Forum › Posts by icipher
One of my biggest gripes with automne was how Yuzuriha chose someone who always toyed with her feelings, until the bitter end, while the Ringo ending had her actually start processing what she's been put through.
Ringo ending shows that Yuzuriha is not able, and likely will never be able, to fully let go of Nerine though, and the reason for that is that she wasn't able to close that Nerine gestalt, so to speak. What makes Ringo ending different to True and Nerine endings is the lack of confession scenes where Yuzuriha avows once again and when Nerine finally opens up about her manipulative actions during their shared childhood. So while Ringo might've been a "healthier" option for Yuzuriha, it's clearly not what she truly wants. (I also think that the writing is aware of this idea, for example, in the Nerine ending.) I might've been more receptive to the idea of Ringo genuinely being a legitimate love interest for Yuzuriha at this point in her life if she chose Ringo after Nerine refused to accept her second confession, but not as it stands.
I also feel that saying that Nerine toyed with Yuzu's feelings this whole time is kind of a stretch. While she was manipulative when they were children, she transformed into a practically different, much more introverted and gloomy, person after that meeting with Yuzuriha's mother. Yeah, a part of this wallowing self-hatred of her is really just self-pity (her selfish self-sacrifice during the Werewolf incident is an example of that) and her desire to uphold the status quo, until the second confession by Yuzu also pushes her to confess, did hurt Yuzuriha. But that's not what I would call "toying with", at least not in the present moment.
There's a lot more I could add, but I feel like it's not the right place to write a long-winded character analysis. So here's a bit of an unstructured ramble that explores their relationship in more detail (not by me, but I did ask permission to share it).
Did you read the Voie Lactee drama CD transcript?
There are also a few SuohMayu doujins on Pixiv...alas, they are all untranslated.
I think the reason very few artists seem to do anything with Mayuri and Suoh is because their relationship is left on a very odd note; not only is Mayuri pretty much entirely gone most of the time, the ending of hiver is, at best, confusing about her character.
In contrast, Yuzuriha and Nerine did seem very clearly like a couple, or at least a couple-to-be, and ChidoEri has always been perfect, so everyone ended up with more art of them.
What makes you see them as less of a couple in specific? Which parts of Hiver's ending?
last edited at Nov 27, 2022 4:08AM
Doing God's work.
Another one by Medalda (cringeworthy TL by me): https://twitter.com/MEDALDA/status/1423835598213709827
"This oppressive heat just goes on and on day after day, I'm getting FED UP."
"Can't even give you a hug because of it."
last edited at Sep 7, 2022 9:49AM
There's a certain Discord server mentioned in the fan wiki.
I would like to clarify something.
it's the explicit goal for most of the girls taken by the Goddess of Truth.
I'm probably misreading this line because you might be speaking figuratively here, but I just have to make sure that we are on the same page.
Yes, you could say that they are “taken” if you’re sticking to the legend, to the mystery itself, but, in truth (oh the irony), the Goddess of Truth is the girl herself who is “taken” by Mother Elder, the Tulpa of Agape.
From the mansion scene:
#Suoh: The Goddess of Truth is the girl who is taken away by Mother Elder as Sion Basquiat.
I reread some of the things that I wrote in my previous posts, and one particular thing that I said, the way I worded it...well, it's not good. I wish to make it clear that I don't find any joy in those tragic class S tropes and narratives themselves (after all, they are based on real, lived experiences of real women). Rather, I was glad to see how one of them was used for telling a firmly positive ending for the series. And even though it's an incredibly bitter finale for them, at least in death Sayuri and Sion were finally reunited. It's an ending and a closure that no class S story ever gave to its readers and characters.
Class S-inspired works (and similar non-Japanese works, especially one certain Canadian film) were my introduction to yuri and wlw narratives 16 years ago. And yet, with time I became tired of them and alienated from them for many reasons, the main of which was the realization that I wanted happy endings. But at the same time no matter how many hundreds of stories I read and watched, I couldn't find anything (or at least any long-form work beyond a few very close candidates like Simoun) that would enthrall and grip me quite as strongly as Marimite, its world and characters, was able to capture my mind. So for me Flowers is like a gestalt closure, like a bridge over the gap that unites old and new, merges an archaic past with a modern meaning.
last edited at Jul 25, 2022 6:31AM
I realize that I'm continuing an off-topic discussion, so I swear that it's my last post about this, please spare me, oh great and mighty moderators!
The true Christian influence only came back with the reopening to the world before WW1.
Well, that's the exact historical period which is discussed in that publication: from the Meiji period which brought Westernization to the front and up to pre-WW2 societal radicalization (which, in particular, resulted in the official ban of class S); and the vast majority of its bibliography are Japanese sources (journals, newspapers, publications, etc). For example, it talks about how the language itself had transformed and adapted to reflect this cultural shift surrounding new perception of love. I've looked through some sources in Japanese and, I think, their general academic consensus is pretty much the same: there's quite a clear divide between pre-Meiji era purely Japanese and post-Meiji era Westernized perception of love, including romantic love.
I am fairly familiar with both Class S' cultural basis and Nobuko Yoshiya's works. I am also highly critical of both, but alas, it's pointless to get upset about the means of the past when we live in the present shaped by their results.
When viewed from a modern perspective, it obviously should be judged critically. But "Two Virgins" is a pretty special case, because it might be the first fictional story about same-sex love which has a positive, if not a happy ending. IIRC, Yoshiya'd primary drive for writing this novel was something of a dissatisfaction with the things she wrote previously, and she even was ready to invest her personal savings into its publication.
Some researchers propose that it is semiautobiographical and reflective of Yoshia's personal experience living at the dormitories of YWCA (Young Women's Christian Association) in Tokyo.
Just a handful of tiny excerpts (Not sure if this is fully acceptable legally and morally, but I'm citing these examples just for, well, educational purposes, so...)
I also view Automne's ending as an inversion of Marimite's quite famous double chapter "Forest of Thorns/White Petals" (it's even more similar to the ending of that arc in the anime adaptation). Or, maybe, Hatsumi read "Two Virgins", but Konno Oyuki simply didn't. :/
last edited at Jul 24, 2022 5:58AM
I believe that yuri blooming symbolizes whether what the protagonist "truly wants" or if "the best outcome" for them is achieved. It feels to me that yellow route endings and alternate endings which have non-canon partners (Rikka, Dalia, Ringo) try to tell that those people are not complimentary romantic partners and they would not be able to grow together with the protagonist (although it's a bit more nuanced than that, especially with Yuzuriha/Ringo; I also realize that Dalia turned Erika down for obvious reasons, but Erika clearly still wants to pursue her even after the failed confession, hence I label her as an alternate romantic partner).
I agree on Suoh/Erika. I cannot see them as a romantic partners, just as best friends. No, but why "just"? I shouldn't say that. If Flowers has taught me anything (well, it taught me many things about myself which I already knew but also never knew), it's the fact that friendship is not simply another step before romantic love or that romantic love is not an ultimately superior form of love, and that friendship can often be more important, valuable and fulfilling than romance.
Yeah, now I think that I have projected too much of my Printemps impressions of Rikka on her whole ark in the series. I just found her possessive attitudes in Ete and Automne too creepy, so I thought that she still didn't let go of her "I feel as if my toy is being taken away" feeling towards Suoh, which might have colored my perception.
By the end of Hiver she is simply...happy if Suoh is happy. She was able to let go of her possessiveness, for the most part. The Cendrillon play exemplifies this by making her give her blessing to Suoh/Cendrillon and Mayuri/Prince as the Queen.
I'm afraid not and I can't imagine the material to be all that fascinating to me personally. From a historical context I am rather well versed in the treatment of women across Japan's medieval up to WW2 period.
Rather than talking about treatment of Japanese women in general, it focuses on highly specific topics like how the generally accepted traditional Japanese definition of love (both romantic and parental love) had changed under the influence of Christian mission in Japan and came to be viewed as the path of personal growth and betterment. Does this sound familiar? wink wink
It also talks a lot about the birth of class S and its politics, about how it was tied to Japanese early feminist movement. It pretty much explains where exactly all those tropes came from and why they were so common and popular back then, popular to the point of making Nobuko Yoshiya one of the, if not the wealthiest pre-war writer in Japan. And it also has a whole chapter dedicated to Nobuko Yoshiya's "Two Virgins in the Attic" (I also should note that the very ending of that novel is quite reminiscent of Automne's True End; I thought that this particular bit would be of interest to you as well).
last edited at Jul 21, 2022 8:39AM
It is a pretty popular Class S trope.
It is, but what I mean is that I firmly believed that Hiver would use this story specifically to finish off the deconstruction of class S genre. I just connected the dots: in particular, I was quite sure that the burned chapel would lead to the double suicide trope. Well, I wasn't particularly correct on that prediction, though it still involves suicide.
Hmm, I see your point. Although I was slightly irritated by it (irrational as I am), the way the story always focuses on "my Amitie partner this, my Amitie that" and makes it clear that it sees this system as a valuable one that brings the greatest joy, really cements your point. It mixes aspects that are essential to Class S with modern perception of homosexuality and the more straightforward approach of current yuri works.
It leads to the blurred lines at the end of Hiver where Rikka is so integrated into the relationship between Suoh and Mayuri that it made me question if the writer wanted to imply polyamory without saying it outright... Rikka is truly the most sturdy third wheel in history.
Rather than Amitie system itself, I was mostly thinking about how incredibly tightly-knit they all became as a group. They became each other's kindred sisters and these bonds will connect them for their entire lives.
I also never really interpreted Rikka's feelings for Suoh as fully romantic, because she never expresses them as romantic (she says "Thank you for accepting me as a friend" in her ending in Printemps). It's a mix of almost narcissistic admiration, adoration and strong, but never fully realized romantic undertones, which is a common theme for class S. After all, it's what it was — those were stories written in a time period when it was impossible to write about same-sex romantic love openly without society labelling it as abnormal. That's why writers of class S were using this whole framework of it being "pure" and "education" phase that was vitally important for the spiritual growth of adolescent girls. (Sometimes they truly believed that, and sometimes they used that ideology for avoiding censorship and negative reactions from society.)
That's why the lily never blooms in Rikka End in Printemps. It just cannot end this way. She is the "past," not the "future" Suoh wants to move forward to.
I wonder if you read this thing. If you didn't, I seriously urge you to give it a go. I initially read it a long ago, so I don't really remember if there's a way to get if for free legally (maybe via university online libraries). I simply bought a digital version.
I see. So you relate to the Suoh x Erika shipper, color me surprised! :P
Oh, no, I ain't no SuoEri shipper, heh. Well, I think that it's cute, but that's all. I was implying other things that this post talks about. For me the idea that actresses also don't want to let go seems to be true. It's about small things really. About how almost all of them still have avatars and banners of Flowers characters on social media. Or about how Sakura Ayane got all flustered and happy when she was on a seiyuu talk show a few years ago and another guest named Erika Yaegaki as their favourite role/character of hers. Yes, small things like that.
last edited at Jul 21, 2022 1:45AM
There already exists a small bunch of unofficial fan translations of supplementary materials (audio dramas, a couple of extras from Couleur, stuff like that), and that library will only grow with months and years to come. (If my JP->EN and JP->"my native language" translation skills didn't suck as much as they suck in their current state, I would probably join the choir myself.)
Flowers has a microscopic, but dedicated and, frankly, unhealthily obsessed fanbase lol (especially Chinese-speaking fans, they are completely unhinged and there are a lot more of them in comparison to a Western portion of the Flowers community). To avoid posting potentially forum rule-breaking links, I suggest you google up Flowers fan wiki and continue from there.
Most importantly, however, the fanbooks, Coleur, and the Anniversary book would be wonderful additions to my shelf and I'd love to be able to actually read them without trying to decipher google lens' machine translation.
Sugina-sensei said that Couleur's production was very costly (it's a very girthy 250-page full color artbook), so, unfortunately, there won't be another print run.
They are, however, are planning to continue to make more drama CDs.
last edited at Jul 20, 2022 10:55AM
So... My reply has been in the making for three days now and will still take at least as much time to be fully ready for shipping. Partially it's because I don't have free time and energy for writing a proper response in a short timeframe which I'd be satisfied with myself. Partially, though, I needed some time to gather my thoughts, because I've decided to radically change my approach to constructing and presenting my argumentation.
There is a point of interest that I wish to talk about separately though.
Say, would you be willing to believe me if I told you I was absolutely ready to sell my kidney for charity if I lost a bet I had made with myself prior to Hiver's release? Which bet? That the finale of the series would have a tragic "esu" love story which "happened a long time ago" incorporated into it. This was the only upfront expectation I had for Hiver. And I'm so inhumanly glad that I was right on the mark.
Oh, and another thing actually. I have a peculiar impression that the deconstruction of class S in Flowers was something of a dialogue, a "negotiation" rather that just "deconstruction". I don't really know why I want to call it that way. It feels to me that even if in the very end Flowers defies and denies negative aspects of class S, it takes out of it something positive, powerful and joyful, something that I didn't see presented in any other class S-themed yuri work to that extent: community, sisterhood. I'd say that even Maria-sama ga miteru isn't that committed to that aspect of the genre, because it pays a huge attention to senpai-kohai relationship model instead. But Flowers gifted me with sisterhood of peers, of equals, and I will forever be grateful for this gift.
Also, a month ago I found this. I relate to it so much I could scream.
Honestly, I fear that I will require professional psychological intervention at some point in order to sever those incredibly powerful parasocial bonds I've formed not just with the girls, but with the entirety of Flowers for reasons I might not be ready to openly discuss, because I'm afraid that I will unintentionally unweave the rainbow if I do so, and for another completely different cause.
last edited at Jul 20, 2022 10:11AM
But there is also some very positive stuff, like when Yuzuriha is grilling Erika regarding her crush on Suoh. It's cute to know that before Chidori entered her life, Erika had one-sided feelings for her bookworm buddy. It makes me wonder what a route centered on those feelings would've been like. And yet, it's also endearing to see how her feelings for Chidori have helped her move past that crush. The relief when Chidori came in during that scene was very cute.
Hmm, it didn't feel to me as if she was grilling Erika based on vocal delivery of those lines, more like inquiring her as in "Yaegaki-kun, what the heck, care to tell?". But yeah, it was so sweet and heartwarming. And the scene of Suoh and Chidori cooking pancakes for Erika was such a wonderful fluffy moment, especially when Chidori was like "You're kind, smart and beautiful, I see why Erika had a crush on you".
(Also I get a kick out of those two negative Steam reviews whose authors are angry primarily about the whole Erika's crush on Suoh lmao. No, Suoh did not flirt with Erika, not once, please clean your glasses or give them Rikka for the love of god lol.)
Ultimately, 8.5 or 9/10, I hope one day Miki Sugina and Innocent Grey will hurt me once more with a wonderful yuri.
Sugina Miki and Shimizu Hatsumi. Without her there would be no Erisuoh...sorry, I mean no Flowers. I have no idea how they've met each other beyond what Sugina told in one of the interviews, but it definitely was a match made in heaven. Both of them were treating Flowers as a small passion project rather than a commercially viable enterprise (Sugina even invested his own savings into development).
I realize that this post is barely readable because of the formatting, but I don't know how to improve it. So, with that out of the way...
To elaborate on why I think this is bad writing, here are some suggestions of what Suoh could have at least tried instead in all games combined. That's just a couple of things at the top of my head, but I remember having way more ideas when I read the other volumes.
1. Contact Mayuri's family. She never even tried.
2. Bring up her disappearance to child protection services (in case her family did not know her location)
3. Actually properly search the premises of the Basquiat's land. That mansion was 2 hours away by foot, but with a bike this would have been trivial.
4. The moment Mayuri physically appeared in a room over she only had to go to her room and cut off her escape. While during their first meeting I may have been able to forgive her inaction due to shock, the second and third time do not have that luxury. If the issue is that Suoh alone is not capable of it, she could have asked her crew of friends to block off all exits. Yes, Mayuri would not have been happy, but by forcing her into a proper conversation this would have been resolved in a day.
5. This one is less of an instant solution and more of a question how blind Suoh is, but she did investigate the specimen room thoroughly for a while (the game went out of its way to repeatedly point that out), yet she didn't find the letters by Sion and Kifune? The ones that literally have the name "Sion Basquiat" on them? Why did it take Rikka finding them to get this clue? This is just a poor excuse to have Rikka contribute.
6. Most of Angraecum's history sounds like it can be found on a Wikipedia page. Suoh could have used her 3 different breaks to leave the academy and connect to the internet for research. This story often feels like it wants to take place in the 1960s and the only reason it doesn't is that the writer can't make movie and book references of more recent stuff then.
1 and 2. I don't really understand how exactly she'd be able to do any of that in the first place. And you might be forgetting that Dalia explicitly told Suoh that Mayuri left the academy of her own free will, and when Suoh tried to inquire about her again, Dalia responded with "she had her own reasons". None of the staff she has talked to seemed to be suspecting anything weird about Mayuri suddenly leaving the academy, because it happens all the time. This is not an actual disappearance. Suoh begins to suspect something, to think that there might be an actor behind Mayuri's disappearance only in Automne.
4. I've reread the scene of their second meeting and I don't agree. Suoh still can't control herself emotionally during their second meeting. And during the third one there's this line: "Emotion surges up in me and I shout through the wall. If we both want to see one another so desperately, then why are we still relegated to speaking through walls?". This is just one of many examples when she relays her mental and emotional state during her meetings with Mayuri in that manner. You might see this as a narrative contrivance, but I see it just as "this is how she is". She even says once she's afraid that she won't see Mayuri again if she will tell about her meetings to her friends. She can't really explain why she feels and does what she feels and does, why she is so deeply afraid of facing Mayuri directly during those meetings will result in her losing her forever. Again, before second meeting she even says "I don't even need to see her, just let me hear her voice once again".
5. Are you referring to Suoh searching the specimen room while she was looking into Nerine's blackmailing story? Yes, I realize that Yuzuriha was trying to lead her to the letter, but they didn't have a name written on the outside, only on the inside in the text itself. To be honest, it's doesn't really matter. Why "she didn't notice because she simply didn't" isn't a plausible enough explanation to you? People are often extremely myopic when the thing they are searching for is right in front of them, it's kind of a thing with Suoh. She didn't even realize that she was supposed to look for some kind of an item instead of another vague piece of information. And I wouldn't call it Rikka's contribution, it was just a pure coincidence which results in the whole group reading those letters together. Rikka's real contribution is shown when she allows Hokama to come out of her shell during the first investigation, and that's also a point of character development for her, because you can clearly see that another person with whom Suoh is unfamiliar trusts her completely.
6. This...sounds like something that would come completely out of left field in this story. It'd lead to such a wild tonal whiplash. And this leads me to my final point.
If I'm being fully honest, I don't really see much of a point in discussing these specific gripes on these specific plot points, because we'll go back and forth infinitely and indefinitely while talking about them, since one can easily drown in these "what if" scenarios and their myriad excessive details. I simply think that all of these criticisms stem from you reading and analyzing the story from a purely realistic, a logical perspective. (Please don't take it personally, but a few of these plot-related gripes resemble CinemaSins-level extreme nitpicking to me. A bike and a search on the Internet, really? What about the Great Eagles, should have they simply carried the hobbits to the Mount Doom?) But I fully believe that this is not that kind of story, and that this manner of interpretation will do nothing but hurt your experience with it. The other day I've had a talk with another person about this aspect of the series' storytelling and they've said this: "Yes, it's very obvious that if you try to analyze the entirety of the series only through lens of realism, it simply WILL fall apart...but there is no point in applying this mentality to this narrative, because this is not what matters in this specific story".
Please pardon my crude analogy, but you wouldn't analyze a cubist painting from a perspective of how anatomically correct human faces and bodies on such a piece are, would you? And while the analogy is crude, the principle is the same. Pretty much in every example of fictional writing, unless it's explicitly based on real events, the verisimilitude, the internal logic of a fictitious world, is absolutely paramount. If verisimilitude, and, by extension, suspension of disbelief, are not challenged by internal inconsistencies, if the rules of fictional world and the cause-and-effect chains are not broken, then it shouldn't matter in the slightest if the events of the story aren't plausible or viable from a realistic perspective. And the world of Flowers is kind of a secondary world. It's a small, confined paracosm. It not just tries to appear as if was set in the 1960s or other similarly distant time period. It is designed from the ground up to work this way. It exists in two realities at the same time. It's purposefully anachronistic in every regard, starting from its prose (which is not quite evident in the English version) and its setting, which has even more archaic elements than something like Marimite. It has one foot placed in modern age — and modern cultural references only help to establish this link — and another in a remote historical era, maybe even in the 1910s-1920s. It has its head in the clouds of 'class S' chronotope, but its feet are planted on the ground of the modern genre conventions. It purposefully omits verbal and visual depictions of any modern technology, except of a very few specific mentions. And Hiver goes even further than previous entries and blends reality and "fairy tale" into a single inseparable entity. It's a narrative in which its core themes and the Japanese-specific concept of sekaikan govern everything else, which doesn't mean that the characters are not important — they are the very soul of this story after all — but it means that they are created after everything else that I've mentioned. And plot, the linear progression of events, in Flowers is nothing but one giant contrivance to me, always has been. I don't see any value in it, because I've always perceived it as nothing but a vehicle for transporting the story from point A to point B.
Furthermore, a lot of the characters' actions can be attributed to one thing. I see that many people do seem to forget that the cast consists of quite literally 14-15 years old teenagers, and not just of regular teens, but of girls with various psychological problems or traumatic experiences. While they are clearly a cut above their age group in terms of academic ability and intelligence, they are, nonetheless, still only teenagers. What's worse, because they are definitely smarter than your average teenager, many of them often do random chaotic things under the assumption that they are smart, rational and in control of themselves, while in reality they are often anything but (this is quite a natural depiction; source: my past teenage self). They lack real-life experiences, knowledge and deep self-awareness to deal with these scenarios and situations as a fully mature adult person would be able to. The writing consistently portrays them as being unable to control their mental state and emotional reactions, as one would totally expect from their age group. If one would be willing to be more cynical and skeptical on purpose, roughly 90% of the story in Flowers could be written off as a completely avoidable teenage melodrama drama because it, quite literally, is a teenage melodrama. So, yes, "they are fourteen". I'd also describe some of the girls as possessing of an overactive imagination. Suoh is the prime example of this. Her inner imaginarium is incredibly rich and vivid, because she perceives the reality around her through the lens of hundreds of fictional stories which she had consumed during her lifetime while being almost completely deprived of common experiences. She is much more
naive and oblivious in comparison to, say, Erika or Yuzuriha, because she really lacks the experience of dealing with individuals and with interpersonal relationships. You wonder why she "didn't do this or that" as if you want her to be thinking and acting as rationally as possible — and this is pretty much an answer to the "why" question.
It's very obvious that she cannot control her train of thought when she is overwhelmed by emotions, especially in Hiver, in which her POV is of an unreliable narrator variety. I'd say that her mind had begun to cloud in Automne's extra already, and in Hiver she is very deeply obsessed with Mayuri to the point that she believes that she really needs to be saved from danger, some kind of force that supposedly keeps them apart. And when her fears, doubts and anxieties manifest through the spectre of her stepmother, she antagonizes with this dark side of hers and immediately shuts it down every single time, because of course she doesn't want to think about a possibility that what she is doing is...not exactly wrong, but kind of erroneous. Her perception of reality is skewed because this whole thing is so incredibly personal to her; in Erika's own words, she is incapable of thinking straight when it comes to Mayuri, and that's why she starts to progress only when she finally opens up to her friends in Chapter 5, because she desperately needs some fresh perspectives, even if it's something as simple as "the key is actually just a regular key" (which is another example of her mental myopia, she really does see everything as some kind of a mystery puzzle).
It all culminates in the fact that Mayuri's actions do not make sense. On any level. She wishes to give that old lady a bit of happiness before she passes away. She has abondenment issues with her mother and used her as a replacement for that motherly figure in her life. So far it is all very understandable. But why did she have to lie or hide it? Why could she not be with Granny Elder for a period of time after attending school like normal? The woman quite directly believes Mayuri is Sion and still attending the school so there aren't even any incongruences in that set-up. Even if she had to give her intensive care for most of the day for some reason, Mayuri had NO reason to cut all ties with Suoh and her friends at all. Even if they met more rarely, it would have been fine. Even if they just sent each other letters it would have been fine! This contrivance becomes more inexcusable when we take to mind that Mayuri was told that Granny Elder would only be under those delusions for around 3 months. If it was that short on average, why did Mayuri have to cut ties with Suoh at all and ask her to forget her? Yes, eventually it turned out that the delusion did not end, because Mayuri was too similar to Sion, but that was not originally intended to happen. At worst Mayuri could have lied that she was going to some kind of extra-curricular art course far away for a few months. This all boils down to the conclusion that Mayuri had no reason to act the way she did.
If it was that short on average, why did Mayuri have to cut ties with Suoh at all and ask her to forget her?
First of all, I want to outline this specific part, because I do not believe that the "Mayuri asked Suoh to forget her" thing ever happened before Hiver. She really left without a word, she didn't even ask Dalia to relay anything to Suoh.
...Okay, I don't quite get it. Do you truly believe that Mayuri would've cut ties with Suoh and the rest if the Basquiats, Dalia specifically, would've allowed her not to? It's very obvious that the Basquiats have been trying to keep this whole thing hidden under the rug for 20 years. How would you explain the mysteries of the Tulpa of Agape and the Goddess of Truth being so persistent for two decades then? Why would Dalia be so adamant in her attempts of shutting down Suoh's investigations? No, there is only one plausibility in my opinion: the students that take the role aren't given a choice, they accept it fully on the Basquiats' terms. I would even assume that they didn't allow these girls to return to the academy, because it would immediately raise eyebrows and questions, and also why else would these girls need preferential treatment for college and universities of their choice if they were allowed to resume their study as normal anyway.
Let's return to Mayuri's internal reasoning, because she literally spills it out during one of her final POVs: "...She taught me that sometimes lies can be a kindness. Her words still linger with me today. And that's probably why... I couldn't tell my Amitie the truth. Even though I knew she sought the truth about all else, I chose to lie to her. And because of that little white lie back at the end of spring, she's been suffering ever since. I once thought I wanted the truth too; then I learned of my mother's betrayal, and a part of me died inside. That's why — no, that's the excuse I give as to why I'm crying as I watch myself sit atop her lap in happier times. I should have trusted my Amitie — I should have trusted Suoh Shirahane. I needn't have feared that I would be betrayed again. She would still have been there for me, even if I told her the truth. Her heart isn't as fickle as my mother's..."
All of the Seven Mysteries have one crucial thing in common: they all are lies used for covering up the truth or other lies, for embellishing reality, "adorning it with flowers" to "soften the blow". They are all born from and are being called upon when someone acts dumb, foolish or selfish. We've experienced this with the Sasakis two times in Printemps and in Automne, also during the Shapeshifter incident, etc. Every single one of those mysteries is a trivial thing that gets completely blown out of proportion because people are cowards and are selfish (which doesn't contradict the idea that those same people are capable of good things). It happens every day: people do something stupid or selfish yet mundane and insignificant, but they choose to conjure up a little lie to hide the truth, then they create more lies to cover previous lies, and all of this mess snowballs into one big lie. And Mayuri had relied on the Goddess of Truth mystery to cover up her own lie, which was her promise of being together with Suoh. Yes, sure, during the dream sequence at the end of Hiver she says "I should've told Suoh Shirahane the truth", but it's just wishful thinking at this point. Her abandonment trauma is not really about her using Mother Elder as a patchwork for her wounded heart, but about the fact that she was afraid that Suoh would've abandoned her just as her mother did if she had told her the truth — or, as she said, maybe this is just an excuse to hide behind.
By the way, recall the Return of the Veil scene in Printemps; this is when Mayuri gives her definitive answer to Dalia when she whispers to her something that Suoh can't hear. She had made her choice when she accepted Dalia's proposal, and by making this choice she betrayed Suoh's trust because she herself was afraid of being abandoned again. It's as simple as that. What that fear unfounded and irrational? Yes, it was, but it doesn't matter in retrospect. Is it an understandable fear, even if irrational and unfounded? I'd say that it is.
You might be wondering "but if she had resolved to stay by Allium's side, then why did she begin to change her mind in Hiver at the end?". I think this is answered during her POVs. She simply didn't expect that she wouldn't be able to forget about Suoh, and the more time had passed, the stronger her yearning for Suoh was, and it was exacerbated further when she was able to talk to her during their meetings. She wants to be with Suoh, but also with Allium. She deeply wants both, yet she knows that she can have only one. That's why she is so extremely conflicted in Hiver: as an example of this, she agrees to switch with Chidori during the stage play to give Suoh a fleeting moment of happiness, but then she flees, which changes only in the "retelling", i.e. in the second reading/playthrough.
Honesty, this whole case reminds me of a criticism some people throw at Automne when they say that Nerine's motivation for choosing Yuzuriha in the True End is never explained and that her character is "underutilized". I disagree with all of these assessments as I think that the amount of information provided in both cases is sufficient for effective portrayal.
There was also no reason for the entire cast and narrative to portray Elder as some kind of villain and snake. There was never a real antagonist. There wasn't even any danger. Why did everyone act like Suoh was playing with fire, when at most she would have uncovered a sad truth about the headmaster of the academy? What could the possibly have done, expel her?
I very much doubt that the entire cast was portraying Mother Elder as a villain. It was Yuzuriha who told the "snake" thing to Suoh, and she is also the only person who had proclaimed The Tulpa of Agape to be the oldest of the Seven Mysteries, but you have to remember that she had only part of the information, she didn't see the whole picture. Mayuri was just saying stuff like "it's too dangerous" and really nothing else. And, yes, of course there was no real danger to Suoh. What exactly surprises you here, though? That Dalia was trying to ward Suoh off by any means available to her, which includes lying to her and trying to scare her? The only danger was the actual truth behind Mayuri's disappearance, which is why Mayuri initially also tried to ward her off.
And I don't think it's humanly possible to get more antagonistic than Dalia, heh. Antagonist is just someone who opposes the protagonist, and she was behind all attempts of stopping Suoh from discovering the truth in Hiver.
In the end, the Basquiat family was hiding not Allium herself. They were hiding the whole intermingled mess of events and things which were directly tied to their family tragedy. And they were hiding their own selfishness. Yes, every single girl that played Sion had accepted this role by her own free will. But the Basquiats were also at fault here, they are the enablers. Even their treatment of Mother Elder is highly morally questionable in my opinion. Allium was something of a coping mechanism for them and they were willing to do to lie and cover things up in order to keep it that way for...20 years. Which is, like, a very long time and a big stack of lies if you ask me.
Do not even get me started on the alternate endings, which somehow portray it like Granny Elder would have lived for years on end and Mayuri would have been stuck with her way past Suoh's graduation. Everything falls apart.
Are you referring to Mother Elder dying in the Good End, but living a few more years in non-canon endings? I had a very firm impression that the way she passed in the Good End was induced by something like an emotional shock after she finally awakened from her "dream" (the text explicitly tells, for example, that her eyes fix on Suoh for a moment and there's a sudden flash of recognition, which implies that she saw Sayuri in her, a girl who in her mind should've been dead for many years).
This story would have been better if Mayuri had just stuck around and the final game was about discovering Sion Basquiat's secret for different reasons.
It would've been a very different story revolving around an almost different set of themes, not "same story but better"; you'd have to completely rewrite a large portion of the plot and a large portion of character development progression to accommodate this "Mayuri sticking around" idea into narrative.
Continuing with badly conveyed information and motivations, I'm surprised that someone would so avidly defend how Yuzuriha and Nerine were treated in Hiver. I completely agree with Lilification that they were handled quite poorly. Yes, you can somehow piece together that Dhalia offered them a deal, but this is a joke. What did Dhalia actually call them out of elopment for? To send a letter she could have written herself and play guard dog in front of Dhalia's room? On the off chance that Suoh and all her friends are too dumb to tell that this is the worst act in history? You are seriously telling me that the two girls who are wanted for running away from home are willing to publically appear at the academy (with uniforms to boot) and that Dhalia was okay with putting them at risk? And for what? As we established, Suoh discovering the secret barely amounts to anything and Yuzuriha was the one who gave Suoh basically all of her hints anyway.
I want to reiterate once more that this was not a "deal". "Deal" implies mutual partnership, but Dalia had manipulated them into doing all these things.
The blackmail letter was nothing but a pretext for Yuzuriha establishing direct contact with Suoh. Only a dumbwit wouldn't understand that Suoh would crack this puzzle pretty quickly, and because Yuzu isn't a complete dumbwit — except when she is — she left a couple of clues in the letter only her and Suoh could read. And when they finally meet face to face, she uses this letter, these clues specifically, to her own advantage. This time instead of her familiar jokester attire she wears a mask of the villain. Her job? Scare the living hell out of Suoh, break her morale and shake her resolve by making her realize that even people which she considered her friends can betray her for their own egoistic reasons. Only this approach could affect someone as persistent and tenacious as Suoh. This is not something what Dalia could've done herself, because she doesn't have a close relationship with Suoh, she is just a teacher to her. Also, it's just a personal matter for Dalia, and as a member of the academy's staff she cannot allow it to affect her formal relationship with Suoh, who is also the council president now, of all things. This is why she resorts to a covert tactic like this, not because she can't find anyone else to guard her room.
Speaking of "the worst act in history": are you sure this was just an act? The "cartoon villains" part was definitely a silly smokescreen, but do you remember what Yuzuriha tells Erika in the chapel? Did you question why they left the academy without telling anyone and didn't plan to return in the first place, until Dalia commanded them to? Because they too have made their choices. They've decided to completely abandon their previous lives, erase everything and start from square one. They've been together through thick and thin for almost a decade, while they've made friends with the rest of the cast only a few months ago. As much as it pains me to acknowledge this, it's not really even a choice for them. It's just...a natural order of things to them.
If you wish to argue that they had to be in Hiver to resolve their plotline, then maybe it should have been actually resolved? Because it really wasn't at all. You get a single hint that they had a deal with the Basquiats, but they have no proper send-off with anyone but Suoh and they just return to the same status quo we saw them at in Automne. Character writing wise this was a bad integration and a missed opportunity.
Overall, I argue that them being in Hiver is integral to Yuzuriha's growth. I did say that the third confrontation is when she gets her final portion of character development in the series. If you think about it, what she does in this scene is a bit similar to what she already did for Suoh in Automne, but on a much bigger scale.
In Automne she was able to get what she wanted and then some, because Nerine sacrificed her own identity and her ambitions in favor of being with Yuzuriha in sickness and in health, mirroring what Yuzuriha did for her after her illness when they were kids. And this is what forces Yuzu's hand in Hiver. She doesn't really wish to slaughter the chicks, but she is prepared to do it if it guarantees Nerine's happiness...and that's what she probably tells herself so she could sleep better at night. It doesn't take a genius to understand that this wish is selfish in nature. The same goes for Nerine, because it's Yuzu in whom she was able to find salvation and happiness by accepting her love and willingly sacrificing a larger part of her own self, finally, after years of tormenting self-hatred, cowardice and fear. Of course, who'd want to loose the happiness that you were able to attain only recently?
But after actually experiencing the full extent of what Suoh is willing to go through for Mayuri, after realizing that she truly will stop at nothing, Yuzuriha finally recognizes that what she does is, ultimately, selfish. Of course, what Suoh does is also selfish, she even says it out loud, which absolutely doesn't mean that it's something bad on its own. It just means that Suoh is the same as her, that she also has the right for happiness. Yuzuriha accepts that she isn't the only one who is struggling and fighting for happiness, that she has no right to deny it for Suoh. And then she yields again and sheds her evergreen foliage once more. She is finally able to put aside her deeply held wants for someone's else benefit.
We can agree to disagree if there should have been a "more proper" send-off for them, I just do not see it as a necessity. It would have been too sugar-sweet for my personal taste. I also feel like it wouldn't really be in line with Yuzuriha's character. Just as an example, she didn't directly apologize to Erika for being an asshole to her in Automne. She didn't give any farewells to anyone in Automne, unless you want to count that short internal monologue before her departure. So why would she do these things in this situation? Just out of respect? This is how she simply is, and I accept her how she is. This kind of intimate closure is what I appreciate more, because it gives a very bittersweet feeling to their final departure. Actually, it is very similar to Mayuri End, but while Mayuri End gets overwritten, redacted and painted over, theirs doesn't.
I think that the reason why Yuzuriha appears before Suoh at the end is because she truly shares a unique emotional bond with her, a bond which was created between them in Automne. That's why this farewell scene felt so deeply personal to me.
The part about Yuzuriha getting attacked gets absolutely no resolution at all beyond implying the Basquiats were involved, but not for what reason or whom exactly. This is the final chapter, don't cliffhanger bait people with something that should have been resolved within the confines of its own plot.
I understand that it may be frustrating for you, but there exists no rule in writing which says that every loose end should have a perfectly clear resolution or defines how exactly clear and well-explained it should be. It has a resolution: Yuzuriha just tells Suoh the info in her typical clandestine manner. This is how she's always been, it's in character.
I do not care if there are audio dramas or additional materials that do explain it, this is bad form.
And, as I said, none of this information is essential, in no way this is an actual cliffhanger. I'm pretty sure that Innocent Grey didn't expect that everyone and their mother would be able buy a very expensive limited artbook anyway. I didn't even know that any of these bonus details existed outside of the game until I read about them three weeks later after finishing Hiver.
There are only two members of the Basquiat remaining in Saint Angraecum. The first one is Dalia herself and she is a non-candidate, because Yuzuriha wouldn't be able to interact with her normally in Automne if it was her doing. This leaves you with only a single option: Iberis, that mysterious woman whose voice you can hear twice during Mayuri/Sion opening sequences. I don't think that it's that hard of a puzzle or even a puzzle at all.
last edited at Jul 18, 2022 1:42AM
I'd very much like to hear your thoughts. (To be honest, there's literally nothing but Flowers in my head, because I've been discussing Hiver with dozens of people 24 hours a day for the past month practically ad nauseam, and as a result of those discussions I now have a bunch of ideas and conclusions, and also a sever brain damage lol.)
Yuzu and Neri not making an appearance in Hiver wouldn't really make narrative sense, because Automne ends with a cliffhanger which gets a resolution only in Hiver. Detailed reasoning for their return exists in the official Flowers artbook 'Couleur'. I will provide a summary, but I do not believe that this information is somehow necessary or crucial, it's more of a writer's side notes.
Basically, after Yuzu and Neri left the academy, their absence was almost immediately reported to Dalia (iirc by Mio Hagiwara, Neri's Amitie whic makes an appearance in Hiver, who had noticed an alarming lack of Nerine's personal belongings in their shared room). Dalia panicked and asked Katabami to intercept them at the train station, because she had realized that this is where Yuzu and Neri were heading. She had instructed Katabami to deliver a message, in which Dalia was asking Yuzuriha of a few things: to allow her to become their legal guardian (otherwise no rent for them I guess, even if they'd be able to find sketchy illegal part-time jobs), to allow her to provide financial help to them, and, finally, that Yuzuriha would agree to regularly send letters with reports about their situation and their well-being.
What happened after these events isn't fully clear, but you can pretty much narrow it down to a single possibility: when Dalia realized that Suoh was getting closer and closer to the Basquiat family's secret, she "kindly asked" Yuzuriha (no quotation marks really necessary, to be honest, because that's how this type of manipulation works, you don't need to act forceful or intimidating since the other party understands the implications) to come back and put a stop to this. Why Yuzuriha specifically? For three main reasons, I suppose: because Yuzu is the only student who some things about their family secret (only partially, though; for example, she's never been in the secret room, she only read the letters in the specimen room; also there's another thing tied to the greenhouse incident in Printemps that is implied in Automne/Hiver and gets a more detailed explanation in Couleur), because Dalia couldn't directly intervene herself, and maybe also because Yuzu is the former council president and Suoh still respects her and sees her as an authority.
I'm gonna be honest: I'm quite glad that none of that stuff is in the Hiver itself. It's a mark of a skilled writer in my eyes: you conjure up a clear linear chain of events, you describe characters' motives with surgical precision — and then you start to remove these details, but not too many of them, because you have to leave enough clues to collapse the infinite void of possibilities and leave only the most logically plausible explanation or maybe a couple. For example, you can easily surmise that it's Dalia who controls them (she all but directly tells about it in the mansion) and that they're somehow "indebted" to her. You don't know how she was able to manipulate Yuzu, but it's not really important, because you simply realize that there's only one thing, or rather one person, for whose sake Yuzuriha would betray her ideals, her principles (that's another "betrayal" of hers, or maybe even the most important one) and work against her friends.
I especially enjoy the scene of the final confrontation in the library because of this intended vagueness (and also because it's such a pivotal moment to Yuzu's development). It carries so much emotion, every line that Yuzuriha and the girls exchange has a weight to it exactly because the reasoning, the meaning is mostly implied rather than is being told directly (Yuzu even very explicitly denies you access to information when she tells Suoh "It's none of you business").
last edited at Jul 17, 2022 5:55AM
I've "finished" Hiver.
Or, to be precise, I was finished by Hiver.
I've no idea how to properly, adequately and fully describe what I've seen, heard and felt for the last two days and 25 hours without resorting to baby talk and onomatopoeia. This is no mere mortal, secular masterpiece — this a full-on cathartic religious experience. I've shed more tears of joy and sorrow during it than during any other entry.
Currently I'm just marinating in emotions, feelings and thoughts, so I'm not planning on writing an actual review on the series yet. But I'll mention one thing: Hiver cements "love" as the core theme of the series, and not just in a trite romantic sense. Over the year, these girls have become each other's sisterly and motherly figures, friends, fans, admirers and lovers. They will do anything for each other, anything to lift and to support each other, anything to protect each other, and that is the most blindingly beautiful part of an otherwise incredibly dark, compared to other entries, narrative of Hiver. Forget Automne's brooding and soul-crushing tonality, because this right here is the most oppressive, harrowing, freezing-cold and sometimes straight up terrifying tone and atmosphere in all of the series.
Yet in darkness search for light and hope.
IIRC, you don't have to wait, because JAST will e-mail Steam keys to people that preorder physical edition. Better to ask them on Discord or Twitter though, not sure if I'm correct.
last edited at May 24, 2022 6:44AM
The next four weeks are going to be the longest four weeks ever for me. Before the release date for Hiver was announced, I was in the "it's fine" mode, even expecting it to come out during winter 2022-2023. But now I'm like "GIVE IT TO ME RIGHT NOW, CAN'T YOU SEE THAT I'M LITERALLY DYING?!".
It's not that I need situations or characters to have to remind me of my real-life experiences in order for a story to get an emotional response or some other kind of strong reaction out of me. I'd like to arrogantly think of myself as of a quite empathetic person who can, with relative success, relate to other people, whose experiences may have nothing to do with my personal experiences.
But I simply have a vague, undefined feeling that this specific manga was written with that kind of "relatability" in mind, as if the mangaka was trying to act all smart and smug, trying to hit practically all male yuri readership in one shot, but the pellet spread of the shot was too tight, too narrow.
Idk, maybe it's the extremely one-dimensional characterization of the MC that throws me off. I can't really see a living, breathing person behind his "extreme yuri obsession" façade. It's like all of his personality and all of his life can be equated to this obsession. That's fine for a few introductory chapters, but eventually it becomes tiresome, annoying and boring. Maybe he is a walking and talking "yuri danshi up to 11" stereotype for a reason, but so far I can't see that reason.
last edited at Apr 17, 2022 9:05AM
I guess I should say a few words about the manga itself, lol.
While I don't have a "Who is the demographic and the target audience for this?" question, I have a slightly different one that had been often popping into my head while I was reading this: "Are those jokes and situations supposed to be relatable in some way?". Don't get me wrong, I'm all for self-deprecating humor and bigger-than-life, over-the-top chuunibyou fantasies, but in this case something feels...kinda off. I can't really put my finger on it yet (sometimes-foreshadowing-is-relatively obvious.mp4), but for some reason I don't vibe with the MC or his thought process.
last edited at Apr 13, 2022 10:46PM
Speaking of the genre's history, while "Beautiful and Innocent" is a good source of general information on that topic, it doesn't go into much detail about esu and nuances of Nobuko Yoshiya's writing style and career. For this reason, I highly recommend Michiko Suzuki's "Becoming Modern Women: Love and female identity in prewar Japanese literature and culture". More specifically, it has a chapter dedicated to "Two Virgins in the Attic".
Thanks for the recs! Do you know if there's any demographic survey regarding yuri readers other than this one and dynasty's a few years ago? I've actually been wondering and serching for good data and research on yuri for a while. it'd also be great if we could reconduct the survey on dynasty, it was really interesting. I know about works relating the history of yuri but not so much about who reads it, a sort of sociology of yuri.
Hmm, no, not really, but I haven't looked into it for a few years. I suppose that sources in Japanese have more of similar surveys and researches, but my current level of Japanese is too low for me to be able to even extensively search for, yet alone comprehensively read such publications.
last edited at Apr 13, 2022 10:48PM
Speaking of the genre's history, while "Beautiful and Innocent" is a good source of general information on that topic, it doesn't go into much detail about esu and nuances of Nobuko Yoshiya's writing style and career. For this reason, I highly recommend Michiko Suzuki's "Becoming Modern Women: Love and female identity in prewar Japanese literature and culture". More specifically, it has a chapter dedicated to "Two Virgins in the Attic".
last edited at Apr 9, 2022 3:29PM
Well, I'm quite voracious when it comes to yuri VNs, but I'm also picky and quite snobbish, lol.
That is an unfortunate combination indeed, haha. Though I would consider myself quite voracious as well, I do find joy in some less stellar or high production works. Limiting yourself too much can be problematic. I find that often times the more indie works that lack polish have strong imagination and writing behind them to make up for it.
I don't think that I limit myself on purpose. I'm all for indie production (well, technically the absolute vast majority of VNs are indie; even Flowers can be considered indie, because the initial PC releases of all four games were self-published, Prototype did help IG only with the console releases). It's simply just that something either immediately clicks with me and I go "huh, I want to read it, right now if possible" or my reaction is just "hmmm, this looks mildly interesting, maybe I'll check it out when I'm out of the stuff that I currently want to read/watch/listen to".
Ah, the localised Curse of Kudan that was interoduced prior, yes? It's one of the few I haven't read yet. I found the premise a bit overbearing, but you sure seem to sing its praises. Might be worth looking into.
You mean the ghost story/mystery part was a bit overbearing?
Then it would take place after Automne in the timeline... but probably much later. The Drama CD mentioned Yuzuriha working in a book store, so her being a real photographer is quite the time jump. I knew the drama CDs are canon to the ture ending timeline, but this is a nice easter egg that makes it feel more real.
In short, Yuzuriha is the reason why Ichigo got into professional photography (the fact itself was mentioned in the FLOWERS 20th Anniversary Special Book, but the reasoning was presented in Strelitzia Drama CD).
(InnoGrey sure love FLOWERS, don't they. And Sugina Miki doesn't seem to really care that the series is not as commercially viable as IG's early titles. They keep writing (or, should I say, it's Hatsumi who continues to write new stories with religious zeal) and recording official audio dramas every year or year and a half, and they don't seem to be stopping, because the new one is coming out in a couple of weeks. They truly love the series' characters and want to see them living happy and fulfilling lives, and I'm all here for it.)
(Also, they sometimes mention how all the seiyuu became very tightly knit together as a group, which should really warm the heart of Erika's Ayane 'The Yuri Connoisseur' Sakura. Btw, there are a couple of stories about her ridiculous, hilarious and ridiculously hilarious IRL interactions with Chidori's Suzaki Aya, because, basically, both of them are quite similar to their characters in terms of their real personalities.)
last edited at Mar 31, 2022 1:47AM
I liked that the high schooler was carrying her school bag on the front while riding the train. It pays to be cautious.
Wearing your backpack on your chest is considered to be mindful and respectful first and foremost, simply because of how brutally packed regular public trains are in Japan during rush hours.
last edited at Mar 7, 2022 7:26AM
Alright, might just as well replay it, because what else am I gonna do?
Well, if you are dead set on that I would not stop you either, but if you are in need of new content to read this is the right thread for you~
If you are interested in reading a yuri related VN that is on the list or if you have any specifications for what you would like to read I can assist. There must be something you haven't tried yet, right?
Well, I'm quite voracious when it comes to yuri VNs, but I'm also picky and quite snobbish, lol. Which means that if there's a VN on this list, then it means that I either read it already or not really planning to because it doesn't capture me with its premise and/or aesthetics (visuals plus narrative themes plus music plus the general, overall vibe that a certain VN or game gives off through its marketing materials).
I'm done with Kudan no Folklore. It's not FLOWERS by any means, not even close: the visuals are of high quality, but I don't really care for the clear-cut bishojo designs of the cast and the overall aesthetic of the VN. OST is just okay-ish, nothing to write home about. But Hatsumi is always, well, Hatsumi , even if the novel, as so many other "pretty good VNs", clearly lacks a strong, prominent directorial backbone behind it (which FLOWERS is graced with by Sugina-sensei's talents and skills). As per usual, her writing is charismatic, witty and, as always, full of relatable or quirky cultural references that highlight characters' interests or parts of their personalities.
Also, I have to scream about THIS (big spoilers for the true ending of Flowers -Le volume sur automne-, Automne drama CD and a very mild spoiler for one of KnF's endings):
THERE IS AN INDIRECT REFERENCE TO YUZURIHA IN ONE OF THE ENDINGS OF KUDAN NO FOLKLORE. Like, one of the characters casually mentions that she met a beautiful, dashing girl, who has silver hair and apparently is a photographer. Given the KnF's location, which is a coastal town, this makes me want to scream even louder.
I swear to god, Hatsumi, why are you doing this to us?!
Speaking of FLOWERS, I almost forgot to mention that the main composer for Aoishiro is also MANYO and OP/ED are also done by Shimotsuki Haruka (but in a duet with Rita, who is another extremely prolific singer and composer on the Japanese VN/gaming scene). tl;dr: the OST there is pretty great, even gorgeous sometimes.
last edited at Feb 11, 2022 3:27AM
Been a fan of this album for 5 years now, what an intelligently composed and at the same time incredibly humane, compassionate prog record. But holy crap if I'm actually stupid. It finally occured to me that the "bury hate with the coward" line in the lyrics corresponds to the "two graves" theme woven into the first half of the lyrics. That's what they are for in the end, not for the lyrical protagonist and the 'brother' character.
Also, the way line "I will dig two graves for us" and the rest of the chorus being delivered in this gentle, caressing tone gives me shivers every single time.
last edited at Feb 3, 2022 10:35PM
It doesn't deliver on the Yuri? I knew it was a plot focused VN, but with all the different heroines I thought romance would still play a major role. It would be a shame if such a high production game lacked in the most important (haha) aspect, but sometimes a good story makes up for a lacking romance.
Oh, no, I was talking about the true route/ending specifically. And maybe I'm just misremembering things. Do keep in mind that I'd played it more than a decade ago.
Alright, might just as well replay it, because what else am I gonna do? Wait for Fuyu-hen in lethargic idleness? Ah yes, sure, why not, I love to suffer so, so much, haha, , ahahahhahahahaahahhahahhahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!