I'm unclear what counts as "modern" here, but I find both parts of this pretty surprising. Besides the example I gave that you actually quote, I can think of a half-dozen yuri tsunderes off the top of my head, not even taking short comedy series into account, and most of those characters do eventually come clean about their feelings.

A modern tsundere is just hot and cold by their very nature, and will get shy and hostile no matter how long they've been with their love interest... think of Taiga Aisaka or Reo Kawamura. A classic tsundere is typically hostile because of trauma or something along those lines, and once that is resolved or addressed mellows out and becomes much more dere all around.

I don't follow many of those series and others I just sort of disagree with... Claire Francois is more of an ojou type than a tsundere for example... she's Luviagelita Edelfelt, not Tohsaka. I never said they were nonexistent, either, just that there weren't many that seemed noteworthy or memorable in yuri works.

In the case of tsunderes as central characters, it's encoded in the character type that they're going to change, and almost certainly for the better. With AnoKiss, readers waited almost 5 years to get to the point in the story that we all knew was coming from the first few chapters, and what was a series of often painful emotional struggles for Shiramine were delightful to read because we were shown all along how thoroughly she was hooked on Kurosawa.

Modern tsundere don't really change, only the classic tsundere do. Though... I can't think of many noteworthy tsundere in yuri... off the top of my head I probably know more yandere.

I'm not a fan of yuri love triangles, or I haven't seen many that were particularly well executed. Usually its another mechanism to drag out the plot like "but we're both girls!"

I'm really not a fan of premises that start with blackmail, though with some exceptions.

More sexy time would be nice I guess but I really like the current format; reminds me of something like Candy Boy. I really like the aspect of characters just kind of going through life in a relationship. I'm glad to see Citrus come off hiatus finally, regardless.

How involved is Nakatani in the Sayaka spin off? I thought she was fairly hands off with it, at least initially.

The series sort of lost me when it decided to fully spin off Sayaka. Not just that, but the more "normal" they became Yuu and Touko became sort of difficult to relate to. Still a fun ride overall, and a cute ending, but a bit disappointing in the last couple volumes.

Where exactly did you pull that hoot from? The LN? The manga has in no way portrayed Sayaka as totally dependant on Touko or being Touko's "platonic wife" lol

I didn't say "dependent". And maybe "image" would have been a better word choice. To put it another way she's a (stage 5) clinger. Its something I started to pick up on in the manga that I think the LN affirms (or expands on).

Like, she purposely kept her distance and was fine never confessing or bothering Touko, just keeping up the friendship. There is no real indicator right now to think she couldn't go back to being in that friend role, although naturally their perception of each other would change.

That's called the friend zone.

In the same way Yuu and Touko's relationship has been built on sand to this point so have Sayaka and Touko. They could stay friends on some level but they are going to have to start over to some extent and since you expect a myopic focus on Touko and Yuu there's just no time for that. It would be easier to have Sayaka salvage her dignity and walk away or have them hook up and fizzle out. Both of which could service the plot you want and the spinoff.

Sayaka deserves better.

I mean... your theories up til now treat her with all the elegance of roadkill. Now I'm curious to know what your "bad end" looks like.

edit: and yes to literally everything in @herenowforever's post.

last edited at Jan 9, 2019 11:05AM

Sayaka is not broken like them and was prepared for the consequences, where Yuu only thought she was.

...if you say so.

The problem with Sayaka that I think you're not seeing is that her identity revolves so much around being Touko's perfect platonic wife that a rejection from Touko is going to hit her a thousand times harder than it hit Yuu. For the first time in a long time she's going to have to be someone else.

How so? It's easy to just randomly make a claim like that, but what exactly would losing Sayaka's friendship accomplish? An even greater confirmation for Touko that being loved and not living up to expectations has terrible consequences. The exact opposite of what she needs to evolve.

I mean... you all keep talking about rock bottom or "the place where all is lost" and I'm kind of giving it to you on a platter here. And I've kept Sayaka as the "obstacle" too... kind of.

Though part of the reason I like the idea of a Sayaka Touko rebound is because I think it could give them both a soft landing.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 4:46PM

Touko needs her as a friend and support, so if she truly did this, it would be out of spite.

Were you this critical of Yuu for not being able to go right back to being friends with Touko in chapter 35?

My prediction is more that Touko losing her "friend and support" in the fallout from the confession (or perhaps short lived relationship) is going to be the catalyst for change that leads Touko back to Yuu. Take it or leave it.

So if she just abandoned Touko out of spite, is that really going along with her characterisation? No. It doesn't.

Where are you even getting "spite" from?

So you are saying the narrative almost entirely focused on Yuu and Touko's relationship and finally fixing their emotional issues to come together, does not support that Sayaka who is in the way of that result, is an obstacle?

How is the person who guided Yuu towards Touko's sister and who backed Yuu up on changing the play "in the way"? If anything she's helped them towards fixing their emotional issues, and the most assertive thing she's done up until now is tell Yuu that she's interested in Touko. And maybe according to genre formula #6AB3 Sayaka should stick around and help Touko and Yuu even more, but I'm pretty sure that's off the table.

At the end of the day what you want me to agree with just sounds like bad storytelling that won't appeal to anyone but fans of Yuu who want somebody to dunk on. Call it shipping, call it whatever, but I can't do it. I'd be incredibly disappointed in Nakatani if it goes that way.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 11:53AM

Will she act like a hurt lioness and say "No!"? Yeah right.

I... you're arguing against characterization here in favor of headcanon, I don't really have a response. Ganbatte! I guess.

Aside from the fact that we have been repeatedly telling you that she is not a villain, the point is that narratively speaking she is an obstacle. She is not actively an obstacle from the characters' point of view. Touko doesnt see her as an obstacle, so where did that ridiculous notion come from?

Have you actually considered the characters are right here and you guys are not? I feel like you're imposing cliche genre expectations here and the story in no way is backing you up. Its why I said a few posts ago that Heavensrun (at least) just seems to want Citrus.

And its not about the rejection as much as the repercussions.

That's a reach alright. There is no reason why their friendship would end here. Sayaka has prepared herself for both outcomes already and has given no hint to staking her friendship on this. If there is a rift, it would be entirely coming from Touko, who clearly values Sayaka's friendship.

If you haven't already I would say to check the LN (or read it if you know moonspeak) synopsis; I think there's a pretty well established precedent. On top of that she's built her life around being comfortably in Touko's friend zone, so things have to change between her and Touko no matter what. Where they were inseparable there's going to be distance... I've already said that I think her stepping away from Student Council is likely.

I have no idea what you are even insinuating here. What exactly does this have to do with whether she is an obstacle or not? Whether there is plot or not? Whether this makes sense for the narrative or not? Yes, there will be emotional turmoil, no matter what Touko's reply will be. Is that bad? Is that wrong?

The more you frame her as an obstacle or villain or whatever the less Touko needs to give a shit (proportionately) about rejecting her. That's the crux of that scenario. It won't really land with someone as sympathetic as Sayaka. Its more likely to make Touko look like an asshole.

@strayalive
OOF!

Well, that's what I get for trying to reach out and find common ground with a shipper.

This is not an obstacle that needs to be crushed, it's one that simply happens to be there as a stepping stone towards the end goal. Sad for Sayaka, but just narratively sound.

Except its not because as I've already said rejecting the confession will probably be the end of Touko and Sayaka's friendship. And you guys are either oblivious to the fact that there essentially has to be some fallout from Sayaka's confession (because she's not a fucking villain) or want that impact hand waved. I don't get it.

last edited at Jan 8, 2019 9:18AM

YagaKimi has a strong guided focused plot. Even if it were a slice-of-life it would be one with an actual plot. Those do exist. After all an excerpt of a life can also be a story in itself.

YagaKimi is obviously a psychological drama though, so calling it a SoL is very much missing the point.

I never said it didn't have a plot. But it hasn't been conflict driven for 37 chapters now and Sayaka has been presented as nothing but sympathetic, so to portray her as that which must be overcome by our "heroes" now just sounds like brainless shipping to me rather than sincere story analysis. And I'm pretty sure Blastaar is just hoping to bait me at this point so there's that too.

As I see it the series has been a slow, character driven (and definitely psychological) burn. And I honestly expect it to stay a slow, character driven burn until the end. Which is why I call it a slice of life. And I think people who are looking for some sort of grand drama over the next few chapters is pretty much setting themselves up for disappointment but... whatever.

If I'm conflating you and Heavensrun its because you've made a point of defending a number of their posts so I kind of have to assume you agree.

The blithe assumption that this series is a “slice of life” when it displays none of the well-established elements that characterize the slice of life genre made me question that even more.

I have no clue what you're talking about, but... from Wikipedia:

Slice of life describes the depiction of mundane experiences in art and entertainment.[1] In theater it refers to naturalism, while in literary parlance it is a narrative technique in which a seemingly arbitrary sequence of events in a character's life is presented, often lacking plot development, conflict and exposition, and often having an open ending.

If you want to call it trolling so be it, but you guys are trying to sell me on a conflict involving Sayaka that IMO doesn't exist.

So no, my attention to the remarkably methodical and fully developed story structure of YagaKimi absolutely does not lead me to expect something like Citrus.

I... didn't really know what else to say to the paragraph comparing Sayaka to Darth Vader.

In fact, I would wager to say there's evidence in the chapter that suggests Touko was oblivious, or at least in denial, up until the moment of truth. When she helps Sayaka with the love charm....I mean her behavior in that scene is a little...irresponsible? If she knows or strongly suspects that she's the subject of Sayaka's feelings. She almost seems amused that Sayaka's even interested in something like that, and it's definitely inconsistent with the "Don't do it" that comes at confession time.

I mean... her entire relationship with Yuu is irresponsible, so that's not exactly a stretch. And this is kind of a loaded topic in my experience because I think people want to believe she's oblivious, and with Yuu I think she is, but I don't think she's toying with Sayaka or something like that either. I guess in simplest terms I think she's convinced the genie will stay in the bottle when it comes to Sayaka's feelings.

It's worth mentioning that she didn't even really mean to exploit Yuu.

I don't actually think she did. But people seem to think I'm accusing Touko of being exploitative when I say she knew about Sayaka so I figured I'd run with it. And SayaYuu is sort of growing on me.

Slice of life stories still have structure. In fact, Slice of life stories tend to be way more formulaic and episodic about it.

I mean technically a sitcom or CGDCT is a slice of life but that's not what I'm referring to at all. I mean "slice of life" in much more of a 'Western' sense for lack of a better way to put it.

Is Macross Delta really different or something? The other series all had really definite narrative arcs!

I brought it up for its triangles, not its narratives. Most the series had pretty meaty triangles, but Delta actually had a rival with 0 chance I think you would have appreciated.

As to why Touko “keeps Sayaka around,” it’s because they’re, you know, friends.

Yeah but... Sakaya is almost definitely not going to be able to stay friends with Touko if/when she gets rejected and I think its pretty likely she'll bail on Student Council too.

Hurrah! The witch is dead! But... will Touko have lingering thoughts of Sayaka when she's gone? Hmmm.

Touko needing some time to deal with the emotional fallout of losing Sayaka (right after Yuu) is another reason I don't think a grand romantic gesture from her makes sense. I could see her exit sparking something like a slow "picking up the pieces" phase where Touko and Yuu begin to start over though.

Touko is still in love with Yuu, and showed no such interest in Sayaka. Never mind that accepting Sayaka's confession would make no sense, it would also not be fair towards Sayaka herself.

Way back in the volume 2 (the one where Sayaka didn't show up at all or something) side chapter there was a flashback to their first year where Touko asks for Sayaka's advice on a confession from a girl, in which Touko says she... might be ok with dating a girl, but the bigger issue was obviously that she didn't want to date anybody.

After 37 and the likelihood that Touko has known for some time about Sayaka's interest I have a lot of questions up to and including that encounter. Like... was that Touko's making a gentle attempt at letting Sayaka down? Why did she keep Sayaka around? Did Sayaka's interest maybe spark something in Touko that Yuu was the beneficiary of? There's a bit of a gap there between "maybe" and Yuu...

You could also make the case that Touko is just a really, really horrible awful person if she knew and sort of exploited Sayaka on top of exploiting Yuu. But I really don't think its that simple. Although... I suppose comforting each other here is like opening the Panama canal to a SayakaYuu endgame... now that I type it I think I might actually be really into it...

Anyway.

The only question is whether we're at the bottom yet.

Well, I sincerely doubt Sayaka is going to be willing to continue to be friends with Touko after being rejected, especially given what I've seen about the LN.

Sorry, not sorry.

Look, like I wrote yesterday, you're beating me over the head with "story structure" to what I see as a character driven slice of life. So, to me you're expecting characters to act in unnatural ways to service a plot or story structure that doesn't exist in the way you're claiming it does. On top of that you're expecting Citrus and I'm expecting Macross. Actually that analogy should also lead to SayaYuu... but... no... can't...

I've said from the beginning that I do still think the series will end with Touko and Yuu, BTW.

last edited at Jan 7, 2019 12:34PM

Like I said, I’m coming to fucking hate terms like “OTP” and “shipping” and all that other crap. I have been attempting, at any rate, to understand the plot and genre signals that the story has been sending and to follow the logic of the character development as it has been presented so far.

Maybe its not really "shipping" but I think the biggest thing for me is that you, Heavensrun, and others think there's actually a plot and I think its a slice of life. Obviously not in a "cute girls doing cute things" way, but definitely a story where the characters and their interactions drive the plot, and without a concrete structure to adhere to. In that sense even if its just an interlude Touko and Sayaka completely make sense to me, where you seem to think the story would completely be off the rails at that point.

I guess we'll see what happens going forward... but obviously I like my way better.

This. Plus the fact loving someone does not entitle that person to anything. Not a single one of them "deserves" something in this situation, that entire question is basically nonsensical. If Touko is not into Sayaka, and I am struggling to remember what would indicate otherwise, then that is that.

You're not wrong. But I framed it that way in part because my first response in this conversation was in regarding the idea that it would be distasteful for Touko to accept Sayaka's confession after rejecting Yuu. Obviously Sayaka isn't owed anything, but neither is Yuu. Should Touko accept Sayaka's confession it has nothing to do with Yuu.

Why “I want to be with Yuu” is not a potential, and indeed the most likely, answer to that question I do not understand.

I guess the short answer is that even if that is what she wants its not like things can go back to how they were; in a lot of ways they're going to have to start over. And yeah, she's changing, but Yuu's confession sort of implicitly asked her to change faster, in a way I really don't think she's capable of right now. So I'm not against that outcome, I just think racing towards it (especially in one or two chapters as people are suggesting) would feel contrived.

What are you even talking about? I never said there are no stakes, I said that Sayaka winning in the end is unlikely because it doesn't fit the narrative. There are still stakes -within- the narrative, the end result just isn't difficult to predict, because the author has spent five full volumes so far setting it up.

You said Sayaka was an "obstacle" and I'm still wondering how. For as long as your post was I'm impressed you evaded the one simple question I asked. If you're saying there's basically no chance between them... what's the point? And where are the stakes?

Sayaka's role in -this- story is a tragic one. She doesn't get the girl. There's somebody like that in -most- romances, I don't know why you seem so incredulous about this.

I just fundamentally disagree with you. I don't get why you seem to be taking it so badly.

You're writing pointless paragraph after pointless paragraph telling me I don't understand the story and so on yet you're defending your interpretation a tragic character (who has 2 spines, 3 if we get to chapter 9) who you're saying is tragic... pretty much just for the sake of being tragic. To me that's an example of bad writing, not a slow buildup into a triangle. If Sayaka's story had been buttoned up 2 or 3 volumes ago I'd probably agree with you. Where we are now, not so much.

What I will give you is that an author can run the risk of losing the audience who wants their ship to sail. But as I see it there's no clear path from Touko to Yuu either right now, or at least not one that doesn't involve Touko making a grand romantic gesture or acting almost completely out of character.

The dilemma starting now would be a terrible structural mistake. What you are describing is a complete narrative flip 6 volumes into what is probably an 8 volume series, according to hints that have been dropped by the author.

You don't read/watch many triangles do you...

last edited at Jan 6, 2019 9:05AM

This isn't optimism, this is an objective assessment of the structure of the story. Yes, but a well crafted love triangle story puts emphasis on the dillemma.

But... the "dilemma" could just as easily start now, particularly with Touko and Yuu broken up. It makes Sayaka look better for holding back until they were no longer an item, too.

I think people are getting sidetracked by how smooth Sayaka's confession was, which, to be fair, is the point. And that's the core of it. Sayaka's confession has come up as an obstacle in the larger narrative. It's supposed to make us apprehensive about what Touko will do.

...an "obstacle" how? Or for who? You're making the point that there are stakes but at the same time no stakes. Its kind of confusing.

What exactly do you (and others) see coming out of Sayaka's story? Because there have been volumes of build up to this confession, and now to have her exit stage left and not show up again until the spinoff seems like bad form. And expecting her to have a role in helping Touko and Yuu get back together is probably worse. I don't need a cuckquean Sayaka in my life. Set the girl free or something.

The central question of the series has been described by the author as an answer to the question "What is love?" Not an exploration of different kinds of love, but a single response to the question. ...... This series is primarily about two characters trying to figure out what love means to -them- in the context of their central relationship. That's how it's clearly structured.

Except Sayaka's existence in the story basically contradicts that. You're not even asking the question if you're intent on skirting around her or dismissing her outright.

Let me get you started -- Which "love" is more true; Touko's heart on her sleeve but "don't love me back" towards Yuu, Yuu's self(ish(less)) wanting (to help) Touko to change, or Sayaka's loving "everything" about Touko from afar while she waits? Do all of them or does any of them deserve something in this situation?

In this case, the author has clearly been telling one story, and shows no real signs of suddenly swerving to tell a different one, especially one that makes a complete thematic hash of everything that has gone before.

I guess... what do you feel the story is about thematically? Because I may be a bit sarcastic but I'm not expecting an asspull.

Touko ending up with Sayaka runs contrary to basically all of the manga's built up structure and themes so far. If Nakatani-sensei wanted this to be about Touko and Sayaka ending up together, she could have started the story with their meeting and brought Yuu in as a side rival character. If she wanted it to be a love triangle with an open question at the end, she could have spent the first few issues setting up the triangle, but she didn't. She set up Touko x Yuu and -then- introduced Sayaka as a rival side character with an unrequited love.

I appreciate your optimism as far as your preferred pairing but there's not really a hard and fast rule to how a triangle has to either begin or play out. That's why they're not for the faint of heart, especially when they're well crafted.

My loose understanding was that YagaKimi was an exploration of different kinds of love which I think demands Sayaka gets a fair shake. I also sort of want to see Yuu evolve because I think she needs to be something more as a character than simply the catalyst for Touko to "change". And for the record, I do still expect a Yuu X Touko ending. Just not Touko performing a grand romantic gesture or something like that anytime soon.

In the unlikely event that Touko’s response to Sayaka’s confession would be, “Hey, I’m having fun trying a bunch of new things, like the acting class and expressing my emotions to my friends, so why not give the dating scene a whirl with my BFF, Sayaka?”, that really would be a fundamental change in her character, one not organic to the themes and plot dynamics as they have developed methodically and at length in the series so far.

The only consistent motivation for Touko to enter a romantic relationship with Sayaka would be for Touko to have accepted a fundamental change in her own attitude toward love (this part is entirely possible and indeed what the whole series has been building toward) AND to discover that her true emotional bond is with Sayaka, not with Yuu.

None of that really matters when it comes to a rebound. But after 37 it seems pretty likely that Touko very much knew Sayaka was harboring feelings for her for some time now, so if Touko does feel anything for Sayaka it'll come back to that.

The further fact is that to accept Sayaka’s feelings after rejecting Yuu’s sheds a extremely negative light on her entire previous relationship with Yuu, the inherently problematic terms of which (“let me love you, but don’t fall in love with me”) were mitigated only by the apparent sincerity of Touko’s affection for Yuu.

It could actually be kind of healthy if it means she's moved on from aromantic pixie dream girls as a type.

I get that a lot of people take issue with Touko's terms or limits or what have you but... in practice Yuu's confession moved the goalpost from "I'll wait for you to change little by little" to "I want you to change all at once". She also rebuffed Touko with a confession specifically when Touko was looking for an affirmation of the status quo. I'm pretty sure Yuu wasn't oblivious to what she was asking either. In that sense I think its actually a pretty long road for Touko back to Yuu.

As far as Sayaka in general though... I'm all for side story and prequels and stuff like that but Sayaka's story needs to be told in the manga.

last edited at Jan 5, 2019 4:54PM

But if it is as you say, why should she set up limits? And if Touko is self aware, she would not want to become her sister. She is aware of own weakness, or vulnerability, but not of herself.
Reason for it is fear of losing someone dear (on which she has no control), so her all choices are connected with things which she can control, or set up limits. That's her comfort zone.

She knows she didn't like who she was before. But that's tangential, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that she's "controlling" because as far as anyone else is concerned she's mainly focused on keeping up her "perfect" act to the point of hurting herself and probably further.

And... if you don't want to call it self-awareness I guess that's your prerogative but Touko can be up front about her limits because I'm pretty sure she knows her limits. Maybe its easier to be sympathetic to Yuu here, but in that sense I don't think she was boxing in Yuu or telling her what to be to her as much as she was telling Yuu what she can't be. And part of my point is that now Yuu has pretty much asked her to be something that she can't be.

That's not to fault Yuu but its easy to be dismissive of or critical of Touko right now and I think that's misguided.

Actually, her opening up to Yuu is surprising, but still, she limited their relationship setting up conditions which are in her comfort zone. Outside of it, she is letting go.

I think that's backwards... Touko is actually pretty self aware, and I think she really believed Yuu "fit" in her comfort zone.

To a point I don't disagree with the play meta but in more of an internal sense... and right now Touko is in a position where she would have to be someone else to "fit" with Yuu 2.0.