Well, that was a strong criticism of my idea. Though thank you for sharing it, as avoiding stigmitization is important.

I personally wouldn’t know what it is more common in terms of before/after feelings and have no connections to the industry. Still, I don’t think people only work in the sex industry because they were already completely comfortable with nudity. At least in universe, the story is in fact showing us a character who has hang ups and still wants to transition the industry. Many fields involve aspects that are initially stressful or hard to deal with, though to what degree varies from person to person, that then become normal after exposure over time. Another example would be the sight of blood for someone in medicine.

In any case, I am not meaning to make the argument that she had a strong sense of shame around her body and was changed by the industry. I mean that I think she’s in “business mode” here. The way someone talks to a colleague is different than the way they talk to an outsider. The business mode would certainly only be learnt after being involved in the industry, regardless of what industry we’re talking about. Few other industries would involve the technicalities of shaving your pubic hair, so this situation came up precisely because of the specific industry she was involved in.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 8:59PM

Mashiro has not violated any agreements with Makino, nor has she ignored Makino's boundaries. Doing something your partner doesn't like isn't ignoring their boundaries. Otherwise, it would be violating your partner's boundaries to, say wear clothing they disliked. My hypothetical partner (who, lets be honest, I would be talking to now if I had one instead of posting about yuri comics) could feel that my clothing reflects badly on them and want to have a conversation about that, they could choose to end the relationship, etc. Still, even if my clothing was strange or offensive by mainstream cultural norms, none of this would mean I was violating their boundaries. If they pressed the issue, they would in fact be violating mine, by trying to control what clothing I wear.

The basic thing here: Mashiro gets to decide what body parts she shows to what people, who her friends are, and to whom she gives business advice. Makino doesn't get to unilaterally "set boundaries" about this. If Makino percieves any of this as a lack of faithfulness (the one thing Mashiro did commit to doing) then they should talk about that, because clearly Mashiro didn't see it that way and was open about what she was doing.

Has Mashiro done anything wrong? Well, she failed to notice how uncomfortable Makino was, nor did she try to talk with Makino more or reassure Makino when she was feeling insecure. Instead, Mashiro treated it like any typical outburst of Makino, like when Makino acts possessive of a fictional character. Failing to notice that it was a serious issue for Makino and instead plowing ahead is enough to warrant an apology, so I am not saying she is completely blameless.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 8:14PM

[Friendly remainder]
People might have forgotten but Mashiro backstory was told to MC when she got scared of thunder, Thunder bringing back the memories of the time when her Parents toss her away to the orphanage/abandon her to the orphanage...Mashiro remember this clearly when it very stormy (Lightning/Thunder) so she was at least 5-6+ year at the time instead of being a baby that can't remember much.

Damn, sounds like I need to reread this one because I don't remember that at all. That matches the neglect/abandonment background that would fit her personality traits, though.

otherwise she is relatively together and mentally healthy.

Mashiro was outright suicidal not long ago.

I don't remember if there were hints of an abusive childhood.

I did say relatively. Admittedly, if the suicidality was going to resurface, this would be the situation. Her alternative to her sister essentially questioned her worth as a partner and now she's spending the night alone, with no one to comfort her. Despite that, she is not acting like someone willing to repress wanting her boundaries or who is desperate for Makino's approval at all costs. Otherwise her behavior would have been very different this arc and she would be willing to tolerate aspects like letting Makino have veto power over her friends.

We also haven't heard of any parental issues, but we could imagine most mild to moderately conservative parents (ie typical Japanese parent) wouldn't be thrilled about their daughter being both a lesbian and sex worker. So there could be some level of neglect/abandonment or the sisters could even have been disowned by their parents, which would tie into Makino attributing her value to her sister and romantic relationship. An active abuse history would be a new reveal, though.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 5:41PM

All the talk of cheating, miscommunication, etc and I’m just thinking how she has a smart phone and could’ve pulled up any one of the millions of pictures out there to give examples. Like, literally no reason to give a full frontal preview.

Do we have any reason to think Mashiro might have weak personal boundaries?

Essentially no. She was all in on the lesbian incest business partners relationship and tied her self worth to that imagined relationship, but otherwise she is relatively together and mentally healthy. She has in fact protected her boundaries with Makino this arc, when it was something she cared about (giving the advice, expressing that being stereotyped bothered her).

It's much more likely that nudity and/or showing underwear (we didn't see which, she could have been demonstrating with a gesture) to another woman is simply not a big deal to her due to her experience as a sex worker, especially when she is in a nonsexual context of giving advice to another worker now.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 5:13PM

They do clearly both care for each other a lot, so I am also expecting a relatively happy ending. In fact, I wouldn't be this invested in the story if they didn't care for each other. But, much like with a fever, I think it's going to get much worse before it gets better.

Misa also crossed serious lines here (and tbh in every arc) in my view. The blind spot was not 100% foolproof, given they were outside on a balcony, there was the whole situation in the alley where anyone could wander in, there's the taxi driver and whoever else observing a blindfolded Io being ferried about, etc. This would be risky with someone who isn't a literal celebrity with a paparazzi. Even in previous arc in the pickup bar, Io told Misa that she wasn't comfortable with doing sexual acts in front of other people, and Misa has just been ignoring that because Io is still able to get off. If Misa keeps doing this kind of thing, eventually they're going to get unlucky with an observer identifying Io.

Then there is the whole situation with the mom saying she would make it so Io can never rebel again. I could see them going after Misa to manipulate Io. Even if Misa felt like she could handle the situation, Io might not agree and feel worse than if they went after Io herself. Communication could therefore be hampered in the future by Io literally being threatened not to communicate.

There's so many ways for the situation to get worse and, at least in real life, caring for each other often isn't enough to avoid harming each other.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 4:18PM

Sometimes a series goes so far that the hate readers are forced to give up even just responding without reading because the content is so bothersome to them. This manga for example has a lot fewer haters than the "My Girlfriend's Not Here Today," probably because the content is much more confrontational and explicit, even though the content here is normally the kind of stuff they flock to to hate.

You could probably relate this to the "dead dove" concept. This manga is a bag with a dead dove that eagerly wants you to know that's what it contains, compared to manga that tries to hide their dead dove by slowly ramping up to it and using fragrances and trying to present the dead dove with taste and shame.

Now I know another series too look at.

But yeah, this arc we got possible grooming, sexual assault of the main romantic lead, MC blaming the romantic lead for being assaulted, retributive public humiliation of the romantic lead, and then really intense BDSM esque explicit sex where the romantic lead is crying and compares the MC to her assaulter. The likely result is the MC facing no negative consequences for any of this (other than the ire of Hase/Io's mom) and instead being rewarded by deepening her relationship with the lead.

It's probably going to get weirder from here. We have plot points like the MC considering stuff like keeping Io at her apartment. Would the romantic lead be financially responsible on the MC at that point? There's the weird relationship between Hase and Io's mom where the mom was threatening to get rid of Hase, apparently just to mess with Hase. The mom said it was fine as long as Hase brough Io back, but realistically Io would have come back on her own eventually. Despite this Hase actively panicked. There's the possible implication that the Hase was recreating with Io what the mom did to her. That's a major theme in another Flowerchild manga, A Detatched Relationship. Etc.

Early on, some people were thinking this would be subverted. They somehow thought we'd get a story primarily about both Misa and Io healing, plus exploration of healthy BDSM communication. At this point, it should instead be clear that the dynamics will be getting worse for much or most of the story. If what's happened so far is upsetting, hate reading would be more like touching a hot stove with a "hot stove" indicator light on than than the entertaining love-to-hate relationship many people have with more mainstream and popular works.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 10:07AM

It's also really common that people get along well until one of them is angered/stressed, at which point the latent bigotry or psychological issues come out. In a romantic context, this can be where the relationship either ends, which is why many don't make it past 6 months

Makino spent her time goofing off and focusing on her games because she was raised in a way where she felt like she would never amount to anything. As a result, it seems like she's up to date on exactly zero social issues. She's not even particularly good with lesbian social issues. It makes sense she'd have some unexamined biases that she picked up from society that are obviously wrong if she thinks about them, but that she never had any reason to think about until now.

Also one of the dangerous things about anger is that you feel justified in doing things you wouldn't normally, almost like being drunk or on drugs. Even if you are 'justified' in being angry, it's hard to keep your actions strictly justified if you are dominated by that mindset. Many people would then find some way to self justify their actions after the fact or even alter their memories (seriously, that's a thing that's been studied), but Makino was able to quickly realize she went too far.

last edited at Nov 29, 2024 9:37AM

@RandomFanZ

There is nothing wrong or shameful about Mashiro's previous job [There are many worst jobs that exploits innocent people...At least people are mostly happy thanks to the Lily job...] but I can see MC's point of view and how she got a tiny tiny bit (Normal amount actually) jealous, MC would not be that insecure or jealous if MC had previous relationships before Mashiro (Has experience on what to do or not to do) but sadly this is her 1st and hopefully last relationship.

I think there can also be some tension from someone with many partners and someone with few/one partner relating to sex differently, which is probably exacerbated with one of the them having literally been in the sex industry.

Even if you're both okay with the other's history in theory, there can be these times where you fail to understand how the other person is thinking about. I see that as the case here, where Mashiro seemed to fail to notice that any of this would bother Makino seriously and where Mashiro thought what she was doing was not a big deal. And of course Makino wasn't thinking about what it was like to be stigmatized in the way Mashiro has been since that's totally outside Makino's life experience. It's a very realistic misunderstanding for them to have.

I think it will be easy for them to make up during their next conversation since they can probably see each other's perspective if they're calm and talk about it.

Personally I respect moralizing as long as people aren't shaming or looking down on people who disagree with them, though unfortunately those are common many places. Still, you have got to be more of a masochist than Io to be doing that while reading this series. I'm not sure how many of that camp we have left reading, but I would expect most to have not survived this arc.

Thanks - I'm genuinely glad to hear it.

I largely appreciate that this forum lacks a like feature or other social media features, as that encourages people form and share different opinions more independently. However sometimes I feel like I'm shouting into the void here, especially when discussion dies down.

last edited at Nov 27, 2024 3:51PM

I'm disappointed people are only discussing this when they dislike it. Please tell me I'm not the only one this focused on the series.

Anyway, something I realized is that Misa probably did think they had a type of agreement of exclusivity.

The latest chapter quotes Io asking Misa to order her around, showing Misa remembers that and thinks it's a big deal.

But, going back to chapter 7 when Misa finds out about the manger going in Io's room, Misa gently criticizes the manager the manager. She then asks Io, "Doesn't that bother you at all?"

Io says: "I think she was just looking out for me. I've been with Hase-san since I was a teenager. Because it's her job to manage me, that's why I trust her. Until now I thought nothing of it, but I hated it today."

Misa says: "You have to take that feeling to heart."

This is Misa trying to teach Io about how to have boundaries, which clearly Io has been raised to not understand well. Then Misa takes Io to the spa to relax, but later, during the sex scene, Misa is thinking:

"I'll make you forget about that crazy manager of yours."

Then says to Io: "Do you understand? You're mine."

At which point Io agrees and Misa thinks that it's like training a dog.

That means Misa was already trying to stake ownership over the manager at this point, with the "training" appearing to at least partially be to priotize Misa over Hase. When Io agreed, Misa felt like they had an agreement that Misa was the only one that Io would be completely obedient with. All or much of that likely happened subconsciously, as Misa hadn't come to terms with her sadism yet nor had she seemed to recognize her possessiveness.

It nonetheless may have meant the later assault did feel like cheating or otherwise a breach of their agreement that Io belonged to Misa, especially since Misa had told Io to be more aware of when Io didn't like what manager/Hase was doing. She wanted Io to have already been primed to resist Hase to the maximum of Io's capacity, without hesitating or shutting down at all.

last edited at Nov 26, 2024 10:16AM

I’ve been holding my tongue since I read the Spanish version of chapter 11 part way through the last discussion, but now I can talk about it. Whether or not readers approve of the chapter, this is very revealing in terms of Misa’s motivations.

HitsujiMary was really onto what was happening.

“...I don't know about you guys, but I think Misa's just resolving the inherent emotional conflict of the situation (both from Io from having been assaulted and from Misa's jealousy) by giving Io an actually good, consentual sexual experience.

Sure, it's messy. Sure, she didn't ask how Io was. But it fits both of these characters perfectly. I know it can hurt if you've been in a similar situation, but the point of fiction like this is to portray a particular fantasy with a particular set of rules/logic and expectations- and in this case, this chapter fits perfectly with the expectations that have been set.

It's toxic yuri after all.”

Except not exactly consensual, lol. But it makes sense.

• Misa feels jealous and is possibly afraid Io might have enjoyed it on some level (like Gabinomicon speculated)

• Misa worries Io might be seeking Misa out due to how bad Io’s situation is. The fear is that Io could be putting up with her due to a lack of better option.

• Misa wants to be able to help Io, but couldn’t do anything to protect her and will have to send her back into that dangerous situation. This would have been very disempowering for her.

• If the stuff with the manager was completely nonconsesual / not enjoyed, Misa is frustrated with Io for being passive and not stopping it, eg, letting the manager get in a second hickey like Suimasen Scans mentioned. If Misa can’t protect her, she wants Io to at least do whatever she can to protect herself.

• Misa is aware Io may feel guilty about what happened, especially if Misa criticizes Io for being passive.

Misa’s impulse here, since she couldn’t undo what happened, was to teach Io to stick up for herself, to cover what happened to Io with an even more memorable experience, and then let Io know all was forgiven, thereby cleansing Io in a way. Then she gets carried away in the act, as she tends to with Io.

That’s not acceptable from the perspective of real world morality. I think it does make for an engaging story with consistent characterization.

Someone pointed out earlier that the Spanish version used "traitor" instead of "cheater" and that makes more sense. Misa doesn't think Io actively cheated, they didn't even have an exclusive relationship, but rather is doing the kind of misattribution of Io's feelings that some people in this thread did after the most recent chapter, interpreting Io following Hase's orders as Io's subby nature tempting her to go along with Hase rather than understanding that Io was scared and looking for an out but not feeling like she could just outright stand up to Hase. Misa thinks Io almost gave in to temptation and snapped out of it, enraging Hase, rather than the situation being nonconsensual from the start.
At least, that's my interpretation after sitting on it for a day and rereading it. The next chapter after this one is sure to be interesting on way or another, as Misa will presumably hear the full story and a) feel guilty over her presumption and b) very angry at Hase, perhaps to the point of acting against her.

I like this interpretation. I think she also understands Io is passive in general and would have a hard time sticking up for herself when she doesn't like something, but that's the logical part of her brain that gets shelved when it comes to Io. Feelings like jealousy, frustration, etc as well as finding comfort in her own budding sadist inclinations were really driving her decisions this chapter. She wants to be exclusive at least when it comes to the dom/sub relationship, so someone appearing to encroach on that would upset her.

Edit: I would guess also, since Io is the only one she's consciously had sadist feelings towards, it would be very scary to her if she was replaceable to Io and another dom would be fine. That's why whether or not this is the case was one of the first pieces of information she verified after finding Io.

last edited at Oct 14, 2024 1:48PM

If Ersrs is from a country that handled it relatively better and then went to Japan where they handled it relatively worse, it makes sense to me Ersrs would associate it with Japanese culture. And culture can have negative or destructive elements to it that necessitate culturally specific criticism in order to change.

This implies the existence of a country where Misa's reaction to what happened to Io would be unthinkable, and that country does not actually exist.

If you were to adapt this story to be at in America the only thing you'd need to change is Misa's job from "Hostess" to something like "exotic dancer" or "escort". None of my characterization or plot would need to change to be believable for American characters.

I agree about the US, though I would not assume Ersrs is from the US just because we are talking in English. People tend to use English forums to discuss manga because there are not big discussion sites in every language.

Anyway, my previously stated position is that Misa doesn't actually blame Io, but is frustrated by Io's passivity as well as Misa's own inability to protect her. Therefore, I see this as unrelated to Japanese culture and more about their individual dynamic.

If Ersrs is from a country that handled it relatively better and then went to Japan where they handled it relatively worse, it makes sense to me Ersrs would associate it with Japanese culture. And culture can have negative or destructive elements to it that necessitate culturally specific criticism in order to change.

A practice can also be part of many cultures, like, say, wearing pants. If Ersrs was from a culture where people did not normally wear pants, went to Japan, and then said "Pants are an important part of Japanese culture," that might seem weird even if it's technically correct. It's still natural to associate it with Japan if that's where you first encountered ubiquitous pants usage.

On the other hand, we are on a public webfourm talking in the main lingua franca. There is a risk of readers subject to previous racist messaging using this both to stigmitize Japan and act like their own country lacks this problem. I would agree the situation demands tact in how criticism is levied, especially if one is not Japanese, and so we should make it clear this phenomenon is not unique to Japan. I'm not sure the two of you really disagree about anything of import, though, as much as you are speaking from different sets of life experiences.

@Gabinomicon

I can understand how Misa is feeling, but I expected her to have greater self control than this I think. She's been fairly calculated and has a lot of experience from her job with keeping a lid on her emotions. I guess nothing to the extreme degree of this situation though, especially since Misa is yeah probably the first lover she's been truly emotionally invested in.

Also they were in a dark alley for the foot licking, but Io ran out of her apartment without her wallet or phone and is currently alienated from her job and family for the moment, which is a more pressing immediate concern probably.

It could be that Misa liked someone many years ago before becoming her jaded older self, but to me it appears to at least be her first dom/sub relationship. Both of them seem to have zero connection to the BDSM community and are winging it without proper communication, so this is more logical to me than what a lot of commenters were imagining.

I would also say Misa has also never had good self control when it comes to Io. She starts out by dragging a reluctant Io into a hook up bar, mostly ignores Io looking uncomfortable with her sexual advances (other than telling Io she can leave, but Misa never stops and waits for explicit consent to continue), sees it as "her chance" when Io is so drunk she's almost passed out, and then tries to assault Io in her sleep when she thinks Io is actually passed out.

Misa has a good reputation in the pickup bar, so all of this is likely not her modus operandi. She's calculating except when it comes to Io. She she ignores her judgement in other ways with Io. An example is thinking that she should be uncomfortable with being stalked, then not feeling uncomfortable or trying distance herself from Io.

Also though, it seems like her mood massively improved after receiving the dogeza. I think she is craving the power rush due to feeling powerless before. Therefore she may be getting carried away even beyond what she planned. I predict she will feel bad about some of this afterwards, especially if anyone was watching them in the dark alley.

Edit: @lukhas

Edit: Also, I find the choice of words for the title of this chapter interesting. in the Spanish translation they used the word "Traitor", whereas here is "Cheater".

I didn't realize there was a Spanish translation, but I found it on visortmo. I prefer reading in Spanish when possible and see that there is an 11th chapter, so now I'll be zooming ahead, thank you.

Traitor would make more sense to me to describe how Misa was feeling. Misa doesn't seem to be the type that would assume exclusivity without talking about it, even if she is now wishing she had asked for it.

last edited at Oct 14, 2024 8:48AM

Count me as one not surprised by this development. Though I am surprised that a chapter came out right after I commented and while I was at my religion's equivalent to church. I also am surprised I read this cursed but engaging comic the same day after reading the comments. I'm not sure what that says about my odds in the after life.

The development does make sense to me though. Neither of them have a frame reference for a healthy, long term relationship. Misa prides herself on "pillow talk and aftercare", but that's different than resolving serious conflicts. Io only knows how to express her affection by being obedient. That brings us to the present situation.

I also think it's obvious Misa is pissed, not because she got cheated on (they never had that kind of agreement), but because Io was passive, Io didn't protect herself, and Misa hadn't done anything to prevent it and couldn't help at all in that moment. She is mad at herself for being powerless. This is her way of staking ownership to make it so Io will only listen to her in these situations. That's more immediately likely to work than giving Io a pep talk about how Io needs to stick up for herself, as Misa is going against many years of conditioning.

Of course it bodes bad / interesting developments in their future relationship. In a way they are each other's firsts, so the yuri toxicity must flow.

I feel like the public foot licking with no glasses is going to make Io lose her job or otherwise have financial impacts on Io, which will leave Misa at the head of a power imbalance as Io's remaining support.

last edited at Oct 13, 2024 8:10PM

Re:grooming, I think saying that the manager had no impact on Io is going too far in the other direction. Everything in your life has an impact on everything in your life to some extent. It does seem to me like the manager taught Io to have poor boundaries toward her, as Io is uncomfortable but doesn't seem affronted by the manager coming in in the middle of night. It's like, to Io, that's just something that happens sometimes that you have to deal with, the same as getting caught in bad weather.

Someone also pointed out Io blushing when the manager told her what to do. In the latest chapter, to me Io looks unhappy, but still attracted to the manager. We know Io is aware of her attraction to women and tried seeking out women in various contexts. I don't think it would be going too far to say that the manager may be her first crush, with that lasting however many years as an unrealistic but present feeling.

She also likely intuits on some level that she doesn't feel safe with the manager, which is another reason for her to seek someone else despite finding the manager attractive. The first person you have feelings for can impact what type of traits you find attractive. Misa shares some traits with the manager, but is nicer (taking care of Io when she has a problem rather than blaming her), less pushy, and and less invasive. That makes it very logical for Io to fixate on Misa, as a safer person who has the personality traits Io likes.

I think this could be a catalyst for Io to start to consciously process why the manager was a bad experience and Misa wasn't. I could also see Misa, who is afraid of commitment and doesn't want to act possessive of anyone, telling Io to only listen to her in these situations in order to protect Io. That's what Misa wants anyway, but she would normally be reluctant to say it. Misa is not ridiculous enough to ask for exclusivity and not reciprocate it, so that could be the push she needs to pursue a type of relationship she normally avoids.

PS: I am not saying the manager caused Io to be submissive or masochist, but possibly was the first person to trigger those already present inclinations. And all this may be wrong, of course. We are early in the story.

last edited at Oct 13, 2024 9:35AM

Matsuri hasn't done anything really inappropriate and has in fact been very direct about what she wants. However, some of her ways of speaking seem fake / deliberate, like all her pointed questions about Komaki or at times seem to be low key guilting Wakaba into doing something.

It does seem like her character is basically the fluffy shoujoish romance character. Someone earlier in the thread asked if the green tea latte (I assume what we'd call matcha latte) had a symbolic meaning. If it does, I think the meaning is "something completely ordinary (green tea), but extra sweet." That's her presentation, but it remains to be seen how sincere she is.

Being socially calculating doesn't make you evil, but you can't blame people for suspecting when the main pairing was decided on the cover of chapter 1. Clearly Matsuri is an antagonist role of some type, but she could also be a soft antagonist who has their best interests at heart. That would give her reason to be direct about figuring out exactly what is going on between Komaki and Wakaba.

last edited at Oct 10, 2024 4:54PM

the confirmation that it was platonic incestuous bdsm is hilarious LOOOOL

It lowkey feels like this manga is autobiographical knowing how Mira has a husband lmfao like. you okay girl?

Also I only have a surface level understanding of BDSM but I didn't really get the earlier reception to this manga. I get being weirded out by the absolute lack of logic between the sisters but by chapter 8-ish it should be clear it was leading up to the final page of chapter 21 lmao

TBF though I did read the original deviantArt Sunstone run as it was going so maybe I'm just way more in the know than I thought
I thought it was cringe at the time because the "I'm on my period the pad rubbing against my pussy is so erotic wow" sex scene was DUMB

It seems like there will always be a lot of people who don't understand what isn't explicitly spelled out. There also will be many who insist on interpreting it from their own perspective and set of values, rather than trying to figure out the author's.

On the other hand, incest is understandably a pretty hard line for a lot of people. Not everyone will be willing to wait it out to see where the author is going with it, especially if they have a strong emotional reaction to the early chapters. People seem to lose enjoyment in series for much smaller reasons than this.

I've had enough exposure to manga incest plotlines that the sisters' interactions, while weird/uncomfortable to me, were something I was willing to tolerate to see the other parts of the story. Now I appreciate all the characters and their respective dynamics, but at first I didn't expect to and just wanted more Mio/Sarasa. At another point in my life, I might have dropped this myself.

last edited at Sep 13, 2024 7:06AM

I think in this context it means to think about the consequences of your actions. That is important to emphasize as you start getting into less conventional activities. Being thoughtless would eventually get results that are not good, to say the least.

For instance, most people will try to avoid drawing blood since it's a disease vector. If they do draw blood, they will probably not use blades because blades can leave permanent scarring or even accidentally get someone sent to the hospital or killed. If they decide to use blades anyway, ones hopes it is with a lot of caution and an understanding of what to do and what to avoid.

'Normal' BDSM activities like tying someone up may still be seen as not sane by mainstream cultural standards. However, if someone is attending workshops, monitoring the other person closely, and taking the necessary steps to avoid danger then they are still exercising sound judgement. They came to a conclusion at odds with the wider culture, but they weren't thoughtless or unaware of the consequences.

The vagueness comes from each activity needing to be judged on its own merits. A statement of values is a sufficient lead in to a more specific discussion. Debates and disagreements can still be had and, in fact, making space for that is valuable.

This is how I understand it, anyway.

last edited at Aug 26, 2024 7:25PM

I was surprised by this reception to this series on here, as I thought of this as more realistic, stressing communication, and doing a very good job communicating how the dynamic actually feels. The last one more so than any other media I've seen, with this one evoking a visceral reaction in me. The most toxic behavior is from the mom who failed in her past relationships, failed to recreate the old dynamic, and is going to have to learn how to take things slow and foster more sustainable relationships if she wants to have a chance.

However, when I stop to think about the high schooler being a BDSM master, incestuous BDSM in conjunction with the main pairing, highly dramatized interactions emphasizing public play, etc, I realize maybe I've read too many manga. I still find this realistic and relatable by manga standards, but the exaggerated character dynamics and dramatic stories are part of what draws me to manga. "Adult high schoolers" is also something I stopped questioning a while back, due to how common it is.

Edit:

First, I don't think it's the case (it has happened, but not commonly). But also, there is some hope that the moms' relationship isn't doomed. As long as one is alive after the time of LGBT oppression is over (as is the case of those characters), they can go back to what was taken from them.

(previous post)

I think it will work because it seems like they both have no one they're interested in more than the other. The only reason they aren't proceeding is that one of them wants to prioritize her kid until she graduates high school.

The way I see it is that the series tries to depict pitfalls of BDSM. One is that the dom cannot be always on and needs to have space to be vulnerable, like after the bathroom pee scene where Sarasa needed reassurance. We also get "cute hanging out scenes" that don't add a lot to the plot. They seem to exist to drive home the message of needing to have separation between when you are doing BDSM activities and when you aren't, with more typical friendship dynamic being the other part.

With Sarasa's mom (can't remember her name), they seemed to have a lot of prejudice they were dealing with and were unsure about their futures. Sarasa's mom responded by trying to push boundaries as much as possible as often as possible, with the goal of taking ownership. We also see her fantasizing about hurting Mio's mom enough to leave a permanent mark on her. This makes emotional sense to her, as she feels like she get what she wants if she leaves enough of an impact.

One of the themes of the story, as another user put it, is "BDSM as an expression of love". I think this is showing us that you do still have to put in the work and communication to have a sustainable relationship. You cannot just rely on the BDSM dynamics. This is an extension of how sex is often used to sub in for communication in relationships. It gives a feeling of closeness without needing words or understanding, yet always to bad ends. Many people have to learn this from the experience of imploding relationships. Sarasa's mom, who is one of those people, is only now starting to understand the nature of her mistakes.

last edited at Aug 18, 2024 6:46PM

y’all’re great, I should read/post here more. I like mangadex as a website more, but you have an inspired community here. I read all the posts in this thread.

Kanelel - https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/21278-how-i-lose-bets-with-my-sadistic-gifted-childhood-friend-and-she-steals-all-of-my-firsts-discussion?page=2#forum_post_895336

I think you're approaching this all wrong. It's normal to think “oh this is unrealistic, it would be impractical or immoral or unhealthy or toxic to do this in real life” when you see something like this, but if you want to enjoy this kind of media you have to be able to turn that part of your brain off. You have to enjoy this kind of thing on a completely libidinal, illogical level. You have to ignore your logical brain and go with your gut: “do i find this kind of interaction enjoyable or intriguing?” For a lot of people the answer will be no. That's fine. Different strokes for different folks. That's why we have tags on this website. This one's for the freaks (and frankly it's pretty light so far).

Speaking as someone who feels the same way as you, I do think it’s also valid to have consistent moral standards in all aspects of life, as well as to want media to have a clear pro-social message in a world filled with irl toxic relationships and bad communication. I would say that’s true as long they don’t desire to impose their ethos on the rest of us, but, realistically, they couldn’t do that even if they wanted. Still, you are right that someone continuing to read with the mindset is going to have a bad time.

Something I think that forum residents might not understand is that, in a healthy relationship, you can still have the pretense of more ‘questionable’ dynamics, but within clearly defined limits established by communication both before and after you do anything. You could, for instance, embarrass someone by having them be naked around you while you’re fully dressed, but not do anything truly psychologically damaging because you’ve already established limits beforehand.*

The establishment of limits isn’t normally shown in media in the same way there are not conversations about when it’s okay to kiss the protagonist; the main love interest just knows. While some reading this might think it would be weird to talk in advance about something as innocuous as kissing, that in reality is worth doing. You don’t know what associations or past experiences someone has with kissing (eg past trauma history that involved an aggressor kissing them). Having a single conversation about this at some point also will not ruin the romance factor like many fear.

In fiction, that conversation can nonetheless be safely skipped. The love interest will never make any mistakes the author doesn’t want them to make, instead kissing at the perfect time without ever triggering anyone’s PTSD. Likewise, Komaki seems to know Wakaba well enough to avoid crossing the line where she would be actually traumatized. Instead, Komaki brings out Wakaba’s subconscious desires that even Wakaba wouldn’t know to ask for. Komaki does this without any risk of making mistakes the author doesn’t want her to make.

In real life, to achieve this you would need to have had some kind of green light / yellow light / red light conversation, as well as a disengagement plan ready for if either party asks for it. Contrary to the expectations of some, the conversation could be romantic, sexy, or whatever associations people want to have, but skipping the conversation is just not going to end well. I think it would be nice if more media did depict those kinds of conversations. Even in the most vanilla of relationships, many are unfamiliar with a the specifics of communicating boundaries. With less vanilla practices, there is the importance having clear separation between daily life and when you are taking on those kinds of roles.

“Yuri SM de Futari no Kimochi wa Tsunagarimasu ka?” actually does depict both aspects, where major plot points involve how they communicate and stay receptive to each other’s changing needs in the moment. While I would highly recommend it to anyone interested, it’s naturally a very different type of story. It will not fulfill the same emotional desire as a fictional context where the pretense can be reality. That’s why we have stories like this one where it would be a train wreck if someone tried to imitate it irl.

At least some of us who like this type of story do understand not to reenact it as is, meaning our reading is not out of a desire to ignore consent or communication in real life relationships. I would like to think authors are primarily writing for that audience.

*Media where in universe boundaries are being crossed in a way that leaves people emotionally damaged also has its audience, but that’s another topic. This is clearly a “The MC mostly secretly wants it” story, which is a much more popular type of story.

flowsthead - https://dynasty-scans.com/forum/topics/21278-how-i-lose-bets-with-my-sadistic-gifted-childhood-friend-and-she-steals-all-of-my-firsts-discussion?page=12#forum_post_913831

All three series mentioned play around with consent in different ways, but I think the issue we might be coming up against is in the moment consent versus pre-activity consent. Both Bets and Arioto involve very clear pre-activity consent, and then dubious in the moment consent. In real life, that wouldn't be okay, and the in the moment consent is the most important thing. It's like doing BDSM without a safe word, and it's natural to be bothered by it. But part of the premise of these series is that dynamic, otherwise there is no conflict.

5000 yen, on the other hand, is constantly reconfirming in the moment consent. It has to, because they constantly say no to each other, push each other over their limits, and then step back. They break consent with each other all the time as well, hence the novel mentioning when they kick each other or when they say they'll get angry. It works better than the other two though because they're still communicating about the consent (terribly, but they're trying) and they still have hard lines they try not to cross. In contrast to the other two series, their biggest problem is the pre-activity consent. Basing their relationship on the 5000 yen confuses the issue for them, which is why they mess with their limits all the time.

I haven’t read Arioto, but 5000 yen is interesting because them repeatedly misjudging is part of the story. Neither want to do anything that actually damages the other person, so they're constantly trying to figure that aspect out, as well as how to communicate it (eg, by mentioning one of the rules even if it's a stretch). It's like how, in a standard het romantic comedy, the main love interest could misjudge the right time to kiss the MC as part of plot point, albeit only before finally arriving at the appropriate time for the climatic kissing scene. However, a lot of the plot in 5000 yen revolves around the mistakes, rather than it being some singular event that's the exception to the rule.

Compared to “Yuri SM de Futari no Kimochi wa Tsunagarimasu ka?”, where they even have a safe word (related to melons, ironically), 5000 yen kind of feels realistic in a different way. In 5000 yen, they are doing their best learning a skill no one taught them in a context that they have no experience in, naturally making mistakes in the process.

last edited at Aug 4, 2024 7:50PM