More over, I don't know why you would think I'm mad about anything. You would have no reason to assume that unless you were looking for an excuse to dismiss my points without a solid reason why.

I doubt they were looking for any excuse to dismiss your points without a solid reason why. I think the impression you made on them felt overly aggressive because (to them) you seemed to attack their views on the manga in an unnecessarily harsh manner while blatantly telling them they're wrong and you're right, without any margin of error. From one side, your arguments are perceived as analytical, while from another side, they sound like absolute shut-downs with no room for debate.

You mean the relationship she as no reason to think is anything other than explanation? You're confusing knowledge readers have with the knowledge the characters have of each other. If you want further elaboration why you're wrong just go back and re read the thread because nothing you have said is new in comparison to the people before you.

I actually thought she meant to use the "romantic relationship" as a reason to reject confessions, while being able to have a friend to hang out with in Miu.

I also don't understand why you don't like having lots of confessions for Fujiwara. Please elaborate.

On principle I hate any and all harems, implied or otherwise. Because they are nothing more than cop out story telling devices used to forcibly progress the plot with no real justification.

Are harems that uncommon in real life? My impression of Japanese culture is limited to what I see in fiction and media and a few non-fiction sources, but I thought they were influenced by reality to some extent. Which lead to harems being used in stories. If not, and harems are really more wishful-thinking, then it'd be quite nice to see less of them.

Receiving confessions - whether serious or out of admiration - would happen regularly for popular people, and doesn't seem to imply harems on their own. Even only among girls, it seems to happen enough for the Japanese people to deem it a normal part of adolescence.

Not to mention the whole "everybody is gay point. It is silly and unrealistic to assume so many gay people would be in one place at one time.

I'm a little confused about when this was pointed out.

EDIT: My apologies. I'd originally meant to ask when the everybody is gay point had been laid out, but I ended up asking something like the opposite.

There's a stereotype that girls' schools tend to have meaningless relationships between one another as an experimental kind of thing

This is a cliché, not a stereotype. Very big difference. But, that's besides the point you're trying to make. And as it's already been noted that it's stupid to think she could pick of on Miu's vague singles of being upset around those other girls but not be be able to tell if the people confessing to her are serious.

By cliché, meaning in stories? I thought it was a real stereotype too, and not only because of manga.

I didn't see Miu's signals of being upset as vague, but maybe that's just me. Also, I thought Fujiwara might have realized that letting the club members tag along on their date may not be the best way to simulate one, but again, probably only what I read into it.

There are cases where the girls are using the subject of their love/admiration as a replacement for a man, but they themselves may not have realized this yet. Often, the intense admiration for an idol can also be confused for love. Experimentation is definitely a thing. It complicates matters when some of the girls are truly in love, but for various reasons restrain themselves from emotional or otherwise telling displays of heartbreak when they are rejected, assuming they confess at all. Fujiwara seems to have a certain preconception of such confessions - namely that they are more likely to happen at girls' schools - and although she admits that they seem serious, she still has doubts. There has been little to no detail about how these confessions unfolded, so it's difficult to gauge how insensitive/clueless she may possibly be regarding these matters.

She'd have to be thinking like this. "Oh this girl came up to me all teary eyed, confessed. I rejected her and she left crying... Eeeeh? She must have been just joshing with me; back to volleyball practice".

If that can't be taken seriously no confession can.

When/where was the exposition on this?

Honestly, it seems to me like you're purposely trying to rile everyone up.

Again, you have no reason to think other than you want to dismiss my points with no solid evidence. Just because I don't blindly gush over everything and anything that's tagged as "yuri" does not mean I'm trying to antagonize people.

Humans have varying levels of sensitivity when it comes to blunt statements like those you've made, especially in environments like the internet where lack of other visual and auditory cues may contribute to a misleading impression. I think they felt you were forcing your theories and views on others in a less than diplomatic manner. Your criticism of one (perhaps a non-native Anglophone) for their English may have appeared unforgiving of the difficulty of discussion in a foreign language. I know there are other non-Anglophones who are also similarly unforgiving of those who don't master English, though. In addition, there are native Anglophones whose English is much worse than ESL graduates, so I suppose some struggle with language more than others. There was some confusion, but I mostly understood what they were trying to convey.

So I don't think the things that you're citing are actually contradictions.

Key word here being "think". What you personally think is not really relevant to anything. And even if that was the only contradiction, you'd be wrong. Because there are other contradictions that have been pointed out in this very thread.

I think he was stating the facts as he perceived them, but did not express it in as direct or absolute a manner. He may be allowing room for debate since he did not imply his perception of the facts was the only truth.

do you know ANYTHING about autism?

I can't exactly respond to any of these points because you did not pick up on the fact the term "autism" was being used euphemistically, not literally. Everyone else noticed that though. Kind of another reason why anything you think or say does not hold any validity.

That last sentence in particular is an example of why some would be misled to thinking you carry a hostile and/or angry attitude with your comments. It can be interpreted as rational and practical, but also can be seen as provocative and disparaging, especially if insinuation of one's stupidity is detected.

/rambling
Good-night.

last edited at Dec 30, 2013 10:57AM

Wow... 'dat length.

they sound like absolute shut-downs with no room for debate.

Because there isn't. I'm not arguing subjective aspects. I'm reiterating the events of the story in a more simplified manner.

I actually thought she meant to use the "romantic relationship" as a reason to reject confessions,

You have it backwards. Fujiwara has no reason to think Miu is not just using her. Thus no reason for her to consider them friends. If she can't pick up on if the girls confessing to her are serious or not she should also not have the ability to see that Miu is doing more than just using her.

Are harems that uncommon in real life?

Yes, they are. And it is a vastly over used cliché. That's also not what I said was unrealistic, even though they are. I said harems force plot progression and story development.

and doesn't seem to imply harems on their own

I'm not sure you understand what I harem is in the Japanese mediums. I harem is when three or more people hold romantic feelings for a single person. And it is clearly well past that both with characters who get panel time, and back ground implied characters.

the Japanese people to deem it a normal part of adolescence.

No they don't. It's sheer wish fulfillment fantasies.

I'm a little confused about when this was pointed out.

Are you serious? Did you even read the whole thread? I don't think this could be any more clear. I have said in prior posts that all girls schools are not jam packed with lesbians. I am just clarifying that further here by also pointing out it is unrealistic.

By cliché, meaning in stories? I thought it was a real stereotype too, and not only because of manga.

Google the differance, this post is to long as is.

I didn't see Miu's signals of being upset as vague, but maybe that's just me.

As I have told other people. you are confusing knowledge you have as a read with the knowledge the characters have of each other.

There are cases where the girls are using the subject of their love/admiration as a replacement for a man [...]

Do you really think anything you said here is not common knowledge for anyone who reads yuri, or even people who don't? I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make.

Experimentation is definitely a thing.

No one said it wasn't. But this does not help justify any point because again it is not realistic for there to be so many of this type of person in a single place at one time. You as basing your whole argument of clichés in the anime/manga medium.

Fujiwara seems to have a certain preconception of such confessions

This can only really go one way. She has experience/knowledge of the girls not being serious about relationships in an all girls school . meaning she herself was in a relationship with someone before and they left for various reasons. And in this case she would know that the feelings could be serious because her's would have been. This can also be applied to someone she knew closely, it does not actually have to be her. She would have the experience/knowledge either way.

That "preconception" has no basses because that only way she could gain it would also disprove it.

When/where was the exposition on this?

There are only three basic ways a confession can go. Teary eyed/crying, casual, and jokingly. If we are to take the stories word for it that confession happen on a regular bases then "teary eyed/crying" must have occurred, and she would have no reason to think they are not serious. And based on the last few pages of chapter two we already see a girl crying over Fujiwara. So we can only speculate it has happened before.

Humans have varying levels of sensitivity

That "varying" level is really only governed by one thing; how much it conflicts with their personal opinion of something. If they like something and someone else points out flaws in it they automatically perceive it as being mad. If you look that the people post histories you can find many, many examples of this.

I think they felt you were forcing your theories and views on others in a less than diplomatic manner

Probably because I was. These are not subjective matters we are discussing.

I know there are other non-Anglophones who are also similarly unforgiving of those who don't master English

It's not a matter of whether they are good at English. I am not faulting them for not being adept at English, I am telling them it's stupid for them to assume they understand the events of the story better than a person who clearly has a better grasp of the language. An example would be elevown understand of the word "some". By placing it in a different place in the statement then where it actually was, it entirely changes the meaning. If cases like that happen in simple phrases like that you can safely bet it also happens when anything is implied or slightly complicate in wording.

I think he was stating the facts as he perceived them, but did not express it in as direct or absolute a manner. He may be allowing room for debate since he did not imply his perception of the facts was the only truth.

Yet there is no room for debate because there are absolutes. If he has presented points to contrary of mind without them being blatant influenced by opinions I would not have said anything and responded in kind. But as they clearly were opinions I had not reason to not present my points as finite.

That last sentence in particular is an example of why some would be misled to thinking you carry a hostile and/or angry attitude with your comments.

Ever think there might be a reason I spoilered it?

Can we request some cleanup in this thread? This all seems like pointless arguing to me.

I'm back after a good sleep; I feel much better now.

OK completely off topic, how did you end up as a scanlator?

I learned enough Japanese that with some time and effort I could understand a manga in Japanese, Then I bought a manga that I couldn't find a translation for (Her World) and it didn't seem like there would be one. Then I got some old software that was capable of doing the editing and I started experimenting with it; the rest is history. Thanks for asking ciega. Also, the more I translate, the faster and better I get at reading Japanese.

I want to be able to share my thoughts and opinions without them being labeled unpleasant >w>

I love thoughts and opinions as long as they are about the manga. Thanks for a good post.

This happened to me yesterday, found (again..) an awesome manga that was dropped multiple times and with no hopes of being finished to be translated... I decided to increase my effort to learn japanese to minimum 1 hour per day, hope I will follow your path one day :P

I'm back after a good sleep; I feel much better now.

OK completely off topic, how did you end up as a scanlator?

I learned enough Japanese that with some time and effort I could understand a manga in Japanese, Then I bought a manga that I couldn't find a translation for (Her World) and it didn't seem like there would be one. Then I got some old software that was capable of doing the editing and I started experimenting with it; the rest is history. Thanks for asking ciega. Also, the more I translate, the faster and better I get at reading Japanese.

you give me hope. I keep working on my Japanese, but get too easily scared/frustrated with taking too long/side-tracked to put it to any good use.

last edited at Dec 30, 2013 12:27PM

Can we request some cleanup in this thread? This all seems like pointless arguing to me.

Do you have some aversion against people actually talking? God forbid a thread be filled with something more than emoticons and fluff speak.

Can we request some cleanup in this thread? This all seems like pointless arguing to me.

Do you have some aversion against people actually talking? God forbid a thread be filled with something more than emoticons and fluff speak.

but do you really consider this a discussion or meaningful debate in anyway? or even talking?

Compared to everything else that's said here? This conversation might as well be national level debate.

Compared to everything else that's said here? This conversation might as well be national level debate.

up to only a certain degree. unfortunately the baseless and banal bickering that started taking place is not even worthy of being labelled "national level debate."

Compared to everything else that's said here? This conversation might as well be national level debate.

up to only a certain degree. unfortunately the baseless and banal bickering that started taking place is not even worthy of being labelled "national level debate."

Yeah, that's the bit I was getting at in the first place. The parts that directly relate to discussing the story (and I'm fine if people don't like it and explain why, or even disagree with each other about it) was fine. But when you start to get into personal, snide remarks, that whole autism business and the like, that's where it gets into unpleasant and pointless territory.

Can we request some cleanup in this thread? This all seems like pointless arguing to me.

I don't think a clean-up is necessary tbh I mean while it can be called arguing people are generally taljing about the story which is the point of discussion boards.

What you claim as objectivity comes off as you claiming your personal opinion of one or more tropes

Well they're not. And it's kind of surprising how you said so much, but ultimately added nothing to the argument. I am referring to your whole post. Not just this line.

And the entire underclassmen-fawning-over-one-popular-upperclassman is so common I can't count all the works that use it,

Okay... But how does that help your argument? That's not one of the contradictions I pointed out.

hence the comedy tag

You can't use a third parties tagging system to support your claim. Because it is but only subject to change, it has no official bases. Thus reflects nothing about the story in terms of finite aspects.

It's combined with the "insincere confession" where a such underclassman confesses but doesn't expect to be accepted and/or doesn't want an actual romantic relationship complete with sexual encounters

Again, this adds nothing to the argument, and has already been said multiple times. it also does not disprove the points made.

in Kisses, Sighs & Cherry-blossom pink

There it is not used as a plot device for the sole purpose of forcing the story along.

in the genre (or at least the comedy-aligned subset of the genre).

See point about tagging.

since that's what you did in the first complaining post, the contradictions you see are nonexistant

This is what you call a faulty syllogism, just because you say they are not contradictions doesn't mean it's true. You need to support your claim with reasons. It also does not help you are confusing things I said were clichés and things I said where contradictions.

those external conditions

They are not external conditions because they are directly from the story. You just are not seeing the relation to it.

RL conceived notions of how girl-frienship-hierarchies

The conditions don't come from the lack of realism, you really need to reread the thread. Because this point has been explained a few times.

I also find your "only one possibility for ways things can happen" attitude (bad word, can't think of anything better right now) to be hillariously naive.

No, that is the only way she could develop a preconception of that form without being literally retarded. If she did not lean it that way she would have no reason to think the girls confessing to her would not be serious.

Lastly, your whole post was mostly empty words, and repeating common knowledge ad nauseam. But, it is clear you don't qualify and perceive information in logically coherent manner. A few examples of this are how you confused clichés and contradictions, thought that a tagging system holds some type of sway over the story (it is actually the exact opposite), and that you claim something is 'hilariously naive', but don't even give a single counter example.

You're free to argue with me all you like, but I insist you give examples and reasons supported by actual events. Not just "I say so, therefore it's true."

the baseless and banal bickering

Not a single thing I have said has been baseless. The same can not be said for others though.

that whole autism business and the like

But see. No one was ever actually being called autistic. The only reason that became a thing was because Moderath did not realize it was not being used literally, and refused to read the whole thread. The most I have done in the way of "personal insults" is ask people to clarify their poorly worded English statements.

Do you have some aversion against people actually talking? God forbid a thread be filled with something more than emoticons and fluff speak.

People are allowed to talk...

Well, yeah. That's kind of my point.

Well, yeah. That's kind of my point.

Mine too. How?

What? Something is definitely being lost in translation.

@NorthernDruid - heh, that reply was more like a thesis if ever i've read one. However, I'd like to clear up one point. From the following passage below, you do mean "Nagisa" on page 20 (chapter 2), correct?

The first point is refuted on page 17 where Miu reflects on how her personality differs from how everyone view her.

I would read all the comments but it seems to be back in school.

I would read all the comments but it seems to be back in school.

YesTowdd, we've all apparently enrolled in literary analysis 101 for the past 2-3 days. I must admit, I have enjoyed the back-and-forths between everyone and had someone broke down and started reeling off 'yo momma jokes, I think I would have peed my pants.

unfortunately no one did... pout :-(

NorthernDruid... Wow. I'm going to reply with pastebin so it stops cluttering the thread. Because we are no longer on topic of the story, and this is just going to be me telling you why you're wrong. This has morphed into a mostly definitional argument.

But I will point out two things publicly.

Now to be honest I find it difficult to understand your arguments, because they're so vague.
i'm not really keen on rereading the entire thread just to be sure),

Nothing I have said has been even remotely vague, and if you're not going to read the whole thread this pointless and unfair to me because it'll just lead to me repeating information that would have other wise proved you wrong with out me saying anything.

http://pastebin.com/Fzg1xiH3

reeling off 'yo momma joke

ciega , Your momma so [insert witty, yuri based pun here].

ciega , Your momma so [insert witty, yuri based pun here].

awww boo, you're no fun. no one's attacking you. for the record, it's " yo momma." if you're going to be a smart Alec, at least get the beginning of the quip correct.

awww boo, you're no fun. no one's attacking you. for the record,

I didn't think you/they were. I'm just tiered and for some reason thought that would be funny.

it's " yo momma."

I was going to say that, but apparently the grammatically correct part of my brain took over.

I usually post text-heavy paragraphs, but reading all this has me burnt out. I'll try, nonetheless. This is mainly going towards the general argument, but a huge portion is in response to csx's posts.

I don't see the issue with the "whole school is gay" thing; Fujiwara is a foreign (quarterly is what they said, right?), tall athlete who sticks out from the rest and is the most "manly" (like a prince, I guess? I can't explain it) - thus most girls admire her, because Fujiwara, on the surface, is like a man. This is also why Miu decided to use her, as she has already stated - she wants to be noticed and receive praise for "dating" the school's "boy."

Of course, just seeing a few girls go gaga over her is in no way saying the whole school is after her. You can't bring in ad populum just on the basis of, "well about nine girls went crazy about her, so the whole school must be."

As for their deal: Fujiwara gets a friend and the influx of confessions are off her shoulders; Miu get to experience love and being with a prince-ly "man." They both get something out of it along with a relationship in the future. How that's difficult to process is beyond me.

The confessions aren't taken seriously, likely because the girls DON'T KNOW HER. You wouldn't accept a confession from someone who knew nothing about you (and vice versa) other than your name and face, would you? Fujiwara most likely rejects and forgets because at the end of the day, why worry about someone who claims they love you yet doesn't know you? Just because they cry, that doesn't mean their love is as deep as they say it is. That's not bad writing, it's just being realistic. They also keep saying "boyfriend". This is a HUGE hint that they aren't in it out of genuine feelings, they just want to be with someone who best represents a boy in an all-girl's school; that person just happens to be Fujiwara. Miu, being the one closest to her, obviously should lose this thinking if and when she falls for her (if she hasn't already).

Kaede claims she's in love with Fujiwara, but again, she doesn't KNOW her nor does she think they could ever approach her for mere karaoke. So her asking Miu to break up with Fujiwara, as if she had a better chance, just makes me roll my eyes.

That said, I'm loving this manga. I would say more, but it's 4AM and way too early to be awake.

last edited at Dec 31, 2013 7:06AM

The confessions aren't taken seriously, likely because the girls DON'T KNOW HER. You wouldn't accept a confession from someone who knew nothing about you (and vice versa) other than your name and face, would you?

I never get this, though it seems to be the most common element of shoujo. "Your face is pretty, have my babies." or "Your face is pretty, so my social status is increased by being with you."

Funnily enough, the latter is only true for non-main characters. If you're a main character, the actual outcome is "Your face is pretty, so everyone is jealous and wants to beat the shit out of me."

So her asking Miu to break up with Fujiwara, as if she had a better chance, just makes me roll my eyes.

This event makes me think that it's only going to last 4-5 chapters. That seems like a catalyst to "Oh, wait. This isn't fake, I'm in love. I don't want to break up."

For a tall, sporty character, I think Kase is far superior to Fujiwara. Actually, for any tomboyish lead, Kase is the most superior in my opinion.

http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/kase_san_ch04#11
vs.
http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/the_princesss_mirror_ch02#7

Back to the actual story, though. I wondered about the boyfriend part. From other Morinaga works it seems that "girlfriend" is used, so it's most likely not just the viewpoint of Morinaga on lesbian gender roles. I'm not going to analyze that part given that there are only two chapters – I want to see how the relationship terminology changes before I make my judgement.

Actually, I just dislike hard analysis until the entire piece has been read through, first.

I wonder if there is some emulation here given that Kase-san has been doing well in Hirari? It always seemed to me that Morinaga preferred very feminine characters reflecting a refreshing lack of gender roles, so I was surprised by the addition of a story with a boyish girl and the "boyfriend" terminology.

@esn: Apparently Taguchi from Girl Friends was set up for being the tomboy popular with the underclassmen, but Morinaga didn't find the time to put it in.

K,S&CBP also references a couple of popular tomboy characters.

Just for reference.

I forgot about those. I have the English volumes of Girl Friends and K,S&CBP. (Those along with Hayate x Blade are actually my only physical copies of manga).

But there goes trying to lead away from the argument.