Forum › Posts by Nevri
I think that's silly
So focusing on only what is in the text is silly? I'll remember that.
I don't think people just have mindsets and then not apply them
She applies it. To herself. Just because you think you will be the happiest living normal live, doesn't mean you think everyone else should do it as well, because that is obviously the only way to live happily. You can think living your life on the edge is the best way to enjoy it, doesn't mean you think everyone should risk their life all the time.
Please tell me where I attributed anything to malice. Aren't you the one equating me saying that she's heteronormative (which she is) with me saying she's a bad person?
I was saying it more in general here. Not you, but it seems a lot of other people do think that way.
It's a bit of an edgy joke, don't mind it.
If you tried to refer to how gay people were "cured" then I got it.
Sorry, but liking more than 1 person at the time is very uncommon in real world
Do you have a source on this bold claim? The topic of polyamory is controversial and understudied, but that doesn't mean you can dismiss it off out of hand. And that's just the topic of actual relationships - you don't have to be in a relationship to fancy more than one person at the same time, so it would be even more common if you use common sense.
Not really. Well I don't have studies or anything, but if we're going with common senses, humanity as a whole? Popular media focus 90% on love. Music, books, movies, TV shows, almost everything is about love or have love in it. And even then, just looking around you. Your family, your friends, your neighbors, your coworkers, famous people. How many of them are in polyamorous relationships? Or expressed loving 2 or more people at the same time and willing to be in relationship with all of them? Not many I can imagine. At no point I tried to say people like that don't exist, but if we're going by what is the most common thing to happen, then majority of people expect relationship to happen between 2 people. Whatever it make sense or is practical, idea of finding the one love and spending entire life with them is the most ingrained one and held as base line. Even if you like 2 people, you're expected to choose only 1 and focus on them. It is presented so strong in our culture, saying it isn't in human nature is being dishonest. And all of this is beside the point anyway.
What I was referring to was, that whatever or not something like what matsuri_wins was suggesting was possible in real life, didn't matter. Fiction is nowhere near as flexible as real life most of the time. People write stories to appeal to as many people as possible and follow things that are common and expected. And sadly what is most common and expected in romance genre is that only 2 characters will get together. Trying to write story about someone pursuing 2 people at once, conscious or not, is just not something you normally write. You can twist a formula for sure, but I have hard time believing any editor would see it as good idea. They are trying to make money, not write good stories after all. The point is it being just straight romance (or angst) makes more sense narratively, when you try to sell a book. As I said, if it was real life, I would be actually be more inclined to believe it, because real live stories are way more surprising than anything fiction can ever come up with. It's ironic that fiction is trying to imitate real life, but at the same time is much more predictable and structured than real life ever is. Of course author can still surprise me and prove me wrong, but considering fiction as a whole, I think they will rather stick to what was already proved to be safe bet.
The fact sentence "They are trying to make money, not write good stories after all." is true and I had to write it, made me feel so sad
last edited at Jan 5, 2019 8:23AM
I'm not saying normal can't meant straight, but you guys really seems to focus on that part way too much
We've just read enough manga to know what this means in this context. It means conforming to social norms.
Fair enough. I simply choose to not do that and instead only focus on work in question.
and try to paint her (and/or author) as some huge homophobe
I, for one, never said that. I just said she has a heteronormative mindset and that I think (and hope) that the manga will show her getting cured
And I said, even if she has, story itself so far didn't give us evidence she is applying this mindset to anyone else except for herself. She might and future chapter might show us her saying this yuritopia is wrong, because that is not the way things are supposed to be, but for now we simply did not see that. Also her considering straight norm is not a issue, as long as she doesn't reject or deny others their identity or right to exist and so far she was acceptance of other people being gay (namely her 2 friends), despite how out of place it was for her (yesterday they were straight and 1 dated a guy). Also cured is very weird word to use here.
I forgot last time, but since we're using famous quotes then:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Although I would use word "ignorance" in this specific case.
She says multiple times that she likes being futsuu ( or existing in a state of affairs that is futsuu, whether it's a heterosexual relationship, or a world where heterosexual couples exist), instead of this strange dimension. She also says that she is uncomfortable with whatever is happening. Straight or not straight, homophobic or not, she says and thinks those things in the chapter. Doubting her words when we have no reason to believe she's lying, is what I'd call a stretch.
And I'd agree with you, but we clearly see she is not yet aware anything happened to her world. So far all she noticed is that the amount of usually smaller/non existence lesbian couples increased drastically, her friends suddenly turned gay since yesterday and guys are conspicuously missing. What used to be normal to her, you don't see openly gay couple everywhere, your straight friends keep being straight, guys exist, suddenly is no longer the case and that is what make her feel uncomfortable. She noticed something changed, but she is unaware of nature of that change. That is why until she becomes aware of what is happening and make conscious, informed comment on it, I'm holding myself from judging her thoughts as if they applied to being gay or living in this yuri paradise, because she herself does not make them with that in mind.
And again, all of this might become irrelevant with next chapter if she goes and do all those things you guys accuse her of doing. I'm simply judging her only on the information we have so far.
last edited at Jan 4, 2019 9:52PM
Character:
Normal is number one.
Normal is the best.
Normal is love.Occam's Big Paisley Tie:
she was talking about what her standard for having a normal, happy life are and wasn't necessary applying them to everyone in general. She wasn't saying everyone should aim to be normal, just she wants
That is dishonest. Where does it say she thinks everyone should live like that? She only proclaims it in her inner monologue to herself, making audience understand how much she wants to live "normal live" and then the twist is, her normal lives stopped being normal, because something unexplained happened to her. Until we get a scene where she tells gay girls that being gay is not normal and they should live normal lives, because normal is the best, I'm not going to jump to conclusions, she wants enforce her norm on everyone else.
I'm not saying normal can't meant straight, but you guys really seems to focus on that part way too much and try to paint her (and/or author) as some huge homophobe, rejecting sole idea of being gay as being normal, when she never said anything like that. Can't straight girl say she likes being straight? She has to include everyone else even in her thoughts?
last edited at Jan 3, 2019 12:36PM
- So the idea that she was aware that different normals can exist and was talking about her own normal just seems like an enormous stretch compared to the possibility that the author was just following the trope.
I wasn't saying she considered different norms. I meant, she was talking about what her standard for having a normal, happy life are and wasn't necessary applying them to everyone in general. She wasn't saying everyone should aim to be normal, just she wants. And sure, she is straight, of course to her being straight is norm and that is what she consider normal (again, I already explained why normal=/=good and not normal=/=bad, but it's common for people to conflate those 2 things). All I'm saying is that 1. neither she or author are saying being gay is bad or don't consider it a valid option 2. she didn't openly reject idea of homosexuality. At least not yet.
She complains about the gay dimension making her feel uncomfortable and uneasy multiple times. She's not happy about any of this.
Again, nothing suggest what she is uncomfortable with is other people being gay. She noticed something is off, something changed, but she isn't sure what. Also sure she is straight and having a het love is normal for her and she aims for it, but at no point she shows disgust or rejected other girls for being gay. In fact only time she says anything is when she sees 2 of her friends kissing, when yesterday they were straight and 1 had boyfriend. And still she follows it with "I'm not against it". There is still chance she will say something homophobic in future chapters, but so far we didn't see her making any statements about being gay specifically.
last edited at Jan 3, 2019 10:17AM
And a special acknowledgment to the author of Niven's Law: "There is a technical, literary term for those who mistake the opinions and beliefs of characters in a novel for those of the author. The term is 'idiot'."
- S.M. Stirling¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They were talking about MC ^ ^"
Again removing heteronormativity shouldn't be about twisting everything so straight people will walk on eggshells all the time and be afraid to not include some very minor part of minor group when they talk
Sure, but there's also nothing wrong with pointing out that heteronormative things are heteronormative
I never said it is, but in this case I'm more convinced MC is talking about normal as average, common, uneventful life. Sure she might consider straight normal, but that is because she is straight and was applying it to herself. Again, next chapters can easily prove or disprove it, that is why I'm not excluding possibility I'm giving author too much credit.
last edited at Jan 2, 2019 9:51AM
Got Zhuge from guarantee. Fuck you DW.
Next one that I planned to TL since forever and never got to it. I guess I should just get used I can never get anything done.
That's pretty much built into the genre, though--"romance" stories end with the getting together (or not, as in tragic romance). Continuations can be slice-of-life, comedy, or drama, but plain romance (I'd say "straight romance," but you see the problem) is so popular and enough serial stories (not necessarily yuri or even manga) have fallen flat once the unresolved sexual tension gets resolved that the cycle becomes self-generating--audiences respond positively to the "getting together" dynamic, so that's what keeps getting produced.
I suppose you have a point. I guess I just read enough of "getting together" part and now I'm more interested in seeing actual couple life. I can still read and understand not every story is meant to keep going after they do, but still when I like a couple and got invested in them I want to actually see at least a bit of their life together.
Ah, sorry, there was a bit of a misunderstanding. I was thinking about making the manga overall. It may be just me, but I feel like the mangaka has some kind of goal by coming up with this story and drawing it. I thought the same for Kodomo no Jikan. I mean, they're mostly comedy, but sometimes I feel like the conversations get deep, probably too deep. Then again, I may be overthinking.
Well you asked why it was rushed and I gave you the most common explanation. But yea, authors usually have some specific idea or a reason for coming up with certain stories. If it got volume release I think there should be some afterwords from author. But what kinda information they tell us in those differs from author to author.
Pretty sure homonormative isn't a word.
The same way heteronormativity isn't.
To be frank, isn't that normal for majority of people? There seems to be misunderstanding about heteronormativity and what is and isn't inclusive etc. You see, lgbt makes up a very small portion of human population. So it is very safe to assume that by default most people you encounter and talk to are straight. It isn't wrong to do so. Sure it is nice and all when you're all inclusive and don't make definite statements like "find a boyfriend" or assume other person is straight by default, but not doing it doesn't hurt anyone. The issue arrives when after assuming that, other person is afraid to correct you or if they correct you, it becomes a issue. Assuming someone is straight is not wrong by itself. It is only when after being corrected instead of just acknowledging it, adjusting from now on and moving forward, you refuse to accept it and/or make a big deal out of it.
yikes. yeah, i'm outta here
Wow. So much for constructive conversation. As always you have to have everything given to you on a silver plate and catered to you. There is no room for compromise. I bet you didn't even understood what i was talking about in your close-minded homonormative head. You're doing exactly the same thing you accuse other people of doing and being wrong.
last edited at Dec 30, 2018 11:26AM
Which makes it another case of "If it's you, it's okay"
And there is nothing wrong with that.
well, the thing is... it might be the translation, so it's hard to say for sure, but the way some of her internal monologue is worded makes it sound less like it's her who's not used to seeing gay people, and more like it's the author themselves who thinks that homosexuality is abnormal? stuff like
"I, Uruuno Marika, fall in love just like any normal person."
"To live normally. To fall in love normally. To have a normal wedding, build a normal family, and die a normal death."
I think she just means normal as in without anything special or weird happening. After all a lot of us wish or wished to have "normal" life. Even gay people can wish for "normal" life, as in life without oppression etc. I'm pretty sure the word she used doesn't imply that there is some set of normal and abnormal and more like common, average. As I said, that is what is normal to her. She doesn't inherently put any negative value on stuff that is not normal, as long as it doesn't affect her life in way she doesn't want it to.
these lines use 'normal' as a shorthand for 'straight', which... well, it's literally what heteronormativity is.
Again, you're looking at it too narrow-minded. No, normal here means common, average. Depending on what happens in next chapter you can even argue that her saying "to fall in love normally" doesn't refer to it being with a boy, but rather, for it to occur in very typical, mundane way. Basically she doesn't want anything unexpected or strange to happen in her life and she want to live it in peace. Sucks to be her because she is protagonist of a manga, so living normal, peaceful life is the last thing they do.
but what makes it feel like it's coming from the author and not her is how it doesn't feel the need to specify that for her, 'falling in love normally' means 'falling in love with a boy'. it just... says it and expects the audience to be on the same page? which says a whole lot about where the author's coming from. and while we're at it...
To be frank, isn't that normal for majority of people? There seems to be misunderstanding about heteronormativity and what is and isn't inclusive etc. You see, lgbt makes up a very small portion of human population. So it is very safe to assume that by default most people you encounter and talk to are straight. It isn't wrong to do so. Sure it is nice and all when you're all inclusive and don't make definite statements like "find a boyfriend" or assume other person is straight by default, but not doing it doesn't hurt anyone. The issue arrives when after assuming that, other person is afraid to correct you or if they correct you, it becomes a issue. Assuming someone is straight is not wrong by itself. It is only when after being corrected instead of just acknowledging it, adjusting from now on and moving forward, you refuse to accept it and/or make a big deal out of it.
Does the fact most people consider het relationship only options and most stuff is only framed with it in mind, annoys me? Sure. But I understand why it is that way, because that is what is normal to majority of people and most of them will have very limited or almost not existence experience with anyone from lgbt group. Again removing heteronormativity shouldn't be about twisting everything so straight people will walk on eggshells all the time and be afraid to not include some very minor part of minor group when they talk. It should be about normalizing it in a way that once it is brought up, the first reaction is not a shock/surprise but just simple acknowledge of that fact. "Oh, you're gay? KK. I'll remember about it from now on". It's like assuming everyone is transsexual before proven otherwise. It applies to such small group it is just not practical in normal day to day life interactions. Some changes in default assumptions/perceptions are pretty much welcome, but I wouldn't expect anything drastic. After all expecting majority to completely change the way they act just to sometimes avoid hurting feelings of minority, is unreasonable. Instead of trying to shallowly please each other, it should be more about building a real understanding. And if it catches on, the chances are people will become more sensitive and considering about it naturally.
on top of that, the fact that she's the protagonist gives her 'normal' a greater weight than anyone else's. you might've heard of protagonist-centered morality, and this is a similar thing; so when she says "this isn't normal", unless the work goes out of its way challenges that (and it doesn't), we're implicitly expected to agree with her.
Again, it bases on assumption her normal refers to "being gay is bad" and well, it is first chapter in which neither MC or anyone else realized anything even happened, so there is no way to assume her thinking won't be addressed. Again I think the whole point of this first chapter was more that MC doesn't want anything out of ordinary happening in her life and then boom, she transfers to/her word is replaced with alternative universe where everything is similar but guys died out and she is the only straight person left. The premise is that her normal life stopped being normal, not about how being gay is not normal.
also "not having anything against gay people" really does not mean much at all, especially when one of her lines in the classroom ("There can't possibly be any abnormalities in my normal life") is awfully close to 'i'm ok with gay people, as long as they're not gay near me'
Again, overinterpretation. The situation as a whole is abnormal. The 2 straight girls she knows suddenly date each other and kiss in the open (which ignoring whatever it is because of homophobia or not, probably didn't happen regularly or at all in MC's life, hence it's not something she normally see), then all girls seems to be into each other and guys are conspicuously missing. She realized something is not right, not the way it always was, but she can't put her finger on what it is yet. Again, at no point she singled out girls being into other girls as the thing she thinks is abnormal.
Or I could be just overthinking it myself and manga turns out to be garbage ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Happened before.
but "is being abnormal bad" is a great question, and one that i hope this series engages with! because often, discussions over what's normal or abnormal are actually about what's good or bad.
There is also misconception about what normal and (not normal) abnormal means. It is all statistic. It is just what is more common to happen. Being into movies is a more common (normal) hobby than being into collecting stamps. Abnormal is more about what happens less often. It isn't inherently worse because of it. But as Quiescent-Rose said, humans, especially Japanese, care a big deal about being part of the group. What is seen as normal is just what most people agree is right. It becomes a standard just on the notion of it being the most held opinion, when what is seen as not common (abnormal) is treated as something bad, because people simply don't see its value. So basically people like when everyone agrees with their opinions, so opinions that more people share become standard of what is and isn't acceptable. So when you happen to disagree with that opinion, you're judged as abnormal, despite their opinion not being any more valid than yours. It's also part of the fact that people naturally create their groups around us and them mentality. When you disagree on something you become outsider and not part of the group, so you're naturally rejected and discriminated. Because there is no value in someone who is not following rules everyone else agreed to. Human psychology is pretty fucked up when you think about it.
BTW did everyone who isn't a girl get changed into one or did they just blink out of existence? Like, I'd definitely notice that first, right? I wouldn't want to lose half my family, even for a cause as righteous as a yuritopia.
Except it is pretty clearly established, whatever happened, only MC is aware of it. For everyone else, that is how things always were. So for them nobody disappeared, because they didn't exist in the first place.
Also, why would God or all powerful aliens etc bother with that lol?
If I learned anything from isekais is that any entity on god-like level is bored af and does stuff like that for shit and giggles.
last edited at Dec 30, 2018 9:23AM
Though, does anyone know why the ending was this rushed ? Is there some kind of postface from the author ? It'd be interesting to know the author's intentions by making this.
It's hard to say whatever that is how author wanted to end it, but I assume the same thing that happened to any other manga with rushed/unsatisfying ending. It got axed.
I never considered it a yuribait. Just a comedy story that happened to have a lesbian character. Yukimori was handled very well and just the fact her love was treated and addressed seriously, made it satisfying to me, so them getting together at the end was more of a cherry on the top. I would be perfectly fine if they didn't because that wasn't something I expected going into it. I thought it will be your standard het and having lesbian character (which I managed to guess from hints, before it was even revealed) was already a great surprise (especially since she is my favorite character in it), so the fact they not only end up together, despite clearly rushed ending, but we were actually shown it is serious (as in, they fucked) feels very satisfying.
those types of people probably would have had hell or just quit with "Fluttering Feelings" haha, that one truly frustrated people when it came for progress of the main pairing,
The fact you don't understand that FF problem with "progress" stemmed from artificially dragging it out, rather than it being slow paced, is what is the issue.
I personally would like to see more stories focused on an existing relationship rather than "how so and so got together after a 1000 misunderstandings".
That is my issue with most stories. Not that they are slowed paced/progress take time, but that once we finally make progress, the story ends there. Authors are never willing or able to actually explore how it is in the relationship they were building and leading to entire series. It's that idea that getting into relationship is the most interesting part and being in it is just a afterthought. Which in turn hurts stories themselves, because authors make everything to drag them out as long as possible, before they hook up, because hooking up means end of story.
last edited at Dec 30, 2018 7:04AM
Maybe instead of the entire world magically changing overnight, it's a case where she ended up in an alternate universe where males disappeared ages ago?
Same thing to me. Her world 1 day magically changed into alternative universe. She still could be only person affected/unaffected.
wow, you really gotta hand it to this author. it's not everyday you see a story whose characters are almost all gay that still manages to be so annoyingly heteronormative
Well maybe because they aren't. They were turn magically gay over night from totally straight girls.
and from the comedy framing, it doesn't look likely that the protagonist's idea of "normal" will be challenged, either... eugh.
She doesn't think it is normal, because she is the only girl that wasn't affected by miracle magic, so she still is straight and doesn't understand why everyone is suddenly openly gay. She has nothing against being gay, it just wasn't something she saw everyday from every angle, so what felt "normal" to her yesterday, suddenly is not normal anymore. Also challenging her perception of normal seems to be kinda the premise of this manga as she is the only straight girl left in yuri paradise.
I pity the poor soul.
last edited at Dec 29, 2018 8:41PM
That is interesting premise. So all guys disappeared overnight and girls become gay, except for MC.
It updated! Praise Madoka!
@TheLostLight
Sounds about right to me.