Forum › The Great Debate: What Defines Yuri?

Altair Uploader
Reisen%20ds
joined Nov 30, 2016

I started writing a post that got kind of out of hand for the particular thread (Knight Tale, which I can't link because it triggers the spam filter), so I figured I'd turn it into its own. What defines yuri changes over the years as the genre evolves and publishers fade in and out, and we're basically the main place western yuri readers congregate, so it kind of makes sense to discuss what the hell this thing we read is all about. We have scattered discussions about in the threads and it occasionally shows up on /u/, but nothing fruitful ever comes of it.

Consider this a debate, an argument, or better, a conversation attempting to get to the bottom of how to classify yuri, what fits in the genre, and why. Can we include fanfics and shipfics? Do lesbians auto-equal yuri? Does country of origin matter? Is it a romance genre?

I typed it out on a tablet first, so please forgive any errors or lack of articulation. It also doesn't fit the conversation model as I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to yuri. This was a response to the problem of what does and doesn't constitute yuri, so I went with the most concrete approach that also happens to fit my favorite yuri. Coincidence?

Hmmm... I don't know if this is yuri or not.

After reading it, I just thought that it was a classic case of unintentional lady-killer swooning girls all over the place by acting like a prince/knight. With lots of blushing, lots of "I will protect you" and "swoooooon", but it will never go beyond a princess carry and a hug.

I'd call that "fake yuri", or "class S" yuri. A la Maria-sama, where it's implied that it's just a harmless youth thing. The setting of an all-girl school with a system of knighthood doesn't plead for real yuri.

And the heavy ecchi content, with panty-shots, naked boobs and molestation pleads for a hentai hungry male demographic target

I will believe it's yuri if the two MC girls ever kiss or acknowledge mutual romantic feelings (and not the side characters).

Maybe some people who read ahead can give more information.

It looks like it could be yuri, it smells like yuri, but as of now, I don't think it deserves the yuri

That's one way of going about defining yuri. But, I agree with Ano from Kindred Spirits when she says that holding hands is fine yuri. Personally, I feel if a story doesn't have a heavy dose of either drama, angst, or romance, then it's not yuri. But, that was the previous incarnation of yuri from the Tsubomi (and Lililicious!) days. The definition isn't static, with the only worthwhile metric being market forces. As a genre of writing, the literary (manga) market sets the definition via the major serials of the time (yuri hime, rakuen, hirari, etc.). Some definitive or influential works can occur outside the serials, but they're the exceptions rather than the rules. Ship fics, fan work, and non professional work all follow their lead.

For a simplified example, at this point, class S is a historical genre from a different period in yuri determined by an earlier Japanese culture. Those cultural forces aren't around anymore, so you can't have a new class S story. You can have a writer imitate it, a pastiche, the way someone can imitate modernist poetry, but it would not be considered Class S or modernist now.

Personally, I feel Galette will be setting the new tone for yuri as I've heard the current editor In chief of yuri hime may be straying.

This manga definitely has that male gaze, male demographic feel. I particularly agree that it was unnecessary and uncomfortable. But, we've had ecchi yuri and male written yuri before. In this case, the mangaka is probably playing to the editor or the serial. To see if it's yuri, we have to ask where it was originally serialized, where it was published, and if the mangaka was intentionally following established yuri patterns.

Dynasty's yuri tag does not, and should not, follow suite. The tags are in place so a reader can search for what they want to read or know what will be in the story. That particular tag needs to be very broad to have any utility to match reader needs.

Yuri, in the market definition, is also Japanese, and generally romantic. Outside of Japan, yuri often quickly equates to lesbians. Which is to say that if you have lesbians, you have yuri. This style operates almost entirely independently from the original market and should likely have a different classification. Particularly because, generally, yuri is not a subversive genre and operates almost independently of feminism/feminist criticism, queer criticism, and LGBT concerns/history, this breakdown and massive redefinition of the genre on a country by country or region by region basis outside of Japan presents a ton of classification problems.

For example, could Allison Bechdel's Fun Home be considered yuri? It would meet most non market based definitions. It's also a fucking masterpiece.

For me, the main draw to yuri is the romance. I love the cliche, intense emotion, and standard story lines. When you read pop fiction, you're there to get what you want and know, generally with slight variation. If I wanted something new, I would read something experimental like House of Leaves or Infinite Jest. Though, there are some phenomenal mangaka, like Takemiya Jin, that can wed genre conventions with authentic experience (Read the first chapter of Fragments of Love and watch how it intentionality shatters previous yuri conventions while introducing queer life with a mastery of the genre itself) (though morinaga and morishima say they're doing the same.), most manga that engages the LGBT community is outside of yuri like honey and honey, lesbian motherhood, that one, etc.

to;dr Empower yourself and read some damn feminist and queer theory.

last edited at Mar 23, 2017 12:58PM

LumberingCrane
Djltnk3ucaamfms
joined Apr 12, 2016

Meh, I just take the painfully simple route of defining all genuine female homosexual relationships in fiction as yuri. I personally don't feel the need to make a distinction between west or east or certain tropes inherent in the genre in Japan versus someplace else, although I understand why others would do that.

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

I define yuri, I thought everyone knew that.

OriginalGengar
Kira%202
joined Nov 29, 2014

That's a very long way of saying "women being into women"

Johanliebert
joined Dec 15, 2015

It's funny because even among yuri artists the notion of yuri looks blurred. Tamamusi, for example, and according to this afterword seems to nuance lesbian and yuri; like a yuri would be a moe depiction of sapphism ? An archetype of lesbian story with some codes rather than the simple love between women ?

For all I care, I'm happy with calling yuri works featuring any love or sexual attraction / relations between women as the main part of the plot. And honestly, yuri sounds better than "lesbianism" or "lesbian story" in my opinion. Can't say which one is the best bewteen sapphism and yuri though, the latter definitely being moe-er ;)

Nishiki%20gosu%20rori%20dark%20hair%20sm
joined Jan 11, 2015

I've never quite seen the lesbianism + feminism relation, tbh. In my eyes, physical and emotional attraction to a certain gender seem to have very little to do with political and social values. If a woman is "attracted" to other women specifically because of "equal rights" or "the patriarchy", it sounds a bit like chuunibyou to me... =A=

A2bcf11834a1918b3f09b4219b2a099f_r
joined Aug 16, 2014

Girls holding hands while blushing and long pretty eyelashes. That's what yuri's all about.

Yuu
joined Mar 28, 2015

For me, the essence of a yuri story is romance between girls and they have to be the MCs and the romance the center of the story at least. Wherever it's published.

Prunus Girl is not yuri for example. There's a lesbian sidecouple, which is nice, but this manga is not about romance between girls. Hourou Musuko is not yuri, because it's not about romance. It's about gender identity.

Takemiya Jin's manga are yuri. Morishima, Morinaga, Canno, Nakatani write yuri stories too.

Knight Tale doesn't seem to have any romance to speak of, from what I have read. It seems to be a pretext to show girls fighting and ending up in compromising positions and ahegao faces.

But maybe later there is more, who knows, so I will wait to see some romance there.

But this is my opinion, and none is forced to agree with it.

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

I've never quite seen the lesbianism + feminism relation, tbh. In my eyes, physical and emotional attraction to a certain gender seem to have very little to do with political and social values. If a woman is "attracted" to other women specifically because of "equal rights" or "the patriarchy", it sounds a bit like chuunibyou to me... =A=

You've never heard of Lesbian Separatism or Political Lesbianism? There's actually quite a long history of connection between feminism and lesbianism, but that's a bit off the direct topic of the definition of yuri so probably not worth getting into here.

12343
joined Jan 8, 2016

I define yuri, I thought everyone knew that.

Johanliebert
joined Dec 15, 2015

I've never quite seen the lesbianism + feminism relation, tbh. In my eyes, physical and emotional attraction to a certain gender seem to have very little to do with political and social values. If a woman is "attracted" to other women specifically because of "equal rights" or "the patriarchy", it sounds a bit like chuunibyou to me... =A=

You've never heard of Lesbian Separatism or Political Lesbianism? There's actually quite a long history of connection between feminism and lesbianism, but that's a bit off the direct topic of the definition of yuri so probably not worth getting into here.

That moment when moderators themselves start an off-topic and passably interesting debate.

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

Gonna add that for me, whether girl/girl doujinshi is subversive queer literature or not is immaterial to whether it's yuri or not. There's fluffy lesbian romance in the west too, whose only subversiveness is that it's got women dating women, that would still easily qualify so I think that angle doesn't apply.

Nishiki%20gosu%20rori%20dark%20hair%20sm
joined Jan 11, 2015

@Nez
I haven't heard of either, and something tells me I'm probably better off that way. =A=

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

@Nez
I haven't heard of either, and something tells me I'm probably better off that way. =A=

Well, I'm not into either so not really the best person to mount a defence on the subject.

Nishiki%20gosu%20rori%20dark%20hair%20sm
joined Jan 11, 2015

More strictly on topic, I generally don't mind loose definitions of yuri when it comes to like, gayness level. I'd be fine with labelling something like Kin'iro Mosaic as yuri. The issue I have, is when it comes to stuff like this.

Hmm, this manga called Kodomo no Jikan is the most sold manga is the Girls Love section. I should probably check that out!

016
joined Mar 21, 2017

I think this is all why i prefer the term Girls Love. Dynasty is generally pretty good with tagging but outside of it so many things get the yuri tag that i personally just can't see as being yuri.

last edited at Mar 23, 2017 3:24PM

Best Mangaka Rohan
25dfc3e30a88f17394a8d2037430b766
joined Dec 13, 2016

I define yuri, I thought everyone knew that.

http://i.imgur.com/9LQYnKd.jpg

Hahaha, i love this meme!

last edited at Mar 23, 2017 3:20PM by Nezchan

Johanliebert
joined Dec 15, 2015

Throwing fuel on the fire, what about the difference between shoujo ai and yuri, why doesn't the first exist on Dynasty ? Is there even a nuance between the two to begin with ?

A2bcf11834a1918b3f09b4219b2a099f_r
joined Aug 16, 2014

[...] what about the difference between shoujo ai and yuri

It was taking a while for it to come to this again. I was so not looking forward to it.

Nevri Uploader
Rosmontis
Nevrilicious Scans
joined Jun 5, 2015

Utoptia posted:

Throwing fuel on the fire, what about the difference between shoujo ai and yuri, why doesn't the first exist on Dynasty ? Is there even a nuance between the two to begin with ?

Because shoujo ai doesn't exit in general. It is american's made up term which doesn't make sense.

%23spartasgirl
joined Jul 14, 2016

I think this is all why i prefer the term Girls Love. Dynasty is generally pretty good with tagging but outside of it so many things get the yuri tag that i personally just can't see as being yuri.

Yea, I've seen a lot of Yuri tags on other stuff that clearly isn't. While I suppose female bisexual relationships could be tagged as Yuri, it seems to be more prevalent in hentai where 2 girls just happen to kiss/fuck around while having sex with a guy. Usually, though not always, its not even the potential for a Poly-type relationship.

Kururi
joined Aug 25, 2015

My personal definition is that yuri is entertainment and lesbian is political view. Of course you can have political views in yuri, but it's not the main point. That Manga about lesbian motherhood for example, it's not made by a mangaka, but by an activist. So while I do read both kinds, the reasons for doing so are different.

But the main problem here is that yuri genre doesn't exist. Yuri is not a genre, it's a demographic. Just like shoujo, shounen, seinen and josei aren't genres. That's why they still have a main genre beside the demographic.
Yuri is pretty much "hey, you like girls loving girls? How about reading these stories? You might like them.".

016
joined Mar 21, 2017

I think this is all why i prefer the term Girls Love. Dynasty is generally pretty good with tagging but outside of it so many things get the yuri tag that i personally just can't see as being yuri.

Yea, I've seen a lot of Yuri tags on other stuff that clearly isn't. While I suppose female bisexual relationships could be tagged as Yuri, it seems to be more prevalent in hentai where 2 girls just happen to kiss/fuck around while having sex with a guy. Usually, though not always, its not even the potential for a Poly-type relationship.

Female bisexual relations count if they are an actual relationship rather than just there for a males entertanment.
I'm all for more queer female stories written by either queer women or those with an actual understanding of the "culture" to be honest which is another reason i shy away from the yuri label. I notice there is a lot of discussion on the net about this already.

Nevri Uploader
Rosmontis
Nevrilicious Scans
joined Jun 5, 2015

Es0teric posted:

or those with an actual understanding of the "culture"

016
joined Mar 21, 2017

Es0teric posted:

or those with an actual understanding of the "culture"

I put that in quotations as i don't actually know if that was the correct term to use. Just realised how bad that was in English sorry.

last edited at Mar 23, 2017 4:58PM

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