering how you were doing... because last time you had problems with your best friend, and also you had problems with your computer, if I’m not mistaken.

I’m going through my own anxieties right now.. but I believe we can make it... there are always rainbows after the rain.. and you are always welcome here! ^^

Koveras
Alternatively, we could go here. It is an off-topic thread for this Forum, so basically we can discuss anything there. The place is almost completely dead at this point, so all the reason more no one would object.

Welp, let's give it a shot.

Continuing the discussion from here:

The best courtship is beating each other silly with non-lethal weaponry. ^__^

...provided you wear a Barrier Jacket.

Barrier Jackets just protect you from getting slammed against the walls and such. AFAIK the magical attacks themselves don't actually cause any permanent physical damage in Nanohaverse...

Notice the number of walls and bulkheads that gets smashed. Only reason Quattro survived that was because of her Silver Cape, which is cyborg equivalent to a Barrier Jacket.

Edit: Besides, it would be highly unusual to have a military based on non-lethal weaponry. Arc-en-ciel, the ship-carried magical wave motion gun, and basically the ultimate magical weapon TSAB has in its arsenal, is stated to be capable of obliterating everything in a 100 mile radius.

I admit that there is a weird discrepancy in the destructive potential of Mid magic against living and non-living matter. Here is a counterexample for you: when Vice accidentally shot his sister (who was definitively not wearing any protective magics at the time) through the eye, she merely lost vision in that one eye, as if from an intense laser, rather than losing half of her head, as she would with an equivalent RL sniper rifle. I also recall him and Teana later shooting Nove, Wendi, and Deed in the (visibly unprotected) heads with magic bullets to instantly knock them out without causing any lasting physical damage. Come think of it, even Quattro was completely engulfed in Nanoha's DB beam, so either the Barrier Jackets (and the Numbers' counterparts) cover the entire body in a uniform layer of protection (a broad conjecture), or the magical attacks used by Mid mages only cause pain and fatigue without actual physical damage to most tissues (hypersensitive ones like retinas not included).

As for your second point, TSAB is not a military, despite having armed forces. Much rather, they position themselves as a paramilitary force whose purpose is policing, peacekeeping, and disposing of Lost Logia. Recall that Regius Gaiz' ideas about building up the Mid's military capacities did not sit well with anyone else in the Bureau, so much so that he had to conspire with Scaglietti to build his Einherial system and to sacrifice Zest to cover it all up. As for the Arc-en-ciel, it has only been used for Lost Logia disposal, never as a weapon against living beings, and only in space. Sure, if you pump enough energy into a limited space, everything within that space will disintegrate, but I don't think any regular Midchildan mage can pull that off (note that I only speak of the Mid mages, not the Belkan girls with their murder spells).

Koveras
Good points. However, what makes me think Midchildan magic could very well be lethal is Vice's example. While it is true it only affected his sister's eye, point remains it still had a physical impact of some kind. And since TSAB is big on the whole non-lethal approach, the reason the damage was not more extensive might have been because Vice was probably aiming to knock out the criminal, not outright kill him.

the Barrier Jackets (and the Numbers' counterparts) cover the entire body in a uniform layer of protection (a broad conjecture), or the magical attacks used by Mid mages only cause pain and fatigue without actual physical damage to most tissues (hypersensitive ones like retinas not included)

I am personally more inclined to the former interpretation, especially since many female Barrier Jackets have exposed arms, legs, or midriffs (in a mildly stripperiffic take on what should essentially be a battle armour). One thing that stands out, in my opinion, is the amount of clothing would seem to indicate the level of protection, as Fate's Sonic Form demonstrates, but the clothing itself seems more like a symbolic representation of the barrier, rather than being the armour itself. Otherwise, everyone would be clothed head-to-toe.

One other problem is we never actually see Nanoha, or anyone, for that matter, going full throttle against an opponent who does not have magical protection of one kind or another. Alternatively, we never see them going full force against a protected enemy, but with unprotected collateral casualties in the immediate vicinity. So the non-lethal element is displayed only against opponents who wear magical protection.

Now, one further reason I think Midchildan magic probably has a lethal setting is what you mentioned at the end. Belkan magic clearly has lethal capabilities. On-screen example is Signum killing Zest. One particularly interesting thing about that scene, it seems the magic was what dealt all of the damage. She clearly sliced him quite severely, yet in the end there is no blood or wound of any kind, indicating it was entirely the magical aspect of the weapon that killed him, despite the fact Laevatein is an actual material sword.
Now, while Belkan magic is not the same as Midchildan, it is still magic. I always imagined it made more sense that magic is simply the energy source, while particular styles, Belkan, Midchildan, and such, were basically differences in approach to the usage of that energy. It does not make a lot of sense for the two magical systems in the same universe to operate under completely different parameters.

Also, the fact remains that since the fall of the Belkan Empire, it was Midchilda who rose to prominence, and basically took over the vacant position of the global power. Supools, the planet where Caro and Erio go to after StrikerS, is designated as Administrated world number 61. Even taking into account the possibility that administrated and non-administrated worlds are numbered under the same column, there are at least ten named, canonical administrated planets, and it stands to reason there are more, by the sheer numbers used for designating. Whatever TSAB present itself as, fact is they hold a global reach that goes far beyond mere policing. Realistically, in order to keep these worlds in order, TSAB has to have military capabilities, which is indicated by the fact they use military ranks, military-grade equipment, and have what amounts to a sizeable battle fleet, even if they do not market it as such. I always compared them to Star Trek's Federation in this regard.
Now, my point is, it just seems unrealistic they could have risen to such a position, if their magical system was inherently non-lethal. Especially since we know, on the example of the Belkan Empire, that this universe is not an idealised, demilitarised paradise. What if another expansionist empire emerges, how would the TSAB defend itself? The sheer size of the administrated space, and the reasonable possibility of an external threat, suggest that TSAB does have proper military capabilities, and I just find it unfeasible they could keep this up if their magical system was designed to be non-lethal. Most likely, they are just trained to use non-lethal settings, which would keep with the peacekeeping, policing aspect they are evidently so big on.

Furthermore, we have to take into account the fact their usual adversaries, the criminals, are not inclined to play under TSAB rules. Since this universe clearly has lethal magical capabilities (Belkan), seems like TSAB mages would be at a disadvantage if they had no option of shoot-to-kill at their disposal. Now, most criminals are not high-grade Belkan mages, and this is what actually further lends credence to we-do-not-kill official approach, since TSAB mages could easily dispose of such targets, but it would tarnish their reputation, much like excessive force allegations can do for real world police forces. However, it also stands to reason they will have the option, should circumstances become dire enough.

But even the high-grade non-lethal attacks (such as Starlight Breaker), as I mentioned above, are never used on unprotected targets, so it is questionable if they indeed are non-lethal by their nature, or are they such only when used against an opponent who has a Barrier Jacket, or an equivalent.

One other explanation is that both sides of the argument are going in too deep, so to say. It is entirely possible the 'no killing' thing was implemented by the staff/author, to lighten the show. Alternatively, this could have been done with no ulterior motive at all, simply as a result of not much thought put into this particular aspect.

The Doylist argument against killing goes right out of the window if consider Force canon (and I don't see any reason not to), besides, it's not a very fun one. :P

Regarding your other points, you often argument from "infeasibility", but I do not think our thoughts on feasibility of certain notions apply to a highly-advanced futuristic society that exists across multiple worlds and has confronted and apparently long solved social questions that ours doesn't even begin to consider (like how to deal with living sentient beings who are not human (dragons), humans who have been grown in a vat, and sentient beings composed entirely of magic). Given, however, how this counterargument provokes the notion that we can't really say anything about the Mid except what has been directly shown to us, I will accept the validity of your feasibility arguments for now.

Now, we clearly have examples of Ancient Belkan magic being used to kill, and we know from canon (though I can't provide a specific citation) that both Belkan and Mid magic rely on the same type of energy/mana. Hence, if there is a difference in how the two systems treat living and/or organic and inorganic matter, it must be in their own restrictions of how magical energy is used, rather than in the nature of magic itself. My original argument was that most attack spells of the Mid school are non-lethal, even if taken without a Barrier Jacket. Conversely, there are examples when a person is physically harmed by a Mid spell even while wearing a Jacket (Precia shoots right through Arf in season 1, leaving a perforating wound; Nanoha's fingers bleed when she catches Teana's blade with them during the White Devil incident). With these and previously named examples, it appears to me that while magical energy can always be used to cause bodily harm, the vast majority of Mid spells are designed to overwhelm the target's magical defenses (if any) and nervous system instead. In other words, Mid magic is set to stun unless specifically designed to kill, which is strongly discouraged (remember that Precia was an insane wanted criminal, while Teana got head-cooled as punishment for, among other things, using a lethal form of magic).

The other point of contention seems to be whether TSAB is a military or not, and consequently, whether they need lethal weapons that can be set to stun or non-lethal weapons that need an optional lethal setting. My answer is still that they are not a military, since there is no other organized military or paramilitary force for them to fight, and we never get any indications that there have been major interdimensional armed conflicts since the Belkan Wars. As such, I cannot imagine which "external threat" you may be referring to. In such political situation it would actually be very easy for TSAB to position itself as the interdimensional law enforcement and administration body that only polices, without imposing its will with military might. Recall, for instance, that they do not interfere in the armed conflict on Orusea (SSX), even though, have they had an active military, they could have easily moved in and nipped the hostilities in the bud with superior firepower. Taking the Doylist perspective again, I think that TSAB is much more inspired by the bureaucratic structures of the Chinese Han and Tang dynasties (Han get a bonus for rising from the ashes of the Warring States, similar to how Mid rose from Belka's remains, while Tang pioneered the standardized public servant exams like the Mid has for its mages, see StrikerS), than by the pre-modern and modern Western (particularly British-American) imperialistic militarism.

I would also like to point out that what makes an organization a military is not the ranks, the weaponry, and the vehicles but the purpose and the personal training derived from it. A military's purpose is to destroy other states and militaries' combat capacity, allowing their respective rules to enforce their policies onto other states. A police's purpose is to preserve social order, using violence if necessary, but always with the goal of saving lives and property, if possible. While both require extensive physical training and discipline, one major difference is in the psychological conditioning: a military trains you to kill before you and your squadmates are killed, a police trains you to find ways to spare even those who try to kill you (unless, of course, you live in some crazy country where the cops always shoot to kill). Given that there has not been any comparable military or political structure for TSAB to fight in the past 80 years (see above), and that at no point do we see any TSAB personnel officially sanctioning the use of lethal force (and recall that Signum specifically declines training duties in StrikerS because she can only teach others to kill and doesn't consider it useful knowledge for Bureau cadets), I'd say it is much more logical to assume that TSAB sees itself and functions much more as a law enforcement agency than as a military. And as such, they should require their agents to use non-lethal weaponry as much as possible (even in the face of criminal using lethal weapons against them -- in fact, they would be specifically trained for that, just like the RL police), especially considering that most of their engagements must happen in densely populated urban areas and we know that even on the Mid, most people don't have magical talents and cannot summon Barrier Jackets (and Yuuno is apparently the only guy in the universe who is overpowered enough to actually stop and reverse time to fix collateral damage).

If you would like to know what the Mid would look like if TSAB actually was a military with someone to fight, I can recommend reading the Nanoha BetrayerS doujin. Or not, if you don't want to witness the Nanoha canon and ideals completely perverted and defiled.

Regarding the Doylist argument, it is still possible this aspect was just something they neglected to address, or, alternatively, they toned up the violence in "Force". I have only gone through "Force" once, years ago, and I have not revisited it since, so my knowledge is shaky, at best, but I do not remember anyone being killed on-screen. I agree it is not a fun argument, though, and it is not something I am much interested in pursuing, to be honest. I brought it up mostly to bring attention to the fact many aspects of any given show that arise debate amongst the fans could simply be something the creators did not even think about. That being said, I am merely mentioning this, I am not interested in actually taking this stance.

My original argument was that most attack spells of the Mid school are non-lethal, even if taken without a Barrier Jacket.

Only way to know is if we see those attacks used against someone without a Barrier Jacket, which, as of yet, has not happened. These attacks could be completely non-lethal, but they could also be lethal, just not on a protected target. I am personally of the latter opinion, but at this point, it is not much more than a personal view that makes sense to me. After all, if this was actually answered by the show, we would not be having this discussion.
Now, considering TSAB is big on the policing aspect, it stands to reason their mages would tone it down when going against regular criminals, who should account for the majority of their usual adversaries, and are probably not high-grade mages. As I said, this actually makes a lot of sense. In this particular aspect, I do believe most spells used are indeed non-lethal, but I also think Bureau personnel would have a shoot-to-kill option, if the need arises, merely on account of the fact other magical systems (and even Midchildan, on occasion, according to the examples we already provided) have the capability to inflict bodily harm, and even outright kill. It just seems like a bad policy to not have the option to match your enemies, should circumstances become dire enough, and it would place TSAB at a disadvantage I find hard to explain, given they managed to become so big.

especially considering that most of their engagements must happen in densely populated urban areas and we know that even on the Mid, most people don't have magical talents and cannot summon Barrier Jackets

That is another problem, as well. The sheer destructive power. Again has me wondering if the creator thought this one through. Such an attack can lay a building low (these spells doing material damage is pretty much indisputable), thus carrying the risk of: A) killing the target by proxy, through fall, flying debris, or burying them beneath the rubble (the Barrier Jackets indeed protect from kinetic damage, from what we have seen in the show, but what if the mana sustaining the armour got depleted in the final punch?); B) killing other, unprotected people in or around the structure, again by proxy. And the thing is, these attacks are used in combat, when decisions are made in split seconds, and rely on insufficient data. How would a mage know there are no possible collateral casualties in the vicinity, or indeed if the protection of whomever they are firing upon will last long enough to protect them from potential secondary damage? And since these massive attacks seem to be needed to overpower strong opponents, how would TSAB contain such an opponent in a densely populated urban area?
Considering this potential to inflict fatalities, I find it hard to believe the attacks themselves are non-lethal. Now, this is not an actual argument, I know. A spell could very well be non-lethal, and still inflict massive material damage, but I just find that hard to believe, as a concept someone in that universe had come up with at some point. It is like designing a bomb that could lay a fort low, but spare the garrison. It sounds great, but since one could not guarantee the crew would not sustain massive casualties through secondary damage, I see little point in this. Especially since it drains the energy from the caster, just seems wasteful.

Do note, I am not saying "all Mid attacks are lethal", I am arguing that the high-grade ones, like the Starlight Breaker, probably are, if fired on unprotected targets. One further reason is something that ties in with what you said before.
It is possible you are indeed correct, that they are designed to overwhelm the magical defences, and concentrate on the nervous system of the opponent, but evidently, that requires a lot of power being discharged (when facing a well-protected enemy), and I think most of it is used for bringing the defences down (since in real life, the nervous system itself can be brought down quite easily, without the need for overwhelming levels of energy). An undefended target would get the full weight of the attack solely on their nervous system, and considering the amount of energy we are talking here, I doubt it would be non-lethal. Let us take the example of Vice's sister again. It is entirely possible the injury she sustained was inflicted to her eye's nervous system. It would keep with the idea of the nervous system being the intended target. If we also speculate that Vice was probably aiming to knock out the criminal (which would keep with TSAB's apparent policy of avoiding killing their opponents), this means that a relatively low-level attack, used on a target without protection, resulted in lasting physical damage.
Now, the attack itself was evidently not lethal, even against an unarmoured person, but if a relatively weak attack like that can do this, imagine what a Starlight Breaker could, under same circumstances.

As for the military argument, that is why I phrased it as "having military capabilities", rather than "being an outright military". I also said they are "trained to use non-lethal settings, which would keep with the peacekeeping, policing aspect". Basically, between TSAB being a full-on military (which obviously it is not), and it being just a peacekeeping police force (which I find unlikely), I am taking the middle approach. Most of their staff is probably involved, and trained in, the usual policing duties. However, they likely do have the capability of militarising (and probably dedicated staff and resources to see this through) if the need arises. I am not saying there is a current external threat present in the show, I said "reasonable possibility of an external threat". The universe is a pretty big place, and can not be treated as a single planet, where all the players are known, visible, and within immediate reach. One role of the military you overlooked is defence, to prevent others imposing their policies onto you.
We have not seen any of the administrated worlds possessing their own military, or even police forces. If they did, that would lead to constant clashes over jurisdiction with the Bureau, and make the whole system unfeasible (what if the local politicians or populace want their own forces to take care of certain things, only way this is not a constant issue is if they have no such forces, and instead rely on the Bureau). It stands to reason they look to the TSAB for not only policing the area, but military defence as well.

Now, this all ties in with my opinion of the high-grade Mid spells being lethal, because otherwise, TSAB's best personnel, its high level mages, would be a rather unreliable asset in a large scale crisis (such as a war, even a localised one), and I doubt anyone would deliberately design an entire magical system around this concept.

As for Orusea, it is not an administrated world. There could be any number of political reasons TSAB does not want to get involved. If they did, it is quite possible their fleet alone would be enough to settle the conflict (however, this is just my opinion, largely unsubstantiated, it would depend on the level of Orusean military, on which we know nothing).

If you would like to know what the Mid would look like if TSAB actually was a military with someone to fight, I can recommend reading the Nanoha BetrayerS doujin. Or not, if you don't want to witness the Nanoha canon and ideals completely perverted and defiled.

I quite liked the "BetrayerS", but the approach I am going here is closer to a fanfic series called "Shadowverse". Basically, the TSAB has a department, the eponymous Shadows, who do the Bureau's dirty work (covert operations of all sorts, assassinations, etc.). While not exactly a military approach, it has two elements that can tie in to all of this, and which I quite like. One is the fact TSAB recognises some threats need to be dealt with less heroically (and decidedly un-police-like), shall we say. The other is that Mid magic can be used with lethal purposes. It actually goes into the mindset of the usual TSAB mage (Nanoha), who is specifically trained to avoid shoot-first-and-shot-to-kill, and who, as a result, loathes the Shadows, and considers them no better than murderers. Can be found here.

I miss when robots couldn't climb stairs

Kyonne posted:

I miss when robots couldn't climb stairs

Holy fuck that is amazing @__@

Well.....I'm here ^^;
But yeah....It really does suck that the thread is dead. I guess people are just more busy nowadays and don't really have much freetime on their hands. But don't worry! I'm sure that the Cafe will come back to it's former glory sometime in the future! Just gotta have hope!

Mistress
I’m sorry to hear that, but who knows, maybe now you will find a better friend instead ^^

About the Internet... I can feel you on that... I haven’t had internet recently... and well... I rediscovered the magic of books, the radio, and herbal tea xD ....
Also I’ve been busier than usual.. I have troubles making myself speak French because I’m so anxious... it’s stupid because everyone around is nice and helpful.

Ashleigh

I do remember you ! Kinda sad that this story between you and your friend turned out badly.

And unfortinately, I don't have much time on my hands to spend lazing around... School work has never been this intense .-.

Kitty

I have troubles making myself speak French because I’m so anxious

Parler français ? Rien de plus simple ! x)
Si tu as besoin d'aide quelconque dans ton éventuel apprentissage, n'hésite pas à me le faire savoir; je serai ravi d'aider quelqu'un voulant apprendre la belle langue de Molière !