Since this thread showed back up and I've finished Hiver, I'm going to put out my wholehearted and earnest recommendation for Flowers once again. Especially now that you can go in to the whole series and experience all of the ups and downs without years of wait.

Of course, there are certain things I'm... Not necessarily unsatisfied with, but they leave an awkward feeling for me, namely... Yuzuriha and Nerine playing an antagonist role. It just seemed strange that they would come back following the events of Automne, and we're not really given much clarity on why. It's ultimately an unanswered question that I would dearly like to know the answer to.

But there is also some very positive stuff, like when Yuzuriha is grilling Erika regarding her crush on Suoh. It's cute to know that before Chidori entered her life, Erika had one-sided feelings for her bookworm buddy. It makes me wonder what a route centered on those feelings would've been like. And yet, it's also endearing to see how her feelings for Chidori have helped her move past that crush. The relief when Chidori came in during that scene was very cute.

Ultimately, 8.5 or 9/10, I hope one day Miki Sugina and Innocent Grey will hurt me once more with a wonderful yuri.

Licentious Lantern
I'd very much like to hear your thoughts. (To be honest, there's literally nothing but Flowers in my head, because I've been discussing Hiver with dozens of people 24 hours a day for the past month practically ad nauseam, and as a result of those discussions I now have a bunch of ideas and conclusions, and also a sever brain damage lol.)

Lilification
Yuzu and Neri not making an appearance in Hiver wouldn't really make narrative sense, because Automne ends with a cliffhanger which gets a resolution only in Hiver. Detailed reasoning for their return exists in the official Flowers artbook 'Couleur'. I will provide a summary, but I do not believe that this information is somehow necessary or crucial, it's more of a writer's side notes.

Basically, after Yuzu and Neri left the academy, their absence was almost immediately reported to Dalia (iirc by Mio Hagiwara, Neri's Amitie whic makes an appearance in Hiver, who had noticed an alarming lack of Nerine's personal belongings in their shared room). Dalia panicked and asked Katabami to intercept them at the train station, because she had realized that this is where Yuzu and Neri were heading. She had instructed Katabami to deliver a message, in which Dalia was asking Yuzuriha of a few things: to allow her to become their legal guardian (otherwise no rent for them I guess, even if they'd be able to find sketchy illegal part-time jobs), to allow her to provide financial help to them, and, finally, that Yuzuriha would agree to regularly send letters with reports about their situation and their well-being.

What happened after these events isn't fully clear, but you can pretty much narrow it down to a single possibility: when Dalia realized that Suoh was getting closer and closer to the Basquiat family's secret, she "kindly asked" Yuzuriha (no quotation marks really necessary, to be honest, because that's how this type of manipulation works, you don't need to act forceful or intimidating since the other party understands the implications) to come back and put a stop to this. Why Yuzuriha specifically? For three main reasons, I suppose: because Yuzu is the only student who some things about their family secret (only partially, though; for example, she's never been in the secret room, she only read the letters in the specimen room; also there's another thing tied to the greenhouse incident in Printemps that is implied in Automne/Hiver and gets a more detailed explanation in Couleur), because Dalia couldn't directly intervene herself, and maybe also because Yuzu is the former council president and Suoh still respects her and sees her as an authority.

I'm gonna be honest: I'm quite glad that none of that stuff is in the Hiver itself. It's a mark of a skilled writer in my eyes: you conjure up a clear linear chain of events, you describe characters' motives with surgical precision — and then you start to remove these details, but not too many of them, because you have to leave enough clues to collapse the infinite void of possibilities and leave only the most logically plausible explanation or maybe a couple. For example, you can easily surmise that it's Dalia who controls them (she all but directly tells about it in the mansion) and that they're somehow "indebted" to her. You don't know how she was able to manipulate Yuzu, but it's not really important, because you simply realize that there's only one thing, or rather one person, for whose sake Yuzuriha would betray her ideals, her principles (that's another "betrayal" of hers, or maybe even the most important one) and work against her friends.

I especially enjoy the scene of the final confrontation in the library because of this intended vagueness (and also because it's such a pivotal moment to Yuzu's development). It carries so much emotion, every line that Yuzuriha and the girls exchange has a weight to it exactly because the reasoning, the meaning is mostly implied rather than is being told directly (Yuzu even very explicitly denies you access to information when she tells Suoh "It's none of you business").

last edited at Jul 17, 2022 5:55AM

My thoughts on Hiver can basically be compared to my thoughts on Printemps. Messy. It lacks the polish and sharp wit of Automne in almost every regard. It was to be expected as it carried over the weakest part of Flowers, the big mystery around the Godess of Truth and Mayuri's disappearance, and drags it out till the stone is squeezed of every drop of water it ever held. It loses itself in filler chapters and side-quests that, while having served a character building purpose in Ete or Automne (and even to a lesser degree in Printemps), really are just pointless now that the story is so fixated on "solving" the mystery.

Suoh's obssession with following the detective plotline laid out before her instead of doing even a single logical thing to actually find and bring back Mayuri is pushed to its absurd extreme here. Frankly my most disliked parts of the Summer and Autumn chapters were those revolving around Suoh, which is sad, because I love her character so much. But she wastes infinite time being benched in those stories for minimal progress and then in the big finale she doesn't truly seem to be in much of a hurry either, despite physically talking to Mayuri several times.

To elaborate on why I think this is bad writing, here are some suggestions of what Suoh could have at least tried instead in all games combined. That's just a couple of things at the top of my head, but I remember having way more ideas when I read the other volumes.
1. Contact Mayuri's family. She never even tried.
2. Bring up her disappearance to child protection services (in case her family did not know her location)
3. Actually properly search the premises of the Basquiat's land. That mansion was 2 hours away by foot, but with a bike this would have been trivial.
4. The moment Mayuri physically appeared in a room over she only had to go to her room and cut off her escape. While during their first meeting I may have been able to forgive her inaction due to shock, the second and third time do not have that luxury. If the issue is that Suoh alone is not capable of it, she could have asked her crew of friends to block off all exits. Yes, Mayuri would not have been happy, but by forcing her into a proper conversation this would have been resolved in a day.
5. This one is less of an instant solution and more of a question how blind Suoh is, but she did investigate the specimen room thoroughly for a while (the game went out of its way to repeatedly point that out), yet she didn't find the letters by Sion and Kifune? The ones that literally have the name "Sion Basquiat" on them? Why did it take Rikka finding them to get this clue? This is just a poor excuse to have Rikka contribute.
6. Most of Angraecum's history sounds like it can be found on a Wikipedia page. Suoh could have used her 3 different breaks to leave the academy and connect to the internet for research. This story often feels like it wants to take place in the 1960s and the only reason it doesn't is that the writer can't make movie and book references of more recent stuff then.

Of course all of this can be chalked up to dramatization and a desire to keep the reader in suspense, but Hiver in particular does an incredibly poor job of conveying or justifying character motivations. It all culminates in the fact that Mayuri's actions do not make sense. On any level.
She wishes to give that old lady a bit of happiness before she passes away. She has abondenment issues with her mother and used her as a replacement for that motherly figure in her life. So far it is all very understandable. But why did she have to lie or hide it? Why could she not be with Granny Elder for a period of time after attending school like normal? The woman quite directly believes Mayuri is Sion and still attending the school so there aren't even any incongruences in that set-up. Even if she had to give her intensive care for most of the day for some reason, Mayuri had NO reason to cut all ties with Suoh and her friends at all. Even if they met more rarely, it would have been fine. Even if they just sent each other letters it would have been fine!
This contrivance becomes more inexcusable when we take to mind that Mayuri was told that Granny Elder would only be under those delusions for around 3 months. If it was that short on average, why did Mayuri have to cut ties with Suoh at all and ask her to forget her? Yes, eventually it turned out that the delusion did not end, because Mayuri was too similar to Sion, but that was not originally intended to happen. At worst Mayuri could have lied that she was going to some kind of extra-curricular art course far away for a few months.
This all boils down to the conclusion that Mayuri had no reason to act the way she did. There was also no reason for the entire cast and narrative to portray Elder as some kind of villain and snake. There was never a real antagonist. There wasn't even any danger. Why did everyone act like Suoh was playing with fire, when at most she would have uncovered a sad truth about the headmaster of the academy? What could they possibly have done, expel her? Not to mention that this entire deal was treated like it was one of the oldest and most deep of the Seven Mysteries, but it couldn't have been around for more than 20 years max, as Dhalia was a child when it happened. Do not even get me started on the alternate endings, which somehow portray it like Granny Elder would have lived for years on end and Mayuri would have been stuck with her way past Suoh's graduation. Everything falls apart.
This story would have been better if Mayuri had just stuck around and the final game was about discovering Sion Basquiat's secret for different reasons.

Continuing with badly conveyed information and motivations, I'm surprised that someone would so avidly defend how Yuzuriha and Nerine were treated in Hiver. I completely agree with Lilification that they were handled quite poorly. Yes, you can somehow piece together that Dhalia offered them a deal, but this is a joke. What did Dhalia actually call them out of elopment for? To send a letter she could have written herself and play guard dog in front of Dhalia's room? On the off chance that Suoh and all her friends are too dumb to tell that this is the worst act in history? You are seriously telling me that the two girls who are wanted for running away from home are willing to publically appear at the academy (with uniforms to boot) and that Dhalia was okay with putting them at risk? And for what? As we established, Suoh discovering the secret barely amounts to anything and Yuzuriha was the one who gave Suoh basically all of her hints anyway.
If you wish to argue that they had to be in Hiver to resolve their plotline, then maybe it should have been actually resolved? Because it really wasn't at all. You get a single hint that they had a deal with the Basquiats, but they have no proper send-off with anyone but Suoh and they just return to the same status quo we saw them at in Automne. Character writing wise this was a bad integration and a missed opportunity. The part about Yuzuriha getting attacked gets absolutely no resolution at all beyond implying the Basquiats were involved, but not for what reason or whom exactly. This is the final chapter, don't cliffhanger bait people with something that should have been resolved within the confines of its own plot. I do not care if there are audio dramas or additional materials that do explain it, this is bad form.
I am not exaggerating when I say that I feel Yuzuriha and Nerine's story had a better conclusion if it had stayed at Automne and the drama CDs of their eloped life in another city.

This all may sound exceptionally bitter and negative, but I want to clarify that I can only get so passionate about the shortcomings of Hiver, because I love the series and find that the really good parts of this final chapter are actually sensational. I find it simply a bit disappointing that the final chapter had to be carried mostly on character investment and emotion to make up for its manifold issues.
This post is already too long, but I will put together my thoughts on the best part of Hiver soon: The parallel story-telling and twist of Sion and Kifune's relationship with Suoh and Mayuri's.

last edited at Jul 17, 2022 6:49AM

Yeah, it's a long one

I realize that this post is barely readable because of the formatting, but I don't know how to improve it. So, with that out of the way...

To elaborate on why I think this is bad writing, here are some suggestions of what Suoh could have at least tried instead in all games combined. That's just a couple of things at the top of my head, but I remember having way more ideas when I read the other volumes.
1. Contact Mayuri's family. She never even tried.
2. Bring up her disappearance to child protection services (in case her family did not know her location)
3. Actually properly search the premises of the Basquiat's land. That mansion was 2 hours away by foot, but with a bike this would have been trivial.
4. The moment Mayuri physically appeared in a room over she only had to go to her room and cut off her escape. While during their first meeting I may have been able to forgive her inaction due to shock, the second and third time do not have that luxury. If the issue is that Suoh alone is not capable of it, she could have asked her crew of friends to block off all exits. Yes, Mayuri would not have been happy, but by forcing her into a proper conversation this would have been resolved in a day.
5. This one is less of an instant solution and more of a question how blind Suoh is, but she did investigate the specimen room thoroughly for a while (the game went out of its way to repeatedly point that out), yet she didn't find the letters by Sion and Kifune? The ones that literally have the name "Sion Basquiat" on them? Why did it take Rikka finding them to get this clue? This is just a poor excuse to have Rikka contribute.
6. Most of Angraecum's history sounds like it can be found on a Wikipedia page. Suoh could have used her 3 different breaks to leave the academy and connect to the internet for research. This story often feels like it wants to take place in the 1960s and the only reason it doesn't is that the writer can't make movie and book references of more recent stuff then.

1 and 2. I don't really understand how exactly she'd be able to do any of that in the first place. And you might be forgetting that Dalia explicitly told Suoh that Mayuri left the academy of her own free will, and when Suoh tried to inquire about her again, Dalia responded with "she had her own reasons". None of the staff she has talked to seemed to be suspecting anything weird about Mayuri suddenly leaving the academy, because it happens all the time. This is not an actual disappearance. Suoh begins to suspect something, to think that there might be an actor behind Mayuri's disappearance only in Automne.
4. I've reread the scene of their second meeting and I don't agree. Suoh still can't control herself emotionally during their second meeting. And during the third one there's this line: "Emotion surges up in me and I shout through the wall. If we both want to see one another so desperately, then why are we still relegated to speaking through walls?". This is just one of many examples when she relays her mental and emotional state during her meetings with Mayuri in that manner. You might see this as a narrative contrivance, but I see it just as "this is how she is". She even says once she's afraid that she won't see Mayuri again if she will tell about her meetings to her friends. She can't really explain why she feels and does what she feels and does, why she is so deeply afraid of facing Mayuri directly during those meetings will result in her losing her forever. Again, before second meeting she even says "I don't even need to see her, just let me hear her voice once again".
5. Are you referring to Suoh searching the specimen room while she was looking into Nerine's blackmailing story? Yes, I realize that Yuzuriha was trying to lead her to the letter, but they didn't have a name written on the outside, only on the inside in the text itself. To be honest, it's doesn't really matter. Why "she didn't notice because she simply didn't" isn't a plausible enough explanation to you? People are often extremely myopic when the thing they are searching for is right in front of them, it's kind of a thing with Suoh. She didn't even realize that she was supposed to look for some kind of an item instead of another vague piece of information. And I wouldn't call it Rikka's contribution, it was just a pure coincidence which results in the whole group reading those letters together. Rikka's real contribution is shown when she allows Hokama to come out of her shell during the first investigation, and that's also a point of character development for her, because you can clearly see that another person with whom Suoh is unfamiliar trusts her completely.
6. This...sounds like something that would come completely out of left field in this story. It'd lead to such a wild tonal whiplash. And this leads me to my final point.

If I'm being fully honest, I don't really see much of a point in discussing these specific gripes on these specific plot points, because we'll go back and forth infinitely and indefinitely while talking about them, since one can easily drown in these "what if" scenarios and their myriad excessive details. I simply think that all of these criticisms stem from you reading and analyzing the story from a purely realistic, a logical perspective. (Please don't take it personally, but a few of these plot-related gripes resemble CinemaSins-level extreme nitpicking to me. A bike and a search on the Internet, really? What about the Great Eagles, should have they simply carried the hobbits to the Mount Doom?) But I fully believe that this is not that kind of story, and that this manner of interpretation will do nothing but hurt your experience with it. The other day I've had a talk with another person about this aspect of the series' storytelling and they've said this: "Yes, it's very obvious that if you try to analyze the entirety of the series only through lens of realism, it simply WILL fall apart...but there is no point in applying this mentality to this narrative, because this is not what matters in this specific story".
Please pardon my crude analogy, but you wouldn't analyze a cubist painting from a perspective of how anatomically correct human faces and bodies on such a piece are, would you? And while the analogy is crude, the principle is the same. Pretty much in every example of fictional writing, unless it's explicitly based on real events, the verisimilitude, the internal logic of a fictitious world, is absolutely paramount. If verisimilitude, and, by extension, suspension of disbelief, are not challenged by internal inconsistencies, if the rules of fictional world and the cause-and-effect chains are not broken, then it shouldn't matter in the slightest if the events of the story aren't plausible or viable from a realistic perspective. And the world of Flowers is kind of a secondary world. It's a small, confined paracosm. It not just tries to appear as if was set in the 1960s or other similarly distant time period. It is designed from the ground up to work this way. It exists in two realities at the same time. It's purposefully anachronistic in every regard, starting from its prose (which is not quite evident in the English version) and its setting, which has even more archaic elements than something like Marimite. It has one foot placed in modern age — and modern cultural references only help to establish this link — and another in a remote historical era, maybe even in the 1910s-1920s. It has its head in the clouds of 'class S' chronotope, but its feet are planted on the ground of the modern genre conventions. It purposefully omits verbal and visual depictions of any modern technology, except of a very few specific mentions. And Hiver goes even further than previous entries and blends reality and "fairy tale" into a single inseparable entity. It's a narrative in which its core themes and the Japanese-specific concept of sekaikan govern everything else, which doesn't mean that the characters are not important — they are the very soul of this story after all — but it means that they are created after everything else that I've mentioned. And plot, the linear progression of events, in Flowers is nothing but one giant contrivance to me, always has been. I don't see any value in it, because I've always perceived it as nothing but a vehicle for transporting the story from point A to point B.

Furthermore, a lot of the characters' actions can be attributed to one thing. I see that many people do seem to forget that the cast consists of quite literally 14-15 years old teenagers, and not just of regular teens, but of girls with various psychological problems or traumatic experiences. While they are clearly a cut above their age group in terms of academic ability and intelligence, they are, nonetheless, still only teenagers. What's worse, because they are definitely smarter than your average teenager, many of them often do random chaotic things under the assumption that they are smart, rational and in control of themselves, while in reality they are often anything but (this is quite a natural depiction; source: my past teenage self). They lack real-life experiences, knowledge and deep self-awareness to deal with these scenarios and situations as a fully mature adult person would be able to. The writing consistently portrays them as being unable to control their mental state and emotional reactions, as one would totally expect from their age group. If one would be willing to be more cynical and skeptical on purpose, roughly 90% of the story in Flowers could be written off as a completely avoidable teenage melodrama drama because it, quite literally, is a teenage melodrama. So, yes, "they are fourteen". I'd also describe some of the girls as possessing of an overactive imagination. Suoh is the prime example of this. Her inner imaginarium is incredibly rich and vivid, because she perceives the reality around her through the lens of hundreds of fictional stories which she had consumed during her lifetime while being almost completely deprived of common experiences. She is much more
naive and oblivious in comparison to, say, Erika or Yuzuriha, because she really lacks the experience of dealing with individuals and with interpersonal relationships. You wonder why she "didn't do this or that" as if you want her to be thinking and acting as rationally as possible — and this is pretty much an answer to the "why" question.

It's very obvious that she cannot control her train of thought when she is overwhelmed by emotions, especially in Hiver, in which her POV is of an unreliable narrator variety. I'd say that her mind had begun to cloud in Automne's extra already, and in Hiver she is very deeply obsessed with Mayuri to the point that she believes that she really needs to be saved from danger, some kind of force that supposedly keeps them apart. And when her fears, doubts and anxieties manifest through the spectre of her stepmother, she antagonizes with this dark side of hers and immediately shuts it down every single time, because of course she doesn't want to think about a possibility that what she is doing is...not exactly wrong, but kind of erroneous. Her perception of reality is skewed because this whole thing is so incredibly personal to her; in Erika's own words, she is incapable of thinking straight when it comes to Mayuri, and that's why she starts to progress only when she finally opens up to her friends in Chapter 5, because she desperately needs some fresh perspectives, even if it's something as simple as "the key is actually just a regular key" (which is another example of her mental myopia, she really does see everything as some kind of a mystery puzzle).

It all culminates in the fact that Mayuri's actions do not make sense. On any level. She wishes to give that old lady a bit of happiness before she passes away. She has abondenment issues with her mother and used her as a replacement for that motherly figure in her life. So far it is all very understandable. But why did she have to lie or hide it? Why could she not be with Granny Elder for a period of time after attending school like normal? The woman quite directly believes Mayuri is Sion and still attending the school so there aren't even any incongruences in that set-up. Even if she had to give her intensive care for most of the day for some reason, Mayuri had NO reason to cut all ties with Suoh and her friends at all. Even if they met more rarely, it would have been fine. Even if they just sent each other letters it would have been fine! This contrivance becomes more inexcusable when we take to mind that Mayuri was told that Granny Elder would only be under those delusions for around 3 months. If it was that short on average, why did Mayuri have to cut ties with Suoh at all and ask her to forget her? Yes, eventually it turned out that the delusion did not end, because Mayuri was too similar to Sion, but that was not originally intended to happen. At worst Mayuri could have lied that she was going to some kind of extra-curricular art course far away for a few months. This all boils down to the conclusion that Mayuri had no reason to act the way she did.

If it was that short on average, why did Mayuri have to cut ties with Suoh at all and ask her to forget her?

First of all, I want to outline this specific part, because I do not believe that the "Mayuri asked Suoh to forget her" thing ever happened before Hiver. She really left without a word, she didn't even ask Dalia to relay anything to Suoh.
...Okay, I don't quite get it. Do you truly believe that Mayuri would've cut ties with Suoh and the rest if the Basquiats, Dalia specifically, would've allowed her not to? It's very obvious that the Basquiats have been trying to keep this whole thing hidden under the rug for 20 years. How would you explain the mysteries of the Tulpa of Agape and the Goddess of Truth being so persistent for two decades then? Why would Dalia be so adamant in her attempts of shutting down Suoh's investigations? No, there is only one plausibility in my opinion: the students that take the role aren't given a choice, they accept it fully on the Basquiats' terms. I would even assume that they didn't allow these girls to return to the academy, because it would immediately raise eyebrows and questions, and also why else would these girls need preferential treatment for college and universities of their choice if they were allowed to resume their study as normal anyway.
Let's return to Mayuri's internal reasoning, because she literally spills it out during one of her final POVs: "...She taught me that sometimes lies can be a kindness. Her words still linger with me today. And that's probably why... I couldn't tell my Amitie the truth. Even though I knew she sought the truth about all else, I chose to lie to her. And because of that little white lie back at the end of spring, she's been suffering ever since. I once thought I wanted the truth too; then I learned of my mother's betrayal, and a part of me died inside. That's why — no, that's the excuse I give as to why I'm crying as I watch myself sit atop her lap in happier times. I should have trusted my Amitie — I should have trusted Suoh Shirahane. I needn't have feared that I would be betrayed again. She would still have been there for me, even if I told her the truth. Her heart isn't as fickle as my mother's..."
All of the Seven Mysteries have one crucial thing in common: they all are lies used for covering up the truth or other lies, for embellishing reality, "adorning it with flowers" to "soften the blow". They are all born from and are being called upon when someone acts dumb, foolish or selfish. We've experienced this with the Sasakis two times in Printemps and in Automne, also during the Shapeshifter incident, etc. Every single one of those mysteries is a trivial thing that gets completely blown out of proportion because people are cowards and are selfish (which doesn't contradict the idea that those same people are capable of good things). It happens every day: people do something stupid or selfish yet mundane and insignificant, but they choose to conjure up a little lie to hide the truth, then they create more lies to cover previous lies, and all of this mess snowballs into one big lie. And Mayuri had relied on the Goddess of Truth mystery to cover up her own lie, which was her promise of being together with Suoh. Yes, sure, during the dream sequence at the end of Hiver she says "I should've told Suoh Shirahane the truth", but it's just wishful thinking at this point. Her abandonment trauma is not really about her using Mother Elder as a patchwork for her wounded heart, but about the fact that she was afraid that Suoh would've abandoned her just as her mother did if she had told her the truth — or, as she said, maybe this is just an excuse to hide behind.
By the way, recall the Return of the Veil scene in Printemps; this is when Mayuri gives her definitive answer to Dalia when she whispers to her something that Suoh can't hear. She had made her choice when she accepted Dalia's proposal, and by making this choice she betrayed Suoh's trust because she herself was afraid of being abandoned again. It's as simple as that. What that fear unfounded and irrational? Yes, it was, but it doesn't matter in retrospect. Is it an understandable fear, even if irrational and unfounded? I'd say that it is.
You might be wondering "but if she had resolved to stay by Allium's side, then why did she begin to change her mind in Hiver at the end?". I think this is answered during her POVs. She simply didn't expect that she wouldn't be able to forget about Suoh, and the more time had passed, the stronger her yearning for Suoh was, and it was exacerbated further when she was able to talk to her during their meetings. She wants to be with Suoh, but also with Allium. She deeply wants both, yet she knows that she can have only one. That's why she is so extremely conflicted in Hiver: as an example of this, she agrees to switch with Chidori during the stage play to give Suoh a fleeting moment of happiness, but then she flees, which changes only in the "retelling", i.e. in the second reading/playthrough.

Honesty, this whole case reminds me of a criticism some people throw at Automne when they say that Nerine's motivation for choosing Yuzuriha in the True End is never explained and that her character is "underutilized". I disagree with all of these assessments as I think that the amount of information provided in both cases is sufficient for effective portrayal.

There was also no reason for the entire cast and narrative to portray Elder as some kind of villain and snake. There was never a real antagonist. There wasn't even any danger. Why did everyone act like Suoh was playing with fire, when at most she would have uncovered a sad truth about the headmaster of the academy? What could the possibly have done, expel her?

I very much doubt that the entire cast was portraying Mother Elder as a villain. It was Yuzuriha who told the "snake" thing to Suoh, and she is also the only person who had proclaimed The Tulpa of Agape to be the oldest of the Seven Mysteries, but you have to remember that she had only part of the information, she didn't see the whole picture. Mayuri was just saying stuff like "it's too dangerous" and really nothing else. And, yes, of course there was no real danger to Suoh. What exactly surprises you here, though? That Dalia was trying to ward Suoh off by any means available to her, which includes lying to her and trying to scare her? The only danger was the actual truth behind Mayuri's disappearance, which is why Mayuri initially also tried to ward her off.
And I don't think it's humanly possible to get more antagonistic than Dalia, heh. Antagonist is just someone who opposes the protagonist, and she was behind all attempts of stopping Suoh from discovering the truth in Hiver.
In the end, the Basquiat family was hiding not Allium herself. They were hiding the whole intermingled mess of events and things which were directly tied to their family tragedy. And they were hiding their own selfishness. Yes, every single girl that played Sion had accepted this role by her own free will. But the Basquiats were also at fault here, they are the enablers. Even their treatment of Mother Elder is highly morally questionable in my opinion. Allium was something of a coping mechanism for them and they were willing to do to lie and cover things up in order to keep it that way for...20 years. Which is, like, a very long time and a big stack of lies if you ask me.

Do not even get me started on the alternate endings, which somehow portray it like Granny Elder would have lived for years on end and Mayuri would have been stuck with her way past Suoh's graduation. Everything falls apart.

Are you referring to Mother Elder dying in the Good End, but living a few more years in non-canon endings? I had a very firm impression that the way she passed in the Good End was induced by something like an emotional shock after she finally awakened from her "dream" (the text explicitly tells, for example, that her eyes fix on Suoh for a moment and there's a sudden flash of recognition, which implies that she saw Sayuri in her, a girl who in her mind should've been dead for many years).

This story would have been better if Mayuri had just stuck around and the final game was about discovering Sion Basquiat's secret for different reasons.

It would've been a very different story revolving around an almost different set of themes, not "same story but better"; you'd have to completely rewrite a large portion of the plot and a large portion of character development progression to accommodate this "Mayuri sticking around" idea into narrative.

Continuing with badly conveyed information and motivations, I'm surprised that someone would so avidly defend how Yuzuriha and Nerine were treated in Hiver. I completely agree with Lilification that they were handled quite poorly. Yes, you can somehow piece together that Dhalia offered them a deal, but this is a joke. What did Dhalia actually call them out of elopment for? To send a letter she could have written herself and play guard dog in front of Dhalia's room? On the off chance that Suoh and all her friends are too dumb to tell that this is the worst act in history? You are seriously telling me that the two girls who are wanted for running away from home are willing to publically appear at the academy (with uniforms to boot) and that Dhalia was okay with putting them at risk? And for what? As we established, Suoh discovering the secret barely amounts to anything and Yuzuriha was the one who gave Suoh basically all of her hints anyway.

I want to reiterate once more that this was not a "deal". "Deal" implies mutual partnership, but Dalia had manipulated them into doing all these things.
The blackmail letter was nothing but a pretext for Yuzuriha establishing direct contact with Suoh. Only a dumbwit wouldn't understand that Suoh would crack this puzzle pretty quickly, and because Yuzu isn't a complete dumbwit — except when she is — she left a couple of clues in the letter only her and Suoh could read. And when they finally meet face to face, she uses this letter, these clues specifically, to her own advantage. This time instead of her familiar jokester attire she wears a mask of the villain. Her job? Scare the living hell out of Suoh, break her morale and shake her resolve by making her realize that even people which she considered her friends can betray her for their own egoistic reasons. Only this approach could affect someone as persistent and tenacious as Suoh. This is not something what Dalia could've done herself, because she doesn't have a close relationship with Suoh, she is just a teacher to her. Also, it's just a personal matter for Dalia, and as a member of the academy's staff she cannot allow it to affect her formal relationship with Suoh, who is also the council president now, of all things. This is why she resorts to a covert tactic like this, not because she can't find anyone else to guard her room.
Speaking of "the worst act in history": are you sure this was just an act? The "cartoon villains" part was definitely a silly smokescreen, but do you remember what Yuzuriha tells Erika in the chapel? Did you question why they left the academy without telling anyone and didn't plan to return in the first place, until Dalia commanded them to? Because they too have made their choices. They've decided to completely abandon their previous lives, erase everything and start from square one. They've been together through thick and thin for almost a decade, while they've made friends with the rest of the cast only a few months ago. As much as it pains me to acknowledge this, it's not really even a choice for them. It's just...a natural order of things to them.

If you wish to argue that they had to be in Hiver to resolve their plotline, then maybe it should have been actually resolved? Because it really wasn't at all. You get a single hint that they had a deal with the Basquiats, but they have no proper send-off with anyone but Suoh and they just return to the same status quo we saw them at in Automne. Character writing wise this was a bad integration and a missed opportunity.

Overall, I argue that them being in Hiver is integral to Yuzuriha's growth. I did say that the third confrontation is when she gets her final portion of character development in the series. If you think about it, what she does in this scene is a bit similar to what she already did for Suoh in Automne, but on a much bigger scale.
In Automne she was able to get what she wanted and then some, because Nerine sacrificed her own identity and her ambitions in favor of being with Yuzuriha in sickness and in health, mirroring what Yuzuriha did for her after her illness when they were kids. And this is what forces Yuzu's hand in Hiver. She doesn't really wish to slaughter the chicks, but she is prepared to do it if it guarantees Nerine's happiness...and that's what she probably tells herself so she could sleep better at night. It doesn't take a genius to understand that this wish is selfish in nature. The same goes for Nerine, because it's Yuzu in whom she was able to find salvation and happiness by accepting her love and willingly sacrificing a larger part of her own self, finally, after years of tormenting self-hatred, cowardice and fear. Of course, who'd want to loose the happiness that you were able to attain only recently?
But after actually experiencing the full extent of what Suoh is willing to go through for Mayuri, after realizing that she truly will stop at nothing, Yuzuriha finally recognizes that what she does is, ultimately, selfish. Of course, what Suoh does is also selfish, she even says it out loud, which absolutely doesn't mean that it's something bad on its own. It just means that Suoh is the same as her, that she also has the right for happiness. Yuzuriha accepts that she isn't the only one who is struggling and fighting for happiness, that she has no right to deny it for Suoh. And then she yields again and sheds her evergreen foliage once more. She is finally able to put aside her deeply held wants for someone's else benefit.

We can agree to disagree if there should have been a "more proper" send-off for them, I just do not see it as a necessity. It would have been too sugar-sweet for my personal taste. I also feel like it wouldn't really be in line with Yuzuriha's character. Just as an example, she didn't directly apologize to Erika for being an asshole to her in Automne. She didn't give any farewells to anyone in Automne, unless you want to count that short internal monologue before her departure. So why would she do these things in this situation? Just out of respect? This is how she simply is, and I accept her how she is. This kind of intimate closure is what I appreciate more, because it gives a very bittersweet feeling to their final departure. Actually, it is very similar to Mayuri End, but while Mayuri End gets overwritten, redacted and painted over, theirs doesn't.
I think that the reason why Yuzuriha appears before Suoh at the end is because she truly shares a unique emotional bond with her, a bond which was created between them in Automne. That's why this farewell scene felt so deeply personal to me.

The part about Yuzuriha getting attacked gets absolutely no resolution at all beyond implying the Basquiats were involved, but not for what reason or whom exactly. This is the final chapter, don't cliffhanger bait people with something that should have been resolved within the confines of its own plot.

I understand that it may be frustrating for you, but there exists no rule in writing which says that every loose end should have a perfectly clear resolution or defines how exactly clear and well-explained it should be. It has a resolution: Yuzuriha just tells Suoh the info in her typical clandestine manner. This is how she's always been, it's in character.

I do not care if there are audio dramas or additional materials that do explain it, this is bad form.

And, as I said, none of this information is essential, in no way this is an actual cliffhanger. I'm pretty sure that Innocent Grey didn't expect that everyone and their mother would be able buy a very expensive limited artbook anyway. I didn't even know that any of these bonus details existed outside of the game until I read about them three weeks later after finishing Hiver.
There are only two members of the Basquiat remaining in Saint Angraecum. The first one is Dalia herself and she is a non-candidate, because Yuzuriha wouldn't be able to interact with her normally in Automne if it was her doing. This leaves you with only a single option: Iberis, that mysterious woman whose voice you can hear twice during Mayuri/Sion opening sequences. I don't think that it's that hard of a puzzle or even a puzzle at all.

last edited at Jul 18, 2022 1:42AM

Now I know what working at the CIA must be like!

@icipher

1 and 2. I don't really understand how exactly she'd be able to do any of that in the first place. And you might be forgetting that Dalia explicitly told Suoh that Mayuri left the academy of her own free will, and when Suoh tried to inquire about her again, Dalia responded with "she had her own reasons". None of the staff she has talked to seemed to be suspecting anything weird about Mayuri suddenly leaving the academy, because it happens all the time. This is not an actual disappearance. Suoh begins to suspect something, to think that there might be an actor behind Mayuri's disappearance only in Automne.

This does not quite oppose the point, if Suoh wanted information on Mayuri (especially if she thought it was just a voluntary leave) it would have been obvious to contact her family first (hell, even Mayuri directly if she really went home). You are questioning how she could have done that? Really? I know the phone book is a bit outdated these days, even if the game makes you believe it would still be used, but getting the Kohsaka's contact info for any manner of excuse should have been quite easy, especially if the staff didn't suspect any undue circumstances.
The moment the parents are unaware of Mayuri leaving the academy, Suoh should have gone for child protection services, because a girl just functionally disappeared. If the parents were fed some lie about Mayuri's wherabouts Suoh would immediately have had a way stronger lead.

4. I've reread the scene of their second meeting and I don't agree. Suoh still can't control herself emotionally during their second meeting. And during the third one there's this line: "Emotion surges up in me and I shout through the wall. If we both want to see one another so desperately, then why are we still relegated to speaking through walls?". This is just one of many examples when she relays her mental and emotional state during her meetings with Mayuri in that manner. You might see this as a narrative contrivance, but I see it just as "this is how she is". She even says once she's afraid that she won't see Mayuri again if she will tell about her meetings to her friends. She can't really explain why she feels and does what she feels and does, why she is so deeply afraid of facing Mayuri directly during those meetings will result in her losing her forever. Again, before second meeting she even says "I don't even need to see her, just let me hear her voice once again".

Your explanation for that scene is valid. But also just excusing bad writing. Of course you can always boil it down to emotional issues, but really? By the third time Suoh already confessed everything to her friends. She had the confidence to tell Mayuri she would find her and solve the mystery no matter what. She has the strength to tell Mayuri "No" and prevent her from leaving in the true ending path. Suoh's emotional state is all over the place, but I find this an incredibly cheap reason to just dismiss the most obvious solution available. One you have to derive from inner monologue that I don't even consider that convincing for your case.
The line you quoted from the second meeting doesn't imply she doesnt want to see her or is afraid to face her, quite the opposite, she is clinging just to her voice because she will take anything she can to bloster her resolve.

5. To be honest, it's doesn't really matter. Why "she didn't notice because she simply didn't" isn't a plausible enough explanation to you? And I wouldn't call it Rikka's contribution, it was just a pure coincidence which results in the whole group reading those letters together.

...Suoh went to insane lengths to uncover information and the specimen room was her best lead. She should have torn open every single cupboard and read every piece of paper in the entire room to be honest. You understand that her suddenly acting this sloppy (the letters were literally in the open!) at a crucial moment feels contrived, yes? It only happened to prolong the mystery and to have Rikka come in with the "save". I am looking at this from a writing perspective obviously and "It happened because it happened" is the worst of all writing mistakes. Let's give it an irrational but plausible spin if you will... Suoh is afraid of butterflies. If the letters had been in the butterfly section, then this would explain why she specifically was not able to find it. There, bad writing solved. This can be applied to quite a few problems in Hiver. Internal consistency that works hand in hand with the plot is all I ask.

Oh and I don't actually think that was the only thing Rikka contributed, not at all. I also value her character development. My issue lies entirely with how Suoh's actions are portrayed.

6. This...sounds like something that would come completely out of left field in this story. It'd lead to such a wild tonal whiplash. And this leads me to my final point.

If I'm being fully honest, I don't really see much of a point in discussing these specific gripes on these specific plot points, because we'll go back and forth infinitely and indefinitely while talking about them, since one can easily drown in these "what if" scenarios and their myriad excessive details. I simply think that all of these criticisms stem from you reading and analyzing the story from a purely realistic, a logical perspective. (Please don't take it personally, but a few of these plot-related gripes resemble CinemaSins-level extreme nitpicking to me. A bike and a search on the Internet, really?

It is a bit hard to not take offense to you calling incredibly obvious solutions to a convoluted mystery "nitpicking" and comparing me to failed comedians.... A good writer needs to justify their mystery and character actions internally, regardless of what the drama begs of the piece. I was always highly opposed to the sentiment that we should ignore faults just because the story couldn't work without them. We are supposed to believe Suoh is desperately invested into this, yet she doesn't even come to the most basic form of information gathering in the modern age. This could have been alleviated with a little more transparency of what Suoh did or with changing the time period as mentioned before.

Let me put this into terms that may make more sense to you... I accept illogical and emotional actions as explanations, because humans arent perfect logic machines. Automne's entire core is simply the emotional state of Yuzuriha and Nerine fighting for balance. But if you pull the "emotion made me do it" card, by all means properly convey it, properly integrate it and don't ignore the obvious solutions completely. An action in affect is totally understandable, but 1 year's worth of slipping and sliding becomes harder to accept. When the story IS entirely centered around emotional stakes then that's also how you treat it. If the story is entirely revolving around a MYSTERY then this mystery MUST pay off in a way that makes sense. This is why I never expected to be satisfied with Hiver's plot even before I read it, as I could not conceive of a way to make the mystery pan out... and I was proven right. The writers put themselves into a corner, plain and simple.

And plot, the linear progression of events, in Flowers is nothing but one giant contrivance to me, always has been. I don't see any value in it, because I've always perceived it as nothing but a vehicle for transporting the story from point A to point B.

I think this line is what separates our worldviews and why we may not be able to agree on this no matter how far we take this. I value internal consistency, but you are projecting the meta of the setting and writing over that consistency, conflating the two. The story NEEDS to acknowledge these elements that it has chosen to be part of, regardless of whether it wants to act like it exists in two time periods. Playing with tropes and genre conventions is fine, it is one of the things I praised about the series, how it deconstructs Class S structures and breaks them as they should be destroyed.
But you are asking me to ignore blatantly bad writing just... because. These inconsistencies and dropped plot points hurt the internal logic of the piece that you are praising here.

Furthermore, a lot of the characters' actions can be attributed to one thing. I see that many people do seem to forget that the cast consists of quite literally 14-15 years old teenagers

Very well, I do acknowledge this part, in fact it is one of the biggest dissonances of this series to me. 14 year old girls who have watched M-rated movies and know every classic or super specific Western filmographies... I can suspend my disbelief for, somehow. Acting emotionally, failing to act mature? Completely granted. Melodrama? This is the most common thing possible in romance stories, I am here for it.
But once again... it is not properly conveyed . The story 9/10 times does act like they are acting logically or that they are figuring things out in a, well, detective style of way. Every protagonist has a nearly unnatural insight on inter-personal relationships of others when the plot demands it and then they don't see the obvious at other times, but it is never justified in any way. Printemps was the worst offender for putting melodrama before good character writing, but I always saw this as a necessary evil to establish the cast properly. And I accepted it or I wouldn't be here discussing the 4th game. I also accept Hiver's shortcomings, but I do not turn a blind eye to them with superficial deflections like "They are 14, therefore everything is excusable". After all most of the situation was build by adults who act just as irrationally. Age is not a shield or spear, just a circumstance.

I will once again bring up Automne as the shining example of how much better the writing can be. Yuzuriha makes mistakes or mulls in her long lasting depression, but she internally justifies herself a lot . You have a complete understanding of her emotional state and internal world, you see her interactions, no matter how flawed and can say "Yes, this makes sense". Because it is an internal conflict. Hiver's conflict is in large part external and that is where things get complicated.

It's very obvious that she cannot control her train of thought when she is overwhelmed by emotions, especially in Hiver, in which her POV is of an unreliable narrator variety. I'd say that her mind had begun to cloud in Automne's extra already, and in Hiver she is very deeply obsessed with Mayuri to the point that she believes that she really needs to be saved from danger, some kind of force that supposedly keeps them apart. And when her fears, doubts and anxieties manifest through the spectre of her stepmother, she antagonizes with this dark side of hers and immediately shuts it down every single time, because of course she doesn't want to think about a possibility that what she is doing is...not exactly wrong, but kind of erroneous. Her perception of reality is skewed because this whole thing is so incredibly personal to her; in Erika's own words, she is incapable of thinking straight when it comes to Mayuri, and that's why she starts to progress only when she finally opens up to her friends in Chapter 5, because she desperately needs some fresh perspectives, even if it's something as simple as "the key is actually just a regular key" (which is another example of her mental myopia, she really does see everything as some kind of a mystery puzzle).

This is a brilliant analyzes of Suoh in Hiver and I don't disagree with it at all. It both examplifies what is great about the writing and what is superbly lacking. I love it.

If it was that short on average, why did Mayuri have to cut ties with Suoh at all and ask her to forget her?

First of all, I want to outline this specific part, because I do not believe that the "Mayuri asked Suoh to forget her" thing ever happened before Hiver. She really left without a word, she didn't even ask Dalia to relay anything to Suoh.

Mayuri wanting Suoh to forget about her was addressed several times, with Printemps in mind. Her final message carved into the pavillion in Printemps was not that direct obviously, but Suoh's wish to forget her was supposed to be mirrored by Mayuri wanting to be forgotten. Even the need to be "saved" that Suoh interpreted into Mayuri's paintings never existed. Mayuri was willing to cut all ties and had hoped Suoh would move on (while also hoping she wouldnt, because emotions, you know it).

...Okay, I don't quite get it. Do you truly believe that Mayuri would've cut ties with Suoh and the rest if the Basquiats, Dalia specifically, would've allowed her not to? It's very obvious that the Basquiats have been trying to keep this whole thing hidden under the rug for 20 years. How would you explain the mysteries of the Tulpa of Agape and the Goddess of Truth being so persistent for two decades then? Why would Dalia be so adamant in her attempts of shutting down Suoh's investigations? No, there is only one plausibility in my opinion: the students that take the role aren't given a choice, they accept it fully on the Basquiats' terms. I would even assume that they didn't allow these girls to return to the academy, because it would immediately raise eyebrows and questions

I am sorry, but this entire segment is speculation at best. I think you went too far in your quest to justify things with no evidence to actually back it up. In fact that alternate endings contradict this line of thinking, as Mayuri re-enrolled in the academy in the ending where Suoh wakes up from her coma and even in the semi-bad end Mayuri tells Suoh that they will meet again, proving that cutting all ties is not even necessary. Eventually, maybe after graduation, they were able to meet again. If this possibility always existed then at some point you have to wonder what else is possible.
Not that there is any reason to even think the limitations were that extreme. Letters and an excuse for her disappearance would have been far more potent in keeping a secret than literally just disappearing and making a fuss. Perhaps people wouldn't go as far as Suoh, but things have a way of getting away with people, right Seven Mysteries?

and also why else would these girls need preferential treatment for college and universities of their choice if they were allowed to resume their study as normal anyway.

Why would they need preferential treatment for university and better connections? Uhm... that is the entire point of the deal. They don't need it, but they get something out of it. it's not to reduce the damage, it's the explicit goal for most of the girls taken by the Goddess of Truth. Mayuri was the only exception, because her abondment issues were her true reason to want to do it. She never cared about getting ahead in the social ladder.

Her abandonment trauma is not really about her using Mother Elder as a patchwork for her wounded heart, but about the fact that she was afraid that Suoh would've abandoned her just as her mother did if she had told her the truth — or, as she said, maybe this is just an excuse to hide behind.
By the way, recall the Return of the Veil scene in Printemps; this is when Mayuri gives her definitive answer to Dalia when she whispers to her something that Suoh can't hear. She had made her choice when she accepted Dalia's proposal, and by making this choice she betrayed Suoh's trust because she herself was afraid of being abandoned again. It's as simple as that. What that fear unfounded and irrational? Yes, it was, but it doesn't matter in retrospect. Is it an understandable fear, even if irrational and unfounded? I'd say that it is.

Explain to me this truth. What truth is Mayuri actually hiding? What was she afraid Suoh would have abandoned her over? Because no matter how much you elaborate on the consequences, you never address the cause.

You might be wondering "but if she had resolved to stay by Allium's side, then why did she begin to change her mind in Hiver at the end?".

I never wondered about this. It's one of the only parts of Mayuri's choices and mental state that is crystal clear. Her change is one of the things that is expected in the narrative and makes sense to me.

as an example of this, she agrees to switch with Chidori during the stage play to give Suoh a fleeting moment of happiness, but then she flees, which changes only in the "retelling", i.e. in the second reading/playthrough.

Isn't it the same thing as in the previous games? The true ending (or Grand Finale in this case) is only unlocked if you saw all other endings. Calling it a retelling is perhaps pushing it too deeply into a meta. Just like in Ete or Automne, it very much feels like the writer wants you to fully comprehend the extent of all possibilities before you can reach the intended conclusion.

Honesty, this whole case reminds me of a criticism some people throw at Automne ==when they say that Nerine's motivation for choosing Yuzuriha in the True End is never explained and that her character is "underutilized". I disagree with all of these assessments as I think that the amount of information provided in both cases is sufficient for effective portrayal.

Well well, you will not see me criticizing Automne on such a superficial level and I resent the idea that these are comparable in your mind. Nerine's character motivation was very well established and she was always only so far away from making that choice. Her guilt and faith held her back, but Yuzuriha always had the key to her heart.
My issue with Mayuri's motivations is far deeper and comes about due to her actions before Hiver, which have, unlike Nerine's, not been properly addressed.
Mayuri changing her mind, I understand and wholeheartedly embrace. Just like I did with Nerine.

The only danger was the actual truth behind Mayuri's disappearance, which is why Mayuri initially also tried to ward her off.

The truth being that she chose to leave Suoh behind? I find it hard to accept that this constant mention of danger and dark secrets and a "perpetrator" was aimed to spare Suoh's feelings. To a degree, yes, but if you really want to act like this story did not portray the overarching mystery as dangerous and sinister you would be lying. Even Kifune's mystery was more horrible, as it was basically a bread trail towards her corpse... why exactly did Dhalia have the key to that place and yet nobody ever looked in there? This is not even explained once. I mean, all the hints to the mystery led to that room. What was the point of hiding it? It held some old information about the history of the academy. Clearly nobody knew Kifune committed suicide in there (even though there is a WINDOW in the roof of that room! Glad none of the maintenance crew ever looked down I guess! And the library must have really good ventilation to hide the corpse smell.).
I would understand if they were trying to hide secret accounts, but... a fire that burned down the chapel and killed a student and a teacher/priest is not something that could actually be hidden. I refer you to my internet research point from the list of how Suoh could have figured this mystery out in an instant. This 100% was in the news.

But the Basquiats were also at fault here, they are the enablers. Even their treatment of Mother Elder is highly morally questionable in my opinion. Allium was something of a coping mechanism for them and they were willing to do to lie and cover things up in order to keep it that way for...20 years. Which is, like, a very long time and a big stack of lies if you ask me.

Oh I fully agree. The Basquiats are the problem here and I don't actually dislike this angle one bit. It's just not actually sinister or dangerous. Just very foolish.
And yes, I also thought that keeping Allium in delusions was not a good way of helping her. Which is why breaking the illusion instantly helped her move on.

Are you referring to Mother Elder dying in the Good End, but living a few more years in non-canon endings? I had a very firm impression that the way she passed in the Good End was induced by something like an emotional shock after she finally awakened from her "dream" (the text explicitly tells, for example, that her eyes fix on Suoh for a moment and there's a sudden flash of recognition, which implies that she saw Sayuri in her, a girl who in her mind should've been dead for many years).

I find it fascinating that Suoh's mere existence is basically what killed both Allium's delusion and... well, her. It also implies that deep down she knew Kifune was gone, which makes me wonder just how close they actually were. Obviously I got that point, but Allium was still unbelievably old. She really shouldn't have that much left in her, especially with her mental state. 3 years is a stretch. Whatever the hell kind of time it takes in the Rikka ending, I will not accept. Suoh and Rikka becoming sisters at the school and being working adults...

This story would have been better if Mayuri had just stuck around and the final game was about discovering Sion Basquiat's secret for different reasons.

It would've been a very different story revolving around an almost different set of themes, not "same story but better"; you'd have to completely rewrite a large portion of the plot and a large portion of character development progression to accommodate this "Mayuri sticking around" idea into narrative.

Certainly. I am not acting like this would have stayed the same story (well Ete and Automne would have only needed slight tweaks honestly). But the best parts of Hiver can live separately from Mayuri's disappearance, which I find fascinating. Of course I will acknowledge that my favorite part, the parallel between Mayuri/Suoh & Sion/Kifune is actually dependent on it transpiring in some way. But I also see a universe where Mayuri sticking around would highly improve Pirintemps and Hiver so much that I actually dare say it would have been worth rewriting everything. Mind you, even just changing Hiver so that Suoh would find and get back Mayuri much earlier would be an improvement. Hiver has too much filler in the wrong places. By the time the story actually ramps up and gets somewhere it is already over.

I want to reiterate once more that this was not a "deal". "Deal" implies mutual partnership, but Dalia had manipulated them into doing all these things.

Forgive my doubts, but Dhalia is anything but a mastermind. It requires quite a bit of suspension of disbelief to make it feasible for her to think this far ahead. It honestly reads more like she asked them for help because she was at her wit's end. If anything Yuzuriha must have made these choices on her own, as her "duty". She was always the overachiever.
But while I can sort of see the method Yuzuriha went for (Nerine really just tagged along... what a waste of her character), it doesn't actually convey motivation.

Speaking of "the worst act in history": are you sure this was just an act?

Why yes, I believe wholeheartedly that every antagonistic notion of these two was an act and the narrative itself acknowledges that. Their elopment is completely disconnected from that. The only connection would be Dhalia giving them something in return, which you say Coloeurs acknowledges... but Hiver doesn't. If you want to push Yuzuriha into a role where she chooses between Neri and the cast... actually justify this turn. Hiver doesn't bother to.

Overall, I argue that them being in Hiver is integral to Yuzuriha's growth. I did say that the third confrontation is when she gets her final portion of character development in the series. If you think about it, what she does in this scene is a bit similar to what she already did for Suoh in Automne, but on a much bigger scale.
But after actually experiencing the full extent of what Suoh is willing to go through for Mayuri, after realizing that she truly will stop at nothing, Yuzuriha finally recognizes that what she does is, ultimately, selfish. Of course, what Suoh does is also selfish, she even says it out loud, which absolutely doesn't mean that it's something bad on its own. It just means that Suoh is the same as her, that she also has the right for happiness. Yuzuriha accepts that she isn't the only one who is struggling and fighting for happiness, that she has no right to deny it for Suoh. And then she yields again and sheds her evergreen foliage once more. She is finally able to put aside her deeply held wants for someone's else benefit.

While I see the point of Yuzuriha comitting a selfless act to a degree I also still think that to get to that conclusion she should have had a valid reason to BE THERE. Not to mention that her selflessly killing her own persona and always playing the role others expected of her is what she was supposed to shed in the true ending of Automne.... she finally was allowed to act selfish. She was allowed to want something and finally be herself - one way or another (even if it was with Ringo at her side, instead of Nerine). The theme of selfless seflishness is strong and one of the best things of Automne, but Hiver did not devote any time to actually giving this the gravitas it needed.

So why would she do these things in this situation? Just out of respect? This is how she simply is, and I accept her how she is. This kind of intimate closure is what I appreciate more, because it gives a very bittersweet feeling to their final departure. Actually, it is very similar to Mayuri End, but while Mayuri End gets overwritten, redacted and painted over, theirs doesn't.

You see, the problem is that the true end of Automne is them breaking away and leaving everything behind. The moment the decision was made there was no past for them left. They decided to move on and saying goodbye would not have made sense anymore.
But Hiver drew them back in, to the detriment of their perfect conclusion. If you go this far to make them integrate back into the cast, then there is no reason to just keep them at the status quo. It is dull, it is amateurish writing. What was the point? You see what I am getting at.

This one time I will agree that internal consistency is not the issue, this is indeed how Yuzu and Neri chose to go about it and I understand that. But from a writing perspective... Pointless. I don't think you can 100% disagree that the only reason they are in this story is so they can be in this story. It doesn't actually benefit them as characters at all, least of all Nerine. The only way their return would have some value would have been if they did find closure with everyone, not just Suoh.
And yes, this is a thing that we can agree to disagree on. It's my personal issue as a writer who puts character development to a high standard. Pieces should be there for a reason to improve and change, not just because they are convenient and are lying in your drawer for usage.

I understand that it may be frustrating for you, but there exists no rule in writing which says that every loose end should have a perfectly clear resolution or defines how exactly clear and well-explained it should be. It has a resolution: Yuzuriha just tells Suoh the info in her typical clandestine manner. This is how she's always been, it's in character.

This is not a rule, it is the blunder of a beginner. What was the point of the entire arc in Printemps? To frame Mayuri I guess. But why go about it this way if there is no actual reason given? I will tell you right now: My hottest of hot takes, the absolute state of someone who wrote 20 paragraphs of character analyzes by now...
The. Writer. Did. Not. Know. The. Answer.
Yes, I am saying it. Printemps was not written with all conclusions in mind. A lot of things in Printemps get completely abandoned or sweeped under the rug. Hiver made clear as day what I suspected all along. And Yuzuriha's flippant line that swipes aside a major mystery is the kind of writing crutch authors use all the time.

And, as I said, none of this information is essential, in no way this is an actual cliffhanger. I'm pretty sure that Innocent Grey didn't expect that everyone and their mother would be able buy a very expensive limited artbook anyway. I didn't even know that any of these bonus details existed outside of the game until I read about them three weeks later after finishing Hiver.

Yes, you acknowledge that this information is not readily available, but you are - and I am super anxious about saying something like it is objective, believe me - wrong about it being non-essential. It would have been non-essential after Automne... it became essential when Hiver happened. It is beyond erronious to claim that vital characer motivations are "non-essential" just because you can make up a reason to yourself. There are plot points that can be kept vague and then there are matters that will completely change everything about a character's presence in a tale. This is the latter.

There are only two members of the Basquiat remaining in Saint Angraecum. The first one is Dalia herself and she is a non-candidate, because Yuzuriha wouldn't be able to interact with her normally in Automne if it was her doing. This leaves you with only a single option: Iberis, that mysterious woman whose voice you can hear twice during Mayuri/Sion opening sequences. I don't think that it's that hard of a puzzle or even a puzzle at all.

Except Iberis has family aside from the deceased Sion. Yes, the story points towards her, but it doesn't explain anything at all of her motivations or involvement. Just because you can make assumptions about the whom (only because that is the only Basquiat you know about), it doesn't somehow justify the action itself.

---

To gather my thoughts once more, this seems mostly a different approach to story-telling that guides us and that is fine. I think your insight on how the story "should" be perceived is great and the author would be most grateful for your perspective, as it focuses on the intention instead of the result . These kinds of readers are the most convenient for writers, although I do not want to belittle you at all for it! This is after all a work of fiction, for enjoyment. And enjoyed it we both have. Only to different degrees and for perhaps different reasons. This is as far as I will go with my critcism of Hiver, lest I actually start nitpicking instead of pointing out the most glaring flaws only. And believe me, there are some minor inconsistencies that made my neck itch throughout.

I'm not opposed to discussing it more of course (I asked you questions after all and it would be rude to cut it off before hearing your answers). I value this different perspective. But outside of the things we discussed I will try not to focus on any other issues with Hiver and instead count my blessings in what I got.

last edited at Jul 18, 2022 5:18AM

But there is also some very positive stuff, like when Yuzuriha is grilling Erika regarding her crush on Suoh. It's cute to know that before Chidori entered her life, Erika had one-sided feelings for her bookworm buddy. It makes me wonder what a route centered on those feelings would've been like. And yet, it's also endearing to see how her feelings for Chidori have helped her move past that crush. The relief when Chidori came in during that scene was very cute.

Hmm, it didn't feel to me as if she was grilling Erika based on vocal delivery of those lines, more like inquiring her as in "Yaegaki-kun, what the heck, care to tell?". But yeah, it was so sweet and heartwarming. And the scene of Suoh and Chidori cooking pancakes for Erika was such a wonderful fluffy moment, especially when Chidori was like "You're kind, smart and beautiful, I see why Erika had a crush on you".
(Also I get a kick out of those two negative Steam reviews whose authors are angry primarily about the whole Erika's crush on Suoh lmao. No, Suoh did not flirt with Erika, not once, please clean your glasses or give them Rikka for the love of god lol.)

Ultimately, 8.5 or 9/10, I hope one day Miki Sugina and Innocent Grey will hurt me once more with a wonderful yuri.

Sugina Miki and Shimizu Hatsumi. Without her there would be no Erisuoh...sorry, I mean no Flowers. I have no idea how they've met each other beyond what Sugina told in one of the interviews, but it definitely was a match made in heaven. Both of them were treating Flowers as a small passion project rather than a commercially viable enterprise (Sugina even invested his own savings into development).

so much black in this thread recently

so much black in this thread recently

All in service of not spoiling anyone. Unfortunately Dynasty still does not provide the option to make collapsible spoilers, which would both save space and eye damage from all the black bars.

Oh man, there's a lot to unpack here. To avoid looking even more like SCP documentation only meant for the top brass, I think I'll just respond in a manner that avoids the spoilers.

I think first off, I'm glad that there are some answers to the questions I wanted answered the most. There is a caveat to this though - While complimentary material is great, as a western fan it's unlikely we'll ever see it translated. Which is a crying shame because it means that for most the questions will go unanswered. Most importantly, however, the fanbooks, Coleur, and the Anniversary book would be wonderful additions to my shelf and I'd love to be able to actually read them without trying to decipher google lens' machine translation.

And I appreciate the correction, I owe Shimizu Hatsumi a lot too in this case. I'm glad they took the chance on Flowers, I can only hope that they grace us again.

@Licentious Lantern
So... My reply has been in the making for three days now and will still take at least as much time to be fully ready for shipping. Partially it's because I don't have free time and energy for writing a proper response in a short timeframe which I'd be satisfied with myself. Partially, though, I needed some time to gather my thoughts, because I've decided to radically change my approach to constructing and presenting my argumentation.

There is a point of interest that I wish to talk about separately though.
Say, would you be willing to believe me if I told you I was absolutely ready to sell my kidney for charity if I lost a bet I had made with myself prior to Hiver's release? Which bet? That the finale of the series would have a tragic "esu" love story which "happened a long time ago" incorporated into it. This was the only upfront expectation I had for Hiver. And I'm so inhumanly glad that I was right on the mark.
Oh, and another thing actually. I have a peculiar impression that the deconstruction of class S in Flowers was something of a dialogue, a "negotiation" rather that just "deconstruction". I don't really know why I want to call it that way. It feels to me that even if in the very end Flowers defies and denies negative aspects of class S, it takes out of it something positive, powerful and joyful, something that I didn't see presented in any other class S-themed yuri work to that extent: community, sisterhood. I'd say that even Maria-sama ga miteru isn't that committed to that aspect of the genre, because it pays a huge attention to senpai-kohai relationship model instead. But Flowers gifted me with sisterhood of peers, of equals, and I will forever be grateful for this gift.

Also, a month ago I found this. I relate to it so much I could scream.
Honestly, I fear that I will require professional psychological intervention at some point in order to sever those incredibly powerful parasocial bonds I've formed not just with the girls, but with the entirety of Flowers for reasons I might not be ready to openly discuss, because I'm afraid that I will unintentionally unweave the rainbow if I do so, and for another completely different cause.

last edited at Jul 20, 2022 10:11AM

@Lilification
There already exists a small bunch of unofficial fan translations of supplementary materials (audio dramas, a couple of extras from Couleur, stuff like that), and that library will only grow with months and years to come. (If my JP->EN and JP->"my native language" translation skills didn't suck as much as they suck in their current state, I would probably join the choir myself.)
Flowers has a microscopic, but dedicated and, frankly, unhealthily obsessed fanbase lol (especially Chinese-speaking fans, they are completely unhinged and there are a lot more of them in comparison to a Western portion of the Flowers community). To avoid posting potentially forum rule-breaking links, I suggest you google up Flowers fan wiki and continue from there.

Most importantly, however, the fanbooks, Coleur, and the Anniversary book would be wonderful additions to my shelf and I'd love to be able to actually read them without trying to decipher google lens' machine translation.

Sugina-sensei said that Couleur's production was very costly (it's a very girthy 250-page full color artbook), so, unfortunately, there won't be another print run.
They are, however, are planning to continue to make more drama CDs.

last edited at Jul 20, 2022 10:55AM

@Licentious Lantern
So... My reply has been in the making for three days now and will still take at least as much time to be fully ready for shipping. Partially it's because I don't have free time and energy for writing a proper response in a short timeframe which I'd be satisfied with myself. Partially, though, I needed some time to gather my thoughts, because I've decided to radically change my approach to constructing and presenting my argumentation.

By all means, take your time. Just because I am a fool who posts the first thing that comes to mind doesn't mean people need to stoop to my level. (No this is not sarcasm, I really mean it. Copious amounts of typos that I had to edit out prove my shortcomings haha...)
This conversation is not under a time limit~

There is a point of interest that I wish to talk about separately though.
Say, would you be willing to believe me if I told you I was absolutely ready to sell my kidney for charity if I lost a bet I had made with myself prior to Hiver's release? Which bet? That the finale of the series would have a tragic "esu" love story which "happened a long time ago" incorporated into it. This was the only upfront expectation I had for Hiver. And I'm so inhumanly glad that I was right on the mark.

It is a pretty popular Class S trope.

Oh, and another thing actually. I have a peculiar impression that the deconstruction of class S in Flowers was something of a dialogue, a "negotiation" rather that just "deconstruction". I don't really know why I want to call it that way. It feels to me that even if in the very end Flowers defies and denies negative aspects of class S, it takes out of it something positive, powerful and joyful, something that I didn't see presented in any other class S-themed yuri work to that extent: community, sisterhood. I'd say that even Maria-sama ga miteru isn't that committed to that aspect of the genre, because it pays a huge attention to senpai-kohai relationship model instead. But Flowers gifted me with sisterhood of peers, of equals, and I will forever be grateful for this gift.

Hmm, I see your point. Although I was slightly irritated by it (irrational as I am), the way the story always focuses on "my Amitie partner this, my Amitie that" and makes it clear that it sees this system as a valuable one that brings the greatest joy, really cements your point. It mixes aspects that are essential to Class S with modern perception of homosexuality and the more straightforward approach of current yuri works.
It leads to the blurred lines at the end of Hiver where Rikka is so integrated into the relationship between Suoh and Mayuri that it made me question if the writer wanted to imply polyamory without saying it outright... Rikka is truly the most sturdy third wheel in history.

Also, a month ago I found this. I relate to it so much I could scream.

I see. So you relate to the Suoh x Erika shipper, color me surprised! :P

last edited at Jul 20, 2022 2:32PM

Suoh x Erika is great, and while I'm glad they're in their current relationships I'd be thrilled with a sort of "what if" story where they get together.

It is a shame Couleur is unlikely to get reprinted, I can hope I can find a decent second hand copy but I imagine anyone who picked it up might be unlikely to part with it. And I still won't be able to actually read it unaided. C'mon JAST. foot the bill so we can get it here in the west.

I know they wouldn't, JAST is kinda cheap when it comes to things

edit: i just checked ebay to see if there were any and boy, 360-380 USD. Ow.

last edited at Jul 20, 2022 7:45PM

@Licentious Lantern

It is a pretty popular Class S trope.

It is, but what I mean is that I firmly believed that Hiver would use this story specifically to finish off the deconstruction of class S genre. I just connected the dots: in particular, I was quite sure that the burned chapel would lead to the double suicide trope. Well, I wasn't particularly correct on that prediction, though it still involves suicide.

Hmm, I see your point. Although I was slightly irritated by it (irrational as I am), the way the story always focuses on "my Amitie partner this, my Amitie that" and makes it clear that it sees this system as a valuable one that brings the greatest joy, really cements your point. It mixes aspects that are essential to Class S with modern perception of homosexuality and the more straightforward approach of current yuri works.
It leads to the blurred lines at the end of Hiver where Rikka is so integrated into the relationship between Suoh and Mayuri that it made me question if the writer wanted to imply polyamory without saying it outright... Rikka is truly the most sturdy third wheel in history.

Rather than Amitie system itself, I was mostly thinking about how incredibly tightly-knit they all became as a group. They became each other's kindred sisters and these bonds will connect them for their entire lives.
I also never really interpreted Rikka's feelings for Suoh as fully romantic, because she never expresses them as romantic (she says "Thank you for accepting me as a friend" in her ending in Printemps). It's a mix of almost narcissistic admiration, adoration and strong, but never fully realized romantic undertones, which is a common theme for class S. After all, it's what it was — those were stories written in a time period when it was impossible to write about same-sex romantic love openly without society labelling it as abnormal. That's why writers of class S were using this whole framework of it being "pure" and "education" phase that was vitally important for the spiritual growth of adolescent girls. (Sometimes they truly believed that, and sometimes they used that ideology for avoiding censorship and negative reactions from society.)
That's why the lily never blooms in Rikka End in Printemps. It just cannot end this way. She is the "past," not the "future" Suoh wants to move forward to.

I wonder if you read this thing. If you didn't, I seriously urge you to give it a go. I initially read it a long ago, so I don't really remember if there's a way to get if for free legally (maybe via university online libraries). I simply bought a digital version.

I see. So you relate to the Suoh x Erika shipper, color me surprised! :P

Oh, no, I ain't no SuoEri shipper, heh. Well, I think that it's cute, but that's all. I was implying other things that this post talks about. For me the idea that actresses also don't want to let go seems to be true. It's about small things really. About how almost all of them still have avatars and banners of Flowers characters on social media. Or about how Sakura Ayane got all flustered and happy when she was on a seiyuu talk show a few years ago and another guest named Erika Yaegaki as their favourite role/character of hers. Yes, small things like that.

last edited at Jul 21, 2022 1:45AM

@Licentious Lantern

Rather than Amitie system itself, I was thinking about how incredibly tightly-knit they all became as a group. They became each other's kindred sisters and these bonds will connect them for their entire lives.

That's nothing that unusual for any setting like this with a group that goes through "adventures" together and becomes a community.

I also never really interpreted Rikka's feelings for Suoh as fully romantic, because she never expresses them as romantic (she says "Thank you for accepting me as a friend" in her ending in Printemps). It's a mix of almost narcissistic admiration, adoration and strong, but never fully realized romantic undertones, which is a common theme for class S. After all, it's what it was — those were stories written in a time period when it was impossible to write about same-sex romantic love openly without society labelling it as abnormal. That's why the writers of class S had consciously used this whole framework of it being "pure" and "education" (yes, seriously) phase that was vitally important for the spiritual growth of adolescent girls.
That's why the lily never blooms in Rikka End in Printemps. It just cannot end this way. She is the "past," not the "future" Suoh wants to move forward to.

I am aware of Class S and the problematic beginnings of yuri, so you aren't shocking me with the latter half there, but I cannot in any shape or from agree that Rikka's feelings are anything but romantic. Maybe in Printemps you can see it as confusion from a troubled child that clings to Suoh in desperation, but it would be outright foolish to ignore every single hint that gets thrown our way in the following three Volumes. I always found it strange how neither of them ever acknowledges the horrible blackmailing incident, but it seemed like they moved past it (or more accurately the writer wanted to forget it happened).
But the fact that Rikka and Suoh technically dated for a week or two is referenced only very sparingly and only by outsiders like Erika. That's why she uses Rikka as an example of someone who is "seriously" into women during Ete and Rikka never denies it. Similarily the entire cast (who dont know Suoh is still chasing Mayuri) also basically openly ships Rikka and Suoh and constantly tease Rikka about her obvious romantic affection. Especially Chidori who never even knew Mayuri. To an outsider like her it is inherently obvious that Rikka has feelings for Suoh and she always encourages them to get closer.
But I am now certain for a fact that Suoh is keenly aware of Rikka's feelings as well and purposely ignores them/uses it to keep her tied to herself. This final proof came in form of one subtle moment in Hiver. During the Valentine's scene where they exchange chocolate. Suoh is definitely aware of what Rikka wants and how she feels, but her inner monologue acknowledges that she avoids Rikka's feelings and doesn't cross the line.
That being said, her Printemps ending sucks anyway and felt super tacked on. And in Hiver she has fully accepted her role as the third wheel and even outright says that Suoh and Mayuri belong together and that she will only be happy if they are. It's just a bit too close for comfort with her, basically leaving no breathing room for the couple from what little we saw, which makes it feel a bit off. Hopefully Tsuwabuki will get through to her before graduation...

Mind you whether the yuri blooms or not is usually not connected to whether there is a romantic outcome or not in the games.

I wonder if you read this thing. If you didn't, I urge you to give it a go. I initially read it a long ago, so I don't really remember if there's a way to get if for free legally (maybe via university online libraries). I simply bought a digital version.

I'm afraid not and I can't imagine the material to be all that fascinating to me personally. From a historical context I am rather well versed in the treatment of women across Japan's medieval up to WW2 period.

I see. So you relate to the Suoh x Erika shipper, color me surprised! :P

Oh, no, I ain't no SuoEri shipper, heh. Well, I think that it's cute, but that's all. I was implying other things that this post talks about.

I was merely continuing the joke from your previous comments~

But on a more serious note...
To keep it brief, EriSuoh is not a good idea imo. Not just because EriChido is just objectively superior (although it is!), but because both Suoh and Erika need complementary partners, not mirrors. Suoh and Erika cannot help each other grow. If they had started dating around Printemps ~ Ete it would have stunted both of their personal growth and insulated them. A cynic like Erika is best served with a foil of someone exceptionally grounded and dominant like Chidori who will bite back when needed, but also see past the snark. Chidori is the one who pulls Erika along to do things she had given up on due to low self-esteem. If Suoh the wallflower who is lost in her own head most of the time had been her partner then Erika and her would have just drifted off further into a dreamworld. Similar things can be said about Suoh and Mayuri bringing out the best in each other.

last edited at Jul 21, 2022 2:09AM

I believe that yuri blooming symbolizes whether what the protagonist "truly wants" or if "the best outcome" for them is achieved. It feels to me that yellow route endings and alternate endings which have non-canon partners (Rikka, Dalia, Ringo) try to tell that those people are not complimentary romantic partners and they would not be able to grow together with the protagonist (although it's a bit more nuanced than that, especially with Yuzuriha/Ringo; I also realize that Dalia turned Erika down for obvious reasons, but Erika clearly still wants to pursue her even after the failed confession, hence I label her as an alternate romantic partner).

I agree on Suoh/Erika. I cannot see them as a romantic partners, just as best friends. No, but why "just"? I shouldn't say that. If Flowers has taught me anything (well, it taught me many things about myself which I already knew but also never knew), it's the fact that friendship is not simply another step before romantic love or that romantic love is not an ultimately superior form of love, and that friendship can often be more important, valuable and fulfilling than romance.

Yeah, now I think that I have projected too much of my Printemps impressions of Rikka on her whole ark in the series. I just found her possessive attitudes in Ete and Automne too creepy, so I thought that she still didn't let go of her "I feel as if my toy is being taken away" feeling towards Suoh, which might have colored my perception.
By the end of Hiver she is simply...happy if Suoh is happy. She was able to let go of her possessiveness, for the most part. The Cendrillon play exemplifies this by making her give her blessing to Suoh/Cendrillon and Mayuri/Prince as the Queen.

I'm afraid not and I can't imagine the material to be all that fascinating to me personally. From a historical context I am rather well versed in the treatment of women across Japan's medieval up to WW2 period.

Rather than talking about treatment of Japanese women in general, it focuses on highly specific topics like how the generally accepted traditional Japanese definition of love (both romantic and parental love) had changed under the influence of Christian mission in Japan and came to be viewed as the path of personal growth and betterment. Does this sound familiar? wink wink
It also talks a lot about the birth of class S and its politics, about how it was tied to Japanese early feminist movement. It pretty much explains where exactly all those tropes came from and why they were so common and popular back then, popular to the point of making Nobuko Yoshiya one of the, if not the wealthiest pre-war writer in Japan. And it also has a whole chapter dedicated to Nobuko Yoshiya's "Two Virgins in the Attic" (I also should note that the very ending of that novel is quite reminiscent of Automne's True End; I thought that this particular bit would be of interest to you as well).

last edited at Jul 21, 2022 8:39AM

Rather than talking about treatment of Japanese women in general, it focuses on highly specific topics like how the generally accepted traditional Japanese definition of love (both romantic and parental love) had changed under the influence of Christian mission in Japan and came to be viewed as the path of personal growth and betterment. Does this sound familiar? wink wink

The reach of Christian principles in Japan is often highly overstated. Even in the early times of open ports and borders, Taoism and Shintoism were overhwelmingly more far spread and dominant as a cultural seedbed and continued to be such. Then during the 200 years of isolation Western influences mostly only spread in certain ports that continued trade with the rest of the world and whithered as a subversion to the established culture. The true Christian influence only came back with the reopening to the world before WW1.

It also talks a lot about the birth of class S and its politics, about how it was tied to Japanese early feminist movement. It pretty much explains where exactly all those tropes came from and why they were so common and popular back then, popular to the point of making Nobuko Yoshiya one of the, if not the wealthiest pre-war writer in Japan. And it also has a whole chapter dedicated to Nobuko Yoshiya's "Two Virgins in the Attic"

I am fairly familiar with both Class S' cultural basis and Nobuko Yoshiya's works. I am also highly critical of both, but alas, it's pointless to get upset about the means of the past when we live in the present shaped by their results.

I realize that I'm continuing an off-topic discussion, so I swear that it's my last post about this, please spare me, oh great and mighty moderators!

The true Christian influence only came back with the reopening to the world before WW1.

Well, that's the exact historical period which is discussed in that publication: from the Meiji period which brought Westernization to the front and up to pre-WW2 societal radicalization (which, in particular, resulted in the official ban of class S); and the vast majority of its bibliography are Japanese sources (journals, newspapers, publications, etc). For example, it talks about how the language itself had transformed and adapted to reflect this cultural shift surrounding new perception of love. I've looked through some sources in Japanese and, I think, their general academic consensus is pretty much the same: there's quite a clear divide between pre-Meiji era purely Japanese and post-Meiji era Westernized perception of love, including romantic love.

I am fairly familiar with both Class S' cultural basis and Nobuko Yoshiya's works. I am also highly critical of both, but alas, it's pointless to get upset about the means of the past when we live in the present shaped by their results.

When viewed from a modern perspective, it obviously should be judged critically. But "Two Virgins" is a pretty special case, because it might be the first fictional story about same-sex love which has a positive, if not a happy ending. IIRC, Yoshiya'd primary drive for writing this novel was something of a dissatisfaction with the things she wrote previously, and she even was ready to invest her personal savings into its publication.
Some researchers propose that it is semiautobiographical and reflective of Yoshia's personal experience living at the dormitories of YWCA (Young Women's Christian Association) in Tokyo.

Just a handful of tiny excerpts (Not sure if this is fully acceptable legally and morally, but I'm citing these examples just for, well, educational purposes, so...)

I also view Automne's ending as an inversion of Marimite's quite famous double chapter "Forest of Thorns/White Petals" (it's even more similar to the ending of that arc in the anime adaptation). Or, maybe, Hatsumi read "Two Virgins", but Konno Oyuki simply didn't. :/

last edited at Jul 24, 2022 5:58AM

Well, I saw the translations for the Flowers 20 Anniversary thing. Very sweet stuff. I'm glad Rikka has a new trio, despite being separated from Suoh and Mayuri for most of the year.

I struggle to find anything relating to Couleur though as far as translation goes, which is a bummer. I can still enjoy the art at least.

@Lilification
There's a certain Discord server mentioned in the fan wiki.

@Licentious Lantern
I would like to clarify something.

it's the explicit goal for most of the girls taken by the Goddess of Truth.

I'm probably misreading this line because you might be speaking figuratively here, but I just have to make sure that we are on the same page.
Yes, you could say that they are “taken” if you’re sticking to the legend, to the mystery itself, but, in truth (oh the irony), the Goddess of Truth is the girl herself who is “taken” by Mother Elder, the Tulpa of Agape.
From the mansion scene:
#Suoh: The Goddess of Truth is the girl who is taken away by Mother Elder as Sion Basquiat.

update:
I reread some of the things that I wrote in my previous posts, and one particular thing that I said, the way I worded it...well, it's not good. I wish to make it clear that I don't find any joy in those tragic class S tropes and narratives themselves (after all, they are based on real, lived experiences of real women). Rather, I was glad to see how one of them was used for telling a firmly positive ending for the series. And even though it's an incredibly bitter finale for them, at least in death Sayuri and Sion were finally reunited. It's an ending and a closure that no class S story ever gave to its readers and characters.
Class S-inspired works (and similar non-Japanese works, especially one certain Canadian film) were my introduction to yuri and wlw narratives 16 years ago. And yet, with time I became tired of them and alienated from them for many reasons, the main of which was the realization that I wanted happy endings. But at the same time no matter how many hundreds of stories I read and watched, I couldn't find anything (or at least any long-form work beyond a few very close candidates like Simoun) that would enthrall and grip me quite as strongly as Marimite, its world and characters, was able to capture my mind. So for me Flowers is like a gestalt closure, like a bridge over the gap that unites old and new, merges an archaic past with a modern meaning.

last edited at Jul 25, 2022 6:31AM

FInally some room to breathe again. I added a few more VNs to the list. I especially recommend "Who is the Red Queen?" Studio Elan has not disappointed me yet. Although this one really leans into the horror, so it is not for everyone.

In other news I have been playing a lot of Heaven Burns Red. Of course it would be erroneous to call it a Visual Novel per se, but it's plot is basically structured like one in every way due to Key Studio's involvement no doubt. It surprised me for having a good plot and polish despite being a Gacha game. It also has plenty of both implied and spelled out yuri elements. If you can read Japanese or have some translation software I recommend trying out the Steam version.

---

Now, for another few of my favorite bits of Hiver as promised. These are just random things that I found interesting.

If you 100% the game and unlock the 4komas (which I assume are canon).... we figure out that the twincest ending of Automne is canon and runs parallel to the true ending. There is not a single hint of this in Hiver's actual plot, so this caught me incredibly off-guard.
Here is the 4koma in question (which I seriously had to screenshot, because I cant find it anywhere on the web (I am not loading the image on this page, because spoilers. Just click the link, I swear it's not a virus))
https://i.imgur.com/DEbFn3q.png

This may just be my favorite moment in Hiver and shows why Mayuri should have been around far earlier. Rikka really has her own triangle now just like Lilification mentioned about the 20th Anniversary special elaborated on. If only we could have seen more of that instead of her thirdwheeling Suoh/Mayuri so hard.
https://i.imgur.com/3QgCrSp.png

Finally, this is the best musical piece in all of FLOWERS bar none and yes, I am including the vocal songs in that list. I can't believe how amazing this track is. It makes me feel every emotion of the series at once. That violin violates my emotional core and plays my heart like a string.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3jH0_sEayI

In general I believe the OST is not discussed enough. For example the fact that a lot of the mainstay tracks appear in every volume, but are always slightly remixed. If you dont listen to them right after each other you may never even notice, but they have subtle variations that evoke different moods for each installment. I only figured it out when I listened to a compilation of all music in the series in one go. Why is this series so amazing?

last edited at Aug 17, 2022 4:50PM

The OSTs are probably my second favorite part of Flowers. Sugina Miki's art firmly holds that top spot, however.

I need to go through and pick favorites from each season. I feel like some of them might seem a little unusual, though. Like ete, I think my favorite might be L'enfant Perdu, there's something about it that resonates with me. It's not the same kind of tearjerker kind of emotional theme that I look for in the other seasons, but I think that might be part of what makes it a little special to me.

Thorn in the Heart from Printemps is one of those that cuts deep, and I like that in a theme. Especially for the overall tone of the series. An honorable mention goes to Mayuri's Tota Pulchra Es, but I feel that almost goes without saying.

For Automne... I'm once again going to set Tota Pulchra Es aside in favor of Memoire. Don't get me wrong, I love the vocal tracks dearly, but I feel like the way some of these background themes resonate with me, with the story, pull everything together so well. That melancholy feeling of days past...

Finally, Hiver, I think I would have to choose Cendrillon. I think it's the perfect lead up to the surprise, especially considering the events it followed. There's a somberness in the strings that I feel sets better to Suoh's mood at this point than to the play itself, and that elevates it for me.

Honestly, I feel like it's a bit difficult to really pick favorites, but I think that despite appreciating the soundtracks as a whole, these themes in particular stand at the front, even if by only a slim margin.

The OSTs are probably my second favorite part of Flowers. Sugina Miki's art firmly holds that top spot, however.

When it comes to the art of FLOWERS I have seen very polarizing views. I find myself in the middle. The art itself is absolutely gorgeous, especially the background images, the nearly painting like details in some cases are absolutely perfect for immersion. The character sprites are also very high quality, if a bit lacking in varied expressions.

What is lacking from my perspective is actually the design direction itself. Characters don't look distinct enough with some notable exceptions (e.g. Erika and Yuzuriha). The characters all suffer from same face syndrome and if zoomed in sometimes are almost impossible to tell apart on a glance, which any artist can tell you is not a good thing. I don't think hair should be the only distinction, it is a weakness that a lot of more generic anime art suffers from, which I find odd for a series like FLOWERS that is generally very distinct.

For Automne... I'm once again going to set Tota Pulchra Es aside in favor of Memoire. Don't get me wrong, I love the vocal tracks dearly, but I feel like the way some of these background themes resonate with me, with the story, pull everything together so well. That melancholy feeling of days past...

Memoire is actually my favorite of Automne as well, what a coincidence. There is something to be said about the beauty of vocal tracks no doubt, but I almost consider it cheating to go for them (especially when they are pre-existing pieces rather than originally composed like Fairy Wreath).

When I selected Allium as my overall favorite I did not even take into consideration how the music benefits the scenes it is played in or how it serves a narrative function, I was honestly just speaking from the heart which piece moved me the most. With this kind of ranking system we could go in circles forever honestly, like comparing all 4 Volume's remixes of the main tracks and rank those, but I feel it to be a bit pointless. They do all try to convey different meanings to suit their season.

The general impact of the OSTs can't be denied. It is a wholly memorable selection that actually stuck with me and evokes nostalgia somehow, despite me having played the entire series in under a year's time. There is nothing to be nostalgic about, yet I find myself reminiscing over the series like it was a big chunk of my life itself each time I hear its music. That is the power of the composition that consistently excelled and set the mood. Although I can't claim to remember even half of the humorously bad French song titles, I can always recognize the music itself and associate it with a scene or place.
The seclusion of the setting and story in its own world somehow combined with the tracks and creates an oddly comfortable space in my head. It's almost dissociative in its power to separate me from reality and draw me back into Saint Angreacum.

Akai Ito and Aoi shiro will receive a HD remaster for Switch and PC.
An english language support is planned.

https://www.gematsu.com/2022/09/akai-ito-aoi-shiro-hd-remaster-announced-for-switch-pc

I had just started Aoi shiro. I think I'll put it on hold for a while. The english translation is correct, but to have a translation for the menu and the dictionnary is a good news.