One of the reasons I want to make a separate variant of Printemps script fix is... It's pretty esoteric.
Printemps is probably the heaviest on the amount of emergent subtext of all four FLOWERS volumes. (Which is kind of crazy, considering that a lot of the time its cast communicates in plain manner, so it swings between the two sides like an unhinged pendulum.) The rough definition for subtext I use is “saying one thing and implying another through context”. Its main source is simple. Our protagonist comes into a completely new and unfamiliar environment, which includes the social circle of her Amitie group. Both of her partners aren't blanks, they came into this place with personal histories, wants and needs of their own. The histories, needs, and wants of which Suoh has no awareness in the beginning, but they still manifest in many of the social interactions between the three of them.

Naturally, many of these whoosh over Suoh's head, but we can still notice them even when she doesn't. However, some of this subtext doesn't come into focus on the first reading. Suspicions may arise, but we just don't have knowledge of the larger context yet to make any conclusions. And this is where the TL doesn't really communicate some of those more subtle shades and microtones.
Example: the opening scene in Chapter 4, during which Rikka and Mayuri pretty much talk around each other, but Suoh doesn't notice that, because she's focused on her own feelings. That, and because she is unaware of quite a few developments her superfriends are going through right now.
Of a particular note are the following lines after Mayuri tries to pressure Rikka into being more careful because “you wouldn't want nasty rumors about yourself”, with Rikka responding to that warning by her face getting red. Then:

M: “How boring.”
R: “What was that? I didn't hear.”
M: “Oh, nothing. I'm just saying you should be careful, that's all.”
(After that, M continues to nudge R by saying that it's better “to draw a line”.)

Obviously, this whole interaction isn't about Mayuri being a good mother hen. Mayuri is a bad, bad wolf, but she knows when to keep her voice down. Alas, this is the moment when she lets it out on accident. And Rikka's question is supposed to fix our attention on Mayuri's utterance which is a little more than strange. Unfortunately, its translation is a little too murky and muddy for my liking. She doesn't say “How boring”. Not really. With a dispirited look on her face and with curt delivery, she almost mumbles「……面白くないな」。The nuance is that the negative of “fun” isn't always “boring” with that adjective. It can carry a more general “unenjoyable” connotation of “non-fun”. Something that's a little unpleasant, a bit annoying. What Mayuri says is “That's frustrating”, or something akin to “That's not good/fun” if we want to be covert.
Hey, Mayuri, what's frustrating? Oh, it's nothing. It's just Rikka's intense fascination with Suoh. Of course that wouldn't be fun. She wants Suoh to disappear and have Rikka for herself. Mhm.

EDIT:
I think it's about time I create a separate FLOWERS thread, since these musings about various FLOWERS projects don't really fit into this one, and I'll want to share lots of them.

last edited at Aug 17, 2025 3:46AM

Adorable that you believe you can tell me what my "true" opinions are...

A little less condescension and scorn would be much appreciated. I don't think I've said anything that horribly offensive to earn it.
I was not literally telling you what your opinions are, that'd be comically bad of me to assume that I know those better than you do inside your own head. The whole point of that part of my message was as follows. I simply noticed what I interpreted to be a rather stark contrast between what I observed (relatively) recently in your statements about "FLOWERS problems" and what I had observed back then. This contrast, if it existed or exists, didn't make much sense to me, because, if I were in your place, with my personal values, experiences and my set of knowledge, I would exist in a constant state of coping and self-contradiction. So it all leads to me, essentially, not you. Is that better? If you want to be offended about something, you should probably be annoyed about me using you as a jumpstart to make an elaborate point lol.
I suppose this can also serve as a partial answer to yours “If you can't love something without acknowledging its flaws, is it really love?". If you're going to extrapolate something from that, then, a reminder: it's only a partial answer.

I do not consider that an opinion. An opinion on whether someone likes something or not, that is definitely subjective. But the writing is just objectively better in Automne, both from a literary point of view and in execution. I can't say if this is a consequence of the translation mind you, but Automne even on a thematical and mystery level is just more coherent than Printemps and Hiver. Yes, you can LIKE or PREFER any of the novels more and call them your favorite, that is completely subjective. This is why said it's totally up to opinion which one is the best actual work.
But Printemps and Hiver both suffer from badly connected twists/mysteries/motivations, which all are not subjective, those are just actual flaws of these works, whether that matters to someone or not. Writing can after all take a backseat to prefered relationships and characters in many works.

Okay, finally.
Firstly, I would very much like to hear plain definitions of "objective" and "subjective" under which you operate. Yes, really. Everything else must wait.
Secondly, I have no idea how you'll take it, but let me throw a small piece of a larger idea at you. It's pretty relevant, I promise. Here's how it sounds: "Nothing is ever just 'neutral' or 'default'".

I suppose our views are simply incompatible, just like I concluded the first time we discussed the series. You may take offense to me calling something a fact when fiction is all about interpretations, so if it makes you feel better, lets say that whatever I refer to as a "fact" is just the closest possible approximation to a fact that writing can lend to us.

Potentially wrong about it being some kind of incompatibility between views. In part because I don't believe you understand my views, and me yours. We never talked about them in any real way.

Just wrong about me taking offence. I'm perfectly aware that "fact" in this case it nothing more than a shorthand for "the most plausible reading or a range of readings". Nor I consider analysis of fiction to be just about interpretations, or, rather, that any and all interpretations are equally valid and sound. It this sounds to you like a way of me saying that I consider some of your approximations to be off base, then you're right. Some of them, way off base, with you presenting little to no analysis and textual evidence to back them up. Needless to say, interpretations of a literary work which aspire to properly understand it should come only after you get your "factual" understanding of the entire text straight (sorry for saying this in a yuri thread).

(Please note how I highlighted the word analysis. Because that's what I'm interested in and what I consider to be the only important thing. Analysis doesn't automatically have to result in any form of evaluation or even has to contain evaluative statements. I'm not interested in that. I want understanding of how things work in a down-top fashion, not in the fashion of whatever top-down sloppy idealist nonsense the current and past styles and trends of art reviewing propose about "bad" and "good writing".)

That's one part of the "views" which may or may not be "incompatible" between us, though. The other half is.. Allow me ask you a probing question first. Why exactly do you insist that not concluding the mystery behind Yuzuriha being attacked is a problem? Let me make this clear upfront. It's not really a question about that particular "thing". Your answer will partially or fully reveal to me whether I have one or several issues with your approach for analysing literature or not. I don't know if I do, it's just another guess.

I have neither the time nor the energy to resume a years old debate, sorry to say. Mayhaps if we had continued back in the day, when all the VNs were still fresh in my mind I would care to, but even back then you quite openly ignored or waved off serious plot issues I brought up in quite a lot of detail, so I do not fancy a repeat of that.

I told you just a few days ago that I do not consider that I was properly equipped for that conversation. Which is exactly why I see absolutely zero point in actually going back to it as it is. As of now, I do not stand by what is probably the majority of things which I said back then for a complex multitude of reasons. But when I decided circa the late 2023 that I maybe wanted to resume that conversation or initiate a fresh one, I started noticing your "needlessly" forceful tone (aka you being blunt), and my enthusiasm had deflated drastically. I join these conversations to better learn and better understand what I love through attempting to maintain real, authentic exchanges with people, even if we may disagree. I do not join them to start all too common online fights (aka "debates", and it's very rich to call them that) over who's supposedly "objectively correct", thank you very much. (Yes, a little contradictory considering that it's what I'm doing now, but it is what it is.)

Well, that pause had allowed me to study to improve my overall grasp on various theoretical tools of lit analysis. So, in a kind of a weird way, thank you, genuinely. I mean it.

More importantly... From this, should I take that you haven't reread FLOWERS since then? If that's the case, then it's genuinely unfortunate. I had considered proposing you something I thought could be interesting to you before I even began this whole not particularly pleasant "convo". An exercise which would've been a lot more beneficial than just going back three years into the past. We both write something akin to an extremely lengthy synopsis of FLOWERS, and after the last person is done, we exchange those with each other. I assume the purpose of such an exercise is clear to you.

last edited at Aug 16, 2025 11:08AM

Well, not that I intended to force this place into becoming a FLOWERS-only zone, but that's how it turned out after me relentlessly bombarding with messages and harassing the host of this thread.

I've made a thing...

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Zi3LgDQOrf4d0tbxxbrHi2Sj63leg7ot

Yes, this is a legitimate script patch for the English release of Printemps. So far, it alleviates only the most frustrating aspects of the official localisation: missing lines, one minor scripting oversight, and a single case of a misnomer. The final goal is to eventually iron out all of the small stuff like typos and occasionally funky grammar.

Are you going to link this on VNDB? More people will get to use your patch that way.

I will, eventually, but I'd like to finish it first and find a beta to proofread it.

Edit:
Ackchyually. I want to make two versions of the script patch. One will contain only the fixes which are absolutely crucial. The other will also introduce changes which, by their nature, could be described as more...liberal.

last edited at Aug 15, 2025 1:22AM

@Giftnova

Eh, unrelated? It is yuri, isn't it? (Because, based on its synopsis and the general vibe I get from all the promo materials, it could easily be not.)

last edited at Aug 14, 2025 11:13PM

Now to get to the fabled "pure content"... Here's a blast from the past.

@Licentious Lantern

Shall we?

The game very clearly portrayed Mayuri's choice to leave as a result of the new rule of getting separated or expelled for romantic relationships between roommates. That is what triggered the whole situation. But it is never brought up again and this new rule doesn't exist in the sequels.

A detailed explanation on what specifically and precisely you mean by "the game very clearly portrayed" and on how you've arrived at your conclusion certainly wouldn't hurt. Chains of events, character interaction and dialogue, introspection and narration in general. Everything you deem to be relevant for your argument.

In retrospect when looking through this thread it may appear like I'm on the negative side when it concerns Hiver, but I really do believe it's an amazing VN. I more or less agree with some people saying the mystery's resolution was lacking, but that wouldn't destroy all the emotional pay-off and character work it provides.

I don't even need to look through this thread, because I remember nearly every turn and detail of the tragicomedy that had transpired here three years ago quite sharply and vividly. Suffices to say that... Yeah, no, sorry. I do not believe it. Not that I suspect you of lying or anything, that's not it. Problem is, you had far, far more issues with Hiver that you seem to be willing to admit at the current point in time. Issues which, according to my current understanding of FLOWERS, would uproot its original, newly developed and re-introduced ideas which it builds throughout. So you're either just holding back, if unintentionally or unwillingly, or don't fully grasp the depth and seriousness of ramifications of those problems you've originally had or still have.
Problems and issues which I do not believe to be present. How's that for a conversation starter?

last edited at Aug 14, 2025 4:18AM

God, I'm so absent-minded sometimes... Why do I keep forgetting to do these things?!

Here's the link to an archive containing of all kinds of FLOWERS supplementary material.

I'm not entirely sure if sharing this is against the forum rules. Doesn't look like it, but please delete in case it is.

Yes, this is a legitimate script patch for the English release of Printemps. So far, it alleviates only the most frustrating aspects of the official localisation: missing lines, one minor scripting oversight, and a single case of a misnomer. The final goal is to eventually iron out all of the small stuff like typos and occasionally funky grammar.

Wasn't the translation already fixed? A double fix. Truly the double band-aid of writing.

It was, but they still managed to rush it. Not Meru's fault, I blame only JAST for not giving her enough time, which was in short supply as she was also the only editor IIRC, in addition to being the translator.
You can see the fixes I've made in the attached patchnotes doc.

My dejected reaction was a semi-humorous observation of what seems to be a shift in your mentality and attitude, which, if it's really happening, I happen to appreciate. So I would say that you should consider this to be a weird dig at you only if you still genuinely stand by what some of the things you had written here precisely two summers ago. Well, maybe not by "what". It was mostly about tone of some of your messages. Tone which had made me cry out "god, I don't want to deal with this!" and had finally made me eschew the hope of having any sincere conversation about Flowers in this forum. A conversation I would be more willing to have then if I were better equipped for it as I do now, but back then it felt like a bit too much, a bit too frustrating and alienating.
(Fyi, I'm not writing this expecting any kind of consolation or attempting any kind of gross guilt trip. Just finally choosing to voice those feelings.)

_

Tone is irrelevant to me, I know I can be rather blunt. Judge me by the content of my posts, not their "tone", if you will.

This is genuinely bizarre to me, but okay, I guess...

I also never once claimed my view is the correct one.

...Alright. I can narrow it down to just a single comment for you:

Automne is still objectively better written than Printemps and Hiver though, whether someone likes it or not.

It's the highlighted part of the quotation. It is fully indicative of the problem I have. It's the crux. Because yes, I'd really want to hear you explain in which universe this doesn't read immediately as someone outright claiming to have a correct opinion. (And yes, I understand that by "it" you were referring to "Automne" in the context of the original comment.) The correct opinion, I should probably say. If you will respond by saying that I'm reading and interpreting all of this in bad faith, then you'll have to believe me that I've absolutely tried not to.

I do not have a problem with discussions having high levels of intensity. I have them all the time about the things I love. I have a fundamental issue with discussions of other type. But I'd want to answer which type and what's the issue, as well as some of the other parts of your comment, after reading your response first.

last edited at Aug 13, 2025 2:41AM

So yeah, I've sent checks notes one hundred and fifty pieces of FLOWERS fan art by a couple dozen of artists six weeks ago. So far only two of them were uploaded.

I admire your dedication... Though I feel that the spam might actually just turn the image uploaders more spiteful.

Don't worry, I'm batshit insane, but not necessarily stupid in a conventional sense. I had sent those as a single archive with proper folder structure and credits for all of the artists. Even then, I had been politely waiting for almost two weeks before contacting Orange Pekoe and asking whether my request had been received at all.

• The fan book that was distributed during the event also contains the second part of the story. It's mostly about Suoh and Mayuri living their working adult life together, with Suoh starting her career at an old, distinguished bookstore.

Need Need Need NEED Neeeeeeed that! Please if you ever come by a scanlation of this run it by us! This is the best thing I have ever read with mine mortal eyes.

I hope that we'll eventually have it, but it will probably take a very long time for it to appear in places one should not talk about. Unless one of my partners in crime will grace us with a scan, which is probably not going to happen. Cause those books are expensive and precious as hell...

Automne very much is the best individual FLOWERS VN in my opinion and it is not even close.

I find it curious that your attitude towards the topic of having opinions has seemingly shifted in the last couple of years.
But maybe I shouldn't get hung up on these things. shrugs dejectedly

I do not understand your point. Did I not, in very visible letters, write "IN MY OPINION"? Is this a malfunction on my screen? A glitch in the system?
I'm sorry if you were not trying to get a dig at me, but your dejected shrugging implies some form of disapproval of my behaviour. Explain, if you would...

My dejected reaction was a semi-humorous observation of what seems to be a shift in your mentality and attitude, which, if it's really happening, I happen to appreciate. So I would say that you should consider this to be a weird dig at you only if you still genuinely stand by what some of the things you had written here precisely two summers ago. Well, maybe not by "what". It was mostly about tone of some of your messages. Tone which had made me cry out "god, I don't want to deal with this!" and had finally made me eschew the hope of having any sincere conversation about Flowers in this forum. A conversation I would be more willing to have then if I were better equipped for it as I do now, but back then it felt like a bit too much, a bit too frustrating and alienating.
(Fyi, I'm not writing this expecting any kind of consolation or attempting any kind of gross guilt trip. Just finally choosing to voice those feelings.)

last edited at Aug 11, 2025 6:23AM

I've made a thing...

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Zi3LgDQOrf4d0tbxxbrHi2Sj63leg7ot

Yes, this is a legitimate script patch for the English release of Printemps. So far, it alleviates only the most frustrating aspects of the official localisation: missing lines, one minor scripting oversight, and a single case of a misnomer. The final goal is to eventually iron out all of the small stuff like typos and occasionally funky grammar.

last edited at Aug 11, 2025 6:26AM

Ah, something I always forget to do.

I have a big collection of Rokka-En (FLOWERS' dorm building exterior and interior) photos to share. Wish they were mine, but alas, they're a friend's. She visited the place last year in late February, so the gardens don't look very scenic in this set, but it's still pretty picturesque.

https://imgbox.com/g/k5rghC0QKB

She visited the mansion this spring as well and made a bunch of great shots, but I'll have to ask her permission to show those here (already did that for the set above), and I'll have to upload them somewhere, since she shared them directly in a Flowers fan server.

In other news...

Automne very much is the best individual FLOWERS VN in my opinion and it is not even close.

I find it curious that your attitude towards the topic of having opinions has seemingly shifted in the last couple of years.
But maybe I shouldn't get hung up on these things. shrugs dejectedly

last edited at Aug 8, 2025 6:52AM

So yeah, I've sent checks notes one hundred and fifty pieces of FLOWERS fan art by a couple dozen of artists six weeks ago. So far only two of them were uploaded. Though I'm disappointed with the rate of uploads, it's not like I can do anything about it. I get that every week the site's admins have to add dozens of images for dozens of yuri fandoms (even if a whole bunch of the popular ones are largely based off of headcanon, let's be real for a second here).

As for the live event, I don't have much to share on it. At first, I wanted to start by looking for interesting info in the Facebook fan group, but Facebook hates me for some reason, because it repeatedly keeps blocking all my new accs almost immediately. Fortunately, I was able to talk to an aquaintance of mine, who've managed to visit the concert. Here's a rough oultine of the event based on their personal account:

• Only Suoh, Nazuka Kaori that is, was present on stage in person. All other actresses, whose characters appear in the story, were present only as pre-recorded voices.
• Apparently, Okamoto Rie visited the event itself, but, as I understood it, didn't go on stage for some reason.
• Originally, I had assumed that Suoh and Mayuri would be narrating the story, but in reality it was a different pair of girlfailures: Suoh and Erika. (Considering how highly in demand Sakura-san is as a seiyuu, it's not suprising that she wasn't there. Ah, shame. With her being a rabid, unhinged himejoshi, FLOWERS had been her yuri dream project for a decade.)
• Apparently, there was a lot of really sweet SuohEri material still. Gah! Erika, why did you abandon your nakama... It would've been so much sweeter with you and her together!
• At least Yuzuriha and Nerine got wed in the course of the story. "Wdym 'at least'?", one might ask. I wish I knew lol. My assumption is that other girls got married as well, but the initial explanation by my informant felt unclear, so I asked again whether my interpretation was correct, but got no response to it.
• The fan book that was distributed during the event also contains the second part of the story. It's mostly about Suoh and Mayuri living their working adult life together, with Suoh starting her career at an old, distinguished bookstore.

My initial reaction to the beginning of Ch.4: "Wow, girl, surprises are nice, but chill!".

My current reaction on a re-read: "Okay, Satoko, surprises are great and all, but maybe let the lady eat and rest for a few minutes. Sometimes acting as a good lesbian tradwife is more important than being a horny lesbian disaster!"

last edited at Jul 20, 2025 8:23AM

They don't make sense, and yet they're a couple. That's how strong their love is.

In other late news...

I do absolutely judge and analyse every volume of a novel series individually. It is important to take in a long series both on the micro and macro level in my opinion.

I wasn't saying at all that analysis of individual parts of an overarching story isn't important. I was instead making a semi-serious jab at some people's overall position that FLOWERS’ “volumes” could ever be fully or even sufficiently understood as “self-contained” stories connected merely by plot threads, and not by overlapping layers of thematic reoccurrences and repetitions. The fact that they're individually distinct doesn't mean they are separate from one another in any real way. They're a single story which was split into multiple parts largely because of initial production constraints, not because of a grand artistic vision that dictated for it to be produced like this, even if InoGre definitely managed to find a way to make it an artistic boon rather than a burden. They simply don't make sense without one another in a variety of large and small ways.

(And I wish I was strawmanning, but, unfortunately, I've seen this conviction play out in the most bizarre ways on multiple occasions. One person even ended up recommending their friend/acquaintance to start with Automne, as the supposedly “best one”, in what seemed to be a hope that they'd just bruteforce their way through the story and manage to piece everything together from clues and hints. Suffices to say that the experience seemed to be rather unsatisfactory, because a great portion of narrative parallels went over the victim's head, while they also kept making incorrect assumptions and coming to incorrect conclusions about various things simply because they lacked necessary context.)

last edited at Jun 16, 2025 12:34PM

I'm making this comment as a mental note of sorts, because otherwise these small Flowers-related wants will once again get devoured by the cruel immanence of my daily routine.

Plan #1: I've been meaning to make a few image upload requests for a while now, because Dynasty is seriously lacking in not just quality FLOWERS art, but pretty much any FLOWERS art. There are a lot of genuinely beautiful fan works I've discovered over the years, so I've amassed a solid collection, if I say so myself.

A few of my favourites:

[Spoiler warning: do not open these links if you haven't finished reading the entirety of the Flowers tetralogy.]

• Printemps, Ete, Automne, Hiver (you need to be logged into your Pixiv account to view the Hiver one, likely because of a spoiler)

No matter how many times I look at these four artworks side by side, each time they evoke some rather intense “religious painting” vibes. It's not just about their beauty, but also about the feeling of reverence I experience.

• https://www.pixiv.net/artworks/81657896

The first few in this collection are absolutely lovely, but where this gallery starts to get genuinely crazy to me is with B&W pieces. Among those, №3, 6, 7, and 9 manage to make me a little emotional every time I look through them. It's as if there's a link between mine and this artist's mind in terms of how we both seem to understand specific narrative aspects and some of the story beats. Pure madness.

Plan #2: The last FLOWERS live event in April came and went, so I'm going to gather, sort and share all of the noteworthy info about it the next few days.

last edited at Jun 15, 2025 6:36PM

I have only played Printemps years later, so I wasn't even aware of this scandal in the initial release. What exactly was the damage?

Examples are in chronological order: 1, 2, 3.
While I do have certain criticisms towards the English translation after extensively comparing it to the source and to a different translation, they are so ridiculously miniscule that they pretty much don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

PS. I must warn everyone in this thread that grading any of the FLOWERS volumes individually is tantamount to church schism. Insurrection will not be tolerated.

last edited at Apr 24, 2024 6:18AM

Translators aren't at fault here, that much is obvious. They do only what they were paid for. Frankly, Meru should be hailed as a hero for saving EN FLOWERS from being thrown into pits of hell after that fiasco with the original Printemps translation. So I if were to blame anyone for anything, I would point fingers at the JAST's higher-ups. There were a few telltale signs that I interpret as them slowly losing all interest in trying to promote FLOWERS in the West. (Unsurprisingly, the Chinese-speaking part of the community is much, much more active.)

I guess that having a tl;dr of some sort wouldn't hurt, and yet I don't think that any kind of mechanistic summarization, no matter how detailed, would do these audio dramas any real justice. Some of them are up to 2,5-3 hours long, so it takes some effort to just parse and transcribe them. Overall, there exist full translations for Voiee Lactee (from Les Quatre Saisons) and for the Automne one, a significant portion of Snow White, and a bunch of small chunks from the other ones. Hopefully, there'll be more by the end of this year, but no guarantees.

last edited at Apr 22, 2024 6:46AM

Today's date marks the 10th FLOWERS anniversary. While Innocent Grey don't have any plans for official celebratory events, the upcoming release of the latest drama CD titled “The Flower Language of Gloriosa” seems to be a way for the studio to complete yet another revolution of the upward spiral that is FLOWERS. Thankfully, this doesn't appear to be the end, if Shimizu-sensei's comment on Twitter is anything to go by. The drama CD in question will simply serve as the closing chapter in the eponymous “Flower Language” audio drama tetralogy.

UPDATE: yuri goddesses have actually blessed this wretched reality with a Flowers concert that will take place next year

(Rant time.
Unfortunately, I can imagine that most of this rings hollow to people who can't understand spoken Japanese, as nothing indicates that any of the drama CDs will ever get official English releases. Honestly, if the simple fact that JAST USA couldn't be bothered with fixing glaring editing errors in the VNs they've already published (which made me go “fine, I will do it myself” out of sheer frustration) and the state in which Hiver was originally released indicate their current attitude towards FLOWERS even remotely, then the idea of them releasing any of the “supplementary” media appears to be a pipe dream. While fan translations do exist, they come out at a glacial pace for reasons all too obvious. We (aka the nebulous “active English-speaking part of the FLOWERS community”) could definitely use more people, but so far we haven't come up with any sensible head-hunting strategies besides screaming into the void aimlessly, so to speak.)

last edited at Apr 18, 2024 5:55AM

One of my biggest gripes with automne was how Yuzuriha chose someone who always toyed with her feelings, until the bitter end, while the Ringo ending had her actually start processing what she's been put through.

Ringo ending shows that Yuzuriha is not able, and likely will never be able, to fully let go of Nerine though, and the reason for that is that she wasn't able to close that Nerine gestalt, so to speak. What makes Ringo ending different to True and Nerine endings is the lack of confession scenes where Yuzuriha avows once again and when Nerine finally opens up about her manipulative actions during their shared childhood. So while Ringo might've been a "healthier" option for Yuzuriha, it's clearly not what she truly wants. (I also think that the writing is aware of this idea, for example, in the Nerine ending.) I might've been more receptive to the idea of Ringo genuinely being a legitimate love interest for Yuzuriha at this point in her life if she chose Ringo after Nerine refused to accept her second confession, but not as it stands.

I also feel that saying that Nerine toyed with Yuzu's feelings this whole time is kind of a stretch. While she was manipulative when they were children, she transformed into a practically different, much more introverted and gloomy, person after that meeting with Yuzuriha's mother. Yeah, a part of this wallowing self-hatred of her is really just self-pity (her selfish self-sacrifice during the Werewolf incident is an example of that) and her desire to uphold the status quo, until the second confession by Yuzu also pushes her to confess, did hurt Yuzuriha. But that's not what I would call "toying with", at least not in the present moment.

There's a lot more I could add, but I feel like it's not the right place to write a long-winded character analysis. So here's a bit of an unstructured ramble that explores their relationship in more detail (not by me, but I did ask permission to share it).

Wait, Sasaki and Ichigo are considered alternatives? But they were pretty kissy about their relationship at the perfect ending of the winter (last) one.

They were kissy only in the 4koma, so no, they aren't really a canon couple.

last edited at Nov 27, 2022 2:14AM

@Lynn
Did you read the Voie Lactee drama CD transcript?
There are also a few SuohMayu doujins on Pixiv...alas, they are all untranslated.

I think the reason very few artists seem to do anything with Mayuri and Suoh is because their relationship is left on a very odd note; not only is Mayuri pretty much entirely gone most of the time, the ending of hiver is, at best, confusing about her character.

In contrast, Yuzuriha and Nerine did seem very clearly like a couple, or at least a couple-to-be, and ChidoEri has always been perfect, so everyone ended up with more art of them.

What makes you see them as less of a couple in specific? Which parts of Hiver's ending?

last edited at Nov 27, 2022 4:08AM

Doing God's work.

Another one by Medalda (cringeworthy TL by me): https://twitter.com/MEDALDA/status/1423835598213709827

(Panel #1)
"This oppressive heat just goes on and on day after day, I'm getting FED UP."
(Panel #2)
"Yeah..."
(Panel #3)
"Can't even give you a hug because of it."
"...Yeah?"

last edited at Sep 7, 2022 9:49AM

@Lilification
There's a certain Discord server mentioned in the fan wiki.

@Licentious Lantern
I would like to clarify something.

it's the explicit goal for most of the girls taken by the Goddess of Truth.

I'm probably misreading this line because you might be speaking figuratively here, but I just have to make sure that we are on the same page.
Yes, you could say that they are “taken” if you’re sticking to the legend, to the mystery itself, but, in truth (oh the irony), the Goddess of Truth is the girl herself who is “taken” by Mother Elder, the Tulpa of Agape.
From the mansion scene:
#Suoh: The Goddess of Truth is the girl who is taken away by Mother Elder as Sion Basquiat.

update:
I reread some of the things that I wrote in my previous posts, and one particular thing that I said, the way I worded it...well, it's not good. I wish to make it clear that I don't find any joy in those tragic class S tropes and narratives themselves (after all, they are based on real, lived experiences of real women). Rather, I was glad to see how one of them was used for telling a firmly positive ending for the series. And even though it's an incredibly bitter finale for them, at least in death Sayuri and Sion were finally reunited. It's an ending and a closure that no class S story ever gave to its readers and characters.
Class S-inspired works (and similar non-Japanese works, especially one certain Canadian film) were my introduction to yuri and wlw narratives 16 years ago. And yet, with time I became tired of them and alienated from them for many reasons, the main of which was the realization that I wanted happy endings. But at the same time no matter how many hundreds of stories I read and watched, I couldn't find anything (or at least any long-form work beyond a few very close candidates like Simoun) that would enthrall and grip me quite as strongly as Marimite, its world and characters, was able to capture my mind. So for me Flowers is like a gestalt closure, like a bridge over the gap that unites old and new, merges an archaic past with a modern meaning.

last edited at Jul 25, 2022 6:31AM

I realize that I'm continuing an off-topic discussion, so I swear that it's my last post about this, please spare me, oh great and mighty moderators!

The true Christian influence only came back with the reopening to the world before WW1.

Well, that's the exact historical period which is discussed in that publication: from the Meiji period which brought Westernization to the front and up to pre-WW2 societal radicalization (which, in particular, resulted in the official ban of class S); and the vast majority of its bibliography are Japanese sources (journals, newspapers, publications, etc). For example, it talks about how the language itself had transformed and adapted to reflect this cultural shift surrounding new perception of love. I've looked through some sources in Japanese and, I think, their general academic consensus is pretty much the same: there's quite a clear divide between pre-Meiji era purely Japanese and post-Meiji era Westernized perception of love, including romantic love.

I am fairly familiar with both Class S' cultural basis and Nobuko Yoshiya's works. I am also highly critical of both, but alas, it's pointless to get upset about the means of the past when we live in the present shaped by their results.

When viewed from a modern perspective, it obviously should be judged critically. But "Two Virgins" is a pretty special case, because it might be the first fictional story about same-sex love which has a positive, if not a happy ending. IIRC, Yoshiya'd primary drive for writing this novel was something of a dissatisfaction with the things she wrote previously, and she even was ready to invest her personal savings into its publication.
Some researchers propose that it is semiautobiographical and reflective of Yoshia's personal experience living at the dormitories of YWCA (Young Women's Christian Association) in Tokyo.

Just a handful of tiny excerpts (Not sure if this is fully acceptable legally and morally, but I'm citing these examples just for, well, educational purposes, so...)

I also view Automne's ending as an inversion of Marimite's quite famous double chapter "Forest of Thorns/White Petals" (it's even more similar to the ending of that arc in the anime adaptation). Or, maybe, Hatsumi read "Two Virgins", but Konno Oyuki simply didn't. :/

last edited at Jul 24, 2022 5:58AM