Those penguins better know how to photosynthesize then XD.

Haha people are less kind to plants than cockroaches. Cockroaches would be the last organism standing XD

I guess I'm against just accepting the status quo just because it makes everyone else happy?

Haha then I guess the question is, if everyone is happy what is the problem? XDDD

I guess I'm against just accepting the status quo just because it makes everyone else happy?

Haha then I guess the question is, if everyone is happy what is the problem? XDDD

I realised that i said the wrong thing lol. I mean the illusion of happiness.

Because under that illusion people are suffering.

I'm not very articulate sorry.

last edited at Jul 23, 2017 11:54PM

I really want to play "We Happy Few" now.

last edited at Jul 23, 2017 11:43PM

Ever watched Hot Fuzz?

I have not. I had a brief look at the synopsis and I don't quite see the relevance. If you can elaborate that will be helpful.

Basically, the villagers are killing off anyone who they think will affect the good reputation of the village. You can think of the good reputation as the greater good or harmony. What would you do if you disagree with the majority?

To your point of if an idea is worth dying for and if people are prepared to do certain things. This is a fascinating topic. Why would some German risk their life to shelter Jews during WW2? Why would a random man stand in front of a moving tank during Tiananmen Square protest? No one is ever ready to do those things... My theory is they do it because the thought of the regret of staying out is far greater than the preceded consequence of their action. I guess if you don't think you will regret it, then stay out of it for a chance of longer life.

Basically, the villagers are killing off anyone who they think will affect the good reputation of the village. You can think of the good reputation as the greater good or harmony. What would you do if you disagree with the majority?

Doesn't it depend on the context? If by defending an idea, you go against everything that the idea stands for, is the idea still worth defending?

To your point of if an idea is worth dying for and if people are prepared to do certain things. This is a fascinating topic. Why would some German risk their life to shelter Jews during WW2? Why would a random man stand in front of a moving tank during Tiananmen Square protest? No one is ever ready to do those things... My theory is they do it because the thought of the regret of staying out is far greater than the preceded consequence of their action. I guess if you don't think you will regret it, then stay out of it for a chance of longer life.

When it all comes down to it, usually it is less about what you're fighting for and more about the things/people you care about. To a man in the front line, while he may die thinking he was protecting the freedom of his country (or whatever the war is for, the war he did not personally start), he may well also die protecting the guy next to him in the trench.

Hello Foxy Lady

Basing from these statements, one can't say with finality that the absence of suffering makes one happy, i.e., under reversed argument. In so doing, the illusion of happiness doesn't guarantee as well that people are suffering under baselining the definition of illusion, happiness and suffering.

That's a valid point. Not full does not = hungry XDDDD

You've lost me sorry.

last edited at Jul 24, 2017 2:39AM

I guess I'm against just accepting the status quo just because it makes everyone else happy?

Haha then I guess the question is, if everyone is happy what is the problem? XDDD

I realised that i said the wrong thing lol. I mean the illusion of happiness.

Because under that illusion people are suffering.

I'm not very articulate sorry.

Basing from these statements, one can't say with finality that the absence of suffering makes one happy, i.e., under reversed argument. In so doing, the illusion of happiness doesn't guarantee as well that people are suffering under baselining the definition of illusion, happiness and suffering.

This reminds me of a scene in Brave New World. Sometimes ignorance is a bliss.

Before Bernard could answer, the lift came to a standstill.
"Roof!" called a creaking voice.
The liftman was a small simian creature, dressed in the black tunic of an Epsilon-Minus Semi-Moron.
"Roof!"
He flung open the gates. The warm glory of afternoon sunlight made him start and blink his eyes. "Oh, roof!" he repeated in a voice of rapture. He was as though suddenly and joyfully awakened from a dark annihilating stupor. "Roof!"
He smiled up with a kind of doggily expectant adoration into the faces of his passengers. Talking and laughing together, they stepped out into the light. The liftman looked after them.
"Roof?" he said once more, questioningly.
Then a bell rang, and from the ceiling of the lift a loud speaker began, very softly and yet very imperiously, to issue its commands.
"Go down," it said, "go down. Floor Eighteen. Go down, go down. Floor Eighteen. Go down, go …"
The liftman slammed the gates, touched a button and instantly dropped back into the droning twilight of the well, the twilight of his own habitual stupor.

last edited at Jul 24, 2017 3:08AM

Hello Foxy Lady

Basing from these statements, one can't say with finality that the absence of suffering makes one happy, i.e., under reversed argument. In so doing, the illusion of happiness doesn't guarantee as well that people are suffering under baselining the definition of illusion, happiness and suffering.

That's a valid point. Not full does not = hungry XDDDD

What the hell are you even talking about Orange? Her point is not valid at all, it has nothing to do with what Esoteric tried to say.

Seriously, I'll be blunt, no offense Foxy Lady, but I honestly don't know if you really completely missed Esoteric point, or if on purpose you twisted their words and used rhetoric to try sound smart, like, really? They didn't talk about the literal feeling of happiness at all.

To make clear what I believe was the point Esoteric tried to make, by illusion of happiness they tried to argue that just because a place looks happy, in harmony, everything perfect and without problem, that doesn't mean that's true at all, actually quite the opposite, everywhere has some problems, only reason some places seem to be all nice and happy, is because there's a minority there who feels forced to suffer in silence, or are forced to, just so the "harmony" can continue, because after all, who cares about the minority when the majority is happy right?

A example that could explain what I believe Esoteric tried to say is bullying in schools, all schools have some kind of bullying, if you find any school at all that try to portray themselves free of any bullying, they're outright lying and just hiding it, society is the same.

I must say that I completely disagree with this "harmony" bullshit, people should never stay quiet and give up on their rights, change never happens naturally, because bigoted people who are against the minorities will do everything they can to not let it happen and keep the status quo.

And hlama, I disagree that ignorance is a bliss, if anything ignorance is the source of most if not all problems in the world, because through knowledge we have understanding, and with it acceptance, another cause of problems is lack of communication, people should talk and listen to each other more, countless of problems could be averted if they did that instead of making baseless assumptions.

With that said, guess I'll go back to the shadows. disappers into the darkness

last edited at Jul 24, 2017 4:12AM

Thiaguinho-sama

I remember having this argument with you on discord, anyways.. new liberals are just dictators level cute.

change doesn't need to happen by yelling and rebelling.. but slowly educating and planting the seed of the idea.. and this is the peaceful, harmonious approach that I prefere (or the bullshit as you call it).

secondly: some cultures are older than some countries XD .. to ask them to go follow anyone else just because you want them to be like the other country.. is upright insulting, aggressive and narrow minded.

you want your ideas be respected, respect other's beliefs and try slowly integrate yours to flow with them.. not to shock or force changing directions. I don't under any circumstances wish that this becomes an idea that someone dies for just to name a new hero and make a statues for them.. there are more important and precious things to die for.. this however, requires time, patience and respect.. if you go aggressive, you will face violence.

and I, LOVE my bullshit, aka"harmonious living".

What the hell are you even talking about Orange? Her point is not valid at all, it has nothing to do with what Esoteric tried to say.

Seriously, I'll be blunt, no offense Foxy Lady, but I honestly don't know if you really completely missed Esoteric point, or if on purpose you twisted their words and used rhetoric to try sound smart, like, really? They didn't talk about the literal feeling of happiness at all.

The point was not missed. It was in fact never discussed. Her comment was not on the content but on the technicality of the meaning of the sentence. And in this context, her comment is valid. If you "do not suffer", it does not automatically mean you are "happy". In a similar vein, being "not poor" does not make you a "rich" person.

last edited at Jul 24, 2017 4:18AM

Thiaguinho-sama, take a deep breathe, no need to get angry lol.

There are some truth to what Foxy said. Illusion of harmony, what is illusion to you and me may be the truth to others. In the context of the movie Esoteric cited, the villagers believe in that "illusions" which is their version of "the right thing". It is like me telling Christian Jesus is not real... you see my point?

If you think you are happy, you don't necessarily suffer. People can't crave what they do not know existed, so ignorance is a bliss to them.

last edited at Jul 24, 2017 4:31AM

change doesn't need to happen by yelling and rebelling.. but slowly educating and planting the seed of the idea.. and this is the peaceful, harmonious approach that I prefere (or the bullshit as you call it).

you want your ideas be respected, respect other's beliefs and try slowly integrate yours to flow with them.. not to shock or force changing directions. I don't under any circumstances wish that this becomes an idea that someone dies for just to name a new hero and make a statues for them.. there are more important and precious things to die for.. this however, requires time, patience and respect.. if you go aggressive, you will face violence.

Indeed. We don't teach a child the concept of non-violence by beating him into submission lol. We must first walk the talk.

Orange

Indeed. We don't teach a child the concept of non-violence by beating him into submission lol. We must first walk the talk.

you are my Ghandi π_π

No, I don't take offense. So, don't worry about it. My name is just "Foxy lady".. not an "esoteric"...

Lol and I'm just a lowly fruit....not even GRAPES..you know...XDDDDDDDDD ahahahaha!

Nora89

change doesn't need to happen by yelling and rebelling.. but slowly educating and planting the seed of the idea.. and this is the peaceful, harmonious approach that I prefere (or the bullshit as you call it).

Except that sometimes that is the only way to make change happens, or what, you really think that when a good amount of people are against a minority, they will let someone teach their children something they're against? Unfortunately sometimes when you try to be peaceful, people who are against what you say, especially people who have power, will do all they can to shut you up, unfortunately in some cases rebelling and protests are the only option.

secondly: some cultures are older than some countries XD .. to ask them to go follow anyone else just because you want them to be like the other country.. is upright insulting, aggressive and narrow minded.

No, insulting is how some people are treated because of their gender, skin color, or belief, and so on, being a culture is not a excuse to make anything accceptable, and you're completely ignoring the point that change is not something that happens overnight, change is something gradual that takes time, and to make something clear, it's not about make them like other coutries, but to give every human being the rights their deserve.

you want your ideas be respected, respect other's beliefs and try slowly integrate yours to flow with them.. not to shock or force changing directions. I don't under any circumstances wish that this becomes an idea that someone dies for just to name a new hero and make a statues for them.. there are more important and precious things to die for.. this however, requires time, patience and respect.. if you go aggressive, you will face violence.

Respect is a two way road, they don't respect our beliefs either, and no, I won't respect a belief where woman need to be subjugated. or where gays can be killed for what they are, or any other bullshit like that, sometimes shock is the only way to start change, and people don't die so they can be a hero and get a statue, people sometime dies because for them, not doing anything against what they believe is just plain wrong, is worse than doing nothing, and for what is right they're capable of dying if necessary, and don't forget one thing, yes life is too precious to throw away, but those people didn't commit suicide, they were literally murdered by the bigoted people who prefer the status quo where a minority might suffer, sometimes patience and respect don't work.

and I, LOVE my bullshit, aka"harmonious living".

True, you love your "harmonious living", but guess what? Just because you're happy with how things are, there will be countless of gay people who will completely hate how things are right now, don't ignore that a lot of people are not happy with this false harmony.

Orange

The point was not missed. It was in fact never discussed. Her comment was not on the content but on the technicality of the meaning of the sentence. And in this context, her comment is valid. If you "do not suffer", it does not automatically mean you are "happy". In a similar vein, being "not poor" does not make you a "rich" person.

True, sometimes if people are not suffering, it doesn't automatically mean they're happy, but that completely ignores the argument Esoteric tried to make, a country might not have gay marriage, some will not suffer because of that, but others will, you can't generalize that, just because some are not suffering that doesn't mean there's not others who aren't, someone will always suffer when their rights are denied.

hlama

Thiaguinho-sama, take a deep breathe, no need to get angry lol.

There are some truth to what Foxy said. Illusion of harmony, what is illusion to you and me may be the truth to others. In the context of the movie Esoteric cited, the villagers believe in that "illusions" which is their version of "the right thing". It is like me telling Christian Jesus is not real... you see my point?

If you think you are happy, you don't necessarily suffer. People can't crave what they do not know existed, so ignorance is a bliss to them.

But the villagers believing that is right won't make it right, and your point is invalid, because we're not talking about Jesus, religion is about faith, about believing in something you can't prove, rights are fact.

It's true that people can't crave something if they don't know that exist, but that is just because they don't know better, they don't know about the choices and the possibilities they could have, also, just because they don't know about some things, that doesn't mean they will be automaticaly happy either, there will always be a reason for suffering and sadness, and having knowledge can help overcome them more easily.

Foxy lady

However, Thiaguinho-sama, in all your explanation, I encourage you to reread your argument. I was smiling because you put in details my argument which is just technical level. Thank you for backing me up unknowingly. XD

Nah, I won't reread anything because I know very well about what I said, I don't care about technical level, I care about the whole picture and facts, nothing anyone say will change my belief that people should fight for their rights instead of just accept things how they are.

Orange

Indeed. We don't teach a child the concept of non-violence by beating him into submission lol. We must first walk the talk.

Except for the fact we're not talking about children, but society as a whole, and on it, it's adults who will try to stop minorities from having their rights, and they're capable of using anything they can to stop that change.

Also, no I'm not mad lol, sorry if I sounded like that, I tried to choose my words, but sometimes it end up not sounding as good as I wanted... And hope I didn't forget to reply anything lol

last edited at Jul 24, 2017 5:02AM

Except for the fact we're not talking about children

lol an analogy is just that...an analogy...nothing more..nothing less. Not everything has to be read so literally...

change doesn't need to happen by yelling and rebelling.. but slowly educating and planting the seed of the idea.. and this is the peaceful, harmonious approach that I prefer (or the bullshit as you call it).

This is rather like an essay writing class. "The pen is mightier than the sword". Discuss. LOL

you really think that when a good amount of people are against a minority, they will let someone teach their children something they're against? Unfortunately sometimes when you try to be peaceful, people who are against what you say, especially people who have power, will do all they can to shut you up, unfortunately in some cases rebelling and protests are the only option.

you think like that because you are impatient, you want to wake up and find everyone conforming to what you believe to be right. So in your logic, a rebellion will make those people raise their children differently ?

No, insulting is how some people are treated because of their gender, skin color, or belief, and so on, being a culture is not a excuse to make anything acceptable,

ok honey, you are mixing things up.. this is not slavery nor racism.

but to give every human being the rights their deserve.

I did mention that no one stopped me from indulging in my forbidden fruit.. they are not ready to know about it! nor do I need to make it on national TV to feel liberated. So, on the level of Human rights, no one has stopped it.. you want them to like it ? well.. you think of peaceful approach as long as it's feasible. Being hasty and aggressive is selfish and pure idiocy.

Respect is a two way road, they don't respect our beliefs either, and no, I won't respect a belief where women need to be subjugated.

hahahahahhaha.. you know what's funny, women are still subjugated but under another form.. you know why? because all forced changes made difference in appearance not in the essence of the problem.
This is what I meant by forcing your idea, you only make a fake change.

nothing anyone will say will change my belief that people should fight for their rights instead of just accept things how they are.

if this is your approach in life.. that even in argument you can't be persuaded, of course violence and rebelling is the thing you find practical.

, a country might not have gay marriage, some will not suffer because of that, but others will, you can't generalize that, just because some are not suffering that doesn't mean there's not others who aren't, someone will always suffer when their rights are denied.

in all the time that I've been gay for.. I can't understand how some gays suffer because they can't get married. what's up with mimicking hetrosexuals. Oh, maybe the tax cuts or something !
so dramatic even for me.

Thiaguinho-sama, you missed my point. I never said the villagers' action was right, I said it was "their version of the right thing". When people are conditioned into believing something is right, it is very hard to reason against it. Why is the religion example relevant? Because I can give Christian hundreds of proofs to discredit the Bible, but they won't budge. Rights are beliefs, not facts. Like the freedom to bear arm is an American belief, it is not a fact.

I don't know about the second point. I can tell you a 5 years old know a lot less than me, but he seems care free and happier. Is his happiness false? I am an advocate for knowledge, but I also think that knowing more does not necessarily make you happy, it can work the opposite.

last edited at Jul 24, 2017 5:43AM

nothing anyone will say will change my belief that people should fight for their rights instead of just accept things how they are.

if this is your approach in life.. that even in argument you can't be persuaded, of course violence and rebelling is the thing you find practical.

There's also a Gandhi in you XDDDDD

Nora89

you think like that because you are impatient, you want to wake up and find everyone conforming to what you believe to be right. So in your logic, a rebellion will make those people raise their children differently ?

No, quite the opposite, I'm very patient, I know changes will never come overnight, and people will not automatically agree with what I believe, rights are something that can and are made into law, and people don't need to accept someone is gay, but they can respect they're different even if they raise their children to think that is wrong.

ok honey, you are mixing things up.. this is not slavery nor racism.

No, I didn't mix things up, slavery and racism are the same thing, or what, you think that slaves didn't fight for their rights? Or that black people didn't fight for them either? They didn't get their rights one day because white people was feeling nice, those things are the same.

I did mention that no one stopped me from indulging in my forbidden fruit.. they are not ready to know about it! nor do I need to make it on national TV to feel liberated. So, on the level of Human rights, no one has stopped it.. you want them to like it ? well.. you think of peaceful approach as long as it's feasible. Being hasty and aggressive is selfish and pure idiocy.

Just because you're fine with hiding it, that doesn't mean everyone is, some people want to be free, to be able to kiss their partner in public without end up in jail or being attacked, people don't need to understand and accept you, but they should respect, even if a law is necessary for making them not try anything against the minority, selfish is to ignore the countless people who want change just because you're fine with the status quo.

hahahahahhaha.. you know what's funny, women are still subjugated but under another form.. you know why? because all forced changes made difference in appearance not in the essence of the problem.
This is what I meant by forcing your idea, you only make a fake change.

Actually they made difference in the problem, a few decades earlier woman couldn't vote, couldn't have a job, and so on.

There's no fake change, there's imperfect changes, yes some woman still suffer some form of subjulgation, but guess what? Things in the past were worse, the fight for equality is something that will not end any time soon, just because for you those changes seems meaningless, won't change that for countless womans it made a huge difference, we wouldn't be here if people didn't fight for their rights in the past.

if this is your approach in life.. that even in argument you can't be persuaded, of course violence and rebelling is the thing you find practical.

Now you're just making assumptions, I never said violence and rebelling is the only way, you can make changes with peaceful ways a lot of times with time, but in some cases that won't work, don't talk as if peaceful actions are absolute, cause they're not, sometimes reellion and protest is necessary, and at last resort even violence.

in all the time that I've been gay for.. I can't understand how some gays suffer because they can't get married. what's up with mimicking hetrosexuals. Oh, maybe the tax cuts or something !
so dramatic even for me.

Sorry, but "mimicking heterosexuals"? That is offensive because you talk as if gays are a different creature, gays are not different from heterosexual people, we're exactly the same, and we deserve the same rights, that's the whole point.

hlama

Thiaguinho-sama, you missed my point. I need never said the villagers' action was right, I said it was "their version of the right thing". When people are conditioned into believing something is right, it is very hard to reason against it. Why is the religion example relevant? Because I can give Christian hundreds of proofs to discredit the Bible, but they won't budge. Rights are beliefs, not facts. Like the freedom to bear arm is an American belief, it is not a fact.

I know it's hard to reason with people who has being conditioned to believe in something, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try, as for the Christians, that is not relevant, you can't give proof the Bible is wrong, because the Bible is about faith, not about prooving if it's true or not, also, rights are not a belief, they're fact, freedom to bear arm is not the same as deny someone marriage or a service because they're gay or black, also, freedom to bear arm is a right, it's outright in the constitution, people was free to have a weapon since the beginning of humanity, and there's no need for that to change, because people have the right to defend themselves, and sometimes having a weapon is the only way to do so.

I don't know about the second point. I can tell you a 5 years old know a lot less than me, but he seems care free and happier. Is his happiness false? I am an advocate for knowledge, but I also think that knowing more does not necessarily make you happy, it can work the opposite.

Yeah it's true a 5 years old are happy without knowing anything, but they don't need to know anything, they're children, all they need to do is live their childhood and be happy, also, not knowing is not the same as believing in something that is false, they don't know anything, but they're free to learn and think for themselves, also, it's true that knowledge won't necessarely make you happy, and knowing less you can be happier, but the only reason people who have knowledge can be less happy, is because they see how bad the world is, which is exactly why change is necessary, it's better to know, maybe be kind of unhappy, but be able to make the world better, than never know anything and things continue bad.

last edited at Jul 24, 2017 5:53AM

I would love to go into another 3 pages of discussion.. anyways, I truly realised we come from two different worlds. whatever floats your boat.

for me ?
nah, I just sit here.. write a nice article in some blog, a person or two would read it.. I still get girls.. and the state doesn't need to give me an official fancy paper saying that I'm exclusive with this person and our breakup would be legally nastier XDDD. argghh

I wish Martin can mix me a cocktail at 12:00 p.m

Thiaguinho-sama, you had made an assumption that your perspective is the fact. I don't think I can reason you out of it. All I can say is it is a dangerous thing to do, and don't be a villager. Lol.

last edited at Jul 24, 2017 6:03AM