I believe the emotional manipulation thing only works on people who are emotionally unhealthy. But I believe Sumin was not that damaged though; her going back to Seju was her getting revenge on Seju too. She knew what she was doing, and she chose to do it for her own satisfaction/benefits.

The day of the 10th years death anniversary of her parents, she was trying to make a move on Sungji using her sad story. She has been purposely hurting Seju for 10 years. She met moleguy and talked back to him just fine. Emotionally unhealthy her ass.

What have proved that she is emotionally/mentally unhealthy?

You shouldn't have written any serious answer that would make you feel bad about the discussion.

I feel like you either like Sumin so much that you don't want to believe that she could have something wrong with her or you like Seju so much that you don't want her to be a bad guy. If you dislike both then i will be confused.

I don't like any of them, and I don't dislike any of them either. My opinions about wdtfs characters change over time according to how their characters are developed. I don't have any unchangeable impression/opinion about them, I don't generalize them and say that those are proofs, neither I ever want to idealize them inyo my personal preferences. It's not because I want Sumin to be emotionally/mentally healthy because I like her so much, but Sumin way of living has proved that she is emotionally/mentally healthy imo. Neither I like Seju so much that I wish her not to be a bad person. She is not a bad person imo. Seeing that you would think of people that way makes me believe that that is how you have judged the characters so far.

unlike superheroes movies, they do not have to be protagonist vs. antagonist .. (which I am very grateful for !!)
I read your discussion regarding whether Seju planned the situation in the end of arc 2..
Seju was freaking surprised when Sumin told her she loved her .. but not at all when she said she loved Sungji.. yet she wanted to break up with Seju bcz she loved her too (now, we talk about emotional damage !.. it is like break up pain multiplied by 15)

the whole dialogue is heart breaking.. a person who was never been loved by anyone but by Sumin.. never opened up to anyone but her.. after 17 years of knowing someone you can not just let them go.
Seju would prefers to be hated and even abused emotionally rather than being loved yet not being with Sumin ..

Sumin being manipulated .. hehehehe! well, I disagree, the girl knew what she was doing.
the girl brought up a 10 years cheating incident when she was the one slept with +30 girls during all that time ..
yeah, Sumin is so poor and damaged (my ASS!!)

while in my age and experiences I can understand totally Seju and Sumin being unable to let go and the nature of their dysfunctional relationship.. yet I can not understand why Sungji is so attached to Sumin when Sumin did not even treat her right till she caught her cheating!.. I know it all started as a physical attraction .. but then it is a lot of shit to put up with.. standing agains the president of the company u work in for the manager of your team who is 10 years older than you etc. what the hell !

last edited at Mar 14, 2017 5:06AM

I know I must be wrong about something, many things.

Dawoon is a "putting her in or taking her out doesn't make a difference" kind of character imo.

Points for Sumin being not emotionally/mentally healthy are:
1) she closed herself off, she's not showing her vulnerable side to anyone, efen Seju (except of that one time after she got beaten by redhed's fiance and came over to Seju - broken and dead tired - she said she's numb and empty ----> Seju ENJOYED IT)
**that is until Sungji came to her life - she let her see her vulnerable before they were a couple
2) even when she's a bottom, she's still the service and ends up dead tired without a release - at least for the past 10 years she never let anyone do it for her
**that is until Sungji came to her life
3) she forgot what having fun is
***that is until Sungji reminded her
4) she wanted someone to hold onto her (hint: now she wants someone to hold onto - Sungji)
5) she stopped understanding other people to the point she freaked out when she thought Sungji is angry and she went to her hometown in the middle of the night, desperate enough to let the guy use a radio to announce she's waiting for "the person who knows her"
6) she puked after a strap-on sex
7) she tried to see if Sungji is just about sex by using sad stories (and end up by being reminded there are still people with good hearts who simply wants to be there for you when you're not well)
8) she stopped understanding her own feelings to the point in which she didn't know if it's ok for her to like Sungji and if she's allowed to say that she does

Points for Seju being manipulative:
1) she was pushing Sumin and Sungji to get together
2) the moment she saw Sumin's relationship with Sungji is going to be deep, she started planting seeds by for example telling Sungji Sumin had lots of women and she'll never love her
3) she enjoyed Sumin's broken and beaten state after her break up with the redhead, which to me is a prove she was the one who relvealed the truth to the redhead's fiance
4) she was constantly saying she'll get Sumin back
5) quote of her thoughts after Sumin came to her beaten up and broken "That was all I wanted. To be able to feel these feelings. I wish things would be more difficult for you. That way every time you come to me, you'll also hate me."
6) quote in the elevator after Sungji saw her with Sumin: "If you were trying to shake me off, you should've done it quicker. I'm going to get you back.""
7) she made sure Sungji will see them together
8) she made it hard for Sumin to refuse to sleep with her (it was actually kind of forceful, she pushed her many times) and said "just once let me do what I want" (the truth is she was always doing whatever she wanted, she just lost the person who she wanted first by cheating and then, her own brother made sure Sumin would be unable to go back to her for good)

You say Sumin slept with 30 girls in the past 10 years? Yeah, so what? She broke up with Seju, she was allowed to do so. She came back to Seju? Yeah, and THIS was a mistake, but Seju liked it, enjoyed it and plotted how to get her back for good along with making Sumin hate her more and more because she enjoyed seeing Sumin in pain - she's most responsive when she's broken. I bet she hated to see Sumin getting more and more back to who she used to be, thanks to Sungji. That had to hurt a lot, more than anything else in the past 10 years. Sumin was lucky she found a person who was able to make her move on. Not to mention, Seju did pushed their buttons. She helped them get together. She made a mistake and couldn't stand it - she once again burned herself. And I think it's all because she stopped knowing Sumin. She knew her years back, when they were still together, but the moment Sumin had shut herself everything changed. Sumin became an empty shell of who she used to be, difficult to read because the walls she had built around herself. Add clueless and lack of perceptive and you end up with a person who's like a book written in an alien language.

As I said many times, non Seju or Sumin are angels, they both had hurt each other, but no matter how much I re-read the manga, I see Seju's actions as worse. It doesn't mean I want her to end up hurt. I really, trully, want her to find happiness too. She often ends up as a victim of her own actions and she's too stubborn to admit it and stop it. She's closed too, she has her own insecurities as well. And there's no one who'd push her button yet - maybe Nami in the future, which I'd like very much.

well, I agree on the most of it..

I agree that all Sumin cluelessness is due to her not wanting to deal with emotions.
the point when she slept with 30+ women, yes she can do what she liked, but HOW could she still have the nerve to bring Seju's sleeping with the bartender (and I still till today hesitate they she was aware of what had happened that night - the door was left open, and the whole matter is just creepy.. what did the guy say when Sumin came in ?)

also, her pushing Sumin down was not to beg for sex, the whole scene is intense, a person who loved her 17 years ago and never called her like that or said that she loved her for a whole 10 years and yet wanted to leave her!!.. Sumin is not that weak.. she walked to the bedroom by her own.. I believe Seju did not carry her hehehehe !

well, Sumin is manipulative too, and in her words she said ( so I kept her around and tormented her as much as I liked )
she had no respect to Seju's feelings but just scared of losing her at the same time .. still loved her and scared of loving her at the same time ( how messed up is that.. !)

Seju HAD to deal the way she dealt with Sumin to some extent, she could not even dare to tell Sumin how she felt nor demand Sumin care whenever she needed her as much as Sumin were always able to come back to Seju at anytime.. of course she will be scared when it gets deep with Sungji giving that Seju's situation is getting worse and lonelier in this world now her father is dying. her way was the only way she knew to keep taking care of Sumin.

have you noticed that Sungji was not allowed to touch Sumin's ass without asking for permission until she was in a very weak position to refuse anything ?!
the whole cheating thing made Sumin in a weaker position in her relationship with Sungji.. could you imagine Sungji asking to live together with Sumin before she was caught ?! guilt my friends can make her less eager to refuse

interestingly though, Asians believe in the blood type effect on personality and I believe Team Gaji revealed this information as a way to map the three personalities.

.....
( I puked after strap-on, it makes me stress out every time I see that chapter agh..).. could it be that Sumin and I are so organic in that matter hehehe

last edited at Mar 14, 2017 1:34PM

2) even when she's a bottom, she's still the service and ends up dead tired without a release - at least for the past 10 years she never let anyone do it for her
***that is until Sungji came to her life

This is new to me. Was it presented in the manhwa?

3) she forgot what having fun is
***that is until Sungji reminded her

Oh!

5) she stopped understanding other people to the point she freaked out when she thought Sungji is angry and she went to her hometown in the middle of the night, desperate enough to let the guy use a radio to announce she's waiting for "the person who knows her"

We don't know if she ever used to understand other people or not though.

6) she puked after a strap-on sex

There was this scene too? And how does puking or not have anything to do with emotions? Did she not puked at all before she broke up with Seju? So, after she can move on with Sungji, i.e, goes back to being emotionally healthy, she will not puke after a strap-on sex anymore?

last edited at Mar 14, 2017 2:10PM

Izz although I don't doubt Seju has done manipulation to Sumin, I think you are reading way too much into turning everything single thing going wrong with Sumin into Seju's fault.

You are wrong that she made it difficult for Sumin not to sleep with her. Sumin wanted to sleep with her, and she wasn't physically pushed whatsoever. Stop blaming this to Seju. Seju didnt rape her or anything. Sumin willingly participated as well. They are both adults and fully aware of their actions.
In fact, I think what Sumin did was worse than Seju for two main reasons. She was the one in a relationship and the cheater, and also she was been cheated before and knew how awful that was. She kept on beating Seju for cheating on her for ten years, yet she still chose to cheat herself too. Hypocritical much.

And we still don't have any proof that Seju planned for Sungji to catch them together. Even if she wanted to, she couldn't be sure that Sumin would agree to do it with her beforehand. And also she didn't know Sumin wanted to resign when she said they need to talk, so to me it seemed more like a whim of the moment to ask that from Sumin. If she really had a great plan to destroy their relationship, wouldn't she do more than just that after the cheating situation? She should ay least fire Sungji from the company, or force Sumin to move out of her house. Yet, she said she would give the house free for Sumin and Sungji to live together. If she was such a manipulator, she would def not make it so easy for Sumin to live happily with her gf.

You know, the truth is Sumin wasn't supposed to be a shortie though, it's all Seju's fault for buying Sumin everything but milk.

sometimes, Seju even try to protect Sumin from her own family, if she was that crazy disparate, she would have even pushed further for her father's plan .. but that does not count bcz as u said .. she did not give Sumin enough calcium to get taller hehehe

last edited at Mar 14, 2017 5:49PM

Just curious, what's the issue being a top or a bottom between lesbians? I came across the discussion Sumin being a Top. Does she get satisfied giving and being on top?

last edited at Mar 15, 2017 5:30AM

oh man, we're having so much fun overanalyzing this manhwa xD

I'll join the party. I don't know how can anyone think that Seju manipulated Sumin to stay with her or even sleep with her. when who the hell came running back after they broke up? isn't it Sumin?! and that's after Seju's brother beat her up. I mean, who the f*ck in their right mind would go back to their ex, after she was beaten up so badly by one of her family members?! what the f*ck? if anything I'll be traumatized to even be involved with them.

but the question is, what is Sumin's intention when she goes back to Seju? Sumin contradicts herself in here. she said she wanted to stay with Seju because she fears, she will commit suicide. but at the same time, she also have an intention to emotionally torture her and give her hope that they will be back together and then just leave her when she found someone else which will eventually push Seju to also kill herself. Sumin is just digging the wounds of their relationship deeper when she came back to Seju and delaying the inevitable that they need to be away from each other to heal themselves,

imo, Seju was never evil or a master manipulator. if anything she's letting Sumin do everything she wants. Seju is not stupid. she is aware that the old them will never be back but she love Sumin too much that she's willing to be reduced as Sumin's "forever rebound girl" and this is what I think she meant, when she said "no matter how long it takes, you'll be mine again" she's not forcing herself to Sumin because she knows, she is the one who cheated and she's holding so hard into this thread of hope that Sumin has given her when she came running back to her but their relationship is never going to work. Seju is trying while Sumin wants to move on from her but cling into her until she found someone else lol Sumin is so f*cking cruel to Seju.

last edited at Mar 15, 2017 6:19AM

We should probably stop going around in circles now haha. Bring on the next episode.

we just can't stop debating lol the manhwa is nearing to its end anyway. once this manhwa ends almost no one is going to talk about this and this will be a ghost thread.

last edited at Mar 15, 2017 6:28AM

We should probably stop going around in circles now haha. Bring on the next episode.

we just can't stop debating lol the manhwa is nearing to its end anyway. once this manhwa ends almost no one is going to talk about this and this will be a ghost thread.

In my case, I will most likely not come to dynasty again, I think, since I only follow this one thread.

I hope it ends soon without any delay again so that we can all stop speculating and just accept the ending of the story. It's kinda tiring and the struggle of fangirling a character is real lol

Why not?! I wonder how many fans would flip their tables!!! Lol

last edited at Mar 15, 2017 7:22AM

sia ue
yeah. I got you. there's tons of yuri manga/manhwa but only few have dedicated fanbase and it's hard to keep some thread active because manga in particular has longer release dates compared to manhwa.

as a yuri fan and even though I'm not the biggest fan of wdtfs. I feel grateful to successful series like this because it does help the yuri genre to be more popular and recognized. and maybe it will urge or inspire other artist to create more yuri content.

last edited at Mar 15, 2017 8:39AM

Just curious, what's the issue being a top or a bottom between lesbians? I came across the discussion Sumin being a Top. Does she get satisfied giving and being on top?

I know it makes no sense to anyone who is not a woman who likes woman

Even if a lesbian is a top she can get off by pleasuring the partner (it sounds weird I know but I also know what I am talking about).. top's fingers or mouth can not directly derive the orgasm for the top but feeling the pleasure resulted from ur actions on the other woman is extreemly pleasurable . (Its addictive I must say hehhe)

Why some are more top than others?
Everyone is different but it is a vulanrable, intimate and a very dominated situation to be topped
.. a top would have to build a strong trust and emotional bound to be in that situation.

Of course that does not apply to everyone.
But applies on the one case you are asking about: Sumin and I believe Nammi as well

See, Sumin allowed only Seju and lately Sungji (after hesitation ) to top her.

last edited at Mar 15, 2017 9:46AM

Just curious, what's the issue being a top or a bottom between lesbians? I came across the discussion Sumin being a Top. Does she get satisfied giving and being on top?

I know it makes no sense to anyone who is not a woman who likes woman

Even if a lesbian is a top she can get off by pleasuring the partner (it sounds weird I know but I also know what I am talking about).. top's fingers or mouth can not directly derive the orgasm for the top but feeling the pleasure resulted from ur actions on the other woman is extreemly pleasurable . (Its addictive I must say hehhe)

Why some are more top than others?
Everyone is different but it is a vulanrable, intimate and a very dominated situation to be topped
.. a top would have to build a strong trust and emotional bound to be in that situation.

Of course that does not apply to everyone.
But applies on the one case you are asking about: Sumin and I believe Nammi as well

See, Sumin allowed only Seju and lately Sungji (after hesitation ) to top her.

Thanks! This is quite informative. It's not weird at all, i believe you. I just thought it's the same for straight people spontaneously being top or bottom anytime.
It does make sense since Sumin was always on top almost all the time and I wonder how does she cum when she is always on top.

Sumin, was she in pain or pleasure when Sungji topped her? Did she cum? I wasn't sure, since she begged her to stop.

last edited at Mar 15, 2017 11:45AM

Thanks! This is quite informative. It's not weird at all, i believe you. I just thought it's the same for straight people spontaneously being top or bottom.
It does make sense since Sumin was always on top almost all the time and I wonder how does she cum when she is always on top.

Sumin, was she in pain or pleasure when Sungji topped her? Did she cum? I wasn't sure, since she begged her to stop.

Sometimes, a woman can cum without being touched, by only pleasuring the other lady.. and sometime the joy itself suffice.

Ur last question is what I myself think, it was painful not pleasurable.. it does not look like the usual panting and moans that the creaters make to illustrate pleasure ..
Why is that.. I have no idea.. but maybe bcz of something Sungji said .. or her being a rocky in that aspect
I remember Sungji said: (if I could engrave my name on you I would ).. for someone with a scar that only reminds her of an ex and the associated physical and emotional pain, that comment is enough to drag her out of the mood+ Sumin facial expression.. I can only think about pain not pleasure.
Or was it the change in the power dynamics so suddenly?..mmm
But this is just my interpretation.

last edited at Mar 15, 2017 12:04PM

Thanks! This is quite informative. It's not weird at all, i believe you. I just thought it's the same for straight people spontaneously being top or bottom.
It does make sense since Sumin was always on top almost all the time and I wonder how does she cum when she is always on top.

Sumin, was she in pain or pleasure when Sungji topped her? Did she cum? I wasn't sure, since she begged her to stop.

Sometimes, a woman can cum without being touched, by only pleasuring the other lady.. and sometime the joy itself suffice.

Ur last question is what I myself think, it was painful not pleasurable.. it does not look like the usual panting and moans that the creaters make to illustrate pleasure ..

I just re-read that chapter and yeah i guess its not the usual and the facial expression is a bit off.

Why is that.. I have no idea.. but maybe bcz of something Sungji said .. or her being a rocky in that aspect
I remember Sungji said: (if I could engrave my name on you I would ).. for someone with a scar that only reminds her of an ex and the associated physical and emotional pain, that comment is enough to drag her out of the mood+ Sumin facial expression.. I can only think about pain not pleasure.
Or was it the change in the power dynamics so suddenly?..mmm
But this is just my interpretation.

Speaking of change in power dynamics, i wonder if we get to see more of that. And i was never sure who said this line "things hanve changed"

The recent broadcast of team gaji, i haven't found any online, even in korean version.( I have a korean friend so i thought he could translate) but..none

last edited at Mar 15, 2017 12:36PM

Thanks! This is quite informative. It's not weird at all, i believe you. I just thought it's the same for straight people spontaneously being top or bottom.
It does make sense since Sumin was always on top almost all the time and I wonder how does she cum when she is always on top.

Sumin, was she in pain or pleasure when Sungji topped her? Did she cum? I wasn't sure, since she begged her to stop.

Sometimes, a woman can cum without being touched, by only pleasuring the other lady.. and sometime the joy itself suffice.

Ur last question is what I myself think, it was painful not pleasurable.. it does not look like the usual panting and moans that the creaters make to illustrate pleasure ..
Why is that.. I have no idea.. but maybe bcz of something Sungji said .. or her being a rocky in that aspect
I remember Sungji said: (if I could engrave my name on you I would ).. for someone with a scar that only reminds her of an ex and the associated physical and emotional pain, that comment is enough to drag her out of the mood+ Sumin facial expression.. I can only think about pain not pleasure.
Or was it the change in the power dynamics so suddenly?..mmm
But this is just my interpretation.

Sumin was dead tired after what she did to Sungji, but I'm sure she came and end up with oversex state, which can be both satisfying and painful and since she's usually the top or service bottom, she couldn't stand being in such state.