Let's face it: very few Yuri manga/ DJ are realistic. Come on, would any sane couple do this at school, right by the staircase? Wait actually don't answer that, we've got a few bad asses here The fact of the matter is that the culture has somewhat been fabricated through this kind of media, which is, I think, where the "No means yes" notion came from. It's been over used so much to the point where when I see a Dj where "Yes" is written, I'm taken aback. Which is why I like Tima's work: no dialogue is written during the sex scenes, apeasing both the "Yes" and "No" factions.

At least in the high school I went to, there were couples who would get a little too touchy-feely on school grounds -- it's not that uncommon. That aside, this is a common setting for doujins (school/classrooms are unsurprisingly popular) and it's a fantasy.

the culture has somewhat been fabricated through this kind of media, which is, I think, where the "No means yes" notion came from.

If you're implying that the idea of "no means yes" in Japanese culture is something that came from doujins, you're severely, severely misinformed. It's a very prevalent element of Japanese culture that you'll see in other areas (for example, in Japanese culture many don't flat out say "no" to an offer, but instead will indirectly imply a no. Another example is when being offered something; they refuse the first two offers -- if a third offer is made, then you can accept). In terms of sex, if you've ever heard the phrase 「厭よ厭よも好きのうち。」 (or roughly translated, "'No, no' can also mean yes") it can help to understand some. While a cliched and controversial phrase, it is a part of understanding the role that phrases like ｛いや」 and 「だめ」 play in doujins, and why you hear it so often; innocence is a huge part of Japanese feminine idealism. If anyone's ever heard of idol scandals where the idol in question was accused of having a boyfriend or sleeping around, and seen the huge backlash that she gets for that (oftentimes having to quit her career), then that may provide help as well. A striking example is Minegishi MInami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minami_Minegishi), and perhaps another high profile case is Hirano Aya's. Innocence/purity is a major part of what makes of the "ideal" woman in Japanese culture and leads women to display shame/reluctance in regards to sex so as to maintain that image of "purity". The moral implications of that notwithstanding, it does make sense why you see it so much in doujins, and why it isn't really "rapey" in keeping with the culture the media is from.

Point is, the "no means yes" thing isn't something fabricated through media. It is a part of Japanese culture and language outside of the bedroom. It just happens to also play a part inside of it, too.

I completely respect their culture and their views on accepting things, and was well aware of the "saying no twice then accept if offered the third time." I did say in my previous post that I have recently been desensitized by DJ and it's rapey feeling, but not this one especially : I was referring to the ones that are OBVIOUSLY rapey. When I said the media has fabricated the "No" view, I meant that some take it that no ALWAYS means yes.There's a huge difference between " Wait, stop, I'm about to....no..." and " PLEASE STOP BEFORE I CALL THE POLICE.GET OFF ME RIGHT NOW.I WILL CUT YOU."

Do we really need this discussion? Are most yuri doujin with a bit of "force" (i would not even call it that) going to be called rapey?

Sure, why not? What's wrong with talking about this? I think if there are multiple people who have some kind of negative reaction to the way Rin and Hanayo are acting in this doujinshi it's well worth thinking about.

I'll repeat: Discussing problematic elements is not a judgment call on the media itself nor the people who consume it. It's about awareness and, although less so with this particular work as we can hardly influence the Japanese scene, hopefully about improving the general quality of media as a whole.

It is not a problem if this discussion happens once. But if people start the discussion in this already very harmless douin, where does it stop? If enough people complain in the comments to many doujin are we going to have a "rapey" tag?

I am just afraid this is going to turn into tumblr 2.0

Oh no, not a tag. Anything but a tag. How terrifying. That looming spectre of political correctness gone too far, the dreaded tag. Truly, we must stop talking about this immediately, lest we draw the ire of the our harsh and unforgiving tag overlords. Thank goodness we had such brave and insightful protectors to warn us away from a dark, dystopian future where tags run rampant in the street, and the choking miasma of mild criticism irrevocably stains us to our very bones.

I am just afraid this is going to turn into tumblr 2.0

Full of pictures of Idris Elba and Benedict Cumberbach.

^ I pretty much explicitly said that I wasn't talking about doujinshi; of course no doujinka is going to be reading this. I was speaking in a general sense with that comment.

Also, I pretty strongly disagree with some of your arguments there, too. Just because it's "culturally acceptable" to have these sorts of aspects in media from that country doesn't mean it is thus immune to criticism. It's important to be aware of the cultural context in which these things are created (and trust me, I am), but that doesn't change the fact that I think all of the "purity" stuff and associated "expectations" of women are complete and utter bullshit.

I hate the way that idols like the AKB girls are expected to not date anyone almost entirely because of their fanbase wanting them to be "pure" and "untouched". I hated the "used goods" drama that happened when it came out that Nagi from Kannagi was not a virgin. And no amount of "Well, but that's their culture!" can justify that in my eyes.

But in that case the only thing you can do is ignore all kind of media that uses that concept completely, state your discomfort with the meaterial in question and move on with you live.

Why just to do that? Because as foreigner you don't have the elements to seriously criticize another culture. Even if isn;t your intention it ALWAYS comes off like "as member of a 'superior' culture I know what is better, therefore I have all the authority to judge or dismiss your culture" and that is how the conflicts alway start.

You want to change problematic issues within a culture? you have to do that by teaching newer generations about why that is wrong, any change to be truly significative needs to come from the inside.

Throwing my hat into the ring, let's not forget that in the anime Rin literally dragged Hanayo into joining and Hanayo forced Rin into the center when she clearly wasn't comfortable with it. The context is new, but the dynamic going on in this doujinshi doesn't strike me as anything new for these two.

Rin dragged Hanayo into joining Muse because Hanayo wanted to join
Hanayo wanted Rin to accept herself as cute.
Here Rin make Hanayo feel guilty to have what she wants when she could have it without making her feel guilty.

These two are the type not to do anything and not impose on others when they have problems. That's how I see it.

last edited at Dec 28, 2014 4:06PM

But in that case the only thing you can do is ignore all kind of media that uses that concept completely, state your discomfort with the meaterial in question and move on with you live.

Why just to do that? Because as foreigner you don't have the elements to seriously criticize another culture. Even if isn;t your intention it ALWAYS comes off like "as member of a 'superior' culture I know what is better, therefore I have all the authority to judge or dismiss your culture" and that is how the conflicts alway start.

You want to change problematic issues within a culture? you have to do that by teaching newer generations about why that is wrong, any change to be truly significative needs to come from the inside.

I know that.

To be frank, I don't see nothing particularly "rapey" on this doujin. Hanayo's denial is because she feels embarrased while Rin's insistence is because she has a pretty low self esteem and engagin on physical acts with Hanayo (on whom she sees everything she "lacks") as the only way to reassure herself, both as woman and as Hanayo's partner. This skewered perception stems in part by Hanayo's own low self esteem and lack of comunication (take notice how she's quick to back down once Hanayo makes clear she don't want to keep going and how fast the roles are reversed once Hanayo gets comfortable) The characterization feels in line with how they're depicted on the anime too.

This is exactly what I wanted to say and make clear of. Because NO it's not the doujin that's getting 'rapey', but it was these elements that were into play that you guys didn't consider. Like come on guys! Did Rin display a 'I want to rape you' face? No! Even the art is self explanatory.

I want a continue ! NOW

Ohoh
A bit forcefull, not really something for this ship

The one thing I want to add to this discussion is responding to the question of whether there really are so many empty classrooms et c —

It's probably not true of all schools, but particularly in the present low birthrate environment, schools are gonna be less crowded than they might otherwise be. Remember that Otonokizaka High is textually on the verge of being shut down, and that there used to be a much larger student body. The implication is that in the casts' mothers' school days, the school was fairly high class and well-appointed. Comment is made about how they're now down to a single class of first year students, so there's gonna be some unused classrooms lying around.

...Okay, I think I'm going to honestly just ignore the arguments above and just say, this was REALLLLLLY adorable!!! I loved it!~
RinPana are truly angelic, I love every doujin with them So long as it isn't Futa or some other nonsense AHEM!
HUUUUUUGE thanks to the Mangaka and the Translators! <3