There's also the factor of how you approach translating. Do you prioritise being as true to the original as possible? Making sure it sounds like proper English? Or how natural it sounds?

For the sake of an example, let's use the interjection 最低 - saitei. The literal and thus most accurate translation would be "the lowest, however that sounds awkward in English. A good approximate would be "despicable", however that doesn't sound like something a teenager would say to someone, so how about "you suck" instead?
All of these are accurate to a degree, but are different approaches to translating the same thing, and it will vary depending on person (or publisher) which you prefer. Of course, a compromise is generally the best solution, but because English and Japanese are so incredibly different, it isn't always possible to do smoothly (particularly in the case of SFX, which are a headache all on their own). Personally, if I have trouble making a compromise, I usually go for a fairly literal translation, and then work it out with my QC, since it helps a lot to get the perspective of someone who hasn't read the original Japanese.

^ That’s a really good example, and (personally) I think the “you suck” is a very appropriate choice—although depending on the context, “you asshole” or “you slimeball” might also work while staying true to the characterization of a high-schooler.

I think I noticed this issue particularly in Secret of the Princess because several of the (to me) flattening changes concerned my favorite side character, Hirosawa, the snarky but actually sympathetic rival ‘prince.’ A couple of the changes are at least partly cultural, so the effect is a bit like someone cooking a “Japanese-style” dish, but leaving out that final dash of sesame oil, or using not enough and the wrong kind of soy sauce.

But I did wonder about one change (also a favorite in the original)—when the MCs kiss on the rooftop and the schoolgirls watching below all squee wildly, Hirosawa says, “These airheads are really something else . . .”

That fits well with her character of consciously adopting the “school prince” role and “managing” her fans (by walking to the station with them, etc.), in contrast to Fujiwara, who’s mostly unaware of (or at least uncomfortable with) her “celebrity.”

The official says, “That idiot [Fujiwara] . . .showing me up again.”

I’m just not sure how one of those becomes an alternative to the other.

(Again, no criticism intended either way—I’m just curious about a piece of one of my all-time favorite stories. And I hope we’re not going too far off-topic; it’s still “translating Morinaga Milk,” after all.)

I guess, returning to my cooking analogy, the recipe in translation must only include ingredients at least potentially available in the target country (basic localization), but the dish can be prepared so that it completely fits the existing taste preferences of the target country, or it can lean a bit toward showing, “this is more like it would taste in Japan.”

No doubt that first way is how one of my friends from the US Midwest grew up eating spaghetti sauce made from Campbell’s Tomato soup.

last edited at Oct 20, 2018 9:10PM

I don't really have much to add about translation. Pretty much to me the most important part is getting the same experience as native readers. Sure, translation should be as faithful as possible, but it's not always plausible. And in the end, the point is not translating it word for word, but rather getting the same meaning across. So some changes are inevitable, but while wording my differ, the most important thing is to convey the same feeling and intention as original.

And sure, if you try hard enough, you can technically achieve it when doing localization, but personally, removing original culture from work and replacing it with "local" culture is just missing the point. The reason most people read/watch manga/anime in the first place is because we like japanese culture and want to learn more about it. So while I understand some changes are necessary, going out of your way to remove any traces of it doesn't make any sense. What's the point of importing something from different country, different culture, to then warp and change it so it will fit perfectly your country and your culture. It actually feels pretty xenophobic, because it seems like you don't trust people will like anything that isn't familiar to them. Isn't theirs. In fact, you rob people of chance to learn and experience cultures different to theirs. Isn't that the entire point of importing something? It's as if you translated movie or book and you'd remove any culture references etc. Nobody does that, because that would be stupid.

last edited at Oct 20, 2018 1:47PM

^ Nevri,

I think that, in realistic and semi-realistic stories anyway, there’s a bunch of stuff that seems pretty localization-proof (unless somebody’s being totally demented about it), like (as in the case of Hana & Hina) how high schools work, wearing yukata to fireworks festivals, etc. (I mean, I’ve never seen any translation that tried to erase every cultural difference, although I’ve seen them go overboard on things like teen slang and pop culture references.)

But to return to Secret of the Princess and Hirosawa yet again, there’s the hilarious scene in Chapter 5 where Fujiwara, who has become aware of her feelings for Miu, talks to Hirosawa about it. Hirosawa does help her but rags on her all the while, saying sarcastically:

Scanlation: “My heart’s pounding, too . . . To think the day would come when you’d ask for love advice.” (Aside): “Squatting as though to poop.”

Official: “Jeez, even my heart’s pounding. I never thought the day would come when you’d ask me for love advice.” (Aside): “While squatting, no less.”

I don’t know if there’s a specific Japanese term that distinguishes “poop squatting” from regular squatting (although I suspect I’m about to learn), but either way there’s really no localizing the cultural connotations of that aside—that physical posture just doesn’t mean much of anything specific in US culture. So I guess the extreme localization would not be to drop just the poop reference (which when I read the story the first time actually did remind me that Asians often squat in a number of different contexts) but to not translate the line at all.

To support your main point, I find that my everyday vocabulary has been expanded by both Korean dramas (idioms like “Fighting!” or “You worked hard!” can be especially useful when texting) and manga (sometimes I have to prevent myself from doing that schoolgirl “Ehhhh?” in public instead of the usual “Whaaaat?”).

last edited at Oct 20, 2018 8:14PM

Blastaar posted:

^ Nevri,

I think that, in realistic and semi-realistic stories anyway, there’s a bunch of stuff that seems pretty localization-proof

I agree, that going out of your way to erase every single sign of foreign culture might take way more effort than it's worth it and most don't go as far. But then I remember Ace Attorney.

I think that, in realistic and semi-realistic stories anyway, there’s a bunch of stuff that seems pretty localization-proof

I agree, that going out of your way to erase every single sign of foreign culture might take way more effort than it's worth it and most don't go as far. But then I remember Ace Attorney.

Is that the game where the setting is changed to a fictional California that randomly happens to have a whole lot of Japanese people in it?

LOL, just imagining a Hana & Hina localized into being an American town which has totally Nipponized itself as a tourist attraction—the fireworks festival is the county fair, the tanuki are just regular raccoons, the “Stay Hydrated” sign the girls carry around at sports day becomes a local business sponsor’s logo, etc.

And to bring it back on-topic to the story that actually exists— Hana & Hina is yet more proof that Morinaga Milk is an absolute maestro at blending cute comedy, cute but plausible angst, touching sentimentality, and just enough wholesome sexytimes to keep you wanting more—it’s only one panel, but that shot of sweaty Hina-chan’s face in the throes of love is the real deal.

And a lot of yuri mangaka can pull off the beautiful tall model types, but MM-sensei is also quite adept at showing how short, round-ish girls can also be irresistibly sexy.

Blastaar posted:

I think that, in realistic and semi-realistic stories anyway, there’s a bunch of stuff that seems pretty localization-proof

I agree, that going out of your way to erase every single sign of foreign culture might take way more effort than it's worth it and most don't go as far. But then I remember Ace Attorney.

Is that the game where the setting is changed to a fictional California that randomly happens to have a whole lot of Japanese people in it?

That's the one.

Blastaar posted:

I think that, in realistic and semi-realistic stories anyway, there’s a bunch of stuff that seems pretty localization-proof

I agree, that going out of your way to erase every single sign of foreign culture might take way more effort than it's worth it and most don't go as far. But then I remember Ace Attorney.

Is that the game where the setting is changed to a fictional California that randomly happens to have a whole lot of Japanese people in it?

That's the one.

Also, sushi becomes burger

great plot, probably one of my favorites