I mean I guess you're right but not in the sense of like Twilight love triangle where the main girl is in between two people and doesn't know which one to choose.

I mean, this actually resembles the Twilight triangle pretty close, in the sense that the aloof older love interest runs away and leaves the central character in despair, while the younger love interest tries to fill the gap and gets a bit pushy despite being clearly turned down several times already. It's a surprisingly close parallel when I think about it. Hopefully the similarities end there, lmao.

What, you don't want Risa to fall for Ayaka and Hiroko's newborn science baby? :P

Hahahaha I'm dying XD

I mean I guess you're right but not in the sense of like Twilight love triangle where the main girl is in between two people and doesn't know which one to choose.

People, I understand some things might need to more clear for those of us who are more literal but there is no need for this to escalate so much...

I feel like the characters in this series have realistic motivations and hang ups.

Citation needed

"I'm her boss and she still has her whole life ahead of her. I'm sure she'll find someone better than a woman 13 years her senior."

13 years is a big deal and it's a realistic take that Hiroko thinks about it instead of like, in some silly romcom where the older woman seduces the younger one or something.

Hiroko also knows she isn't ready to have a serious relationship.

"More than anything for all my years of dating I still insist on hiding every bit of it," she knows Ayaka wants a serious relationship and Hiroko is too insecure about her sexuality and constantly in the closet that she doesn't think she's ready for one.
Sure, she can string Ayaka along or she stay single until she figures things out.

I think it's pretty realistic given the circumstances. There's over the top scenarios and gags on one hand and on the other hand realistic issues that gay women face in their day to day lives.

As for Ayaka and Risa, they act a bit like teenagers at times so I'm not sure they're realistic in that sense. Maybe a bit exaggerated.

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 1:11PM

Talk about meta-discussion: All these people indignant that anyone would dare say that Risa is nicer and they don't like Hiroko. I'm not sure what the problem is with this? It's a valid form of discussion of the story. The notion that a reader might like Risa better doesn't mean that's the only way this story should go. The love triangle is still a part of the story, and therefore still worthy of being discussed.

I... don't think it's exactly a love triangle tbh. I think this chapter kind of solidifies Risa is being rejected. People can like whoever they want I just don't think it will happen and people will be disappointed and criticize the story, maybe I'm wrong so I'm sorry. Anyway these are just our opinions. Anyone can say whatever they want which is why I asked people what ideas they have about an Ayaka×Risa endgame.
Also, dare I say I find Risa kind of self righteous? Jk jk Hope she gets her happy ending with someone else :)

It's being set up again for Ayaka to scream the title from the hilltops (exclamation point and all) in a defiant, self assertive way. It's character progress or development through an obstinate continuation of the character's journey. Obstacles are telling her what to do and (I think) she will say "No! I know what I want! And I'll get it! Watch me!" The joke is that Hiroko is the mountain she's heroically (sometimes comically) scaling. She's always been tough and determined right? That's part of what makes her endearing.

Anyway, how was "Call me By Your Name" BTW?

For the record, I'm Ayaka×Hiroko all the way XD I'm just trying to wrap my head around how she could plausibly end up with Risa since people like her so much lol but yeah if the series is 24 chapters I don't really see it. Plus there would have needed to be some subtle foreshadowing that Ayaka might have some interest in Risa which... there isn't. Or there should be more characters like in Nagi no Asukara, where it's a huge love polygon or something. Whether that is detrimental to the story or not I'm not sure... personally I didn't love the change in direction so much.
I don't like the trope of character has unrequited love for their friend since forever and gets rewarded at the end. Since it's a friend it usually doesn't make sense that someone would be friends and never realize they are attracted to this person unless it's the first time they experience attraction or are demisexual or sth along those lines that has to be noted in any case. However I thoroughly enjoy unrequited love where one character is unsure about their feelings or has some commitment or other issues preventing them from reciprocating whether there is a happy ending or not.
Basically I asked because I think Ayaka×Risa is a detriment to the overall story so I wonder how people think it could work or still be fulfilling in some way, other than "Hiroko sucks, Risa is best girl" so therefore she should get the girl.
Call me By Your Name arguably has some problematic aspects but I loved it all the same. I don't think it endorses whatever is happening. It's just a story about a young man falling in love with someone older that is arguably not the best for him. I like it because I've liked older people and at the end of the day you grow up and realize that sometimes the age gap is not the best thing in the world.

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 8:42AM

Okay okay lol, yes I suppose it's a meta discussion. Irl Ayaka should just stay single and start making some friends, she's obviously not ready to be dating :P
Aside from that, the tittle kinda gives it away. If the tittle was "Ayaka is a lesbian!" or something like that... then I guess she could plausibly end up with Risa since the manga would be about Ayaka's journey and not about her liking Hiroko.
Otherwise yeah, maybe it could work with a full circle of Ayaka and Hiroko getting together then breaking up and Ayaka realizing Risa was her true love all along, of Risa is explored more.
It could work like in the acclaimed novel and movie Call me by Your Name where the main characters have an affair and later break up but in the sequels Elio gets together with other people from what I've heard so it's plausible that by the end of the series Hiroko and Ayaka break up and then there's another series where Ayaka dates Risa like "Ayaka is in love with Risa, Ayaka part 2" lol... But that novel I mentioned is much more realistic and serious in tone than this and while this has its moments it's still very romcom in comparison. It could still work though but I think Ayaka and Hiroko need to get together or hook up for it to be a catalyst or sth. And if the series went like that who's to even say Ayaka will end up with Risa? Maybe she gets together and breaks up with her too XD and it becomes a tragic story of how a messed up love life leads to womanizing so we see her become just like Hiroko in the future.
Anyway I still prefer Hiroko lol.
But what are your ideas of how Ayaka could end up with Risa?

Lol idk what is happening in this comment section. Risa sure is popular XD

I think it's a bit complicated for her. Because even here with this "rejection" Hiroko never said she doesn't like Ayaka. She only said she doesn't believe she could make her happy. Ayaka could view that as just another obstacle, to show that she's fine being secret at work or to show Hiroko that she doesn't have to worry as much.

Yeah she could do that, subtly I guess, if possible. But she has been pursuing her quite aggressively and the ball is in Hiroko's court at this point. I just hope that Ayaka can accept the rejection to some extent and Hiroko gives her a signal or something, it would show more character progression than just having Ayaka relentlessly pursue Hiroko.

I think that when Risa hugged her or something and Ayaka said "but I like Hiroko-senpai or sth" it was a pretty straightforward rejection even if being so committed to a person you aren't dating is kinda silly. Ayaka was never straightforwardly rejected until now so can sooort of justify her actions, except the over the top ones when she was drunk and the kabedon lol...
But I really hope Ayaka stops pursuing Hiroko now cause otherwise she will look like an idiot.

A great deal of people will be very angry when this happens because Liz and Hiroko, even tho they're thought-provoking characters, are not popular with the readers. Many will claim that Maki deserves better than Liz and Ayaka deserves better than Hiroko. Well, that might be true, but as Blastaar said, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it." I for one read fiction for the interesting stories rather than for lessons of fictional justice served to the fictionally deserving.

I think love can be messy like that. We don't always fall for the people that deserve us and that's fine. We can learn and grow as long as there isn't a blatant red flag or something. Love triangles where one character is main and the other supporting usually don't work because the main one needs to complete their character arc somehow. I can't think of a way for Hiroko to complete her character arc unless she interacts with Ayaka, which why I think only a break up works. But that's a bit sad for Ayaka isn't it? And Risa would always be the second choice. I don't think it's a good ending.
As for Hiroko yeah, she was in denial because she always had this issue and didn't want to date anyone from work, especially not her juniors. It's not because she thought Ayaka was straight really. That's more of a red herring. When Hiroko tells herself "think like a straight person" it's pretty clear that she's afraid of being outed etc which is her underlying issue. I think it's interesting how the stort subverted the misunderstanding trope and actually gave a reason as to why it happened even if it's outrageous. That's why Hiroko says "of course, she has been saying it this whole time".

This is exactly what I hoped all this was leading to. It's pretty sad but that's what it is. Hiroko doesn't want to date Ayaka whether she knows she loves her or not.
Of course I don't think in Japan you can be out at a company like that lol so it's a bit self explanatory that they wouldn't be out if they dated so idk it felt a bit like a dumb excuse. The age gap thing with her being her superior on top seems way more of an issue and I'm a bit disappointed she didn't mention it to Ayaka but maybe that would've been a bit too devastating. The rejection was very sound though and realistic. I think that's one of the most realistic stories I've read in this regard, except probably Octave and some other I'm forgetting.
I don't know how Hiroko can plausibly change her mind now though. I mean Hiroko doesn't really like Ayaka, does she? She only finds her hot or cute? At least it seems like it. Maybe she'll magically realize she likes her lol... idk
About Risa, it'd be fine to have her and Ayaka end up together as a twist if she had more "screen time" but as it stands she doesn't have a lot of depth to her imho. Sure, she's great but it's like she barely has any flaws and the only thing we know about her is that she's nice and likes Ayaka. I don't think from a storytelling point of view it would make sense because of the character arcs... unlesssss somehow Hiroko and Ayaka dated and broke up, Ayaka realizing Hiroko isn't the one for her and Hiroko realizing she can be proud of who she loves despite the break up? Is that what you all want? Gosh XD idk, I like Hiroko. She's terrible but I can see the appeal lol. She's emotionally repressed and needs to be taken care of lol. Toxic attraction pattern? Yes. That's the best story lol.

Yeah, I'm not gonna defend her but she definitely has internalized homophobia that she needs to get over. I think because Hiroko is attracted to Ayaka she's afraid of being rejected once Ayaka knows she's gay or something. Like it's worse if she knows she's gay and doesn't go for her? That's why she says she can't picture her with someone else I think. Actually it's really immature lol. She has no excuses XD

My point is that Ayaka is chasing a false idol without seeing the shitty person behind it with whom she can actually fall in love.

I agree. Hopefully she will come to love the real Hiroko when she gets to know her though. I think that's what makes the story interesting for me. Even Hiroko doesn't truly know the real Ayaka either, like how Ayaka is actually a geeky film buff (lol idk but could be, there's a pattern with popcorn and films). Would explain her idealized approach to romance XD

I love the serious turn this story is taking. We could say the first volume is exaggerated comedy and then in the second we actually get into the real implications of their actions. I think it's sort of subversive in a way, it's starts out as a sitcom; absurdly provocative girl makes moves on her senior who is completely oblivious to her advances and turns into something quite grounded in how, actually this relationship is very difficult to pull off.
I don't want to get into the semantics of love, really... but don't think anyone who has a crush like that "loves" the person, I think saying she's "in love" is more accurate because it's more than a crush, right? A crush can be very fleeting. "In love" isn't quite it but it can vary a lot from language to language what we translate as "in love", in english it doesn't quite work because it has the word love in it but I think we're talking about something more akin to infatuation. I think it was quite clear from the start that Ayaka doesn't "love" Hiroko and couldn't have really as she doesn't know her but I think her feelings are still valid and genuine. She is socially awkward and becomes interested in Hiroko who is outgoing - opposites attract. I do hope we see some character development from Ayaka, like her actually getting closer to people and understanding Hiroko's character more deeply. Maybe now that she was rejected she will try to be more outgoing and friendly, hopefully.
I totally agree that her way of chasing Hiroko is totally inappropriate lol and obviously Hiroko is quite dense but the thing is she doesn't really want to date Ayaka/ isn't ready to at this point. She is clearly attracted to her but she's but also she's attracted to any pretty girl she sees also lol... Their feelings aren't exactly mutual anyway.
Obviously I'm totally rooting for them. I can't imagine a world where Ayaka falls for Risa lol... But honestly if this was a real life situation I'd tell Ayaka to forget about Hiroko. Maybe Hiroko is lying but so what? Do you want to be with someone who lies about being straight because they are ashamed? Of course this a story so I hope Hiroko comes around and I hope to see how an actual relationship might work despite the age gap.
This is a bit embarrassing but I've been in a similar situation to Ayaka years ago so I relate to her a lot. Thinking someone might be lying because of the homophobic environment, cluelessly pursuing women and not getting the hint. I've done all of it (obviously not as aggressively; Ayaka irl would be harassing Hiroko, no joke) Girls like Ayaka are in for a rude awakening in the real world lol. But at least in the story maybe Ayaka can be happy so that's all I wish for :P

I love your responses! She definitely fumbles the bag while desperately trying to keep work and personal life completely separate. Things might have been a lot easier if Ayaka didn't work there and was just some girl at the bar lol. It should be said that Ayaka cornering her in the office and loudly trying to forcefully out her is not right either. I can't imagine that anyone would cosign that, in a corporate office in Japan, no less. That's a panic inducing moment for sure, and definitely for Hiroko who feels safer in the closet at work.

Thanks!
Yeah definitely a kabedon move would be considered harassment irl and maybe it would have been better to have a calm talk or something. Other than that, about her asking Hiroko not sure if that's wrong per se given that Hiroko dragged Ayaka out of the bar and forcefully asked what she was doing there as well so she kinda had it coming.
But to be sure Ayaka has been super forceful this whole time. She's so over the top. I'm not sure if it's just exaggerated for comedy or if the author actually wants to highlight that's she's inexperienced and awkward. Maybe both? We haven't seen it much but it seems Ayaka was a sort of antisocial nerdy glasses type of girl before so probably she's not that good at communication and comes off too strong. I mean her only tactic was to dress sexy and be as provocative as possible basically. She never asks Hiroko what she likes or what she does in her free time.
She's actually not socially savvy which is probably why she admired Hiroko in the first place. In reality both Hiroko and Ayaka need to grow as characters and that's what makes the pair interesting for me. Ayaka needs to chill a bit and be more casually friendly and Hiroko needs to learn to be more vulnerable.
P.S what bothers me the most about Hiroko is not only lying but going on about how she doesn't have a problem with gay people and stuff... like is she for realz? O_o

last edited at Jun 11, 2023 11:52PM

Called it lol. I hate Hiroko too now, she's such a jerk... not sure how she's gonna redeem herself. I'm so mad I defended her this whole time XD she's an idiot. I don't mind her being "oblivious" but Hiroko's problem is that she's got a bad case of internalized homophobia. Even the girls at the bar can tell she wouldn't accept it even if she knew she's the one Ayaka likes. Idc much for Risa (don't kill me XD) but she's totally right and even Ayaka can see that. "Hiroko-senpai" is not the same as the real Hiroko. The real Hiroko is kinda sleazy as far as I'm concerned. Not sure if we've even seen the real Hiroko. She's so insecure she either has to be in senpai mode or obnoxious flirting mode.
That being said I still love how this is panning out so far. It's this weird mix of over the top and also realistic at the same time in how some people just lie about being gay and hide it like it's the plague. I just really hope she redeems herself cause she sank really low lol...
Like obviously dating Risa doesn't make sense for me cause Ayaka is obviously not attracted to her but not sure I'd like her welcoming Hiro with open arms once she's all regretful and stuff... she should probably dump her for real. A person like that would be a pain to deal with. She'd be obsessed with hiding the relationship. No wonder she's a "womanizer" or whatever. I doubt she can even actually keep a girl lol...

last edited at Jun 11, 2023 5:14PM

Lol, they're in high school in Japan. I'm pretty sure people don't just figure they're gay that fast. I mean I'm not sure, never lived in Japan but I come from a more conservative country and it's not that evident. The first thing you do is deny it to the moon and back lol.
I think Aya kind of gets it but she's afraid to reaaally think about why she cares so much about Mitsuki. And Mitsuki, idk, she's a bit oblivious. She's probably not so in touch with her own emotions due to being closed off for many years.

Aw it was kinda cute at the end. I want a series of them too!

Haha that's totally because it's not so out of place for two female friends to do that even. I mean sure, she's crossing the line a little bit in this specific context but there's no context in which a girl pressing herself like that on a guy could be read as not provocative. With another girl it's just a mild sweet thing, it's not provocative like that haha.

last edited at Jun 10, 2023 9:32AM

Haha Mitsuki wants to take photos of Aya's face. She's in love already.

I'm starting to doubt whether she was actually a womanizer.

My running assumption is that that's just as much of a false reputation as Ayaka's, yeah.

Yeah, she's too dorky. Something's off haha.

The thing is even if Hiroko realizes Ayaka is into her she won't be like "omg let's date!". She's going to back off for sure. And that's what this whole thing is about. Her being in denial is probably the lighthearted part lol.

Oh no... I just realized maybe Hiroko is gonna actually come up with an excuse for why she was at the bar. Please don't do that Hiroko! I'll hate her.

Ok, so I was never annoyed by Hiroko before but did she seriously just tell Ayaka she shouldn't say that she likes women out of the blue? Omg, you like, just asked what she was doing at the bar! Geez. It's kinda cute though, I think Hiroko actually likes Ayaka, aside from her being young and cute. I mean she takes care of her when she's drunk and she's seen how much of a disaster her apartment is XD and she still blushes around her.