frigidbones posted:

"to denounce a society in which men always take the (sexual) initiative over women. We also wish to show our dissatisfaction toward men who don't understand women's natural sexual desires"

That has nothing to do with yuri though.

= yuri as radical feminism

And definitely nothing to do with feminism, radical or not.

Yeah, its definitely not a representative characterization of how most artists write yuri, I just claim it as my favorite of the lot. Also, I wanted to give an example of at least 2 fairly explicitly feminist yuri creators. I'm not sure why denouncing male sexual dominance and male gazey, one-dimensional constructions of women's sexuality* would have nothing to do with feminism. Which is not to say that the authors achieve that perfectly through "she-wolf" but I love that they're at least engaging radical feminist lines of thought.
*admittedly, I don't love their use of "natural" in the quote

last edited at Apr 13, 2017 1:55AM

frigidbones posted:

Yeah, its definitely not a representative characterization of how most artists write yuri

It isn't representative of yuri at all. Yuri is about love between 2 females. You can push your agendas through it, but on it's core, it isn't part of what makes yuri, yuri.

I'm not sure why denouncing male sexual dominance and male gazey, one-dimensional constructions of women's sexuality* would have nothing to do with feminism.

I said it has nothing to do with yuri. Yuri is about lesbians and lesbians has nothing to do with feminism. You don't become lesbian so you are no longer "dominated" by guys or are free to express your sexuality and needs. You are lesbian because you like freaking girls. There is no trying to become freed from male supremacy or some crap like that. In fact the story you gave as example gets a lot flag because it suggest the only reason girls become interested in girls are because they had bad experiences with guys and become scared and/or distant from them. It still has nothing to do with "being freed from men" but rather is example of running away from reality. Also I love how you shoehorn the "male gaze" in there.

Which is not to say that the authors achieve that perfectly through "she-wolf" but I love that they're at least engaging radical feminist lines of thought.

And I fail to see how it is a good thing and reading that quote I'm pretty sure you and article took it out of context and use it to push your pointless agenda. The problem of sexuality in japanese is that everyone is expected to find their partner, make family and have kids. Being a lesbian is only treated as just a phase. Men are expect to be the ones in charge as well as women are expected to be shy, obedient and in general perfect waifus waiting for their husbandos at home. The idea of girls having their own sexual desires is mostly shamed and the idea of pure virgin that is totally innocent and has no idea about sex and is easily embarrassed is the most prominent. I'm pretty sure the meaning of what those authors said is more to show 1. lesbianism is a serious business 2. girls have their needs too. I could bet it has nothing do to with feminism, which is mostly american creation anyway and for the most part lost its purpose long ago.

*admittedly, I don't love their use of "natural" in the quote

I don't see anything wrong with it unless you suggest women don't have natural sex desires, which is even more insulting to read.

Actually given that some of the more influential yuri-defining authors of Japan were ardent feminists I think it's absolutely quite relevant: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobuko_Yoshiya comes to mind in particular.

Ah, looking into the posted article on the previous I see she's given an entire section if discussion. This is exceedingly relevant!

last edited at Apr 13, 2017 2:39AM

I'm still pretty sure the japanese feminism and american one are quite different and the vibe I'm getting from frigidbones posts is they are speaking about american's.

love between 2 or more women is a good definition for the sake of utility and tagging. But for any other purpose, I think its unsatisfying to ignore that love between 2 women is a political act. You describe those politics as "the problem of sexuality in Japan" and Yuri is shaped by these politics (I mean the class S genre and the curse of infinite schoolgirl yuri didn't come from a cultural vacuum) - and yeah, it would be a mistake to position Western Feminism as the the most authentic voice for writing yuri, but I think its rewarding to at least try and engage with that history and note the authors, like Zaoh Taishi and Eiki Eiki, who are more conscious of yuri as a political act.

I said it has nothing to do with yuri. Yuri is about lesbians and lesbians has nothing to do with feminism.

The authors I quoted are pretty open about how responding to male supremacy is a central part of their creation of lesbian text. And yeah, most lesbians don't love women in order to piss off the patriarchy, at least not since the 1970s, but lesbians and lesbian fiction are two different kettles of fish. Sure, there's a huge market for respectable gay fiction that mimics dynamics of het love stories without challenge gender roles / sexism, but there are also lots of lesbian writes who actively engage with homophobia and gender norms in their work. Artists in general actually.

In fact the story you gave as example gets a lot flag.... Also I love how you shoehorn the "male gaze" in there.

Yep, she-wolf had good intentions but the execution was bad, its definitely easy to come away with the trope of "damaged lesbians." Also, you caught me, I threw the male-gaze in there as a modest self-indulgence.

I could bet it has nothing do to with feminism, which is mostly american creation anyway and for the most part lost its purpose long ago.

Since you indulged the male gaze, I'll indulge your post-feminism quip.

*admittedly, I don't love their use of "natural" in the quote

To clarify, radical feminists have a bad history with the term natural. Led to lots of transphobia, bierasure, kink shaming and other hierarchies of desire.

I'm still pretty sure the japanese feminism and american one are quite different and the vibe I'm getting from frigidbones posts is they are speaking about american's.

I self-identify as an American kill-joy feminist. But I did make an effort to ground my analysis of yuri as a political act in the work of Kazumi Nagaike

Best Quote: "Yurihime manga clearly represent women's subconscious desire to transcend the femaleness which has been imposed on them within the Japanese hetero-normative context. This analysis of lesbian sexuality/identity in contemporary Japan might well be enriched by examining the depiction of lesbian relationships in other kinds of manga and dōjinshi .... a comparative analysis may make it possible to discern how, in the Japanese sociocultural context, femaleness per se can be elaborated and thereby liberated from the patriarchal strictures which have previously been imposed."

last edited at Apr 13, 2017 4:45AM

frigidbones posted:

love between 2 or more women is a good definition for the sake of utility and tagging.

Em, no. That is literally the definition of yuri. There are no political or w/e elements to it. Again, you can push them using yuri, but yuri itself is not political.

But for any other purpose, I think its unsatisfying to ignore that love between 2 women is a political act.

Except it isn't. At this rate you will say love between man and woman is a political act and if you don't want to be sexist, racist, misogynist, patriarchy and male supremacy supporting person you can never be in het relationship.

You describe those politics as "the problem of sexuality in Japan" and Yuri is shaped by these politics (I mean the class S genre and the curse of infinite schoolgirl yuri didn't come from a cultural vacuum) - and yeah, it would be a mistake to position Western Feminism as the the most authentic voice for writing yuri, but I think its rewarding to at least try and engage with that history and note the authors, like Zaoh Taishi and Eiki Eiki, who are more conscious of yuri as a political act.

And as I said, you are clearly pushing the western feminism agenda that they didn't. You say it would be mistake to mix those 2 up and yet you are doing it by using those american terms that doesn't fit into context. I know about S genre etc. and that is what they fight against. They fight against those politics, not some non-existent male patriarchy american feminist believe into. In fact it is hard to fight against american male patriarchy living in Japan. And even if they do use yuri to give some message, it doesn't automatically make yuri political. It makes their works political and they just happen to use yuri, because they though it will fit the message better and enhance it more.

The authors I quoted are pretty open about how responding to male supremacy is a central part of their creation of lesbian text.

Not really as I explained before, but also because male supremacy doesn't exist in Japan or in general so they can't really make their works trying to abolish it. They might try to say something about other issues japanese faces but it definitely doesn't line up with your feminist ideas.

And yeah, most lesbians don't love women in order to piss off the patriarchy, at least not since the 1970s,

Wow. "Most" lesbians. So you are implying there exist lesbians that "become" lesbians just to piss of something that doesn't even exist? I feel so sorry for them.

but lesbians and lesbian fiction are two different kettles of fish.

Of course it is, but not the way you think. It is more of fiction is not always the same as reality and that is good or bad depending on the given work. Definitely has nothing to do with real lesbians are not "political act" but "lesbian fiction" is (though you just admitted "real" lesbians can be a political act too). Can you please not hijack entire genre (or however you want to call stories focusing or having lesbians in them) and arbitrarily make it all about pushing your political stances? Some of lesbian fictions are just that, fictions which doesn't give a fuck about what weird and fucked up thoughts are hiding inside your head and definitely doesn't want to be part of promoting them.

Sure, there's a huge market for respectable gay fiction that mimics dynamics of het love stories without challenge gender roles / sexism,

Wow, that one is a headache. What do you even mean by that? That people want to read gay stories that actually try to emulate dynamic of het and gender roles? That most people look for stories like that? That is probably the biggest bs I heard from you yet. Sure, there are works that feels a bit more like typical het couple, but that is not because they are trying to mimic het dynamic on purpose (though in some case I bet it is just easier for writer to write, not because of some political stances) and definitely not because they are sexist. In fact yaoi is infamous for doing this, while it is yuri that is usually more lenient about it and doesn't try to split girls into 2 specific roles and let them just act according to their characters. And the sexist part is again so shoehorn into it, it is really hard to take you seriously. Again, not every single yuri work has to comment on political etc. issues, so don't say it like works that don't do it, are inherently worse or bad in general. For someone who wants to argue about what yuri is and isn't you sure seems to not read a lot of them. Majority of yuri is all about challenging gender roles, because 2 girls getting together inherently challenges those gender roles. And again, it doesn't mean all yuri works are political by default, but because of nature of how the homosexual relationship works, it does usually tackle those type of issues, but isn't required too. Author can choose to totally ignore all of problems lesbian couples can face and there is nothing wrong with it. It is just yuridamn fiction.

but there are also lots of lesbian writes who actively engage with homophobia and gender norms in their work. Artists in general actually.

Which again is both very common in yuri stories because they are about lesbians and Japan can be pretty homophobic so when you try to write a realistic story, you have no choice but to address those issues otherwise your story won't feel realistic. If you want to go more in dept on commenting on those social issues, sure, but don't force all yuri to be political.

Since you indulged the male gaze, I'll indulge your post-feminism quip.

Again, nice straw man. I'm not indulging male gaze, but as you proved to me already you care more about made up stuff and assumptions than truth. Yet again, didn't even bother to refute my argument, rather ignore it.

To clarify, radical feminists have a bad history with the term natural. Led to lots of transphobia, bierasure, kink shaming and other hierarchies of desire.

So because of that we should avoid using word natural because you have bad history with it?

I self-identify as an American kill-joy feminist. But I did make an effort to ground my analysis of yuri as a political act in the work of Kazumi Nagaike

That is the problem with feminists right now. Everything has to be about political stances and oppression of women. Sure, you are a kill-joy feminist, but only thing you are achieving is killing fun. Nothing else.

Best Quote: "Yurihime manga clearly represent women's subconscious desire to transcend the femaleness which has been imposed on them within the Japanese hetero-normative context. This analysis of lesbian sexuality/identity in contemporary Japan might well be enriched by examining the depiction of lesbian relationships in other kinds of manga and dōjinshi .... a comparative analysis may make it possible to discern how, in the Japanese sociocultural context, femaleness per se can be elaborated and thereby liberated from the patriarchal strictures which have previously been imposed."

Well, then she got indoctrinated just fine, cos from what I read I only see more and more buzz words and forcing yuri into american feminist lenses.

Sure, there's a huge market for respectable gay fiction that mimics dynamics of het love stories without challenge gender roles / sexism,

Yeah, that is awfully general. I think that part got away from me a little bit, in terms of specifically talking about yuri.

So because of that we should avoid using word natural because you have bad history with it?

Nah, you can use natural. Its a good word. I was just trying to explain why it made me uncomfortable in the context of me clapping the authors on the back for being good, good feminists.

No shade by the way, I'm honestly not trying to troll you or anything, I just really like yuri and also feminism. Also, you're going to hate this, but I believe that fun is political.

last edited at Apr 13, 2017 6:29AM

Just to throw my two cents in here, I don't think "male gaze" is an especially useful term. It implies that maleness is inherently heterosexual, as well as inherently objectifying of women, which is actually rather sexist and hetero-centric. Even if it came out of attempts to challenge the default, stereotypical presentation of female bodies, it actively reinforces those stereotypes by associating them with half the planet.

I'm going cross-eyed, how did we get here from "what's yuri" again?

tmtvl posted:

I'm going cross-eyed, how did we get here from "what's yuri" again?

Because yuri is all about feminism and politics. You didn't know?

I'm going cross-eyed, how did we get here from "what's yuri" again?

Well, this thread was started around a discussion of how feminism does or does not relate to yuri, so I was actually just doing my best to get the conversation back on topic.