Forum › Tanin no Sex o Souzou suru na discussion

So you agree that lesbians are virgins unless they've had sex with men, then? Because that's what the author's idea of virginity is, according to both Pg5 and Pg26.

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

While I did enjoy the story over all, I do agree that it's crappy when people dismiss two women together as less than sex. It's even worse that it's a supposed out and proud lesbian saying it.

joined Jul 8, 2016

Who cares about these two bitches? Let me see the love story between the dad and the teacher.

last edited at Oct 11, 2020 11:35PM

Img_20201212_135003_871
joined Aug 2, 2020

This was great. And no, the author does not have any shitty ideas about virginity. Tsuzuki was teasing the poor girl. Teasing homophobes or until-recently homophobes is top quality fun. You should try it sometime.

Ah yes, of course. Until you end up fucking hurt in a hospital bed, or gasp dead.

Right? "Teasing homophobes is fun", says someone who is probably not homosexual and has clearly never interacted with a homophobe before. Spoiler: it doesn't actually end up with them confessing their love to you and having gay sex the next day.

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Guys, I think the post sex scene happens AFTER the conversation at the end about her being a virgin, and the lighter haired character had an inner monologue earlier about how she had been with men and that being what made her realize she liked women more.

I'm not sure where you guys are getting the "lesbian sex doesn't count" trope, because I'm not seeing it.

I don't think there is any other way to interpret "Not all lesbians are virgins" as lesbian sex doesn't count as sex.

02f9f83f4ac59dc974de6235d43f7023
joined Aug 19, 2019

Who cares about these two bitches? Let me the love story between the dad and the teacher.

For real, I would totally read a BL of those two.

Yokoe
joined Nov 24, 2017

So you agree that lesbians are virgins unless they've had sex with men, then? Because that's what the author's idea of virginity is, according to both Pg5 and Pg26.

Your inability to separate a character from the author writing them is kind of cringe. You have no clue what the author's idea of virginity is, because there isn't a note from the author telling us.

Ah yes, of course. Until you end up fucking hurt in a hospital bed, or gasp dead.

Threats of bodily harm or loss of life? If that's all you can come up with, I'm not particularly impressed.

Your inability to separate a character from the author writing them is kind of cringe. You have no clue what the author's idea of virginity is, because there isn't a note from the author telling us.

This could be used to excuse literally every problematic take ever written in history no matter what it is. If an author establishes a problematic viewpoint of one of their characters, but portrays it as normal viewpoint rather than a problematic one, you can only reasonably infer it's the author's viewpoint. Or, if you want to give the author the most favourable possible interpretation, they don't believe the viewpoint but wrote a comic that normalises that viewpoint in exactly the same way that an author who did believe the viewpoint would. Which is the same end result, and it's the end result that's problematic.

An example of this from this very comic: I don't mind the forced kiss, because the author explicitly labels the character as a petty jerk. It's fine to display characters being jerks if they're properly portrayed as a jerk for their actions. But I do mind the espousing on virginity belonging to men, because both characters advance this viewpoint and this is never contradicted as a bad thing by the author.

last edited at Oct 11, 2020 11:40PM by

Yokoe
joined Nov 24, 2017

I do mind the espousing on virginity belonging to men, because both characters say it and this is never contradicted as a bad viewpoint by the author.

The exchange at the bottom of this page and the top of this page is (in my opinion) a double meaning. Yes, she's saying she's cute, but she's also smirking at the virgin comment. If you don't agree, that's fine, but I think it would be unfair to just claim you know what the author's opinion is regardless of whether my interpretation was what the author intended or not.

I would agree that if it were just that instance, it would be open to interpretation. However, the instance on Pg5 leaves no room for interpretation (and colours my interpretation of Pg26, as a result). There is only one thing "It's not like a lesbian is necessarily a virgin" can mean. Or do you think she's saying that there are people who believe that lesbians never have sex with women, either? Within the context of being pestered to try having sex with men?

last edited at Oct 11, 2020 11:52PM by

Yokoe
joined Nov 24, 2017

I would agree that if it were just that instance, it would be open to interpretation. However, the instance on Pg5 leaves no room for interpretation (and colours my interpretation of Pg26, as a result). There is only one thing "It's not like a lesbian is necessarily a virgin" can mean. Or do you think she's saying that there are people who believe that lesbians never have sex with women, either? Within the context of being pestered to try having sex with men?

I read that part as her disregarding the stereotypical meaning of "virgin." A lesbian can be a virgin if she's never had sex with anyone at all, but once she has, she isn't. That was just my read of it.

Naqpcjy
joined Nov 15, 2017

It's ok, but it really muddles the message when you have a bunch of people being afraid of being sexually harassed by a gay person (a common homophobic belief/fear), and then follow it up with the lesbian character forcibly kissing another woman.

Omochikaeri_thumb
joined Nov 2, 2013

God I hate how japanese people are so obsessed with the man-made up idea of virginity. Putting value on people, especially women with this made up idea is disgusting and misogynistic. In this case homophobic too. I see what the author was trying to do but executed it badly.

I read that part as her disregarding the stereotypical meaning of "virgin." A lesbian can be a virgin if she's never had sex with anyone at all, but once she has, she isn't. That was just my read of it.

To say X is necessarily Y, it means that somebody is assuming X must be Y.
So, if you say lesbians are necessarily virgins, it means somebody is assuming lesbians must be virgins.

But nobody is assuming that lesbians, in general, have never had sex with women. However, there are people who assume that lesbians, in general, have never had sex with men. In fact, that is the exact context of the statement - a man assuming she has not sex with men because she is a lesbian. She chose to use the word "virgin" to describe the assumption she had not had sex with specifically men. Logically following the meaning of the words and context, there is only one possible meaning for "virgin" in this sentence - "somebody who has not had sex with men".

God I hate how japanese people are so obsessed with the man-made up idea of virginity. Putting value on people, especially women with this made up idea is disgusting and misogynistic. In this case homophobic too. I see what the author was trying to do but executed it badly.

As if Westerners aren't even more obsessed with it. You have an entire religion dedicated to obsessing over it, in fact. One that would, historically, literally burn women alive for having sex outside the narrow confines of the religion's dictated purity. This is not a specifically Japanese problem.

last edited at Oct 12, 2020 12:14AM by

joined Apr 6, 2019

Your inability to separate a character from the author writing them is kind of cringe. You have no clue what the author's idea of virginity is, because there isn't a note from the author telling us.

This could be used to excuse literally every problematic take ever written in history no matter what it is.

Exactly.

And this is how you learn to tell yourself: "It's just fiction; I should really just relax."

Charon-sml
joined Feb 14, 2016

There wasn't much here and a lot of what there was utterly sucked.

Exactly.

And this is how you learn to tell yourself: "It's just fiction; I should really just relax."

There's no such thing as "just fiction". Stories are absolutely integral to our existence as humans - we spend our entire life mired in stories, whether in books, television, games, or any other medium, and they influence the way we behave. Seeing a certain behaviour portrayed as normal in countless stories creates a subconscious understanding that that behaviour is normal and okay, when things like non-consent, domestic abuse, homophobia, and, say, outdated ideas of virginity should not be normalised.

Yokoe
joined Nov 24, 2017

Yeah, sorry. I don't agree with that convoluted mess. I've already told you how I interpreted it. At this point, I don't care if you agree or not. It seems like you're trying your damnedest to be outraged at something here, and I'm not going to participate anymore.

Yeah, sorry. I don't agree with that convoluted mess. I've already told you how I interpreted it. At this point, I don't care if you agree or not. It seems like you're trying your damnedest to be outraged at something here, and I'm not going to participate anymore.

"I choose to pretend words don't have meanings"

Okay, feel free to live in your bubble of privilege. At least you're acknowledging that you just don't care about other people.

last edited at Oct 12, 2020 12:20AM by

Omochikaeri_thumb
joined Nov 2, 2013

As if Westerners aren't even more obsessed with it. You have an entire religion dedicated to obsessing over it, in fact. One that would, historically, literally burn women alive for having sex outside the narrow confines of the religion's dictated purity. This is not a specifically Japanese problem.

Implying most westerners actually follow these cult like religions. Many of which religions cover up rampant sexual abuse. Its not about ‘purity’ it is about control. Must be hard being this clueless about the world.

Implying most westerners actually follow these cult like religions. Many of which religions cover up rampant sexual abuse. Its not about ‘purity’ it is about control. Must be hard being this clueless about the world.

"Nobody is Christian, dumbass" is a hot take if I've ever seen one. >70%+ of the population of most Western countries is still religious, and among the Anglosphere the hardline religious have control of the country's government in the US, UK, and Australia. It's actually insane to pretend that it's some bygone thing that's no longer a part or problem of Western culture.

last edited at Oct 12, 2020 12:33AM by

Yokoe
joined Nov 24, 2017

Right? "Teasing homophobes is fun", says someone who is probably not homosexual and has clearly never interacted with a homophobe before. Spoiler: it doesn't actually end up with them confessing their love to you and having gay sex the next day.

I was just going over your comments to make sure you were just a trolling asshole and realized I missed this gem in all of the clutter. This is exactly the reason we need a report function on this forum. You accuse me of not caring how other people feel after this utter garbage? I just hope the mods get wind of this bullshit.

Omochikaeri_thumb
joined Nov 2, 2013

I never said nobody is Christian, dumbass. But Christianity is dying down more because todays youth doesnt want to follow outdated tradition anymore. Meanwhile in places like Japan, they dont follow Christianity but are extremely traditional still. So I really dont know why you brought religion up to begin with, its not on this topic. Eastern countries still place priority on a womens purity, it is a sexist society. So you trying to derail the conversation to talk about b-but westerners do this! Is you telling me not to talk about this important issue.

I was just going over your comments to make sure you were just a trolling asshole and realized I missed this gem in all of the clutter. This is exactly the reason we need a report function on this forum. You accuse me of not caring how other people feel after this utter garbage? I just hope the mods get wind of this bullshit.

How else was I meant to react to somebody flippantly dismissing an issue by saying something as ludicrous as "teasing homophobes is fun, you should try it!"? You seem to have taken the other reply to you on this subject as being a personal threat to you, but their point about ending up in a hospital or dead was that riling up homophobes is dangerous and that's what could happen if they tried your funny suggestion. For you to casually suggest that interacting with homophobes as a gay person is a source of amusement and not fear for one's safety does lead me to believe you have no idea what you're talking about, yes.

I think it's a stretch to say that I'm a troll who doesn't care about others myself on the basis of my hostile reaction to a comment like that.

Eastern countries still place priority on a womens purity, it is a sexist society.

Western countries still place priority on women's "purity". It is a sexist society too.

So I really dont know why you brought religion up to begin with, its not on this topic. So you trying to derail the conversation to talk about b-but westerners do this! Is you telling me not to talk about this important issue.

I am saying it is not a specifically Japanese issue, which you portrayed it as. It gets very, very tiresome reading condescending comments from Westerners about how non-Western countries are awful at this and that when Westerners do the same thing, and often worse. All you had to do was say "this behaviour is sexist and gross" and I'd agree with you - but you framed it in a way that lets you look down on another society as inferior to yours, which is itself gross.

last edited at Oct 12, 2020 1:16AM by

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