I'm still shocked at the people somehow blaming Shouko for Satou murdering her. You people are fucking insane. If we ever meet in person, remind me to run the fuck away, or preemptively call the police.

Satou warned her, therefore it was her own fault. We all know what happens to the curious cat ...

Try running that by the police. "Officer, I told her to stop asking about the child I kidnapped, but she just didn't listen, so I was forced to kill her. It was a clear case of self-defense." Fucking psychos, the lot of you.

She didn't kidnap her though.

Yes, she did. Just because Shio isn't fighting to get away or even necessarily wants to get away, Shio is still like 4 years old. She doesn't understand what is going on. In fact Satou is very insistent on Shio staying indoors for a variety of reasons, chief among them is jealousy not wanting to share Shio with the world.

For all intents and purposes, Satou is a kidnapper.

It kind of amuses me how much people are looking for a way to justify Satou's actions. Really, none of it is justifiable. She's messed up, she has a bad upbringing and it really messed up her mind. I'd say she was always just a sociopath but it's actually pretty clear she's starting to have strong emotions about what she's doing. That's the end of it. Everything she is doing does not "make sense'. She's crazy, and it's sad. I just hope this little story doesn't end with Shio dying.

She took her from the street, which means she didn't actually kidnap her (kidnap, verb: abduct (someone) and hold them captive. Satou is doing no such thing).
The reason she doesn't tell the authorities are because they would take Shio back to her mother (who left her out there in the first place). Then she doesn't go further because she's scared of what might happen to Shio. These are minor reasons, mostly she's doing them for personal reasons, but they are still there.
I'm not saying she's a good person, but if you just write her off as crazy without considering any of the other details that the series presents, you're not going to get the entirety of the series.
Also, if Shio told her that she wanted to see her mum and/or brother again, Satou would let her do it (after Shio begs hard enough), because she wants Shio to be happy.

She took her from the street, which means she didn't actually kidnap her (kidnap, verb: abduct (someone) and hold them captive. Satou is doing no such thing).
The reason she doesn't tell the authorities are because they would take Shio back to her mother (who left her out there in the first place). Then she doesn't go further because she's scared of what might happen to Shio. These are minor reasons, mostly she's doing them for personal reasons, but they are still there.
I'm not saying she's a good person, but if you just write her off as crazy without considering any of the other details that the series presents, you're not going to get the entirety of the series.
Also, if Shio told her that she wanted to see her mum and/or brother again, Satou would let her do it (after Shio begs hard enough), because she wants Shio to be happy.

Most of that is irrelevant. You're not allowed to just take a kid, willing or not, into your house and house them there for an indeterminate amount of time. Especially someone under 5 years old, and this goes for a minor of any age in Japan. Young children are especially susceptible here. They do not have the mental capacity to decide what is right for them. You will get charged with kidnapping regardless of the opinions of the child. This is especially murky in Satou's case because of the nature of Shio's mental state. She's a child in a precarious situation and some "good Samaritan" takes her in and showers her with the "love" she desires. It's all kinds of messed up.

The reason she doesn't tell the authorities has nothing to do with her being reunited with the mother being a bad thing -- it's because she doesn't want to give her up. Shio is her "soul mate' and nothing is going to stand in the way of them being together. I mean she's pretty open about this fact numerous times. That's basically what this whole story is about. She murdered people to stay together.

You say she'd let her see her parents and brother again (whom I can only assume Shio has actually forgotten at this point due to the trauma of her past) but I have my doubts. Considering the lengths she's going to throw her brother and others off the scent, down to outright murder. I do not believe Satou would be able to cope with letting her go.

Honestly, my heart breaks for Satou. She finally finds something she can care about and has effectively fallen off the deep end in an attempt to keep it hers. It doesn't really detract from the seriously depraved path she is treading in this futile effort.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 4:34PM

She took her from the street, which means she didn't actually kidnap her (kidnap, verb: abduct (someone) and hold them captive. Satou is doing no such thing).

Taking in and raising a child when you are not their legal guardian is a crime. It might not be legally considered kidnapping if the child willingly goes with you, but it's still child abduction, and is definitely illegal in basically every country, and under international law as well. Adoption is a strictly regulated process of transferring legal guardianship. If you take in a child without going through that process, you're committing a crime.

last edited at Nov 13, 2018 8:25PM

She took her from the street, which means she didn't actually kidnap her (kidnap, verb: abduct (someone) and hold them captive. Satou is doing no such thing).

Taking in and raising a child when you are not their legal guardian is a crime. It might not be legally considered kidnapping if the child willingly goes with you, but it's still child abduction, and is definitely illegal in basically every country, and under international law as well. Adoption is a strictly regulated process of transferring legal guardianship. If you take in a child without going through that process, you're committing a crime.

I’m hoping that commenters here are just so deep into this weirdly compelling story about a weird situation involving a whole fictional world full of weirdos that they temporarily forget what they actually know perfectly well in the real world:

If you find a small human being in the street, you don’t get to keep it. Full stop.

Circumstances, situations, personalities—none of that matters. You make sure the little human is safe, then you call the authorities.

But you all knew that.

Wait i thought the anime went past this and finished! Is the manga still ongoing?

hey yall i know you're having a heated debate or whatever but can mangas have different endings than the anime because i'm still pulling for them to cruise on out of japan and live a happy but unethical life somewhere in the bahamas

Huh? What are you talking about. That's not what happened. Shouko didn't lead anyone anywhere. Due to things she happened to observe, she had a (correct) suspicion that Satou had Shio. Instead of calling the police, she gave her friend the benefit of the doubt and went to go see for herself. When she saw Shio, she did the reasonable thing of sending a picture of Shio to her brother, who until then didn't even know if his sister was alive. Knowing what she knew, and being in the situation she was in, sending that picture was simply the only ethical thing to do. She didn't tell him where Shio was, she just sent him proof that the sister he had been searching for was alive. Satou then murdered her. That's where we are now.

Also, whatever you think about how Satou acquired Shio, legally she's a kidnapper. You can't just take abandoned children into your home and keep them without alerting the authorities, especially when you know for a fact that their family is looking for them. That's child abduction.

Shouko jumped to some conclusions, but every assumption she made was proven correct by subsequent events. She thought Satou abducted Shio. She was right. She thought she needed to take a picture of Shio and send it to Asahi immediately since she might not have a chance later. She was right. Her only incorrect assumptions were that Satou would listen to her, and that Satou would let her leave.

Edit: and don't try to say that Shouko is somehow caused her own death by taking the picture. Satou would have killed anyone who saw her and Shio together. Regardless of whether she took that picture or not, her fate was sealed when she let herself be seen by Satou.

You are making an angel out of Shoko now. The whole reason that she took Shio picture and sent it to Asahi, was to prove that she has a lead toward Shio. Most likely to get him to come back to her. Do you seriously think that if she was not killed, she won't give Satou's address to Asahi?

From an ethical and moral POV, What Shouko did was NOT a reasonable thing to do at all. If Shouko really wanted to help, she should have confronted Satou, telling her what she know, asking about the situation with Shio. From there on, she will know that Shio's mom already disbanded her and (Note!!) Shio has no recollection of her older brother. Whether she believe Shio or not in that situation, adding in the fact that Asahi has been homeless in the street and mentally unstable, her ethical option then will be limited down to a) utilitarian approach, let Shio staying with Satou because they are happier that way, then make it up to Asahi, or b) the deontology approach: notice the authority to take Shio away from both her mother, brother and Satou and send her to a foster care.

You accuse Satou of child abduction. Then you promote child abuse in the same sentence by proposing to send Shio back to her abusive mother (regardless of her reasoning) and her homeless brother. Conflicted much?

Satou would have killed anyone who saw her and Shio together? Why her aunt still alive then? Mitsuboshi? Why didn't she just kill Shouko right away, and instead of trying to get her to unlock her phone? If Shouko didn't act suspicious, take the picture and refuse to show who she sent it to, she would have lived. Satou KNEW that it's harder to kill someone than to manipulate them. That's the central of her yandere archetype

last edited at Nov 14, 2018 7:11AM

hey yall i know you're having a heated debate or whatever but can mangas have different endings than the anime because i'm still pulling for them to cruise on out of japan and live a happy but unethical life somewhere in the bahamas

Well I could see a couple of other happy endings for them. For example Satou having amnesia, hence acquit her from her crime.

Or Satou try to save Shio and is seriously handicapped to atone for her sins, and reversed her role with Shio, where Satou spent the rest of her life being trapped inside an apartment while Shio going out to work to provide for them.

My favorite ending will be both of them die, but then we see Satou waking up in an alternative universe, where no one is crazy. The aunt, the teacher, the restaurant owner and the onii-san artist are productive members of society. Mitsuboshi and Shouko are her class mate. Suu is her kouhai. Asahi is the transferred student, and Shio move in next door to Satou's apartment

last edited at Nov 14, 2018 7:23AM

hey yall i know you're having a heated debate or whatever but can mangas have different endings than the anime because i'm still pulling for them to cruise on out of japan and live a happy but unethical life somewhere in the bahamas

Well I could see a couple of other happy endings for them. For example Satou having amnesia, hence acquit her from her crime.

Or Satou try to save Shio and is seriously handicapped to atone for her sins, and reversed her role with Shio, where Satou spent the rest of her life being trapped inside an apartment while Shio going out to work to provide for them.

My favorite ending will be both of them die, but then we see Satou waking up in an alternative universe, where no one is crazy. The aunt, the teacher, the restaurant owner and the onii-san artist are productive members of society. Mitsuboshi and Shouko are her class mate. Suu is her kouhai. Asahi is the transferred student, and Shio move in next door to Satou's apartment

this some good shit. i especially like

Or Satou try to save Shio and is seriously handicapped to atone for her sins, and reversed her role with Shio, where Satou spent the rest of her life being trapped inside an apartment while Shio going out to work to provide for them.

i would have been satisfied with the anime ending if they both died, but the fact that shio has to live on tore my heart to pieces and made me BITTER

She took her from the street, which means she didn't actually kidnap her (kidnap, verb: abduct (someone) and hold them captive. Satou is doing no such thing).

Taking in and raising a child when you are not their legal guardian is a crime. It might not be legally considered kidnapping if the child willingly goes with you, but it's still child abduction, and is definitely illegal in basically every country, and under international law as well. Adoption is a strictly regulated process of transferring legal guardianship. If you take in a child without going through that process, you're committing a crime.

Shio had no legal guardian anymore, she was completely abandoned. Taking someone that has no legal guardians anymore isn't a crime. And Satou never intended to adopt her anyway, no matter if the viewer likes it or not, Satou sees Shio as her lover.

Shio had no legal guardian anymore, she was completely abandoned. Taking someone that has no legal guardians anymore isn't a crime. And Satou never intended to adopt her anyway, no matter if the viewer likes it or not, Satou sees Shio as her lover.

That's not how "legal guardian" is defined. You cannot legally absolve yourself of your responsibilities to your children just by leaving them on the street anymore than you can legally adopt a child just by finding them on the street. Shio's legal guardian is still her mother. Even if her mother died, a relative would become her legal guardian, or she would become a ward of the state. She wouldn't simply exist in a state of limbo without any legal guardian.

Likewise, it doesn't matter what Satou thinks about Shio or what her motives were. Her actions constitute child abduction under the law.

last edited at Nov 15, 2018 7:04PM

You are making an angel out of Shoko now. The whole reason that she took Shio picture and sent it to Asahi, was to prove that she has a lead toward Shio. Most likely to get him to come back to her. Do you seriously think that if she was not killed, she won't give Satou's address to Asahi?

Maybe. Shio was abducted and kept imprisoned in an apartment. Satou was sending information to her relatives to let them know she was alive. That's just the right thing to do.

You accuse Satou of child abduction. Then you promote child abuse in the same sentence by proposing to send Shio back to her abusive mother (regardless of her reasoning) and her homeless brother. Conflicted much?

Satou committed child abduction. That's simply a fact according to Japanese law. Obviously her mother is abusive and unfit to care for Shio, but that doesn't mean she's suddenly up for grabs. An no, I'm not "promoting child abuse" nor proposing anything. When did I say I thought Shio should go back to her mother? I just said that Asahi has a right to know that his sister is alive.

Satou would have killed anyone who saw her and Shio together? Why her aunt still alive then? Mitsuboshi? Why didn't she just kill Shouko right away, and instead of trying to get her to unlock her phone? If Shouko didn't act suspicious, take the picture and refuse to show who she sent it to, she would have lived. Satou KNEW that it's harder to kill someone than to manipulate them. That's the central of her yandere archetype

She only went to her aunt out of desperation. She only let Mitsuboshi live because she knew she could manipulate him. He wasn't a threat to her. He's completely fucking insane to the extent that know one would trust him, plus he doesn't know where she lives. Neither of those two seemed particularly interested in reporting Satou to the police, or getting her back to her family. Shouko is different, and she now knows where Satou lives. She was dead as soon as she walked to that apartment, whether or not she took that picture.

Obviously Satou would've preferred to get the phone unlocked so she could see who she sent the picture to. Imagine the alternative, if Shouko hadn't taken the picture. She's in Satou's apartment, alone. Did anyone else know she was coming here? Did she tell anyone about her suspicions? If she just suddenly disappeared, would anyone ever come to suspect Satou?

With the picture, Satou's faced with a difficult choice: let Shouko live and potentially face arrest and capture immediately, or kill her and buy a few days to pack up and leave.
Without, Satou's choice is much easier: let Shouko live and potentially face arrest and capture immediately, or kill her and make the problem completely disappear.

See? That picture was probably the only reason she lived as long as she did. As evidenced by Satou's line right before she kills Shouko, she had already decided she would never trust Shouko again long before she ever took that picture.

last edited at Nov 15, 2018 7:46PM

Maybe. Shio was abducted and kept imprisoned in an apartment. Satou was sending information to her relatives to let them know she was alive. That's just the right thing to do.

Shouko doesn't know that Shio has been abducted nor does she know she's imprisoned. And no, it's not the right thing to do to blindly interfere in a situation that she knows full well she doesn't properly understand.

See? That picture was probably the only reason she lived as long as she did. As evidenced by Satou's line right before she kills Shouko, she had already decided she would never trust Shouko again long before she ever took that picture.

Well you say that, but if Shouko hadn't taken the picture and had been a lot calmer, more sympathetic, less judgemental and y'know, generally more trustworthy, I don't think it would have happened. Satou wanted to be able to trust her.

Shouko doesn't know that Shio has been abducted nor does she know she's imprisoned. And no, it's not the right thing to do to blindly interfere in a situation that she knows full well she doesn't properly understand.

Of course she knows. Shio's family is looking for her. There are posters all over town. Asahi told her Shio was missing. Any reasonable person seeing Shio alive would assume she had been abducted. And the assumption was proven correct.

Well you say that, but if Shouko hadn't taken the picture and had been a lot calmer, more sympathetic, less judgemental and y'know, generally more trustworthy, I don't think it would have happened. Satou wanted to be able to trust her.

Satou herself says that she had already decided not to trust Shouko, since introducing her to her aunt. Now you're just ignoring the text and making up your own story to blame Satou's behavior on Shouko.

All Satou cares about is protecting her life with Shio. From that perspective, killing Shouko was the correct move. Leaving her alive would be too much of a risk. However, it was morally repugnant. All of the other things she did were, while awful, somewhat justifiable. The artist she killed was in the process of strangling Shio. The guys she killed/mutilated in the park were violent thugs. All the people she's lied to and manipulated were really messed up, and sort of deserved what she did to them (sometimes they even deserved much worse).

The moment she kills Shouko is the moment when her obsession leads her to do something truly evil. The entire point of this chapter was to show Satou finally crossing the line.

schuyguy posted:

Satou herself says that she had already decided not to trust Shouko, since introducing her to her aunt. Now you're just ignoring the text and making up your own story to blame Satou's behavior on Shouko.

Actually the one that's ignoring things is you. You're hiding behind the text and ignoring all the context as well as Sato's actions regarding her desire to trust Shoko.

Actually the one that's ignoring things is you. You're hiding behind the text and ignoring all the context as well as Sato's actions regarding her desire to trust Shoko.

Well, whatever, enjoy your fanfic.

Honestly though schuyguy, let's take a step back here, I think you are taking too biased position here.

Problem: you are right now using Satou's 'abduction' to justify everything Shouko do.

If you want to do it by the law, then fine. Firstly, do we know we know whether Shio's mom still have custody of Shio, especially after she abandoned her on the street? Is Asahi a legal guardian of Shio? If not, and if Shouko's goal was to REUNITE Shio to her family (which obviously she was doing since she claimed herself that she was not going to the police). Then not only Shouko was committing stalking, but if Asahi successfully took Shio back in this situation, then Shouko was assisting in child abduction.

Yes, Asahi's act trying to get Shio back is an act of child abduction, because once again, he was not (old enough either way to be) a legal guardian of Shio. Maybe that's why he didn't want the police's involvement in the first place. Shio's mom has also by law no longer can retain custody over Shio (after disbanding Shio and committing murder). In fact, Asahi also may face charge of aiding her mother crime because he didn't report her, which will surrender him any rights over taking care of Shio (assume he is old enough).

Hence the only legal thing Shouko could do then was immediately reporting to the police. Which she didn't do. Regardless whatever Satou did, regardless whether Shouko know about it or not, two wrong didn't make one right, and Shouko right then also was taking part in a child abduction scheme.

Now ask yourself, why are you approving one child abduction, and disapproving another child abduction here?

PS: on whether Satou will kill Shouko regardless, once again it contradicted Satou's manipulative character. We will discuss on it, once you concede the above point first

last edited at Nov 18, 2018 8:34AM

Shio's mom has also by law no longer can retain custody over Shio (after disbanding Shio and committing murder).

Assumes facts not in evidence, as they say.

You're making a mishmash of half-legalistic/half-ethical arguments here--terms like "child abduction," "stalking," etc., have specific legal definitions and their potential application to the circumstances of this case would all need to be determined in court, and a great deal would hinge on the intent of the various actors.

I am quite sure that any court in the world would look very differently at:

• Person finds child on street, keeps child hidden away for eventual marriage.
• Person attempts to find lost sibling.

I am quite sure that any court in the world would look very differently at:

• Person finds child on street, keeps child hidden away for eventual marriage.
• Person attempts to find lost sibling.

You know the one who taught and did Shio's wedding vow with originally WAS Asahi, don't you?

"Oh, no, Asahi was just playing house. But Satou was definitely trying to creepily wed a child for real!!"

Hey I can twist words to support my point too:
* Person finds disbanded child on street, house her
* Person trying to force the abandoned sibling back to their abusive family so he can incestuously marry her later

last edited at Nov 22, 2018 12:28AM

I love it when people try to apply logic where there is none.
But I understand the desire to engage in a discussion about it, however I'll just be sitting in this corner enjoying this manga for it fucked upness

is this how psychopaths love each other

is this how psychopaths love each other

You mean this thread? No, this is just flirting.

I dunno, on reflection, the idea of a sibling being prosecuted for "child abduction" by recovering a lost sibling from a homicidal kidnapper is very imaginative, and just the sort of thing that would happen in the bizarre storyworld of this series.

It's a totally demented imaginative idea when applied to the real world, to be sure, but its loopy parody of logic fits the story very well.

makes me wonder wtf i shoudl do if i ever met a crazy bitch like that

even jesus wont be able to help

last edited at Dec 28, 2018 3:14PM by

makes me wonder wtf i shoudl do if i ever met a crazy bitch like that

even jesus wont be able to help

Run.