I've grown used to her quickly, but I think neither actress protrayed Yuu the way I expected her to sound when I read the manga. Oftentimes the anime completely overwrites my impression or I grow to like it, but in this rare case I just don't think either did her real justice.

Yeah, it's rough when that happens, but that's the crux of any adaptation to a different medium.

Bebop is a once in a decade miracle dub where everything came together incredibly well. You will barely find anyone who is not a diehard dub hater that denies it was good. It is not representative of its time, nor of the genere overall.

True, and while CB stands above its contemporaries immeasurably more, Black Lagoon isn't representative of its time either, they're both probably by far the best examples of their times (maybe with The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya coming close to BL).

Spice & Wolf holds up phenomanally... Though I guess I haven watched the English version in years. The Japanese dub at the very least is still as amazing as it was back then. Spice & Wolf deserved a season 3, 4, 5 ,6 and whatever else it needs to catch up to the novels. Such a shame that Japan has shit taste.

Maybe you should rewatch it. It's not bad at all, just takes a little getting used to it again, and overall it was a superb experience rewatching it after a few years. Also yes, please, gods of anime, give us seasons 3 through 8 (assuming they do 2 LN volumes per season again and jumping off after vol. 16 or 17). J Michael Tatum and Brina Palencia are also still very much in business and play so nicely off each other...

As we already established last time we "discussed" this topic, you just got used to one side of the equation. Because you are biased towards English dubs after mostly only listening to them (and understanding them), the Japanese dubs seem outlandish to you. You can't pick up the ways their voices work or how well acted they are because of too little exposure. I'll just flat out say it, the Japanese cast is more experienced in the field and far more talented. They also don't have to work with shoddy scripts.

Completely fair assessment, nothing to argue against there. If I were able to properly understand Japanese dubs without needing to rely on subtitles, I'm pretty sure I'd be watching that way.

If that was Tia Ballard's best performance I don't want to hear her worst one. Blegh.

Yeah, YMMV. It sounded quite different from many of her previous gigs and I loved it. She's more often used for calm, and timid, sweet young women (cf. ex. Sakura Quest), which she does well, but didn't make such an impression on me with.

Almost all English dubs pre-2010 are horrible. Don't pretend otherwise.

If you want to set 2010 as the mark, go ahead. I couldn't think of a good English dub from 2000-2006 at all, before Black Lagoon (2007, oh if only Tabitha St. Germain still did anime) and Spice and Wolf (2009, which I don't think has aged as well, just rewatched it last month). Before that I'd call Cowboy Bebop (1999) the benchmark dub.

Little anecdote: earlier this week I hopped into the first episode of The Slayers (1995) on Funimation. Man, that's some retro stuff. It looks, sounds and feels like a cheap homebrew VHS recording of an episode that once aired on TV, and the script and voice acting are about as cringe-inducing as you'd expect.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 12:03PM

Suit yourselves, I guess ;)

@BD I really get that attitude towards availability, used to be my stance as well (would still be if VPN weren't an option). I've chosen for myself that I'd like to at least in some way support the creation of the media I enjoy (which is chiefly anime), but I'd much rather also be able to support a properly licensed service for my region. If I weren't an "English dub" kinda guy, I'd be mostly capable of doing so, Crunchyroll, Netflix, Amazon and hidive (also available in Germany with a fraction of their US catalog) have a fair selection of subs (and in Netflix's case hideous German dubs).

Curiously, the way Japanese Seiyu sound often rubs me the wrong way, so I generally find anime more palatable in English. And since it's not my native tongue either, many English dubs (at least those made after 2006 as well as a select few from before that - the quality has improved massively since the 90s) don't feel as bad to me as German dubs generally do.
Bloom into You I found a particularly well acted dub and I much preferred the voices of Tia Ballard (Yuu, probably her best performance to date), Luci Christian (Touko), Shanae'a Moore (Sayaka) and Clint Bickham (Maki) over the Japanese version.

@Lilliwyt funny, I couldn't quite warm up to that dub. I don't think it's bad by any means, but I wouldn't count it among the better ones.

Edit: I don't think there's an official English dub for any of the Monogatari series, Blastaar, so it was probably a fanmade dub. Netflix has a German dub, and I couldn't take that one for more than 2 minutes.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 10:31AM

It's available legally on hidive (Sentai's own streaming service), provided you either live in the US or convince the website that you do.
I'd rather use paid "as close to legal as possible" streaming (vpn+"licenced" service) than illegal streaming (for which you obviously want a VPN as well).

@Blastaar they didn't include a new English dub in the Blu-Ray release, did they? (assuming you got a US-release Blu-Ray from Sentai)

About the adaptation: I can't judge how close the subtitled, let alone the Japanese version, is to the original (which I've likewise also only read in a few different translations) in terms of word choice and phrasing. I know that the English dub has taken some liberties and significantly altered some parts (as has been discussed to death, I know, let's not rehash that), which I must say I didn't personally mind. Since I read the manga only after I'd seen the anime (and 95% only in dub as well) my inner voice direction and acting for the manga's dialogues was already influenced by their interpretations and as such I didn't find it to be that much different in tone, but I do think you could make a point that Yuu and Sayaka's interactions come across as a bit more sharp and pointed in the anime.

Content wise I'd say it was a very faithful adaptation of chapters 1-24, with the ending of the aquarium being altered (IIRC in cooperation with Nakatani herself) to make the anime feel a bit more rounded by itself, with no second season on the horizon. I also think that they captured the artstyle and visual quality rather well in most situations. I for one loved the lush skies, considered making a screenshot from the stone-hopping scene of episode 6 (or was it 7?) my PC wallpaper for a while.

I think the scenes involving physical contact and intimacy came out really well in the anime, as they did in the manga, obviously.

That pre-aquarium train station scene was, as you said, a lot clearer in showing what manner of dark place Touko's mind had wandered to, simply due to the "arriving train" noises (which, even if present, would come across way less oppressive in written form). The manga isn't really subtle here either, though, so I think the extra emphasis is warranted. Lots of negative space in the images (pp. 21, 22), downtrodden mood and Touko's standing really close to the edge. Seeing her reaction to Yuu's message in motion, however, certainly added to the experience for me.

last edited at Jan 10, 2020 9:04AM

They could simply do the voice acting abroad, too. Extremely common practice in the video game industry at least. Recording studios are everywhere and the Internet exists to transfer data.

It's not always quite so easy. Some companies are very protective of their material and would rather not transfer it to new partners or studios they don't usually work with half a globe away. Much of that is paranoia, and it's a rather rare phenomenon, but leaks are an unfortunate fact of the entertainment industry.

That normally only applies to really, really high profile stuff, though. The place where I work was involved in the German dubbed version of the latest Game of Thrones seasons, and due to previous leaks by third parties they were only given poor materials to work with, which does not make it easier for the voice actors (and in our case, also the script writers).

Another potential issue is that different studios get different results, as every setup is slightly different - be it the microphone, software or just the layout of the recording room. Additionally, from what I remember, it's not uncommon for anime dubs (yes, the Japanese version is technically a dub as well) to be recorded with multiple VAs in the room at the same time.

I'd advocate waiting until she has time to come to Japan for it rather than doing it abroad. If the producers make it worth her time, she should be able to readily squeeze the entire recording into one semester break.

Mind you, I probably won't peruse the Japanese dub either way, and just wait for the English dub release, especially if Sentai end up releasing it with a mere two week delay yet again. Still, I think it'd be better for the Japanese version if they take their time with the recording.

last edited at Dec 7, 2019 9:05AM

Considering what ends up happening in the manga ending it kind of makes this doujin funny. https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/an_evening_breeze_blows_in

I thought that one was pretty decent and funny in its own right. One of, like, only three hentai doujinshi for YagaKimi in existence?

I think it captured the character dynamic quite well, although the author obviously had to remove some social and mental restrictions to have them go all out already.

Now if only the art of that doujin had been on par with Nakatani's original. Come on, one can dream, right?

My two cents on rings: They are bands of (usually precious) metal. As such their objective value is determined mostly by the materials chosen and the craftsmanship that went into it.

Any further value is purely up to the individual person. If you want an engagement ring, hope you can afford it. If you don't want one at all, good for you. My wife and I got rings when we got engaged. Not your typical embellished engagement rings, though, but simple gold bands with a nice "hammer" finish that's by now mostly worn off. We knew we'd be using them as wedding rings eventually, because who says you can't just choose a plain engagement ring and, for example, switch it to the other hand when you get married?

Specifically about their rings I'd say that they're not really "engagement rings", they can't (yet) get married either way and at least Yuu hasn't come out to her family yet. So they're not even "official" yet.

last edited at Oct 1, 2019 7:31AM

This isn't a coming out story. This is about two persons learning to love and finding their place.

You're disappointed about something the author never intended to talk about.

Well now that we can speak with hindsight: Obviously. Yet I still somehow wasn't "detracted" from my expectation.

I'd also say that "finding your place" should definitely include being comfortable and confident enough about your identity to let your family in on your relationship.

But, uh, I'd rather discuss this once we don't need spoiler tags anymore. So can we put this off a few days?

last edited at Sep 28, 2019 1:45PM

So we got a final chapter. It's okay, I guess.

I am a little bit disappointed, but hey, what we got overall was nothing short of spectacular, and me not getting everything I'd hoped for from the ending is really a small price to pay.

Sure, it'd be hard to write two or three coming-out scenes (famil(ies), friends) and convey them in just one chapter, but I was convinced Nakatani would take that in stride and at least give us one.
I am really disappointed that at least two years have passed and they've been keeping their relationship a secret from at least Yuu's parents for the whole time. (Timeframe deduced from the former second-years now being in college and the former first-years apparently being done with school as well.) I was certain the plot thread that had been initiated by Rei contemplating how a coming-out would play out would eventually be followed up on.
Now I know, the Japanese are a lot more reserved towards PDA than us westerners anyway, but still... You'd probably have to be utterly dense not to notice that something intimate's going on for two whole years. Not sure how long the friends and Rei have known about it - considering that Natsuki hasn't even seen Touko yet - but it would have been nigh on impossible to keep it from them.

That timing is pretty convenient, about a week before the final chapter...

Also kinda makes me even more hopeful that we'll get a second season.

Wonder if we'll get home video audio on hidive, if they redid any of it. They have updated the available streaming audio in the past I think.

Also yay, Golden Time dub.

last edited at Sep 18, 2019 12:33PM

With all due respect, Zormau, your posts are reasoned and articulate—and often rather delusional.

Hehe, no argument there, especially in this case.

Chapter 39 is prior to Yuu and Touko’s reconciliation. It is beyond unlikely that Touko would consult Rei before meeting Yuu in those circumstances.

Then in Chapter 42, Rei sees Yuu run off to meet Touko and thinks, “Lately she’s gone from being down in the dumps to walking on air. Busy girl.” Alternate translation: “Her mood has been up and down lately.” Clearly indicating that Rei doesn’t know what is affecting Yuu’s mood.

I had forgotten that one, thanks for the reminder. Yeah, that blows my theory, fun as it was, out of the water.

And Japanese has an excellent way of communicating the nuances of naming and familiarity, one that does not require inventing a nickname: honorifics. Sayaka, for instance, calling Yuu “Koito-san” is not the same as calling her “Koito.”

While you're right, I think it's a pretty decent compromise between flow and authenticity. Everyone will draw their line somewhere else. I also think nuances between, for example, Sayaka calling Yuu "Koito" instead of "Koito-San" can be well enough expressed through tone.

I think a small part of my aversion to honorifics probably stems from how much of a meme they've often become in English. It might be a worthwhile endeavour to try and take them back from the "notice me senpai" crowd and use them for more earnest experiences again, but I don't think that's my battle to fight.

Translate, of course, in any way that makes your feelings tingle. Be not surprised when others remain markedly un-tingled, however.

Nothing's gonna work as well for everyone, yeah.

It's highly unlikely, but not impossible.

If it's not confirmed or denied it's totally gonna be my headcanon.

Ch. 39

I don't think Rei appeared in that chapter? I just re-read it to find her, but didn't see her anywhere?

No, she didn't, you're right.

The chapter starts with Yuu laying in bed while Rei's having a long phone call in the next room and the murmur is keeping her awake - or rather, that's her excuse for not being able to sleep. Yuu assumes that she's on the phone with Hiro, but I'm not convinced. Touko's not a bad judge of character, so she might have figured that she could entrust herself to Rei. It's a stretch, but isn't that what fan theories are for?

^ I'm sorry, the Wi-Fi sucks here in Lloret, can you just tell me what the vid says, since I can't wait to return home to find out.

Don't Yuu worry, it's just a laugh track on YT, from the HollywoodLaughTracks selection.

Yay, I'mma make another post towards the very emotive discussion we had.
It's gonna be a big concession, so pls don't be mad.

I've mulled it over and over in my head and come to some conclusions. Took a while, but I'm kinda stubborn that way.
While I still find the dub to flow more nicely due to the omission of Japanese address habits, I had forgotten that they can add quite a lot of depth to a story. It's just that I didn't, and still don't necessarily, consider BiY that way.
That isn't to say that I don't acknowledge that proper address habits (surnames and first names, that is, I'm not budging on honorifics themselves) can add another subtle layer to characters and interactions. I was effectively reminded of this yesterday when I rewatched an episode of Hyouka on a whim, where the English dub does deliberately employ first names and family names to emphasize the relationship dynamics between the characters throughout the story. Now I'd say that Hyouka is much more deeply steeped in Japanese culture and lore, but the point stands: it can add so much that I was neglecting.
Coming back the the Manga at hand: If I go through with my editing project, I'll definitely do the first few chapters with both a first-name as well as a more authentic approach (sans honorifics), just to see if they're really that different to me. Spoilers: I think it'll work.
It wouldn't solve all the issues. The StuCo scene in Ch. 12 would work right off the bat. "Touko-Senpai" could, for the most part, become just "Touko", the few times that actually happens. A name-substituting or lone-standing "Senpai" is usually mostly filler or an address and can probably be replaced with either the surname, a different idiomatic filler or a pronoun. For the finale of Ch. 44, however, I can't quite see a better solution than a nickname. I mean, in that situation a nickname would probably work since they are lovers and it was an intimate situation... but still, unless it's foreshadowed in Ch. 12, it's not quite as elegant (which I think can be done without much issue).

Thoughts? (pray for my soul...)

Also I have another theory for the final chapter: They're coming out to Yuu's family, but Rei already knows and does her best to move it along swimmingly. Not only has Rei put two and two together herself, but I wouldn't be surprised if she was on the phone with Touko that night at the start of Ch. 39, not Hiro.

last edited at Sep 11, 2019 4:23PM

and then they intertwined fingers.

Yep. Things got really lewd this time around.

You were so focused on if Yuu could, you never stopped to as if Yuu should.

Don't know about you, but I was always convinced that Yuu should, and in this latest chapter we finally got to see that Yuu could.

Just trying to kinda take it back to topic.

No, they don't, because the context has been completely changed and it doesn't match the essence of original. So no, they do not get the gist of it, because here, the nuance has been removed and butchered.

Honorifics are the opposite of nuance to me. They're about as in-your-face as it gets. Hence "hierarchy is expressed differently in English, yet it still exists". Sure, that argument is irrelevant if you want the story to remain as specifically Japanese as you do, as much linguistically as culturally.

It's not. It would be if it was localization done right, but it isn't. We aren't arguing about doing localization or not. We're arguing whatever that localization was done well or not. And choice between well done localization and poorly done one is not "apples and oranges". As BugDevil said, it's pretty clearly case of you simply liking it and defending it despite its flaws.

This is very important: I don't like it despite the "flaws", as you call them. I love it for them. They immeasurably improved my watching experience.

Because you don't care about Japanese culture and are more than willing to remove it from the work.

Now that's coming off a little strong and hostile, don't you think?

You're ignoring that even if you perfectly follow sociolinguistic rules of the target language, the story still takes place specifically in Japan, so you can't change the norms to fit target audience and then hand wave the fact, they don't match anymore to what was presented in original story. No matter how much you want it to, it doesn't reflect original context anymore.

Right. So would you like me to rewrite a chapter and actually not "reflect the original context anymore"? That would certainly be an interesting experiment. It could be set it in an Austrian University, different continent, age range and school type, that should make for an interesting context, you know, because it apparently makes no difference if I "misrepresent" one aspect or the entirety of it.

That would be a monstrous thing to do, which is how you and Gude have been portraying the existing dub's script.
It's also what modern theater people do all the time.
"What, the Magic Flute is set in a fictional, religiously-inspired fantasy world with magic? Let's put it in a late 20th Century German city. Papageno the bird catcher is now a burnt-out businessman, Monostatos the (emphatically black) African slave is now a white biker wearing black leather."
Come to think of it, that was actually a fun interpretation to watch and listen to, despite being really offensive to the purists.

Yes. I expect to get experience as close to original as possible. You just want to read something that flows well and don't care if original story had to be changed in the process.

I'd add "slightly" to "changed", but yes. Flow is more important to me, as long as the character, message and feel of the story remains unchanged.

But you do you. It's clear nothing we tell you, will ever change your mind. It's a bit scary that you or people like you might be working on some localizations in the future.

You yourself probably need not worry about me. I'll only be localising works into German, at least professionally. And believe you me, what we currently have is about as terrible as bad-to-average English localisations from fifteen years ago.
Besides, if the market or client decides that localisations are appreciated more the way you like them, that's what we'll start delivering. I don't know if there have been any studies on that, and due to cohort effects the results might be of limited use for companies aiming for broad audiences, but we'll do what the market decides.

Now that is rich. You first preach how translation should do all work for reader/watcher and make it as in line with sociolinguistic rules of the target audience as possible, but now when said translation fucked up something, you're backpedaling and saying the audience should figure out how to make sense of it?

The debate about this scene is one I really can't win, and never really could. You've all argued the point quite well, so I'll concede that the scene will never work as smoothly as the original did.
When I first watched it (before I'd read the manga), I immediately caught on to what the original context of this scene and the one before had been. It was clear that the scene had been constructed around the way Touko and Yuu address each other (or rather, how Touko addresses Yuu), and that they'd had to rewrite it since they'd been using first names from the start. This definitely reinforces your point that it did not quite work out by itself. I'm probably contradicting previous assertions I'd made. I admit that I'm backpedalling in this case.
As mentioned before, I was and still am willing to have this scene not work out quite as well, considering how much more I enjoyed the rest of it.

There is one thing that I would like to remind you all of. You've been on this forum for years, probably been reading Shoujo and Yuri manga for a good portion, if not the better part, of your lives. I haven't.
I'm a former aficionado of all things Japanese, part-time anime and JRPG enthusiast with probably only about a hundred watched shows under my belt.
This means you've been living and breathing this medium and these translations. They're second nature to you. They're completely natural to you. You don't stumble over surnames and honorifics, because you're nearly as used to them as a Japanese person. I do, as do those around me.

Our perspectives are different. Your perspective, of the purist, enthusiast, aficionado, is a very valuable one to have and consider. It is not, however, the only valid one.

I'm obviously not as invested as you are in the purity of the original, and here's why:
I consider "how much did I enjoy it" the ultimate metric to entertainment media. BD can claim that it's irrelevant, but in the end we consume fiction to have a fun or emotional experience. In some cases we appreciate it being weird, foreign or difficult, in other cases we enjoy how polished the experience is.

I'm fairly familiar with Japanese culture as well, don't worry, but I don't find enjoyment from the stories in anime and manga because of their setting. It's not despite it, either. Stories work across cultures. Characters work across cultures. Sure, some elements will be specific, and those can be very important. Linguistic ones, however, rarely make or break a story.

If the alterations in the script actually ruined the dub for you, then I feel honestly sad for you.
Because you were unable to enjoy the one piece of media I enjoyed most in years.
You simply can't please everyone.

If they actually re-dub it with the alterations Gude would like to see, I will absolutely watch that dub as well. If I end up enjoying it as much as I did the first version, I'll happily eat my words. I wouldn't hold my breath, though, for either of those events. That is the one thing that could change my mind.

Anyway. I'm going to do something else now, so would Yuu excuse me...

I had to.

Thanks for the effort. Yuu did gud. I also had to

Edit: Damn now I really want to see this alternative dub. You'd be happy to have the version "as it should be", I'd get to properly test my assertion that I enjoyed the omission of Japanese address formalities. It's a win-win, right?

last edited at Sep 7, 2019 5:37PM

At this point I'd rather see more puns than this tedious back-and-forth over localization, even though the latter is at least nominally on-topic.

I'd say the discussion between Blastaar, Nevri, BD and me is done, so I'll quickly (really) wrap up with Gudetamago and hope the best.

@Gudetamago
A discussion about nuance is not the same as a nuanced discussion. You know that. ;-)

I'd be very curious about what factors brought about our different perspectives, because we disagree on many things in strange ways. We probably shouldn't pursue that train of thought here, though.
It's tempting to draw it out and further enumerate on the hows and whys of what I think, but let's do Nezchan a favour and stop.

Dunno about Yuu, but I think we're done with the discussion anyway.

We should probably REIn in our egos now and appreciate what we got.

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 8:52AM

@Gudetamago I'll just go ahead and quote myself conceding that the scene you mentioned would have made more sense with minor alteration:

For that episode, it would have worked out perfectly if she'd thought to have Touko refer to Yuu as "Yuu, dear" instead of just having Sayaka remark that "something feels off" in general.

"Perfectly" was obviously exaggerating things, but we weren't in nuanced debate mode back then, right?
Obviously, Doujima's remark would have to be altered as well then, but let's look at where it stands currently:

I can very easily accept Maki and Doujima being referred to by their surname as a consequence of them being pretty much the only boys around. Makes sense to me.
You definitely need to stretch a little in a different direction to resolve cognitive dissonance regarding Doujima's remark. It can be done: Doujima, Maki and Yuu are the three first years of the StuCo, yet only one of them is referred to by their first name. That being the case it seems plausible (to me) that Doujima was under the assumption that the elders would refer to their underclassmen by family name. He is presented as a bit of an occasional airhead, so it's plausible that he just hadn't realized this before.

I appreciate that you assume incompetence rather than malice, but I honestly believe it was ambition.
And I maintain that the honorifics just break the flow for me when reading the manga. They feel stilted and awkward to me. I know I'm alone with this perspective in this discussion, but that's just the way it works for me, and I'm willing to have one scene not work out quite as well for the overall increase in QoL.

I probably should heed Blastaar's advice and not make any more puns... because this entire discussion was started over one.

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 5:57AM

@BD: since you've now stated that you're done I'll leave it at what I've said so far. We have different ideas of what localisation can and should do, and that's fine.

Thanks for pointing out the passage of Kobayashi's. I'll only say that I have no issue with what Funimation did with it. It most likely was not a translator that added the line about dragons, but an editor that saw a chance for a small quip.

I think our positions and preferences have had a fair airing by now, so my last word here:

”Apparent similarity” can be substantially misleading, and even more alienating from the origin text than leaving in unfamiliar cultural elements.

Well said, and I'm likewise happy to leave it at that. Besides, I'll be heading off to bed pretty soon either way.

I've enjoyed the discussion. Thanks.

Zormau posted:

Also @BD, in which chapter of Kobayashi's was that mistranslation you mentioned earlier? I'm going through it right now, it's a good read, but I've not yet stumbled across the passage, I think.

It's actually from english dub.

Yeah, I'm looking for the scene so I can have a translation that BD implied would be a more accurate representation.

"Speaking English". They still live in Japan though. That was the point I was making earlier, which you ignored. Even if you change language, it still take place in Japan and so it still should follow Japanese cultural norms. Changing those, because "it works for target audience" and insisting, the original meaning wasn't changed, when you just blatantly admitted it was, is really pretty dishonest here.

Indeed I didn't dedicate as much time and thought to responding to you, sorry about that.
There is no perfect equivalency in translation. Even simply carrying over the honorifics will, in many cases, not be perfectly equivalent. Not only because they're an alien element in English, but also because the audience will not have a uniform concept of what those words entail. Sure, they'll have a rough concept and there will be a lot of overlap and they'll generally get the gist... but don't they also get that from a localisation like the one we got? I think they do.

As Blaastar pointed out, you can't replace everything and match it to culture you're translating it for, because it's not just the way you address other people. Some things simply don't translate, and when you're forcing them to adhere to different culture, it becomes foreign to both.

I think I answered the first of those sentences to Blastaar a few moments ago, referring to similarity and approximation as opposed to equivalency.
As for the target text becoming foreign to both cultures... I don't really see why I should care whether the localised text is now alien to the original language community... They are absolutely not the target audience.

And give us the nightmare that Ace Attorney become later. I bet they would ask themselves, the same way that localization team did, "why the hell did we changed it to America in the first place?!".

Yes, indeed, sometimes things just go horribly wrong. But then again, I think it's apples to oranges. Making the way hierarchy is expressed less specifically Japanese is a far cry from actually hard-changing the setting to another continent...

Yet, neither are unheard of in the world of modern theater and opera. shudders

Again, you're assuming it's possible to constantly change and match everything in 1:1 ratio. Instead of bending over backwards to fit it into completely different culture and possibly fuck it up in the long run, when something they couldn't predict shows up, I'd much rather they focus all of their effort and creativity to translate it accurately in the first place.

No translation or localisation is ever 1:1. Accuracy is a relative term and has different aspects and parameters.

We're not dealing with babies that need to be hand-hold. We're dealing with lesbians that do the hand-holding instead.

I know! Isn't that great?!

Also sorry for the double post, but I wanted to address both preceding posts separately and can't really multi-quote easily, can I?

Also @BD, in which chapter of Kobayashi's was that mistranslation you mentioned earlier? I'm going through it right now, it's a good read, but I've not yet stumbled across the passage, I think.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 4:24PM

As you’ve just demonstrated, using nicknames, particularly relatively early in an acquaintance, in the context of a US high school is entirely different than doing the same in a Japanese one,

Yes, that's the exact point I was trying to make there.

and both are different than using/dropping honorifics.

Also undeniably true. See next paragraph.

The kinds of localization you’re talking about implicitly says, “These two things are essentially similar or parallel” when they’re simply not.

Partly true. A localisation is an approximation, not a full equivalency. There often isn't much full synonymy between languages when we factor in context and cultural aspects. Thus we can only approximate via similarities.

Again, it only matters in a translation when the issues are explicitly thematized, but when they are, full localization can amount to a substantial misrepresentation of the origin text.

Also true. I think, however, that the original is not being misrepresented. It just works differently, by the socio-linguistic rules of the target language.

This means that I am more willing than you to take a step back from the setting being as specifically Japanese as possible. That's the big difference I see between our perspectives. I don't need the story to be as specifically Japanese as possible. I don't think it loses anything substantial in this case, as the hierarchies, while less explicit, are still well-represented.

We simply expect different things from and value different aspects in our entertainment products. Truth be told, I would probably have put myself into your "camp" a year ago or so. I've since written my BA thesis on translation and found the domesticating aspect of my subject fascinating. It's a lot more work, and there is obviously an added risk with ongoing IPs, but it can be quite worthwhile.