Still, I think we made progress. I mean, Koguma is unusually assertive and Hino absolutely knows what camp she's in now.
Also, I've rarely seen a plan to wriggle out of an intimate situation backfire so spectacularly.

Exactly. No fun allowed. Especially in Ecchi.

/s

@Nevri
More context! Thanks for setting that straight. Now that you mention it, I think I vaguely remember hearing that side of the story before, it apparently didn't stick.

To be fair, if the source is terrible, starting from scratch and basically rewriting everything can yield better results, although I've only seen this work out properly if the target is supposed to be a comedy and not supposed to be representative of the source anymore. Think of the many, many hilarious abridged versions, or the English dub of Ghost Stories. Because of how terrible the source needs to be and how lucid the localization staff must be to not only acknowledge that fact, but also make the call that it's not worth it, it's no wonder that I can't think of more examples. (*when it comes to official translations - abridged versions have the luxury that it's not their job to provide a "true to source" version from the start.)

last edited at Nov 8, 2020 4:14PM

Arguably to REALLY localize something you'd convert mentions of okonomiyaki and other street food to "hot dogs". Which I would consider a step or three too far.

Then there's the whole honorifics thing. At some point the "native Japanese experience" cannot be translated into modern American English because that experience doesn't exist. So I really like translations that keep the honorifics and if necessary include a guide to what they mean.

If by "really" you mean "to the extreme", then indeed, removing any traces of foreign cultures would be part of it. There are few contexts where such radical departures are appreciated, however. Realistically, localization is always the attempt to find the right balance. Making jelly-filled doughnuts out of onigiri wouldn't really fly anymore, and rice balls probably wouldn't be as foreign anymore as they were in the '90s. The best intentions and stuff...

For radical departures I can't really think of any appropriate contexts outside of total conversions, re-adapatations of old stories or productions for theater and opera, which is different from localization/translation, ofc.
I've seen some wild things there, including Monostatos in Mozart's Magic Flute (who is referred to as a "black" indentured slave-driver) in black leather biker getup and the three ladies dressed up in sparkly spandex with illuminated elements on their breasts and crotch. That was a really fun version. Another famous example for a well-executed and well-received adaptation is Akira Kurosawa's Ran, which is basically a retelling of Shakespeare's King Lear in Sengoku-era Japan. It's kind of relevant what gets changed as well: Theater and Opera usually barely alter the text, but radically changes the context and delivery, while adapting movies often change quite a lot, but keep the ideas behind characters and plot intact (or at least try to do so, only to fail miserably).

Honorifics are a tough one. I used to think we should just do away with them in localization, but at least for Manga I'm kinda on the fence right now. They're not commonly part of English anime dubs, with notable exceptions that I've yet to watch, and I think they would be more disruptive than immersive here. Watching some of those exceptions might change my mind, at least partly.
Also your mention of a guide really isn't a bad suggestion. It's not uncommon for immersive fiction and fantasy novels to include glossaries and/or introductory pages that explain terms specific to the universe (e.g The Black Jewels trilogy by Anne Bishop). Those can also be used to provide better immersion in a different culture, as I've seen in the German version of Dimitry Glukhovsky's Metro 2033. That one had a rather expansive glossary at the end, explaining terms a general audience (what I mean with naive readers) would likely not be familiar with.

A naive audience (which I daresay we are mostly not on this forum)

I think you're overestimating us.

C'mon, let me be optimistic here.

Also yeah, I get the sentiment. Any translation is better than not getting to enjoy it at all. I've actually read some relatively passable edited machine-translations for new titles (manhua and manga) this year, which really weren't great, and certainly included even less nuance, but still provided way more enjoyment than not having access at all.

last edited at Nov 8, 2020 6:38AM

How far you want to remove the translation from the original massively depends on what you're trying to achieve and what target audience you're translating for.
The only recent SAD translation I've been following is Wanna go out?, and I think I've already offered my praise for what they did with it over in the thread of that series. I love how they take liberties. My general aspiration in localization/translation would be delivering a target text that is indistinguishable from one originally written in the target language, and I think that's what SAD are going for as well. That always means that some (lesser?) cultural aspects and a bit of the original's nuance are lost. A naive audience (which I daresay we are mostly not on this forum) probably would not have known about these aspects and might be put off by nuance that's alien to them. That omission can legitimately be seen as an issue and runs counter to Venuti's ideals of translation, as he focuses much more on transporting alien cultural aspects, challenging the reader and, in a sense, educating them.

I theorize that an adaptation like SAD's WGO? may deliver an experience for us that is closer to what a Japanese person gets when reading the original, than what we'd get if the TL-team stuck closely to the original and found themselves explaining phrases and concepts through footnotes every other page. Still, I see merit in both approaches.

Lol if I had a penny for every time I saw somebody in a manga say "Eh? That's a little... !" I'd preorder a PS5.

To be fair, that's IMO just a too literal approach to translation. While the elliptical phrase "sore wa chotto..." to my knowledge is indeed very commonly used in Japanese (being a high-context culture and all), I think it would be appropriate to use a variety of translations adapted to the situation that better express the desired/inferred sentiment in the target language. I find Crunchyroll's subtitles for the currently airing adaptation of Tonikawa pretty refreshing in that regard.

Then again, that's probably also my bias towards domestication in localisation. I have softened my stance on that in the last year and a half, though, so please don't go too hard on me now.

last edited at Nov 7, 2020 6:48PM

I also don't like it when they act like they have to say it out loud to make it real when they have been macking on each other for presumably more than two months now.

It's a Japanese cultural thing. It's reality in fiction, and it's extremely common.

Japanese culture is a culture of reading the context and reading the atmosphere, where you regularly imply things rather than stating them in an explicit way — and trust the other party to get your meaning without further clarification. In manga and tv shows it often leads to hilarious situations when someone tries to do this "imply not state" thing to a kuuki yomenai character who can't get a clue even if it's driven into their skull with a hammer.

That last sentence made me think of Oldboy for some odd reason... Gave me an idea what to rewatch some time.

Yeah, I agree that it's an aspect inspired by Japanese culture and reality, but I wonder how realistic it actually is. It seems to often be blown way out of proportion in fiction. Sure, it might just be my western (German, no less - we're rather low-context) background, but I sometimes really can't fathom the mental Gymnastics characters in Japanese fiction perform. It's one of the tropes I wouldn't mind being cut back on a little, or dealt with better as an integral part of character development and growth throughout the series, as it was handled in Bloom Into You.
Great examples of ongoing manga I'm currently reading that are IMO guilty of overusing that trope would be Irajinaide Nagatoro-san, Hino-san no Baka and Can't defy the lonely girl - despite the latter only being 11 chapters in as well, it's way more annoying there than here. Might be because they're not as openly horny and don't have a wingwoman as capable as Miyoshi-senpai.

I mean I know you can be blind to the obvious truth and lie to yourself very effectively, while on the other hand I also know that you can actually enjoy fooling around with someone without being romantically into them at all.
Still, I think Japanese fiction is sometimes really stretching it.

I mean, I'd be totally down with Ichika saying "I know, baka. But then I guess we can't be friends anymore. (pause for dramatic effect) So I guess that makes us girlfriends!"

Gladly, but I have a stupid question before that: What does JK stand for in this case?

Stand for Joshikausei or Highschool girl in english

Thanks.

Can we go back on talking on wholesome JK Yuri and not personal grudge ?

Gladly, but I have a stupid question before that: What does JK stand for in this case?

Problem is, besides some mild speculation on whether they did bang off-screen or not, I have no hot takes on this new chapter.
It was just horny and cute and squee. I mean, senpai actually having the desired matchmaking effect for once, and even on the first try, is amazing in and of itself.

And I'm pretty sure Ichika is NOT wearing anything under that short and skimpy Yukata, and here's why: Judging by the angle, we should be getting a hint of panty in the final panel on page 21, but we don't - we see the bare upper part of her hips, where you would kinda expect cloth. Same goes for page 24, panel 2. The way her buttocks show in the second panel on page 23 also reinforces that idea - she's either wearing a thong, has a mean wedgie or, most likely IMO, isn't wearing any.
Likewise, we're not shown any parts belonging to a bra when Shiine subsequently exposes Ichika's shoulders and chest. I know, the absence of proof is not the proof of absence, but I think the evidence is rather conclusive, right?

That said, I have my own "they haven't gotten laid off-screen yet, but will soon" pet peeve, so [insert shrug emoticon here]

The horny is strong with them. I have faith.

So this is also just a fragment of the forum discussion that once existed? It was linked to by luinthoron on page three here. https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/14909-after-school-ch01-discussion

Now if the discussion about them getting frisky off screen happened during an early hiatus (or even before chapter 2 landed here), I could definitely see how I might have agreed, but as things stand now, I'm more than skeptical.

I don't think they've already done it off-screen. It's fine if you think that way, and I'm not ruling it out entirely, but it doesn't fit with how I perceive their thought processes and how Shiine's still so awkward and bashful about seeing Ichika's undies (or lack thereof).
Also the Oshimas probably wouldn't really have a problem with going there and showing it. I mean, just look at their track record. There's more titles tagged "NSFW" and/or "Lots of Sex" than titles without either tag.

Edit: I take it that discussion happened on the discord or something? Because I couldn't find a trace of it in this thread or the old one for chapter 1.

last edited at Nov 6, 2020 10:09AM

before reading
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
FINALLY!

after reading
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
IT WAS SO WORTH THE WAIT!

last edited at Nov 5, 2020 7:32PM

Question, does the majority of this series take place before or after the main couple is together?

Before
they only get together in the final volume

Gotcha, thanks for the reply!

I'd disagree with DY4Y's assessment.
If you mean "Is this story about one chasing after the other?" then no, it's not. They skip the chase entirely, basically become a thing very early on and then spend about 40 chapters figuring out if they really are together, what that means, what they mean to each other, who they are and how they fit together. The good stuff, basically.

Sexuality is just as much of a product of how a person is wired psychologically as their personality. You wouldn't say a person can't have a certain type of personality because of some physical aspect of their biology would you? You're confusing the terms sex and sexuality. Sex is biological, but sexuality is almost entirely mental. This is the reason why I have championed trans women and hermaphrodites identifying as female being included as part of yuri. It's part of who they are on the inside. Therefore, homosexuality has almost nothing to do whatsoever with biological sex, and is the reason trans women would be rightfully annoyed if you called their relationship with a man yaoi or homosexual.

That is really well argued and regardless of whether it's different from how I see it, it's certainly a reasonable way to look at it. Excellently (and carefully) phrased, with enough hedging to not make absolute claims. But aside from that praise, I won't comment on this anymore for now. I've offered to shut up on that topic, and I intend to do so right now.

Alas, since the author neglected to provide any further details about Naru, we're left to wait and guess until (hopefully) the sequel series comes out.

One quick guess about the sequel though: Naru reveals he is an intergalactic being made of light that must fight against those called the Void Lords. Naru and Shiba roam the cosmos, looking for those worthy of using the light to fight the servants of the void. Wait...this sounds awfully familiar....

True, I mean just look at Naru, no way that's a human male! Must be some sort of celestial.

Sure, I'll try to circumnavigate the issue in future so things don't get ugly again.

last edited at Oct 28, 2020 6:01PM

Off-Topic, controversial, potentially offensive - read at your own risk - I just don't like deleting stuff, though maybe I should here

No. All that matter is their gender. Biological sex is irrelevant. I'm giving you a fair warning, this side takes stuff like this incredibly seriously, so if you want to avoid perma ban, you should better rethink what you said, before you'll post another comment on this topic. And from my personal opinion what you just said was extremely insulting.

I am not exactly new to this site, but if disagreement insults you, I'll apologise for offending you, but I'm not going back on what I said before I have an epiphany that changes my mind. That said, I don't think being called "gay" should be offensive to anyone in the modern west anymore - especially here. Now, if Nez-chan or any other mod comes along and asks/tells me to shut up, I'll comply, but I think having a reasonable argument should so far be permissible.

Here's an analogy: From the reactions I knew I would get I conclude that you may like to call me a "TERF" - trans exclusionary radical feminist - whether I agree with that assessment or not, because I would find that label offensive. That would also imply, that I'm a feminist. By many a definition (mainly pre-2015 ones, I'd think) I would be considered one, too. I reject that label, though, as it's been dragged through the mud enough. What label I prefer doesn't change the reality of things, though, and I wouldn't fault someone for going by what they perceive.

Okay but can we appreciate that the siblings are a tomboy and a femboy

Assuming that Naru isn't actually trans, yes.

And you just contradicted yourself. So if Naru was trans, they wouldn't be femboy? I thought gender didn't matter for those things.

Not a bad argument, and technically I guess you wouldn't be wrong if you want to define it that way, but I (personally) consider the terms "femboy" and "tomboy" as non-conforming expressions of gender, not sex, distinct from being a trans-man or trans-woman. It really is complicated, isn't it, and everyone seems to have some slightly different definitions and ideas here and there, right?

Wait a second, that would mean that there could me trans-men that are femboys and trans-women that are tomboys? Sounds funny, but I guess that would be a consequence and I'm down with that. If you find me using it differently in the past, that's evidence that I'm confusing even myself. Self-contradiction is a part of life, especially over a period of time when frames of reference may change and new information may be incorporated.

last edited at Oct 28, 2020 12:28PM

A trans women and a man is absolutely not yaoi nor is it homosexuality of any sort

I don't think it's that cut and dried, but depending on the individual couple we're in really muddy waters. I'd say as long as the genitals of both parties are still male, it does constitute homosexual acts (not necessarily homoeroticism, though) from a purely biological perspective, not in terms of gender, and as soon as genitals are altered, we have a constellation that we don't really have words for yet. Definitions of the terms may also adapt over time, but as things are right now, biology and physiology is still an important factor.

Okay but can we appreciate that the siblings are a tomboy and a femboy

Assuming that Naru isn't actually trans, yes. And from how I read the manga, Naru isn't particularly offended by defaulting to that assumption either way.

last edited at Oct 28, 2020 7:33AM

People keep calling the hinted relationship between Naru and Shiba yaoi, but I don't think that's correct. When Ookuma asks them if they're a man, they very explicit say their sex is male. Now, that could just be an artifact of the translation, but it seems like a very specific and unusual wording. They also always appear in very feminine clothes and act in a more traditionally feminine way.

My guess is that Naru is actually trans. or at least somewhere on that end of the spectrum, in contrast to Mizuki who just prefers more masculine cloths both still thinks of themselves as a woman and who gets surprised when people mistake them for male.

Definitely seems like Naru's at least habitually crossdressing. Not sure if I agree on defining the relationship as yaoi or not yaoi. Question is whether "yaoi" is really just "male homosexuality", and thus based on sex, not gender, or if the classification is commonly used based on gender over sex.

Well there's your spinoff material. Shiba + Kanda Jr. could be cute, and I think it's absolutely a set up for a spin-off that'll still feature plenty of OokuKanda in a supporting role and play the mixup-reversal-game from the other side.

Curious if Naru thinks of himself as transgender (making it herself, obviously) or just likes this appearance (and has a knack for it, too) and thus "just" crossdresses.

@Selene
Yes and no - I mean it definitely could be viewed as such and I think they both low-key get it, but I (unfortunately?) doubt they'll act on it.

On to the obligatory "oh no, now you've got my cold and I need to take care of you" chapter. Maybe that'll give them the final push.

Also I don't think Hino's parents will be coming home the next day... and it's kinda been set up for us to assume that they won't at all.

Oh man, this comment section is gold.

I'm not sure if Hino was actually putting on a poker face or actually spacing out and barely conscious. The "I can't remember anything, how about a repeat" followed by a title drop unfortunately (?) seem quite likely regardless.

Anyway, Hino ded of preciousness. (not even sorry for appropriating the meme from luinthoron)

last edited at Oct 13, 2020 8:55AM