This is why they don't feel like a couple at all, their relationship is just a string of dramatic scenes with nothing in between.

There’s been plenty of scenes throughout the series where they feel like a genuine couple. All of Volume 5 and 6 especially, Mei trying to convey her feelings to Yuzu in Volume 7, the moments where they were alone together during the trip in Volume 8, the intense and tragic buildup to their breakup in Volume 9, and of course their reunion and Mei’s declaration of love in Volume 10.

Then in Citrus+, we have Mei boldly declaring her relationship with Yuzu to the school board, her trying desperately to say “I love you” again and settling for a kiss goodnight, her crying over losing her couples ring and their subsequent intimacy in that chapter, Mei fussing over Yuzu’s birthday (as poorly as the payoff was handled).

This is literally exactly what I said: a string of dramatic moments, so I dunno why you're treating it like it's an argument against what you quoted.

Mei to Yuzu: I don't care about your feelings
Mei to others: I really care about Yuzu's feelings

Like,I wish this would become a healthy relationship instead of an unhealthy one.

I have to add, because I only thought about it after I had walked away: that the problem with the depiction of the relationship in this manga is that they never have actual full conversations, they never spend time together. These two go to the same school, sleep in the same room, but have a distance between one another in every scene. You can feel like you're actually in a relationship with someone else when they're working from home, but Citrus won't do it. Who hasn't seen cozy little yuri moments when one partner is working hard on a novel or manga or whatever, and the second brings them over a coffee, puts a hand on their shoulder and they actually touch, give each other a glance, continue to do work. There's no reason that Mei literally doesn't have a minute to spare whenever she's working. The times they talk don't have to be when they're on their way home from school and Yuzu follows Mei to whatever meeting she's on her way to.

Like, the writer don't care about those little in-between moments, it's like they don't exist (they can exist even if we don't see them depicted, but they literally don't in this manga). Every serious conversation they have is cut off straight after the dramatic burn, or the big "I care about you" speech, but there is never any aftermath. Like, logically, this first scene here would not have ended right after Mei got all huffy something had to happen to end the conversation. It can't just end at "I know". And that's a legit storytelling technique in some instances, but for Citrus, it's every single one of their scenes together, and it just doesn't work. This is why they don't feel like a couple at all, their relationship is just a string of dramatic scenes with nothing in between.

I feel like I didn't get all my thoughts out coherently, but realistically what I'm saying is that this relationship is a writing issue, and that makes me sad. Going from one big drama moment to the next is never going to show a relationship in a good light.

last edited at Jul 22, 2023 10:03PM

You're making assumptions to suit your preconcieved notion.

It is highly amusing how much you don't understand that is exactly what you're doing here.

You're really reaching straight for "I know you are but what am I?"

I'm not making any assumptions.

Bahahahaha. I can't even with you, you really don't realise what you're doing? You're purposely trying to frame yourself as the "right" way with all of your language, then saying that's not what you're saying, then saying that is what you're saying, then saying why are you getting defensive while giving a point-by-point defense of your position.
Let me just end this, because if you literally don't realise that's what you're doing, there's no point in carrying this on any further, you're going to continue to be obtuse. Let me just say that if you re-read back specifically on the line where you said 'you're assuming, but I'm positing', instead of 'you're assuming, and I'm assuming', you're elevating your opinion higher than anyone else's and refusing to take anyone else's point of view seriously. Maybe check that habit. Might not bother you in RL, but it'll for sure get you into entirely avoidable fights on discussion boards from your belittling of other people's opinions.
(I also want to point out, I can have a discussion about my point of view and then decide I no longer want to take the discussion so seriously without being belittled as "being defensive", I just wanted to discuss the potential, as I had assumed you did until you got so hung up on "everyone else is wrong but me")

last edited at Jul 21, 2023 7:25PM

You're making assumptions to suit your preconcieved notion.

It is highly amusing how much you don't understand that is exactly what you're doing here.
Look, we don't know what the girls at the bar told her. It was a dramatic gag in a comedy manga. It was meant to be obtuse. It literally could be either way.

I'm still sticking that your take is weirder though. Hiroko has literally hit on every girl in that bar. She didn't have a "type" fro the bar according to what we've seen here, so how would they give an exact look based on her old senpai?

Which, I should point out, is entirely irrelevant. My first comment on them not being "friends" to give that advice was entirely to point out the absurdity of the joke, and I didn't mean it in an actual critique of the story so much as, 'lol, those girls at the bar really suck, lol.'

Yeah this is great! And make Maiko like... 24-25, and Iori can be 18~, and we can get age gap with less... Illegality.

18-25 is not an 'age gap'.
That's literally the same age bracket.
Although it being at the cusp of adulthood does make it straddle the line of weird, that just makes it sound like you want age gap without the age gap.

Also I have a problem with all these isekais, why do they never mention the protagonists past life? I mean surely it affects them if they remember it, right?

Isekais these days have kind of just turned into lazy character templates. Like, you don't need to introduce your character properly if they're just a normal person from our world.
Sometimes I'm just baffled as to why it needed to be an isekai at all, I feel like it would be much more interesting if they were "the chosen one" from their own world and being from our world with no backstory actively detracts from the story.

In saying that, I think the point of this being an isekai here is not her backstory, but the fact that she doesn't want to be the villainess where the original character in her shoes totally wanted to be cruel. So that's at least something. I can't think of a way where it would be possible to have this scenario without the MC being transported into a game world.

Urgh, well that's what I get for not reading the tags, lol.

Well, Evie has certainly let go of every inhibition in her child body.
No wonder Elsa was so smitten.

... she asked them what Hiroko wants in a woman. They describe her type, which obviously they do via her long term crush. Nobody said anything about dressing up like her; that's obviously Ayako going off the rails as usual.

People sometimes have weird reads on stuff that's going on manga ^^;

I think your read is weirder. Hiroko has gone out with/flirted with a lot of girls in that bar. Girls they've actually seen, girls who haven't clearly traumatised her.
No matter how close she might be keeping anything to her chest, they knew that her personality before and after that debacle was different.

The wording of Ayaka's question in the translation was "what she wants in a woman", so literally anything they told her she was going to emulate. She was literally telling them what she was already doing to try to get Hiroko's attention. She was asking for that advice specifically.

last edited at Jul 16, 2023 10:39AM

Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much.

You said this in two different comments, but where did you get that idea?

I suppose it's open to SOME interpretation, but I got it from this line:
"Our influence exists only because we sow accidents among the refugees, namely those who threaten the peace or otherwise prove detrimental to the administration"
"Even if it means condemning them to oppression and exploitation?"
"They will not remain outsiders forever"

That kind of sounds to me like what I was talking about.

Right, yeah, that's what I thought, but reading it again is starker. The organization is definitely a force for the status quo, and huge assholes, either way. They clearly don't have a problem with murder and seem to believe in some long-term assimilation or something. I mostly got the positive part from how the Bishop states that they both started with the hope of helping the refugees, but disagreed over methods. So I assumed that was still the goal.

I really don't understand why campaigning for change, but not through violence is ever considered being "a force for the status quo", which is 100% why I can't agree with any of you. If it's not a violent revolution, it's not worth it? Some things just take time.

While I do think Babylon is hypocritical since they kill people, there is a world of difference between murder and war, though.

"trust me dress up like the woman who broke her heart it will be hilarious"

Yeah, that's got me wondering whether any of the women at the bar are actually her friends...

Although Babylon's theoretical motives are kind of positive, my understanding is that that is not who they have been killing. To the contrary, they have been attempting to keep things calm so that change can (in theory) happen naturally in the longer term, by killing refugee leaders who agitate too much.

You said this in two different comments, but where did you get that idea?
We've seen Rose killing a drug dealer, and Babylon themselves have said they are killing criminals, so ... why are you getting the idea they're oppressing the refugees when their stated goals are literally the opposite of that?

Edit: In my head, I was relating your opinion to your politics (i.e. the idea that the church has that violence is literally the only way to enact change, so anyone against that is a bad guy), but then I realised it seems like they want to take out "influential leaders" by wanting to take out some of the church.
But they want to take out the church literally only because the church has that dirt on them and is trying to take them down. Now maybe with a side of armed revolt. So no, it's not them killing people who are influential leaders.

last edited at Jul 14, 2023 8:19PM

"The Church" in manga and anime honestly bears barely any resemblance to the real thing. It's kinda like talking about the Roman Empire as depicted in scifi story as alien races or something; it's a vague model, it copies certain iconic elements, but it's otherwise just completely it's own (made up) thing.

"The Church" in most stories is usually just a skeleton construct of "an institution", lol. Reality is boring ;)

Aw. it's cute you think this is going to be a "balm on a reader's heart" instead of the inevitable flood of comments hating on a story with tags they clearly already hate, so why are they reading it, lol.

I'm just glad Daphie doesn't let the comments get to them, and keeps translating the works that they enjoy and want to share.

and saying this another way, I hope you know there are plenty of us in the community that appreciate your efforts Daphie!

Thank you for this! Yes, I always strive to not let others bring me down. I just love age gap stories, it's a big part of my enjoyment of manga, so I'm doing what I can so others who also appreciate that can enjoy good chapters!!!

And you're welcome ^_^

I also very much appreciate you and like these kinds of stories. Something can be wholesome in a story that would be inevitably not-so in real life. In a story, it's just fluffy and everything works out right, and no one has awful intentions (unless it's the opposite kind of story, of course).

But there are a lot of cultural mores besides marriage where people feel like they don’t have any “choice” (if they want their family’s approval, if they want to fit in with their culture, etc.).

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. "It's a different culture" doesn't mean it's okay to force someone to marry some guy chosen for them or be ostracized by their family and the rest of the society they live in. You could also say that homophobia, institutionalized rape or inherent sexism are part of some cultures, and that's still not acceptable.

I don't see how any opinion that marriage shouldn't be free can be seen as acceptable. There are cultures where parents can act as matchmakers, which is completely okay, but the systematic pressure to accept such matchmaking "or else", like what Makino's parent are showing here, is not.

This is an argument that I've gotten into in Dynasty comments before. Because people don't seem to be able to understand the difference between "forced" and "obligated".
You don't have to follow family obligations, no. But some people actually do see family obligations as important, and that's where I get so frustrated at people being unable to look past their own cultural hangups.

Clearly, no one absolutely has to follow their family obligations. People have a lot of other options, and in a manga, they usually take them. For instance here, we're under no illusions that our MC is going to quietly follow what her awful parents want.
But in a hypothetical other story[cough, Sheep Princess, cough cough], if the family is trying to arrange something they actually see as the best interests of the child that they love, and that child chooses to forsake the romantic ideal of love or whatever for the sake of their family's needs, that is not the wrong decision for them to make, despite what Dynasty commenters seem to think.

last edited at Jul 12, 2023 11:08AM

Aw. it's cute you think this is going to be a "balm on a reader's heart" instead of the inevitable flood of comments hating on a story with tags they clearly already hate, so why are they reading it, lol.

Arrrrgggggh, my heart is going to give out. Too cute!!

God how I fuckin hate these forced marriage nonsense. I know it won't go anywhere considering the story of this manga, but still, roll my eyes every time this trope is brought up

Arranged marriages were common across the entire world. I don't know how relevant they are for Japan's elite families, but obviously there's enough cultural memory for it to work for the intended audience.

Yeah, the original comment gave me the vibe of, like, tell me you don't care to understand other cultures while not telling me you don't care to understand other cultures.
Being all [eyeroll] at the idea of arranged marriages is basically like, I can't believe that all stories aren't written specifically for me and how I view the world.

Lol.
"Yvonne got straight to the point and placed the empty bottle on the table, pushing it towards the perpetuator."
... I believe you meant perpetrator ;)
Perpetuator isn't actually a word according to my spellchecker on my computer here. I thought it might have been a different word based on perpetuate (different from perpetrate), but apparently not.

Well, I guess they couldn't just have a standard detective mystery section in the middle of this manga without it having some weird forced sex in there. That's what this manga is all about, after all.
But it's still weird.

I feel that it has become eternal
Zzz

It's a bit like that. We were on a cracking pace for about 20 chapters, then we came to a screeching halt with multiple chapters of the same hour-long date.

I kind of love how they're not actually after Rose, and she is therefore super confused about what's going on.

Looking at it from a meta perspective, I think it's an instance of the mangaka needing some drama, reaching into their Great Big Bag of Tropes, and pulling out the first thing they grabbed without considering just how many people would regard it as crossing a fairly significant line. It's values dissonance, like I mentioned upthread.

I can't say I disagree, but you are missing my point: the commenters here are like, how dare this ever happen in a manga, how can Ruriko be so awful, this is totally out of character, violence is never the answer, she should have pushed her away, etc.

This being "a trope" is exactly my point. It was being used to get across the point that Ruriko didn't just playfully be like, hehe no, stop. It was a record-scratch moment, where Ruriko completely rejected the advance in a way that could not be interpreted any other way but "don't ever touch me". (We know different, but to be on the receiving end of it with no explanation, it was a complete shutdown). To be all like "in real life, this wouldn't happen/this would be a bad thing to do" is beside the point. Ruriko likely feels exactly as bad about this as she should, but has no idea about the effects of it because she thought this was just some drunk play or something.

I didn't realise because I thought it was a completely normal story point.
Guys, guys, Dynasty Commenters who always overreact to everything: stop being so melodramatic. This is a story, and the slap was the best way to get across the drama of the situation. Pushing her away would absolutely have not got the point across that this was trying to make.
That, and she probably didn't slap her that hard, you drama queens. It's only as bad as someone giving you a non-consensual kiss in the first place, it wasn't "violence"

Nobody is being melodramatic. We just think slapping people is bad. You yourself agree, because when you slapped two people, you felt regret, you tried to make amends, and you resolved not to do it again.

And hey, that's grown-up shit right there. That's how a mature adult handles their business when they make a mistake, and I got nothing but respect for it.

But obviously you think you did something wrong by slapping those two people. Why else would you be so contrite?

I wasn't saying that Ririko did "nothing wrong", just that y'all are reacting like she took a big swing and smacked her across the face, or punched her and left a bruise. This wasn't a domestic violence situation, this was a "how dare you" situation.
And yes, I felt bad that I slapped someone, I didn't feel like "oh damn, I'm the worst person in the world, how dare I use violence in such a heinous way".

Also, heck, for one of them, I apologised, but you know what? I don't think that it was the totally wrong reaction to slap someone that time they grabbed my ass as a joke, so you know. Perspective. We both did wrong, and the girl I slapped was like, fair enough, I'm sorry too.
(the time I was a stupid teenager and slapped someone because I was angry, that, I did feel awful for, because I was the only one in the wrong. Two totally different situations, just FYI).

last edited at Jul 4, 2023 10:17AM

I didn't realise because I thought it was a completely normal story point.
Guys, guys, Dynasty Commenters who always overreact to everything: stop being so melodramatic. This is a story, and the slap was the best way to get across the drama of the situation. Pushing her away would absolutely have not got the point across that this was trying to make.
That, and she probably didn't slap her that hard, you drama queens. It's only as bad as someone giving you a non-consensual kiss in the first place, it wasn't "violence"