^^^ oh you kids, sit by the campfire and let me tell you a story about a little game called Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE...
Not the first time is putting it mildly. The problem lies with Nintendo Treehouse, and the puritanical nun they evidently hire to translate specifically all Fire Emblem Games for the last ten years. Starting from Awakening, every FE game has been altered by the translation team to tone down "adult" themes like sex and violence.
I do not know why Fire Emblem is singled out like this, since it seems to be the only Nintendo - only franchise that gets this systematically fucked with.

That author's note on Kaname though...
"I bought a book about psychopaths and it had a lot to say about Kaname"
LOL glad I am not the only one

No, I am explaining what is. How I feel about the status quo does not factor in yet. You made it sound like my brain just threw dice without me noticing that made me hate Shiho from the get-go, and I then scrambled and made up inconsistencies in order to pretend to have a logical reason to hate her.

We're using "feelings" differently. It's my fault since I try and take shortcuts in order to avoid stretching out these messages further. And anyway there's no point having a philosophical debate in relation to this manga, so as I said I'm leaving it.

Aww, but I was having fun. Oh well.

I consider a story competently written when it follows it's own rules without mistakes, and when it also nails the emotional beats, characters and themes, then I would call it good. Of course writing is more than following some rules, but competent writing is the bedrock, the foundation. It is necessary to transport the emotional content to the audience without getting lost. If a story nails one of them, but fails at the other, I cannot call it good, when there are so many stories that succeed on both aspects.

That's one way of measurement amongst many, yes. Remember I'm not arguing that I think this is well written.

Sorry, now I am a little lost. What were you even arguing then? You seemed to deny the claim that the way Shiho is presented in the story versus the way she actually is acting is very inconsistent, which is all I really argued for, all philosophy aside. Whether this inconsistency makes the story good, bad, and if the author intendet it that way can all be topics for future debate. But I don't think we ever established if you even agree or disagree with that assesment.

Hey, I proudly own physical volumes of Citrus, so I am with you on that one.

I actually don't have physical versions yet. I wanted the special art book though. I've got physicals for Vampeerz (favorite) and Hello Melancholic though. Speaking of: Vampeerz just dropped!

I did not know Hello Melacholic got an english release! I have to pick that up, that is one of my favorites on this site.

The argument here is "the story breaks it's own consistency by saying A is true while showing B to be true." That is not a feeling I have, that is me comparing fact A to fact B and spotting contradictions.

The problem is that this does boil down to feelings. You're explaining why you feel the way you do but your feeling comes before your logic and you use your logic to explain. Although I guess we could debate that as well. The point I'm making is I've already said that while this is not a grand experiment in writing, I genuinely do not have the same abrasive reaction to Shiho, nor the same connection to our first introduced pair. I did not read Shiho's intrusion as invasive but a natural process. The story always seemed to be an anthology of sorts that would shift to new pairs as old pairs got together. I hesitate to go into detail because that would require researching my way through the entire manga and I've been avoiding that. Maybe when I have time I can do that. As someone said previously your innate feelings about Shiho is the crux of the issue and to put it simply, I find her and Aki's struggle more compelling when compared to the other rather vanilla pair. The focus on the feelings of others is to make it clear that the story has communicated this same "feeling" in a large enough portion of its audience. This is to say that these feelings are a result of the author's decisions but no author will satisfy everyone. Would the story be well written if it appealed to those here but was hated by most? Since you say it's an exercise in objectivity, I guess you'd say yes--as you say you're arguing for objectively true rules of writing. I'd say no.

Edit: even "measurable" does not change anything. What are you measuring and what's the agreed upon method of measurement? How do you objectively measure? We'll be at this all day. It'll just be semantics. For that matter, let's say we measure partially using audience satisfaction. That's something we can measure much easier but that's been cast aside as "selling out," and "people will like anything that has drama." So what is it, exactly? My experience is that what's "objective" shifts just like something that's subjective. I also don't want to make it seem as though I don't understand general writing guidelines. My profession would make that difficult. They're guidelines determined by there ability to communicate to an audience. Not necessarily objective rules used to objectively measure writing as good or bad. There's more to it than that.

No, I am explaining what is. How I feel about the status quo does not factor in yet. You made it sound like my brain just threw dice without me noticing that made me hate Shiho from the get-go, and I then scrambled and made up inconsistencies in order to pretend to have a logical reason to hate her. I assure you, that is not the case. Has your initial feeling about a character never changed after learning new information? My innate feelings on Shiho were quite positive, I liked her design and found her role in the story intriging. My dislike started after learning new and contradicting information about her. Furthermore, if I present evidence from the story why an event does not make sense, does my emotional reaction to it even matter? Either the event makes sense or it does not, emotion does not come into play here.

Easy example: A story states that it takes 2 hours going from point A to point B using method C. Events take place that support that information. Later on, a character that is shown to be at point A starts travelling to point B using method C. He is shown to arrive 1 hour later. Without additional information, that is a so-called plothole, a contradiction within the internal rules the story previously established. Me noticing that does not require any feelings on my part. It can lead to feelings, but the first step of recognizing that incongruity is pattern recognition, not emotion. When I say Shiho does not make sense, this is what I mean. Of course, we may feel differently about the contradiction, but you simply don't get to say, "Oh, that is not a problem, I feel like the character travelled for 2 hours that time". That is what I mean by objectively bad writing: blatantly false, conflicting or missing information presented by the story without intent. (Intent is important here, as many comedies use senseless writing with intent to great effect, for example). Simply put, the writer made a mistake. Me recognizing that logical error is not emotion-based, my reaction to it is. You are equating step one with step two here.

Of course, you are perfectly fine in enjoying an objectively badly written story. I have done so on many occasion, and will continue to do so in the future. I also don't equate good writing with appeal to audiences at all. How many people or which people like a story has nothing to do with quality. I consider a story competently written when it follows it's own rules without mistakes, and when it also nails the emotional beats, characters and themes, then I would call it good. Of course writing is more than following some rules, but competent writing is the bedrock, the foundation. It is necessary to transport the emotional content to the audience without getting lost. If a story nails one of them, but fails at the other, I cannot call it good, when there are so many stories that succeed on both aspects.

Again, if you feel positive about Shiho, more power to you. Have fun, enjoy the story your way. I neither can nor want to take that enjoyment from you. If you feel we naysayers present factually incorrect information about the story, by all means, correct us. But "I feel differently" is not a counterargument to "This cup is blue", wether we talk about a real cup or a fictional one.

This is not about preference or taste. It's not something subjective. When something doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense. You can like it all the same, and that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact it doesn't make sense.

So it's been decided. What does it matter that others disagree? Nothing. My feelings just so happen to the objectively correct ones. A few people on the internet makes these decisions. I've gotta join that council.

Sorry, that's my first and last snarky comment. Generally try and avoid it but that one was difficult and I'm sometimes weak.

I am all for discussing this, but saying that you feel different is not applicable here. If someone says that something does not make sense, you saying that you feel different is simply not helpful. Noone can argue your feelings, and most sane people don't want to. By all means, provide examples for why you feel that way. Why you feel that Shiho does makes sense, that the story does not contradict it's own logic to try to justify her. That is a very interesting discussion I would love to have. And please don't reduce this to feelings. The argument here is "the story breaks it's own consistency by saying A is true while showing B to be true." That is not a feeling I have, that is me comparing fact A to fact B and spotting contradictions.

To clear up any possible misunderstandings, objective does not mean universally true or agreed upon, objective means measurable.

I'm interested to see what they cover in the anime now. Those discussions will be something.

Also LOL at someone who scoffs at the concept of objectivity calling someone else pretentious.

Who scoffs at objectivity as a whole? The argument is it's difficult to apply in this context, not that it does not exist. The concept isn't even novel within the arts. Many would agree with that idea (and of course some would not). Although pretentious isn't a word I'd use. I agree that's a bit contentious (which this all already has been), plus Citrus was mocked so I'll side with you on that one.

Hey, I proudly own physical volumes of Citrus, so I am with you on that one.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 5:25PM

When Shiho was conceived, or with which intent, is irrelevant.

Of course it matters. If Shiho was planned from the start, then all the more reason you should make an effort to see what the author is trying to tell with her, instead of acting like she sabotaged your fluffy romance. Pretending to know what is better for a story than its own author (and calling it "objectivity") is just too pretentious.

Why do you assume that I don't know or am not trying to understand what the author is trying to tell with Shiho? Key word here is try, because I believe that the execution is what failed. Again for the people in the back. I am fine with Shiho existing. I am fine with her sabotaging my fluffy romance. I am not fine with those things being executed poorly. Despite what Rian Johnson is trying to do with his movies, subversion of expectation is not a mark of quality of its own. Is has to be done well, like all writing. The author can try all they want, at some time you have to look at what they actually did. You are not going to pay someone for painting your house when what they actually did is tear down the walls in the process, no matter how hard they tried to paint them.

I look at what the story is. Why the story is the way it is and what it should have been is secondary. The author might have tried to write a multifaceted story with complex relationships and emotions that all intermingle and therefore lead to inexcapable conflict where there are not really guilty parties. But what is on paper is the story of a broody miseryguts that is solely to blame for all conflict, and drags every other character and their aspirations down to revolve around her pettiness gravity well.

I am not saying I know what is better for the story, I just look at what is there and analyse that, because that is fun for me.

Also LOL at someone who scoffs at the concept of objectivity calling someone else pretentious.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if, after this Shiho drama is wrung dry, one of the characters inexplicably die, and then it turns into a gritty mystery drama for another 20 chapters or something.

Make the character that dies Shiho and we have a deal.

The Dollhouse analogy that @Blastaar made fits very well, because it is purely mechanical.

The problem with that analogy is that it wrongly assumes that Shiho was something the author came up with on the fly, when in fact it was clearly always part of their original plan (as I said before, her first appearance was in the extras of Volume 2). This is the story the author wanted to write from the beginning, and I honestly doubt they "dragged" this arc out for money, as I'm not even so sure Shiho is a very popular character (she's only appeared on one cover so far).

Not only that, but it gives the false impression that the manga has become the exclusive property of Shiho, when the reality is very different. If you reread the series, you will be surprised by the number of chapters where she hardly appears or even does not appear at all.

There's plenty of space in that Dollhouse.

When Shiho was conceived, or with which intent, is irrelevant. The Dollhouse analogy is meant to visualize the clash of Shiho with the established story and characters, and the result thereof. When the doll that does not fit was made, or even planned, does not matter. Even if the author wanted the end result that was achieved, that would not change the fact that we now have a doll too big for the house or other dolls.

Even if Shiho does not appear in person, the main thrust of the story revolves around her for a while now. Which would not be even my main complaint, the main thing that grinds my gears is that she has way to many faults that the story itself never acknowledges, and therefore seems oblivious to. That was not a problem in the story before, so the doll sticks out that way as well.

last edited at Mar 19, 2023 3:03PM

Do you agree that Shiho does not fit, but don't care? Or do you disagree and simply lack counterarguments.

From a literary perspective, the story is better off for having her in it. Certainly not perfect but better. If anything her and Aki should have been more prevalent sooner. I don't identify with many of these complaints, especially from from a writer's perspective. The earlier writing was more lacking and ran itself into a dead end. If anything the earlier portions seemed more by the book and "necessary" to fit in before the author could write what they fully wanted and before they found their footing (which happens when you write novels but working weekly/monthly means some of the evolution happens in real time). As I said, the only thing they could have (and maybe should have) done differently was set expectations clearer by introducing the two earlier. That way the audience would be finer tuned (meaning they would have shed those who disagreed with the vision) but they've had so much success and have created something that's apparently working for many. My adjustments would not necessarily improve the author's impact, so I don't feel all that comfortable saying what they should have done. I don't even know who their intended audience is, for me to say what they should have done confidently.

I actually agree with you that a theoretical Shiho would have made the story better, as a testing ground for Yoru, Himari and their relationship. Just for my better understanding, could you elaborate on when you wrote "The earlier writing was more lacking and ran itself into a dead end. If anything the earlier portions seemed more by the book and "necessary" to fit in". Because that seems like an objective claim to me, not a preference. I assume your perspective is not "I dislike fluff and prefer drama, and I don't care about how it is provided", so I would appreciate a clarifictation, thanks.

People here really love/hate shiho huh.

Yeah, seems so. That and they don't like certain decisions the author made. But what can you do.

This is not about WHAT the writer did, but HOW. The people saying Shiho does not fit the story are mostly discussing craftsmanship, not personal preferences. And craftsmanship can be objectively assessed and discussed, even in art. The story selling well is sadly not an indicator of quality.

I'd really like to avoid an extended discussion about the nature of art. In my profession I do that more than enough already and that'll turn into a much longer thing. I will say that what you're describing is still a preference even if you try to forcefully define it as objective. An author's primary goal is to target, locate and execute in relation it's audience. This author is doing so well enough that discussion about objectivity are largely ambiguous. If they intended to target you, then yes they would have objectively failed. This however is a Japanese manga made for a specific audience whose makeup only the author knows and only that author can definitely say whether they've succeeded at affecting the audience in an intended way. Not everyone agrees with how some others interpret the events or these characters and the author's execution. I imagine most no longer comment since these seem to be negative fairly regularly and that normally creates a vacuum for positivity.

Again my main confusion is at the extended length of these complaints. But really, I guess that's just my own fault. I've just never understood continuing to read or watch something that is not to my flavour. That's why I continue to mention how consistently and thoroughly this manga has made it's direction clear. I'd get it if this were a recent shift but it's been so long now and the comments have become repetitively negative for those who do enjoy what they're reading. But I'm definitely only adding to that negativity so that's the last I'll say on any of it.

What is the difference between forcefully defining something and just... defining something? And how is you defining what an author's primary goal is any less forcefull? Do you agree that Shiho does not fit, but don't care? Or do you disagree and simply lack counterarguments? Saying that if I think a house is on fire is bad, that is just my preference for houses not being on fire is one thing, but at least we agree on the house burning in that case. But okay, no discussion on art itself, fair enough.

Just to help clear things up, I am enjoying reading it. It can be fun to critizise something you deem of poor quality, and that fun only heightens when shared with others. One of my favorite video series on Youtube is a couple of friends watching the CW-Batwoman series and often times howling with laughter about how bad the show is. At the end of the first season, they were genuinely sad about the main actress leaving the show, because she was such a bad actress that it made her really entertaining to watch. I don't brood while I read every new chapter while sticking a Shiho Voodo doll with needles. I am having a good time. And reading and writing comments about what I think does not work is also fun. That is pretty much it.

I love seeing how this discussion thread is still more dramatic and toxic than the story it's discussing, despite all the time that's passed by. People here really love/hate shiho huh

If you think people disagreeing is toxic, I have bad news about the rest of the internet for you, buddy...

Preferences will always differ. There's nothing really objective here. Some might argue that the Shiho events don't fit, others argue differently. My main issue has always been with the consistent tone of surprise about something that's been established for so long at this point. The story has been this way for some time and has continued to do well (pretty much everywhere). The author is doing right by enough people despite how some here feel. Personally, I don't have much issue with Shiho"s character or inclusion (the only thing the author could have done to set expectations and get these discussions out of the way earlier was to include Shiho even nearer to the beginning of the story). Regardless, some of these discussions are treated as though, rather than disagree, you are going against objective fact if you feel differently (as if since the writer doesn't fit a certain preference, they are clearly lesser).

This is not about WHAT the writer did, but HOW. The people saying Shiho does not fit the story are mostly discussing craftsmanship, not personal preferences. And craftsmanship can be objectively assessed and discussed, even in art. The story selling well is sadly not an indicator of quality. I keep reading it because I am entertained by it, in a baffled kind of way. Not because I think it's good. Just for example.

The Dollhouse analogy that @Blastaar made fits very well, because it is purely mechanical. A lot of stuff I read on this thread is about how Shiho does not fit mechanically, and it keeps coming up because it keeps getting worse. I don't think I read a comment on here for months from someone being suprised that Shiho is still in the story. Frustration and disbelief, yes, but not suprise. You get most, if not all of the comments being about Shiho because she is objectively poor craftsmanship, writingwise. She did not fit, she still does not fit, and all efforts by the writer to make her fit thus far have failed, which is what many of the comments are about.

Upon seeing that panel where Aki said that this whole mess is her fault, I literally did a Darth Vader - "NOOOOOOOOOO" out loud. I suspected it was coming before the chapter, I saw it coming during the chapter, but that panel still hurt.

I don't really care if the author did not want to lay the blame squarely on one character, or place any blame at all. The story HAS Shiho who IS to blame, and the refusal or inability by the story to adress that has gone from annoying to downright painful.

Yoooooo let's go! That last page of Shiho and Aki confronting each other gets me almost as hype as Goku and Frieza facing each other on Namek for the first time. Hoping we have an similar epic, drawn-out (verbal) beatdown coming!

I don't know what I want more, Aki just calmly and rationally destroying Shiho's bullshit within a few panels without room for backtalk, or a Ace Attorney - Style back and forth that lasts the whole chapter before Shiho breaks down in defeat.

Now, what we are actually gonna get is a completey different story. I'm guessing either some middle of the road BS or an exoneration for Shiho.
I just want the story to acknowledge Shiho is in the wrong, is that so much to ask?

My man Otaku-Kun. He is like if Sakamoto from "Haven't you heard? I'm Sakamoto" was solely focused on creating yuri couples. Truly the best.

Man, that is depressing...
10 pages of good character development I wanted to see, and it all gets ruined on page 11.
Don't define yourself by your pain, or your existence will be painful. Move on.

I kinda have to agree that I don't see anything romantic between Suletta and Miorine. That whole greenhouse business is about trust and relying on each other, being close. That does not have to be romantic, and I have not seen any scenes between the two that signal attraction on any level. Legend of Korra at least had the hair fidgeting and blushing scene in the restaurant. And her negative reaction to Elan I read more as a reaction to the difference between the new Elan double and the old one, not that she has/had no feelings for HapyyBirthday-Elan.
Don't get me wrong, I want to be proven wrong on this, but so far I am not getting my hopes up.

it's like those people never go outside and interact with an actual terrible person irl, cuz from what i've seen so far Shiho is really nice

Why that comparaison ? I mean, sorry for the language but it's kinda a bullcrap argument because saying there is worse peoples doesn't make it better. It's like saying Tucker in FMA is not that bad because dictators exist. Shiho is a flawed person and so far does everything she could wrong. She is as interesting as watching a train wreck. And pairing her with Hima is like switching a wholesome and fluffy pair to a angsty and a toxic "i can fix her" pair.
The problem is that most people, myself included, thought that after having them going out, we could have wholesome moments with some minor drama and not introducing a drama queen that completly tone shift the manga and take away the time we could had on Hime/Yori.
The thing i saw from your comment is that wholesome manga is clearly not your type and you prefer heavy drama, the problem is that most people her would have prefer the opposite for the manga and i can't blame them because this arc start to feel like a drag and Shiho doesn't really help cause she is doing a lot to be unlikable.

Agreed. “Shiho is really nice” is the kind of hot take that causes dumpster fires.

Could not agree more. The thing is, it is not the concept of Shiho that annoys most people, it is the execution. A tonal shift from pure fluff to more drama can work, especially if the drama comes from a new source. It is the fact that it's BAD drama that is the problem. Shiho is an complete asshat, all her drama is self-caused, and the story and characters don't seem to get that. She gets treated like she has valid points, which is the problem. Not that she is flawed, but that the story and the reader don't agree on the nature and severity of her flaws.

Is it just me, or is it delicously ironic that Shiho left the first place she was valued for her serious attitude regarding music because of petty love drama that went on entirely in her own head, instead of something serious?

It's not in her head. She has just witnessed how her first crush is deeply in love with another person on the same day that she was going to confess her feelings to her. It sounds serious enough to me.

And it's not like she did a big fuss or anything. She just broke the letter and went home. In fact, she didn't quit right away, but after Aki made a comment about her singing (although she was probably waiting to have some excuse like that one and use it to left the band).

The thing is, she has not been slighted in any way. No one wronged her, no amoral action took place. All that happened is that the person she liked didn't like her back, and Aki didn't even knew about her feelings. So all the drama comes from her and her alone.

Music is supposed to be a BIG part in Shiho's life, maybe the biggest. And yet, it has brought her only conflict with those around her (because she is a bitch, but that is beside the point). Aki's band was the first place where she could use music to form genuine connections. And she throws it all away because she can't handle the possiblity of rejection. That is what makes it petty drama, which only stems from her.

Even in this new chapter: Oh, you won't give me exactly what I want from our relationship? Well, I am gonna cut you out of my life and never speak to you again. That is so ridiculously overdramatic and childish. Just shoot your shot and stay friends afterwards, Jesus H. Christ. It is not that hard. If you only want someone around if they fullfill all your desires, that is not love.

Also LOL at Shiho's bandmates basically admitting that they don't want to touch her bullshit with a ten-foot-pole, if she could just sing on stage and shut up the rest of the time, that would be grand.

^
Well, if Gundam Build Fighters is anything to go by, the Gundam Afterlife is a chill place at least.

He.
"You are already gay."
"Nani?"

Is it just me, or is it delicously ironic that Shiho left the first place she was valued for her serious attitude regarding music because of petty love drama that went on entirely in her own head, instead of something serious?

I mean, Loreley were presented at first as a more capable band than Sunny Spot, because they were more serious and didn't fool around. Which would have been a more fitting reason for Shiho to leave in regards to her intended character. But now we know that her serious attitude was more or less the reason she joined Aki's band in the first place, and that she left because she is pretty much an incel, as others here already pointed out.

I get the concept for Shiho's character, but the execution is flawed. While the communication breakdown that lead her to leaving the band was intended, the story doesn't realize that her behavior during and afterwards is way too overblown, her actions are not relative to the situation. Lord protect a cop that might give her a parking ticket in the future, she will probably enact a Monte-Christo-Level multi-year scheme against the poor sap.

And for the people that excuse this behavior with the argument of "she is sixteen, do you want your teenagers to act rational?" Short answer: Yes. Long Answer: Acting irrational is fine, IF the story recognizes that this is happening and reacts accordingly. The very few scenes of blowback that Shiho gets are in no way in relation to her actual behavior, she gets off far too easy. If a character in a story would run around and shoot random people in the head, and the other cast would chastize them in a stern but amused manner as if they flicked some foreheads at most, that incongruity would take anyone out of a story.

last edited at Oct 22, 2022 12:55PM