unless you think Amazon is a really shitty company

Um, . . .

https://www.theverge.com/2015/8/15/9159309/you-probably-dont-want-to-work-for-amazon

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/23/worse_than_wal_mart_amazons_sick_brutality_and_secret_history_of_ruthlessly_intimidating_workers/

last edited at Sep 6, 2017 10:35AM

unless you think Amazon is a really shitty company

Um, . . .

https://www.theverge.com/2015/8/15/9159309/you-probably-dont-want-to-work-for-amazon
http://www.salon.com/2014/02/23/worse_than_wal_mart_amazons_sick_brutality_and_secret_history_of_ruthlessly_intimidating_workers/

The Times has uncovered several cases where workers who were sick, grieving, or otherwise encumbered by the realities of life were pushed out of the company. A woman who had a miscarriage was told to travel on a business trip the day after both her twins were stillborn. Another woman recovering from breast cancer was given poor performance rankings and was warned that she was in danger of losing her job.

Yeah, calling bullshit since I know of a current employee who was hit by a truck and is currently in a coma that is still on payroll.

With Walmart’s and Amazon’s business model, the workplace practices that raise employee productivity to very high levels also keep employees off balance and thus ill placed to secure wage increases that match their increased output.

This is also just plain false seeing as how you got bonus compensation depending on how often you attend work and how productive your warehouse is.

These two articles don't make much sense if you have actually worked at Amazon.

last edited at Sep 6, 2017 11:06AM

Wow, you really do know everything.

Wow, you really do know everything.

No, just the company I work for.

Also the first article has a reply from Amazon blatantly calling some of the claims false. Now do you believe the company that is being called evil the the ex-employees who were probably mad for being fired for something other than what they claimed to be fired for?

Me? I'm just going to believe me own knowledge and experiences.

last edited at Sep 6, 2017 11:42AM

And how is Eagle Jump treating you?

And how is Eagle Jump treating you?

You can try to be a smart ass all you want, but when people start making absolute claims such as "no company would to X" and I work for a very successful company that does X then I'm going to call them out.

I have no reason to doubt that you know how a real-life company works. As has been suggested several times already, if New Game were a documentary about a real-life company, or if New Game presented itself as a template for how a real-life game company should operate, your main argument about how readers should perceive Naru would be plausible. But since the distinction between actual contemporary business practices and those of a fictional storyworld seems to be irrelevant to you, there's not much more left to say.

I have no reason to doubt that you know how a real-life company works. As has been suggested several times already, if New Game were a documentary about a real-life company, or if New Game presented itself as a template for how a real-life game company should operate, your main argument about how readers should perceive Naru would be plausible. But since the distinction between actual contemporary business practices and those of a fictional storyworld seems to be irrelevant to you, there's not much more left to say.

I'm not the one who tried bringing in actual business practices. Just refuting someone who stated that Naru would have been fired if it were a real business because of her attitude towards senior team members, but I guess following the whole thread to see the context of the conversation is a little too much to ask for.

Nene was fine without Naru being a jerk to her. She would have still been serious. She wants to impress Umiko and enjoys programming and does want to get better. Now, instead of just that, she also has to prove to this rude girl that she isn't just for show.

Naru would have been first talked to before being fired. Any place that would have canned Naru right away is maybe a bit excessive, especially on an intern who doesn't know what work is like.

Also Anime Naru is worse than Manga Naru but I already expected her to be rude to Nene so it was not as frustrating.

Except Nene wasnt fine. She was still full of herself from being accepted despite lack of skill while not having any real motivation besides coding for fun. She didnt even have the motivation to go above and beyond with her maze game until Naru said something.

Everyone talks about Naru being fired but Umiko doesn't seem phased by how she worked with Hajime. If you irritate them, Naru will have an attitude, Umiko will shoot you with a pellet gun. Yet, its Naru who people think should be fired.

Please, she was kidding around. Nene jokes around about being a genius all the time, but she knows she has to learn. She is not actually full of herself, she just thinks she can possibly be like that at some point. Even though she has no concrete dreams, she does dream big. Maybe Nene thinks she is better than she actually is, she doesn't think she is John Carmack.

Umiko is her supervisor. So if she turned in what she had, Umiko goes "hey, this works but it is kinda unstable, fix this," then Nene would still learn. She doesn't need Naru to help her learn. So Naru made her do something earlier, next time Naru might make her do something that stresses her out and causes her to fail. Umiko can be plenty enough motivation for Nene.

Point being, Nene does not need Naru to grow.

At this point, I'm really wondering if Naru has horns or a knife in some panels and I've been missing it because for you she's clearly a villain... Nene tries to get advice from her and she gets some good ones, but that could mean that next time she could deliberately make her fail? Wow...
If she only needs Umiko then in the start of the episode when Umiko was too busy to help (You know, being a leader and all) then it was over for Nene not having anyone but herself to get out of that situation.

I think at this point that the issue with Naru has been blown way out of proportion (and I apologize for my part in doing so). Basically, there have been two contrasting interpretations of Naru as a character:

1) Naru is an exemplary employee who is modeling proper work habits to the others.

2) Naru is a bit of a pain in the butt who has yet to get with the Eagle Jump "whatever it takes to make fun games" program.

Pretty much whatever can be said in support of each of those readings has been said. Also some other stuff.

If #1 is correct, eventually the Eagle Jump staff will be depicted as changing their ways in response to Naru highlighting their shortcomings.

If #2 is correct, Naru will be shown to either change her attitude or leave the company.

Naru does have a knife! Do you not see it? She almost cut Nene. Nene was laughing and then Naru turned around said "What was that? I'll cut you, bitch!" to Nene.

Also, Umiko is Nene's leader too, so it is Umiko's failing if she cannot take care of her interns. The interns are the manager's job too. I have experience with managers failing to manage first hand so here I would not have sympathy, even for Umiko... I think... I am pretty sure I would get over it cause it is Umiko.

I think at this point that the issue with Naru has been blown way out of proportion

Even now a lot of people help trying to tune this down, somebody is going to light this up eventually and they often brought toxicity along with them. sigh......

Nene and Naru, 1v1 on Shipment, Crouch + ADS only.

It's really funny to me, knowing a fuller context to all the actions, because most of the discussion amd points being made are being done entirely based on assumption and interpretation and have very little basis in the information as given in the story.

But so as to avoid spoiling anything, I try to only present things as possible alternative interpretations, but some people are so stubbornly stuck to their own made-up facts that they couldnt possibly fathom there being an alternate way to read it.

Again, re-read the chapter. It's obvious you are a little fuzzy. Naru has absolutely no problem with re-doing it a second time after Hajime tells her that being a little late is fine. It's only after she as asked to re-do a third time does she become irritated about it being so late.

Her getting so annoyed at the second rework actually kind of illustrates a problem with her attitude, as that rework was brought about by Momo. The entire reason Naru want to make games. Naru's single goal in life apparently being to make games with Momo, and here Momo is asking if Naru's really okay with it like that and suggesting how it could be better. And Naru's response is just to wish for Momo to shut the fuck up.

I don't think it's wrong for her working for her evaluation. But I DO think it's wrong JUST working for her evaluation and giving a shit about the finished product when she's working for eagle jump - a company that - as far as we know - cares heavily about their games. Your last point however I don't get. Programmes won't do anything not designed by others, as there simply isn't anything - maybe but the game engine itself - that get's programmed without being designed in one way or another. Following your argument, Naru - or any other programmer - would never get credit for anything they're doing.

It's an assumption that they are going to evaluate how well she does her job? You're joking, right?

You're absolutely right. There is only one single, entirely objective skill that you can possibly rate to evaluate how well someone would do a job. There couldn't possibly be alternative aspects of a skillset that certain companies would value more than others. And number of projects would absolutely always trump the size and difficulty of each one.

"But I won't be able to finish it before the final deadline..."

I know you're the TL so I'm just going to assume your memory is just a little fuzzy. So they passed the deadline, which was before Nene's deadline, which was about 1 month, hmm...

I don't think you even rrad what you're arguing with. I said there was never a deadline given by UMIKO, the person evaluating her work. That deadline was from the company, because it has to be done in time to be worked into the game. Umiko herself never said anything about her expectations on how fast she wants Naru to get things done or how many projects she expects Naru to finish.

It's also a complete assumption that there are even going to be more projects for her to work on after this, as they are pretty clearly in the final stretch just before release.

What the hell are you talking about? She is pointing out Hajime's faults, stating why she is under greater pressure. She is telling the truth so that they can work past the issues, hence why they then apologize to each other right after.

Although that pressure is entirely an assumption on her part, as are many of those faults. And she's stating it in a clearly aggressive, condescending fashion. And her apology is clearly flippant and insincere, a mere formality. A "so long as you understand."

The first rework is partly Naru's own fault as well, as she had clear doubts about it herself but didn't say anything until it was finished. You can say that it's not her job, but Umiko has shown she works directly with the designers and makes suggestions about things that might end up getting changed later to try and avoid as much last-minute change as possible.

The second one you can't really blame on Hajime, because she was about to approve it as it was until Momo spoke up. Given a last-minute idea about how to make something a great deal better, and there still being time left to implement it, it is difficult to call either choice in that situation being objectively better. Given the attitude of Hazuki, the top man on the team, toward game making, the choice Hajime went with seems to at least have been the correct one as far as their own company is concerned.

Which again just leads me to the conclusion that she's really not a good match for the company in her present state.

You know, for someone who just argued over someone stating that "no company would ever do this," you seem to be under the impression yourself that every company works the same way.

I really want to say something here when I bought the vol.6 (since July)
But I need to wait for you guys to release that chapter so I can finally able to talk about that topic.
I don't want to unintentionally spoil anything so I guess I going to keep quiet from now on.

last edited at Sep 7, 2017 2:13AM

What I really don't understand about all the Hajime criticism is, how else did you expect the situation to go? Say Momo hadn't spoken up and Hajime had submitted the first rework to Hazuki as is. Hazuki is really sharp about that stuff, so do you really expect she'd have just accepted it? She'd most likely have found it lacking and told them to try a bit more to make it more unique and fun. And then Hajime would have to go and figure out what was missing before she could ask for a rework. It would have caused even bigger delays.

Or would you expect Naru to speak up in the same way against Hazuki that she did against Hajime, asking Hazuki to take responsibility for the delays? Although clearly she wouldn't, because she said nothing when Hazuki demanded even bigger changes at an even later stage.

Unless you're just expecting Hajime to get everything perfectly right the first time she does it. Which is kind of a delusional expectation of someone in a creative field. Not even the head designer with all of the experience can manage that.

Next episode I have a strong feeling that it will be mostly about programing team ultimately Naru and Nene.

Or would you expect Naru to speak up in the same way against Hazuki that she did against Hajime, asking Hazuki to take responsibility for the delays?

Given the resistance Hazuki's probably built towards Umiko's flicks, Naru's fingers would probably break if she tried the same thing.

Her getting so annoyed at the second rework actually kind of illustrates a problem with her attitude, as that rework was brought about by Momo. The entire reason Naru want to make games. Naru's single goal in life apparently being to make games with Momo, and here Momo is asking if Naru's really okay with it like that and suggesting how it could be better. And Naru's response is just to wish for Momo to shut the fuck up.

You keep calling it a problem when all she is doing to trying to stick to the schedule. You act like the schedule is no big deal, that delays cause no problems at all. Umiko's character was introduced to use over being pissed off about errors and delays but when Naru does it it's now a bad thing?

You're absolutely right. There is only one single, entirely objective skill that you can possibly rate to evaluate how well someone would do a job. There couldn't possibly be alternative aspects of a skillset that certain companies would value more than others. And number of projects would absolutely always trump the size and difficulty of each one.

She's a coder, she would be evaluated based on how well she coded. That's just a cold hard fact, the fact that she was able to also manage her team and time well is also a positive that you refuse to acknowledge.

But oh no, she wasn't super nice about all the problems she pointed out? Better fire her! /s

I don't think you even rrad what you're arguing with. I said there was never a deadline given by UMIKO, the person evaluating her work. That deadline was from the company, because it has to be done in time to be worked into the game. Umiko herself never said anything about her expectations on how fast she wants Naru to get things done or how many projects she expects Naru to finish.

She literally says that they will pass the deadline, You can try to twist it all you want, fact is that she was given a deadline that was shorter than a month. And no, obviously it wasn't a deadline based on how long it would take to implement into the game since after being late twice she then had to create several versions for the different areas.

It's also a complete assumption that there are even going to be more projects for her to work on after this, as they are pretty clearly in the final stretch just before release.

what's your definition of clearly? They are no where close to being finished, they barely even announced the game that long ago. Games are announced about a year before release in a lot of cases, for smaller 3rd parties they are announced years before. So where you are getting this idea that they are in the final stretch?

Although that pressure is entirely an assumption on her part, as are many of those faults. And she's stating it in a clearly aggressive, condescending fashion. And her apology is clearly flippant and insincere, a mere formality. A "so long as you understand."

How the hell are you getting a sense of her being aggressive or condescending? She does a proper apology with a bow, you can't even see her face. And during the whole conversation she has a nervous sweat.

The first rework is partly Naru's own fault as well, as she had clear doubts about it herself but didn't say anything until it was finished. You can say that it's not her job, but Umiko has shown she works directly with the designers and makes suggestions about things that might end up getting changed later to try and avoid as much last-minute change as possible.

No, she has not. It has never shown Umiko making design requests or decisions. The more requests would make more spec changes and that would go against her very character as the person who shoots anyone who adds more work onto their load.

The second one you can't really blame on Hajime, because she was about to approve it as it was until Momo spoke up. Given a last-minute idea about how to make something a great deal better, and there still being time left to implement it, it is difficult to call either choice in that situation being objectively better. Given the attitude of Hazuki, the top man on the team, toward game making, the choice Hajime went with seems to at least have been the correct one as far as their own company is concerned.

Yes, you can still blame Hajime because she failed to design it well that it still had obvious faults. All the changes made to the mini-game were suggested by other people, Hajime is clearly failing to put more thought into her game designs.

Which again just leads me to the conclusion that she's really not a good match for the company in her present state.

Again, weird that your logic also applies to Umiko, guess she best start sending out her resume as well.

You know, for someone who just argued over someone stating that "no company would ever do this," you seem to be under the impression yourself that every company works the same way.

Oh, come on, that's not remotely close to what I said. Someone gave an absolute, I said that there are plenty of companies the break that rule so what holds Eagle Jump to that rule? Hell, it's shown that they won't fire someone for being a bit aggressive, Hazuki will forgive them for all their faults as long as they are cute.

What I really don't understand about all the Hajime criticism is, how else did you expect the situation to go? Say Momo hadn't spoken up and Hajime had submitted the first rework to Hazuki as is. Hazuki is really sharp about that stuff, so do you really expect she'd have just accepted it? She'd most likely have found it lacking and told them to try a bit more to make it more unique and fun. And then Hajime would have to go and figure out what was missing before she could ask for a rework. It would have caused even bigger delays.

Are you serious? How do you not see where the Hajime criticism is coming from? The fact that she clearly failed to design the mini-game well in the first place. Again, even all the changes made to it weren't even her own thoughts. She is failing as a game designer which is leading to delays no matter if it's Hazuki or the rest of the team giving suggestions.

Unless you're just expecting Hajime to get everything perfectly right the first time she does it. Which is kind of a delusional expectation of someone in a creative field. Not even the head designer with all of the experience can manage that.

And that's why the other team members will have to have the designers take responsibility when they have to make changes. But I guess Naru asking Hajime to take responsibility is an unforgivable sin. How dare she demand leniency when she has no control over the problems other team members cause?

Wow that post is so freaking damn long. :O And I am still read through all of this. XP

You keep calling it a problem when all she is doing to trying to stick to the schedule. You act like the schedule is no big deal, that delays cause no problems at all. Umiko's character was introduced to use over being pissed off about errors and delays but when Naru does it it's now a bad thing?

Do you know who would have a better idea of the schedule than someone who literally just started there? The person actually in charge of that.

And I've gone over the difference in attitude between Umiko and Naru several times already, so that this point I'm starting to think that you're not even reading things you reply to.

She's a coder, she would be evaluated based on how well she coded. That's just a cold hard fact, the fact that she was able to also manage her team and time well is also a positive that you refuse to acknowledge.

But oh no, she wasn't super nice about all the problems she pointed out? Better fire her! /s

Come on, dude. You can't even be consistent with yourself about what she should be evaluated on. The final outcome of the project shouldn't matter, you say. But then you say she needs to have a certain number of projects completed or she'll fail. But then you say the quality of the code should be all that matters. But then you say speed is most important.

And besides, as has been mentioned multiple times before, she has OFFICIAL WORK ORDERS, as well as a growing amount of code, and the dates she submitted that code for review, that she can clearly show exactly how much work she did and exactly how long it took. Total number of projects finished should be irrelevant compared to how much total work she got done, if you truly believe that all that matters is her code.

Also, what management? The decision was already made and everything was finalized before she blew up. Her criticizing Hajime did nothing to actually speed anything up. And with the aforementioned work orders already showing the cause of the delay, literally the only thing yelling at Hajime achieved was catharsis.

She literally says that they will pass the deadline, You can try to twist it all you want, fact is that she was given a deadline that was shorter than a month. And no, obviously it wasn't a deadline based on how long it would take to implement into the game since after being late twice she then had to create several versions for the different areas.>

Point me to to where "less than a month" is ever mentioned, anywhere. Or how far away the deadline she mentions actually is. And yes, it was pretty clearly a reference to the final deadline for shipping the game, since she uses the term 納期 in Japanese, and not 締め切り. While the latter is standard deadline, the former means the final deadline to ship a product. I know it could have been made clearer in English, but there's only so much space in speech bubbles and it takes more words because there isn't a simple equivalent term differentiating them.

what's your definition of clearly? They are no where close to being finished, they barely even announced the game that long ago. Games are announced about a year before release in a lot of cases, for smaller 3rd parties they are announced years before. So where you are getting this idea that they are in the final stretch?

Uh, even outside of the above note, it's stated in no uncertain terms right here.

Plus the fairly specific release date right here.

Maybe you should stop making assumptions about everything and actually read the series.

How the hell are you getting a sense of her being aggressive or condescending? She does a proper apology with a bow, you can't even see her face. And during the whole conversation she has a nervous sweat.

Pretty much everything about her wording and body language. And the flippant way she talks about it when mentioning it to Umiko later. But I guess we'll have to wait to see how it's animated!

No, she has not. It has never shown Umiko making design requests or decisions. The more requests would make more spec changes and that would go against her very character as the person who shoots anyone who adds more work onto their load.

What's this? She's getting mad at Hazuki over a request for a feature change that she predicted and even suggested to Hazuki beforehand?

What's this? She's dragging Hazuki to the programmer booth to discuss changes?

What's this? She's claiming she could forcefully deal with Hajime's indecisiveness about design?

Seriously, do you even read this series?

Yes, you can still blame Hajime because she failed to design it well that it still had obvious faults. All the changes made to the mini-game were suggested by other people, Hajime is clearly failing to put more thought into her game designs.

If your requirement for success is "getting everything right the first time without any outside help," then pretty much every single employee at the entire company is a failure. Look how many rejected and reworked designs both Aoba and Kou have had. How many bugs end up being found in the programmers' codes. How often the lead designer and head of the entire team herself ends up wanting to fix things. How often the 3D models are shown needing to have errors fixed. Even Umiko outright states that it's unrealistic to expect the design to be perfect and complete from the beginning.

Plus, with the previous design chapter being entirely about encouraging Hajime to accept help from others, as far as the company itself is concerned, she's still not doing a bad job.

Again, weird that your logic also applies to Umiko, guess she best start sending out her resume as well.

It's almost like you haven't actually read any of Umiko's lines!

Look! She's outright saying that it's not the changes themselves that she's mad about!

Look! She's outright saying that it's unrealistic to expect the design to be perfect from the start, and that despite how annoying it can be, she still wants to make the game as good as possible!

Oh, come on, that's not remotely close to what I said. Someone gave an absolute, I said that there are plenty of companies the break that rule so what holds Eagle Jump to that rule? Hell, it's shown that they won't fire someone for being a bit aggressive, Hazuki will forgive them for all their faults as long as they are cute.

All I am saying is that for someone who argued that, you seem to be judging events at Eagle Jump as if it were some other imagined, completely different company, instead of based on what has been shown to be standard practice there.

And that's why the other team members will have to have the designers take responsibility when they have to make changes. But I guess Naru asking Hajime to take responsibility is an unforgivable sin. How dare she demand leniency when she has no control over the problems other team members cause?

As I've stated before, I don't even have a problem with her asking about the deadline. I have a problem with how she went about it.

What are you even claiming she needs to demand leniency from? Her evaluation for employment? I thought her code was all that mattered? Schedule management would be entirely Hajime's job in this situation, and Naru has work orders and code to show the work she did and the time periods she was given.

And again, why, then, don't you claim that she should make same demands of Hazuki, who is asking for even bigger changes even later into the schedule?

Honestly, discussing this seems to be completely futile, since you seem to have read neither the source material nor any of the things you're responding to.