I'm so amazed by how a doughnut can stand on a plate at an angle like that.

ya know for a manga about sadomasochism it's surprisingly not sexual at all XD I both love and hate it. But it's so cute and funny I can hardly complain. I don't want this to end ;-;

S&M isn't really about sex. It's about trust and control and submission. Sex is often associated with it because of ignorant writers and Hollywood.

Kitsune has just won the thread. Go home people, we're done here.

I dunno. Seems to me that's a matter of individual taste. I personally like sex in my S&M; just the power stuff with no lust holds little interest or point for me. Just because some people want to separate the two doesn't mean they belong apart. You can eat graham crackers without chocolate or marshmallows, too, but it would be wrong to say they have nothing to do with each other.

ya know for a manga about sadomasochism it's surprisingly not sexual at all XD I both love and hate it. But it's so cute and funny I can hardly complain. I don't want this to end ;-;

S&M isn't really about sex. It's about trust and control and submission. Sex is often associated with it because of ignorant writers and Hollywood.

Kitsune has just won the thread. Go home people, we're done here.

I dunno. Seems to me that's a matter of individual taste. I personally like sex in my S&M; just the power stuff with no lust holds little interest or point for me. Just because some people want to separate the two doesn't mean they belong apart. You can eat graham crackers without chocolate or marshmallows, too, but it would be wrong to say they have nothing to do with each other.

Look at it this way; S&M and sex have about as much of a connection as sex and whip cream; they aren't necessarily meant to go together, but they mesh really nicely when they do.

Sad to hear this wont be going on longer...its true at the pace the story has taken there could be 2-3 volumes at least....my fave part is it isnt overtly nsfw, its got the subtlety that can drive a person to lust! Hahaha
Anyone else thinking her foot woulda slipped and hit somewhere else? Or is that my perverted side showing :P
(I hope next ch. updates soon ^_^ thanks for translating!)

I like these two.

ya know for a manga about sadomasochism it's surprisingly not sexual at all XD I both love and hate it. But it's so cute and funny I can hardly complain. I don't want this to end ;-;

S&M isn't really about sex. It's about trust and control and submission. Sex is often associated with it because of ignorant writers and Hollywood.

Kitsune has just won the thread. Go home people, we're done here.

I dunno. Seems to me that's a matter of individual taste. I personally like sex in my S&M; just the power stuff with no lust holds little interest or point for me. Just because some people want to separate the two doesn't mean they belong apart. You can eat graham crackers without chocolate or marshmallows, too, but it would be wrong to say they have nothing to do with each other.

The culture of s&m isnt about sex (or only about sex), what individuals do with it is a whole 'nother story. Too many people watched or read 50 shades of nonsense and think that's what s&m is. Sunstone is a more accurate depiction.

Also what KittyCatOmaniac said.

last edited at Aug 12, 2015 9:52AM

Mfw this manga about extreme bdsm gets more of a shot at after confessions than most romance oone shots

The culture of s&m isnt about sex (or only about sex), what individuals do with it is a whole 'nother story. Too many people watched or read 50 shades of nonsense and think that's what s&m is. Sunstone is a more accurate depiction.

Also what KittyCatOmaniac said.

Just have to read "Nana to Kaoru".

There's absolutely no sex in it (lots of service though), but it's damn thrilling. One of the cutest dom/sub relationship I ever read about.

The culture of s&m isnt about sex (or only about sex), what individuals do with it is a whole 'nother story. Too many people watched or read 50 shades of nonsense and think that's what s&m is. Sunstone is a more accurate depiction.

Also what KittyCatOmaniac said.

Just have to read "Nana to Kaoru".

There's absolutely no sex in it (lots of service though), but it's damn thrilling. One of the cutest dom/sub relationship I ever read about.

There's no sex in the sense of going all the way, but it's clearly about sexual tension, about desire; they will get to sex sooner or later (not necessarily in the manga, but you know their relationship is headed in that direction). The SM in Nana to Kaoru is thoroughly sexual. If that's the kind of yardstick people are using for "Oh, no, no, SM isn't a sex thing" I am greatly skeptical.

And I think it's unnecessary, a sort of defensive reaction, taking on board a hint of puritanism from the critics, like "Oh, no, it's not some mere tawdry sex thing"--hello, sex is a foundation of our existence as biological organisms, we wouldn't be here without it as much as we wouldn't be here if we didn't eat. Obsession with sex is a basic important survival trait, so of course sex is intertwined hugely with our cultures, with huge amounts of what we do. Back to SM, if the point isn't driving that fundamental obsession (in a sometimes somewhat obscured way) then I don't get the point; I don't see how sex is just an optional extra. I can envision SM without a sexual component, I guess, but it seems like the drives involved must be much less basic.

(Although I suppose Tachi's reaction to SM is almost nonsexual, it's like a different kind of athletic effort for her. But I don't really grok her take on it for precisely that reason.)

last edited at Aug 12, 2015 1:10PM

The culture of s&m isnt about sex (or only about sex), what individuals do with it is a whole 'nother story. Too many people watched or read 50 shades of nonsense and think that's what s&m is. Sunstone is a more accurate depiction.

Also what KittyCatOmaniac said.

Just have to read "Nana to Kaoru".

There's absolutely no sex in it (lots of service though), but it's damn thrilling. One of the cutest dom/sub relationship I ever read about.

There's no sex in the sense of going all the way, but it's clearly about sexual tension, about desire; they will get to sex sooner or later (not necessarily in the manga, but you know their relationship is headed in that direction). Although I suppose Tachi's reaction to SM is almost nonsexual, it's like a different kind of athletic effort for her. But I don't really grok her take on it for precisely that reason.

Well, like previous poster said, it's not only about sexual tension. If you read the black label spin-off, it's also about renewing their bond, giving shape to their feelings, making it something special, because words aren't enough to show their mutual trust.

They never say "I love you" to each other. Saying it would change their relationship in ways they are afraid of. They communicate it through S&M. The sexual tension is there, but it's wrapped into a strong connection between the characters. Nana surrenders totally to Kaoru because she comes to trusts him completely. And he never betrays her either. He always come to her when he's needed. That's what a healthy dom/sub relationship is about: trust.

I find N&K's way to handle the sexual tension more erotic than sexual, because it's all in subtext. The connection between the characters is deeper than mere sexual desire.

As for Tachi, she shows feelings for Kaoru and almost confesses. I'd say that she envies and craves the kind of trust relationship between Nana and Kaoru, but there's no crack between them to get in.

last edited at Aug 12, 2015 1:13PM

Saying that there are other things going on as well is very different from saying there is "absolutely no sex". Of course there are other things going on as well. And very wonderful things they are; I don't disagree with a word you say. N to K is a really beautiful impressive manga.
I don't think I understand, though, the distinction you draw between "erotic" and "sexual". Surely the first is some sort of subset of the second?

last edited at Aug 12, 2015 7:09PM

Fave quote from Dogma : ""sex is a joke in heaven?" "As I understand it, its mostly a joke down here too""

The culture of s&m isnt about sex (or only about sex), what individuals do with it is a whole 'nother story. Too many people watched or read 50 shades of nonsense and think that's what s&m is. Sunstone is a more accurate depiction.

Also what KittyCatOmaniac said.

Just have to read "Nana to Kaoru".

There's absolutely no sex in it (lots of service though), but it's damn thrilling. One of the cutest dom/sub relationship I ever read about.

There's no sex in the sense of going all the way, but it's clearly about sexual tension, about desire; they will get to sex sooner or later (not necessarily in the manga, but you know their relationship is headed in that direction). The SM in Nana to Kaoru is thoroughly sexual. If that's the kind of yardstick people are using for "Oh, no, no, SM isn't a sex thing" I am greatly skeptical.

And I think it's unnecessary, a sort of defensive reaction, taking on board a hint of puritanism from the critics, like "Oh, no, it's not some mere tawdry sex thing"--hello, sex is a foundation of our existence as biological organisms, we wouldn't be here without it as much as we wouldn't be here if we didn't eat. Obsession with sex is a basic important survival trait, so of course sex is intertwined hugely with our cultures, with huge amounts of what we do. Back to SM, if the point isn't driving that fundamental obsession (in a sometimes somewhat obscured way) then I don't get the point; I don't see how sex is just an optional extra. I can envision SM without a sexual component, I guess, but it seems like the drives involved must be much less basic.

(Although I suppose Tachi's reaction to SM is almost nonsexual, it's like a different kind of athletic effort for her. But I don't really grok her take on it for precisely that reason.)

Well, maybe I can properly explain what's going on.

Sadism is the pleasure received when being aggressive towards someone. Kinda like the feeling you have when you want to squeeze a cute animal. Different, but similar. Masochism is the pleasure received when getting aggresived on, if that makes sense. Together it works very well and can become a very selfless relationship: you act as a sadist in order to make your partner feel good, and seeing that in turn makes you feel good. Vis-a-vis for masochism. (fun fact: existentially all babies are technically masochists...but that's a whole 'nutha discussion)

However, it's not necessarily a selfish desire-fulfilment. Harken to the scene where Yuuka commented how seeing Moe was upset about her music player being broken but didn't feel particularly good about it. She doesn't want to see Moe in actual pain. She herself wasn't in tune with her sadist side until she met Moe. There hasn't really been any predominantly sexual themes until this chapter. It's been mostly romantic.

Essentially S&M is about "i like to push my partner" and "i like to be pushed by my partner". It's a cyclical and lovely thing. I can't speak with complete ethos, of course, because I am only partially a masochist. But I can say that the main reason we can see a lot of their dynamic as sexual is because Occidentally (and partially Orientally, but far more for us) we are taught that sex and love are completely interlinked, much more so if physical contact is involved.

Explain? Well thanks awfully, here I thought this was a conversation but actually it was instruction all along? Very well, I'm done here then.

Explain? Well thanks awfully, here I thought this was a conversation but actually it was instruction all along? Very well, I'm done here then.

Explain (v): 1.1 Make (an idea, situation, or problem) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts or ideas:

You were very clear about your...well lack of clarity on the subject matter. So I just tried to offer an explanation since you asked. Don't be an ass about it like you usually are just because I got involved.

Saying that there are other things going on as well is very different from saying there is "absolutely no sex". Of course there are other things going on as well. And very wonderful things they are; I don't disagree with a word you say. N to K is a really beautiful impressive manga.
I don't think I understand, though, the distinction you draw between "erotic" and "sexual". Surely the first is some sort of subset of the second?

When I wrote "absolutely no sex", I meant that besides some groping, the characters never engage in, or even look about to start intercourse. They don't even masturbate. Kaoru is a porn addict, but he doesn't seem to use Nana as "okazu". Of course, the sexual desire is there, but it's channeled into the S&M "breathers".

The distinction between erotic and sexual is the same as between a girl in lingerie and a fully naked one. Eroticism is about imagination. Sex is about flesh. Doesn't mean one doesn't lead to the other, but N to K focuses on the emotions of the characters rather than on their carnal desires.

To go back to "The Real Her", it's not a serious take on S&M. It's used for comedy only.

If anyone has ever read "Sunstone", I think that's a pretty good take on BDSM. A bit further than what's being discussed here, but similar principles.

last edited at Aug 13, 2015 5:33AM

S&M is not about sex

checks the bdsm tag
all NSFW

lol okaaaaay.... sure ;)

S&M is not about sex

checks the bdsm tag
all NSFW

lol okaaaaay.... sure ;)

You realize that NSFW can be applied to nudity only, right?

S&M is not about sex

checks the bdsm tag
all NSFW

lol okaaaaay.... sure ;)

Correlation not causation

If anyone has ever read "Sunstone", I think that's a pretty good take on BDSM. A bit further than what's being discussed here, but similar principles.

It is indeed really good work, I love it, it's very well done

S&M is not about sex

checks the bdsm tag
all NSFW

lol okaaaaay.... sure ;)

You realize that NSFW can be applied to nudity only, right?

what is your point? A lot of them are also tagged lots of sex.

S&M is not about sex

checks the bdsm tag
all NSFW

lol okaaaaay.... sure ;)

You realize that NSFW can be applied to nudity only, right?

what is your point? A lot of them are also tagged lots of sex.

You really think tags on Dynasty are in any way reflective of the real world?

S&M is not about sex

checks the bdsm tag
all NSFW

lol okaaaaay.... sure ;)

You realize that NSFW can be applied to nudity only, right?

what is your point? A lot of them are also tagged lots of sex.

You really think tags on Dynasty are in any way reflective of the real world?

pretty much any form of bdsm involves sex. Why are you all acting like prudes? There is nothing wrong with it, it's just unconventional means of getting off.

funny how the addition of 2 letters can change the entire meaning of an conversation