Also, on the futa thing: I honestly dislike it because I see it as a fetish and not as a representation of trans people.

I've heard a similar argument about yuri as a whole, that "real lesbians" always present themselves as butch and femme, and that yuri manga featuring two especially girly women in a relationship are playing exclusively to straight male fetishes

srs

Also, on the futa thing: I honestly dislike it because I see it as a fetish and not as a representation of trans people.

I've heard a similar argument about yuri as a whole, that "real lesbians" always present themselves as butch and femme, and that yuri manga featuring two especially girly women in a relationship are playing exclusively to straight male fetishes

srs

Huh, is the implication here then that there is a subset of futanari work that isn't basically porn or titillation in some way? Without any NSFW content, and just the sole recognition or mention of the fact that the protagonist or other main characters is a futanari?

last edited at Nov 30, 2016 6:44AM

Also, on the futa thing: I honestly dislike it because I see it as a fetish and not as a representation of trans people.

I've heard a similar argument about yuri as a whole, that "real lesbians" always present themselves as butch and femme, and that yuri manga featuring two especially girly women in a relationship are playing exclusively to straight male fetishes

srs

I've been told the same thing by some of my lesbian friends, that it's icky and gross that I get turned on by watching girls make out and have sex with each other, and that it makes them feel faintly violated.

I actually feel less conflicted about my enjoyment of futanari, because at least in theory I could (and would, if the opportunity presented itself and we liked each other and the chemistry was there) have a romantic relationship (including sex) with a transsexual. I don't fetishize transsexuals like some guys. I just realized several years ago that the things I look at which make a woman attractive to me don't actually include the genitals. Because 99.9% of the time I can't see the genitals at the moment I decide whether or not I find a woman attractive.

Whereas by definition I can't have lesbian sex with a lesbian, so all this yuri stuff I'm reading is just pure voyuerism. (Mind you, the futanari I prefer is futa-on-futa or futa-on-female, so I'm something of a hypocrite here. I am large. I contain multitudes.)

last edited at Nov 30, 2016 9:15AM

Not real sure how this turned out to be a futanari discussion, given the author didn't do futa until well after this piece.

In any case, to address something themusicman500 mentioned, it's disheartening that there are so few butches in yuri in general. But of course femmes are a lot more conventionally pretty, so wider appeal as "default women", whereas being butch is more transgressive, particularly in a culture like Japan.

Besides, the moment you get a character who's even slightly butch (or hell, just slightly less-femme sometimes) the forum fills up with "why are they writing/drawing her as a man!"

Not real sure how this turned out to be a futanari discussion, given the author didn't do futa until well after this piece.

Thread Drift: It's What's For Dinner

Not real sure how this turned out to be a futanari discussion, given the author didn't do futa until well after this piece.

Thread Drift: It's What's For Dinner

Furious About Futa 2: Tokyo Thread Drift

Also, on the futa thing: I honestly dislike it because I see it as a fetish and not as a representation of trans people.

What the dark skin tag?

I don't really like it either. Dark skinned people aren't fetishized in all stories with this tag, but the tag in itself is a fetish, I guess. In my opinion, fetishes are okay as long as they don't objetify people (such as BDSM and stuff like that, whatever works for you), but that's just me. I don't wanna censor others or anything. I'll completely distance myself from lolicon/shota stuff though, thank you very much.

Also, on the futa thing: I honestly dislike it because I see it as a fetish and not as a representation of trans people.

I've heard a similar argument about yuri as a whole, that "real lesbians" always present themselves as butch and femme, and that yuri manga featuring two especially girly women in a relationship are playing exclusively to straight male fetishes

srs

Nah, there is a lot of yuri stories which are drawn for playing exclusively to straight male fetishes, that's a fact, and I complain about that, too. However, you can also find a lot of good yuri stories drawn by women for the enjoyment of other women (I mean, lesbians, bisexuals or whatever people identify with). I usually dislike stuff made by men, but there are exceptions. I do like my porn, but I rather have some sort of plot in it iinstead of just mindless sex and weird fetishes.

LumberingCrane posted:

Huh, is the implication here then that there is a subset of futanari work that isn't basically porn or titillation in some way? Without any NSFW content, and just the sole recognition or mention of the fact that the protagonist or other main characters is a futanari?

Well I can think of at least 1 manga where main girl is a futanari and plot revolves around it and it isn't hentai. I dropped it cos it was a bit cringy in places and i hear the ending was some kind of bs, don't remember why though. But I get your point.

Mari posted:

Also, on the futa thing: I honestly dislike it because I see it as a fetish and not as a representation of trans people.

I seriously don't get where this came from. Futanari=/=trans. I don't know the history, but I get that people who draw/read futa either didn't know how to draw 2 girls having sex and/or needed a way to self insert, wanted 2 cute girls instead of girl and guy, but still wanted a het action or for some girls apparently they prefer penetration with penis compare to toys. So all of this is a ways to make people enjoy porn more and isn't in any way meant to represent trans people. In fact it is far from it, since futanari by definition has penis and pussy. I'm perfectly fine with hentai or w/e having a trans character, but I really dislike futanari. So like, it is hard to deny it is a fetish, just not a way to fetishize trans people.

Nezchan posted:

In any case, to address something themusicman500 mentioned, it's disheartening that there are so few butches in yuri in general. But of course femmes are a lot more conventionally pretty, so wider appeal as "default women", whereas being butch is more transgressive, particularly in a culture like Japan.

I'm not particularly sad about it. While I don't mind tomboys etc. when they are characters, not stereotypes, I do prefer my girls girly, so japanese preferred "default women" works perfectly for me. Actually I like it much more because one of reasons I like yuri so much more over het and yaoi is that it does't force set roles and expectations on each partner and is much more fluid in this aspect, making it much more realistic to me.

last edited at Nov 30, 2016 1:29PM

Mari posted:

Also, on the futa thing: I honestly dislike it because I see it as a fetish and not as a representation of trans people.

I seriously don't get where this came from. Futanari=/=trans. I don't know the history, but I get that people who draw/read futa either didn't know how to draw 2 girls having sex and/or needed a way to self insert, wanted 2 cute girls instead of girl and guy, but still wanted a het action or for some girls apparently they prefer penetration with penis compare to toys. So all of this is a ways to make people enjoy porn more and isn't in any way meant to represent trans people. In fact it is far from it, since futanari by definition has penis and pussy. I'm perfectly fine with hentai or w/e having a trans character, but I really dislike futanari. So like, it is hard to deny it is a fetish, just not a way to fetishize trans people.

It's complicated. I don't think they're trying to represent trans people, however, a girl can still be a girl even if she has a penis, right? And that's what futas are: girls with penis. So, if they were supposed to be a representation of trans people, I think they're a bad one (for being a fetish). If they weren't, well, whatever, still not my thing (since it's a fetish regardless). I had a hard time finding a definition for futas, but I think you finally gave me an answer (something that has the sole purpose of making people enjoy porn more). Thank you. :)

last edited at Nov 30, 2016 1:44PM

something that has the sole purpose of making people enjoy porn more

This seems to me like something that could describe the word 'fetish' in general; just replace the word 'porn' with 'sex' when it comes to irl situations. So I suppose it does fit the bill when describing futanari works.

Also I apologize for continuing the derailment, I'll promptly stop now.

last edited at Nov 30, 2016 2:00PM

LumberingCrane posted:

something that has the sole purpose of making people enjoy porn more

This seems to me like something that could describe the word 'fetish' in general; just replace the word 'porn' with 'sex' when it comes to irl situations.

Not necessary. Fetish is something that you must have in order to even be able to enjoy sex/porn. Futa is more like something that make watching/reading porn more enjoyable, but isn't necessary to enjoy it at all.

I seriously don't get where this came from. Futanari=/=trans.

I've totally seen people try to justify futa as trans-positive or even connected to intersex somehow. Never mind that futa rarely resembles either in practice, and is almost entirely focused on genitals.

To be honest, it's very rare I like a futa doujin. That Maki x Rin one where Rin does come off pretty believably as trans (and just as importantly it's more about what the characters are feeling than focusing on the genitals) and ones like Happy Cherry 2 where it's basically just a magic dildo (and again, a focus on the characters' love for each other).

I'm not particularly sad about it. While I don't mind tomboys etc. when they are characters, not stereotypes, I do prefer my girls girly, so japanese preferred "default women" works perfectly for me. Actually I like it much more because one of reasons I like yuri so much more over het and yaoi is that it does't force set roles and expectations on each partner and is much more fluid in this aspect, making it much more realistic to me.

I dunno, I find the idea that both characters must be femme to be pretty forced. When more "butch" females either are rarities or are vocally resisted ("She looks like a man!") then that limits what girls in fiction are allowed to be. Not to say that a butch character has to be dominant or a stereotype, just that there's a lot of lovely range of female expression that's being cut off by excluding them.

I suppose in a similar way that RL trans and intersex people don't really resemble futa, RL butches often don't resemble what appears from time to time in manga either. With some exceptions we should all be grateful for, of course.

Nezchan posted:

I dunno, I find the idea that both characters must be femme to be pretty forced. When more "butch" females either are rarities or are vocally resisted ("She looks like a man!") then that limits what girls in fiction are allowed to be.

I never said they both have to be femme. I dislike the idea that there has to be some kind of role setting in relationship. I like when 2 normal girls can just get together and be yourself without needed to fit into some pre-set roles. Same goes for sex, unless one is naturally more submissive and other more dominant, both can take the lead and in general they usually please each other together. The work you linked shows pretty well what I have in mind. The butch character there is only butch from personality, not appearance and doesn't care about usual expectations.

gosh darnit, i was gonna say something along the lines of "ha ha, rin's a scorpio so that's why she's got so much sexual stamina" but this forum just killed my vibe

gosh darnit, i was gonna say something along the lines of "ha ha, rin's a scorpio so that's why she's got so much sexual stamina" but this forum just killed my vibe

Glad we could be there for you!

Oh my gosh I love seeing different ships and their dynamics. I swear it makes me read these stories because it's so interesting! :D

The pure kitty ain't so pure now, is she?