That was a reasonable post.

Non-canon and crack aren't the same thing of course.

We'd barely have any yuri fan works if that were the case.

last edited at Sep 19, 2016 9:12PM

Non-canon and crack aren't the same thing of course.

We'd barely have any yuri fan works if that were the case.

Crack is oftenly addressed to pairings that involve characters who aren't likely to be in a romantic relationship.
It's why only about a minority produce KyouMami content. Pixiv results are nowhere close to the towering MadoHomu & KyouSaya.

last edited at Sep 19, 2016 9:41PM

Non-canon and crack aren't the same thing of course.

We'd barely have any yuri fan works if that were the case.

Crack is oftenly addressed to pairings that involve characters who aren't likely to be in a romantic relationship.
It's why only about a minority produce KyouMami content. Pixiv results are nowhere close to the towering MadoHomu & KyouSaya.

I don't want to get into a petty argument or anything, but I'd say that calling a ship a crack pairing means that it's completely insane and has no chance of ever happening. I mean, it's true that Kyouko x Mami is never going to happen, but I still think it has a better chance of happening compared to something completely insane like... Kyubey x Homura, for instance.

Edit: Also, props to the mods for deleting that rant directly above me minutes after it was posted! All of you people always do great work.

last edited at Sep 19, 2016 10:20PM

Non-canon and crack aren't the same thing of course.

We'd barely have any yuri fan works if that were the case.

Crack is oftenly addressed to pairings that involve characters who aren't likely to be in a romantic relationship.
It's why only about a minority produce KyouMami content. Pixiv results are nowhere close to the towering MadoHomu & KyouSaya.

I don't want to get into a petty argument or anything, but I'd say that calling a ship a crack pairing means that it's completely insane and has no chance of ever happening. I mean, it's true that Kyouko x Mami is never going to happen, but I still think it has a better chance of happening compared to something completely insane like... Kyubey x Homura, for instance.

Yeah, if we take Love Live as an example, any combination of the nine girls is absolutely fine, but none of them are canon since none are said to be dating in the series. But say, Rin x Principal Minami would be crack because seriously wtf? Crack ships are the ones you have to bend over backwards twice, with a twist, in order to justify.

@Minutoh
Absurd crack content like Rorschach/Ryoko Asakura is a whole 'nother level, sure. But crack is still crack.

Toshi posted:

@Minutoh
Absurd crack content like Rorschach/Ryoko Asakura is a whole 'nother level, sure. But crack is still crack.

Who cares? There is 2 way to ship. Who had chemistry in series and which characters you like/think would fit together. There is no rules to shipping. Also news flash, the ships exist in the first place because there was no confirm canon ones. So getting all bend over it and correcting people what is "canon" and what is not, is just being a ass. Neither paring is canon in Madoka. They never confessed or were confirmed to be pairs. As far as we know they all are really good/strong friends. Just let people have fun and image what they want. As long as it is cute, I honestly don't see any reason to complain. If you prefer different ship, good for you, but there is no point going around telling people what they can and can't like.

Minutoh posted:

but I still think it has a better chance of happening compared to something completely insane like... Kyubey x Homura, for instance.

Thanks for idea. I need to get to my QB x Homura doujin ;P

last edited at Sep 19, 2016 11:56PM

@Nevri
Guess I won't stop replying here anytime soon.
Who cares? People who can't stand false info.
Look, all I am doing is correcting what is canon using facts. The posts above are not harming anyone nor telling people to quit enjoying this. I mentioned it before that you can interpret relationships however you like, I don't care. But don't go around spreading false info as if they were factual.
Sorry if someone having a reasonable civil discussion on helping people understand the franchise comes off as an asshole to you.
Also, there doesn't have to be a confession to confirm strong feelings of affection. Both pairs Madoka & Homura, Kyouko & Sayaka share affections from what the story portrays.

Also news flash, the ships exist in the first place because there was no confirm canon ones.

They exist because people take interest in alternatives. It isn't the best thing to do but it happens. There's no stopping it.

last edited at Sep 20, 2016 12:44AM

Technically speaking, the entire TV series isn't really canon either cos of all of the history rewriting shiznit Madoka and Homura have collectively done.
Either way, canon isn't strictly determined by a single writer, particularly when it comes to TV/film based franchises, which could have different writers for each installment or tie-in material. Granted there is spin-off material that is obviously non-canon or has no bearing on the main canon (eg. Homura's Revenge, the beach drama CD, etc.) but the backstory involving Mami and Kyouko's meeting and falling out has been mentioned in at least three different pieces of official media (including the PSP game that Urobuchi himself did writing for) and takes place prior to the loop points of Homura's time travel (ie. it has already happened in every pre-Madokami timeline at the least).
At the very least, it's canon that Mami and Kyouko have some form of history together purely from what little Kyouko says about her in the series. The extra material just expands upon it and ties it in with Kyouko's father issues.

Also I find it sad that in order for Mami to be in a relationship that isn't considered crack, she either has to be paired with a ten year old or be alone forever. Also OL-san, but we're very unlikely to see that outside of Ayane's stuff

Toshi posted:

The posts above are not harming anyone nor telling people to quit enjoying this.

Toshi posted:

Crack content is pretty rare. That's a good thing; the less there is, the better.

"Crack content is bad so it is good there is not much of it and it should stay this way." Surely doesn't sound mean to people who actually enjoy it, but you are not denying their right to enjoy it, right? You only tell them "truth" that this paring shouldn't exist, because you don't like it.

Toshi posted:

Sorry if someone having a reasonable civil discussion on helping people understand the franchise comes off as an asshole to you.

Toshi posted:

Crack content is pretty rare. That's a good thing; the less there is, the better.

Give it a rest, please.

Only re-posting my original comment. Won't be hearing anything else from me in this forum.

"I'm just going to repeat myself and you won't change my mind." Reasonable civil discussion at its finest.

Toshi posted:

Who cares? People who can't stand false info.
Look, all I am doing is correcting what is canon using facts.

And what facts you have here?

Toshi posted:

Both The Different Story & Farewell Story (CD3) are official content.

Here you are. In the first freaking sentence you admit it is official part of franchise.

Toshi posted:

But are not actual canon material but brushed aside as "side content".

By who? Creators or you? Show me where anyone from "staff" confirms or denies it being canon. And even if it is "side content" that doesn't mean anything. Side content can still be canon. Stuff like database or tie-ins etc. are side content but they are often considered canon because they are supposed to fill the blanks and give bonus information about stuff that didn't fit/have place in main story.

Toshi posted:

In fact, the script for CD3 was written by: http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Masaki_Hiramatsu who also wrote TDS & adapted CD3 on the first volume. He's not apart of the staff.

Or maybe he is? How do you know? Even if he didn't take part in original series, it doesn't mean they couldn't hire him later and made him part of the staff. Do you have any idea how making anime (or anything in general) works? There are episodes or sequels made by completely different people than original team or whatever, but it still counts, because it is all made by the same company or supervised by same people. Spin-offs of mangas are often handled by different artist than "original", but that doesn't mean they are no part of it. Unless it is completely separate thing, even if script is written by someone else, it is checked and accepted by people responsible for franchise. Again you are just assuming things without showing any prove what you are saying is true. We are just supposed to believe your word. Find me official statement on what is and isn't canon in Madoka universe and then you can go around and tell people that you have all facts and they all are wrong.

Toshi posted:

Side material such as the spin-off, CD, PSP, etc. That support a past relationship between Kyouko & Mami are all portrayed platonic familial love.

Toshi posted:

Also, there doesn't have to be a confession to confirm strong feelings of affection. Both pairs Madoka & Homura, Kyouko & Sayaka share affections from what the story portrays.

I can say exactly same thing. Kyouko x Mami portrayed in spin-offs are shown to share affection or from what the main story portrays, it shows a strong friendship between magical girls and how friends help each other and how friendship is important in your life. Pick your poison.

Toshi posted:

Also news flash, the ships exist in the first place because there was no confirm canon ones.

They exist because people take interest in alternatives. It isn't the best thing to do but it happens. There's no stopping it.

Wow, no. Ships literally exist because there were anime that had a lot guys/girls and people started to ship them. That was it. That is why it happens in anime where there are no canon ships. Sure someone can ignore them, but usually when we have confirmed couple(s) people just roll with it. So no, it isn't alternatives to "canon" ships. That is just different people prefer different stuff. And again you tell what is and isn't wrong. So much for posts that are not meant to harm or attack anyone, yet you constantly push your opinion on shipping as the right one.

EDIT/ Gj on ninja'ing me Goggled Anon

last edited at Sep 20, 2016 8:43AM

@Nevri

"Crack content is bad so it is good there is not much of it and it should stay this way." Surely doesn't sound mean to people who actually enjoy it, but you are not denying their right to enjoy it, right? You only tell them "truth" that this paring shouldn't exist, because you don't like it.

It's not "what I don't like", it's about how the character feels. Kyouko has strong affections for Sayaka & only views Mami as a friend/sister figure. That's why "romantic" KyouMami shouldn't exist. It removes Kyouko's feelings meaning it degrades her character. BUT regardless, I can't stop shippers from enjoying what they take interest in. It's up to themselves to decide what they enjoy.
This probably does offend shippers but honestly you can still explore different character dynamics simply platonically.

Here you are. In the first freaking sentence you admit it is official part of franchise.

It being official doesn't mean it's canon. Canon is what's true within the fictional setting. The events of Farewell Story are nowhere mentioned or implied to have happened in the series/movies. Therefore there isn't factual proof that Kyouko & Mami had a past falling out. It is used on separate media like CD's, PSP (I'm aware Urobuchi is involved), spin-offs, etc. And it does make sense to fill in the gaps of Kyouko's past with additional info. Which is why I have no issue with this setting but it's complex with whether canon or non-canon.

By who? Creators or you? Show me where anyone from "staff" confirms or denies it being canon.

Honestly, this one's a stretch to be considered factual. I heard a while back that on some Q&A Urobuchi gave that answer. Take this with a grain of salt because I don't think there's a source for this. So there's a flaw to my statement.

Or maybe he is? How do you know? Even if he didn't take part in original series, it doesn't mean they couldn't hire him later and made him part of the staff.

His only involvement in the franchise is making additional content for Magica Quartet & has no involvement with the series/movies.

Wow, no. Ships literally exist because there were anime that had a lot guys/girls and people started to ship them. That was it.

Literally what I said: "people take interest in alternatives".

That is why it happens in anime where there are no canon ships.

Even series with endgame canon pairs still have crack content. Forgive me but this is honestly a stupid statement.
Canon romantic affections also exist in MadoHomu & KyouSaya.

Sure someone can ignore them, but usually when we have confirmed couple(s) people just roll with it.

Most people do role with the official pairings in Madoka. That's why both MadoHomu & KyouSaya have towering results on Pixiv. Any other pair fails to reach close to their length. Reason why only a minority produce crack content. Really says something about the yuri demographic of the Madoka community.

last edited at Sep 20, 2016 12:51PM

You still seem to be defining "crack" as non-primary ships, which is ridiculous. When the term came into use in the first place, it was about extremely unlikely ships, stuff from way out of left field.

Again, in Madoka anyone paired with Kyuubey or Walpurgis would be a crack ship. KyoMami is nothing more than non-OTP.

Indeed. I think "niche ships" would be a more appropriate term.

You still seem to be defining "crack" as non-primary ships, which is ridiculous. When the term came into use in the first place, it was about extremely unlikely ships, stuff from way out of left field.

Again, in Madoka anyone paired with Kyuubey or Walpurgis would be a crack ship. KyoMami is nothing more than non-OTP.

Well I said above it's not absurd crack. But The term is oftenly used to define pairs that are alternative to canon.
Like IchiRuki for example: the two shared a strong bond throughout the story; but in the end, both charcaters were wed to their childhood friends. Meaning a romance between Ichigo & Rukia can only be crack because they didn't see one another romantically.
Make sense? Sorry for using Bleach as an example but it's the recent case I could find. With established endgame pairings.

last edited at Sep 20, 2016 1:29PM

Like IchiRuki for example: the two shared a strong bond throughout the story; but in the end, both charcaters were wed to their childhood friends. Meaning a romance between Ichigo & Rukia can only be crack because they didn't see one another romantically.

You can't really call that crack though since pretty much everyone (in the hetship Bleach community) had been shipping them. Not becoming canon does not automatically make something crack.

Dear sane people, can't we just ignore ████ people that take the fictional love lives of fictional characters too seriously and just enjoy cute yuri?

Like IchiRuki for example: the two shared a strong bond throughout the story; but in the end, both charcaters were wed to their childhood friends. Meaning a romance between Ichigo & Rukia can only be crack because they didn't see one another romantically.

You can't really call that crack though since pretty much everyone (in the hetship Bleach community) had been shipping them. Not becoming canon does not automatically make something crack.

I assume it's considered crack now because both characters are now involved in relationships.

last edited at Sep 20, 2016 2:25PM

Toshi I'm beginning to think your definition of "crack" is anything but widespread, and is largely limited to you and a handful of others. "Absurd" is the reason it's called crack, as in "you have to be on crack to think of something this wild". Think John K. Peta levels of insane. The term is used in similar ways outside fandom too, in the same way.

Are we going to say that the girls in Hibike! Euphonium are crack because there's a canon het endgame? Of course not. It may be "non-canon", as most ships are (literally all Touhou ships for instance) or even "non-fanon" (Love Live! ships that aren't NicoMaki for instance, or say...KyoMami) since it doesn't match the popular OTP.

When it comes down to it, KyoSaya is only subtext in the anime, isn't it? Like nobody says anything about being girlfriends, no kissing, no onscreen romance, no confession, right? Guess they're crack too. Shame, I rather liked them.

last edited at Sep 20, 2016 3:27PM

Toshi I'm beginning to think your definition of "crack" is anything but widespread, and is largely limited to you and a handful of others. "Absurd" is the reason it's called crack, as in "you have to be on crack to think of something this wild". Think John K. Peta levels of insane. The term is used in similar ways outside fandom too, in the same way.

Are we going to say that the girls in Hibike! Euphonium are crack because there's a canon het endgame? Of course not. It may be "non-canon", as most ships are (literally all Touhou ships for instance) or even "non-fanon" (Love Live! ships that aren't NicoMaki for instance, or say...KyoMami) since it doesn't match the popular OTP.

When it comes down to it, KyoSaya is only subtext in the anime, isn't it? Like nobody says anything about being girlfriends, no kissing, no onscreen romance, no confession, right? Guess they're crack too. Shame, I rather liked them.

Not all non-canon ships are considered crack.
It's clear there isn't an exact definition for it. It's used in different ways.
Maybe my definition is limited to a small group.
Use it however it was originally used then.
Rorschach x Ryoko Asakura-tier.

I'm tired of this argument.

last edited at Sep 20, 2016 4:52PM

I found a definition that matches with what we both define. This can probably conclude.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crack%20ship

An unusual relationship of any kind of fandom (i.e. books, television shows, movies, ect.) that is unlikely to happen.

This is how I see some people use to define crack.

In fact a person must be on crack to even support such a relationship.

This is where Nezchan was implying the "on crack" bid.
See how it can be used either way? But the latter seems more fitting honestly.

last edited at Sep 20, 2016 5:13PM

Not that Urban Dictionary is a reliable source given how it works, but you see why KyoMami definitely wouldn't qualify. It's based on official materials, and nowhere near the Draco x Frodo level.

Besides, we know Draco x Saruman is OTP.

This is going to upset you but forget what I said, after thinking it over.
It is still crack, because two characters just knowing each other doesn't make the pair not crack. Madoka is not like Love Live!, where the official content actually does ship around its own characters. You keep saying it's not "crack", but you never say why. Homura x Kyuubey is as crazy as Kyouko x Mami, because both have zero chance of happening, the two pairs are the same in the only thing that "supports" them is the characters know each other.

I don't disagree with Draco x Saruman at least.

last edited at Sep 21, 2016 2:00PM

Well this all went enjoyably well. Yay.

I'm just glad you tacitly agree that Draco x Saruman is undeniable (by not denying it). :v

If you are defining crack as "crazy impossible", it's reasonable to think KyouMami applies. Just look at Rebellion, it shows us that no matter the circumstances that main couples will always come together. Kyouko gives up her life for Sayaka time and time again, Sayaka risks her soul to spend time with Kyouko, and Homura does to the literally ends of the universe to protect Madoka. It's crazy to think any other pairs would happen.