Yuri stories from actual lesbians (or at least bisexual) are the best. They just feel more honest.

I'm not sure which of Takemiya Jin's works gave you that idea? I can't remember any of her stories that ended with a happy het marriage. I don't doubt you, I honestly don't remember.

I'm mainly thinking of Fragments of Love, chapter 1. Ends with a woman who harboured some regrets about her past, some doubts about her sexuality, finds out that she could be happy with a woman if she wanted to, but ultimately decides to marry and have kids, and is strongly implied to have earnestly found happiness that way. I'm also assuming that the woman wasn't exactly head-over-heels in love with her prospective husband at the time, if she was still concerned that she might not even be interested in men.

It's not quite the same situation as what we've been talking about, and a lot of the important details are largely up for interpretation, but the overall impression I get is that there's space in Takemiya Jin's work for characters to choose a traditional arranged marriage, and be perfectly happy and fulfilled by it. I contrast this with how marriage tends to be depicted by Amano Shuninta, i.e. a bland and unfulfilling burden that you put up with while finding socially unacceptable ways to make your life interesting.

To be clear, I'm not really talking about what the author's themselves believe about real life - I'm thinking specifically about the kind of attitudes I expect to find in their work. It's more about the kinds of stories they tend to write, their typical genre choices and narrative tendencies, than anything else. So I'm not saying that Amano Shuninta definitely thinks of marriage as a miserable trap for unhappy women, just that those are the only kinds of marriages she's interested in writing about. So when she depicts a woman sealing away her youthfulness to attend an omiai, I don't assume we're supposed to read that as a true and happy ending for her.

I just reread the chapter. It is a weird one. I'm not sure how to interpret it. I get the feeling, the character was straight, but her friend's confession confused her, so she needed to explore that option before she fully committed to her husband.

Japan has the idea of class S, so on a societal level there is the widespread idea that intimate, romantic relationships between girls is a mark of immaturity and something to be outgrown with adulthood. Western cultures have similar ideas, just not under as-clearly-defined terms ("homosexuality is just a phase", LUGs, etc.).

The idea still kills the stories, for me. It makes me sad, when happily ever after, really reads, happy until one girl discovers boys, and breaks the other girl's heart.

So the nurse rejecting her experience with Touma and instead resigning herself to her arranged, heterosexual marriage can easily be interpreted as her giving up on her inner girl for the sake of her womanhood. I generally agree with the theme that one shouldn't have to completely give up their inner child in order to become an adult.

I think the entire concept, of getting married is a natural part of growing up is wrong. Whether the teacher is gay or not, is of no consequence. If she feels the need to meet a man and have a family, that's her choice. She shouldn't do it just so she can feel like an adult. She should definitely not be doing it so her mother will approve.

I know the japanese are more traditional in their beliefs, about marriage. That doesn't make the teacher's choice less tragic. In parts of Africa, they circumcise little girls. I doubt people would defend a character, who caved in to her mother's wishes, and multilated her daughter, just because that was just part of growing up.

I will say. I always disliked the idea, that homosexuality is a childish indulgence of youth, that seem to permeate a lot of yuri. I find it hard to enjoy a lighthearted all girl school yuri romance. I just keep thinks that none of this matters. The couple is going graduate, meat men and go their separate ways. It's like the authors are saying, don't worry folks. These girls aren't really lesbians. The just don't have men available, so the have to practice falling in love with each other.

I mean... Like the metaphorical Touma-kun, I'm kind of inclined to see the marriage interview as a purely symbolic motif for accepting adulthood, rather than a literal man she went off to marry in spite of her own wants or desires. Even if Amano Shuninta doesn't personally believe in "marriage = maturity" as a universal truth (which she almost definitely doesn't, let's be real) it still functions as cultural shorthand her readers would be intimately familiar with, and if I'm already interpreting Touma as metaphorical, I've got no reason to take the marriage as strictly literal either.

The bitterness people feel about the nurse accepting the omiai may be fully intentional on Amano Shuninta's part too; she might be deliberately portraying conventional adulthood as an unpleasant and unwanted burden foisted upon us by societal expectations. We might be supposed to question whether or not the nurse made the right choice, and in so doing, question what it means to be an "adult" in the first place.

If this was a Takemiya Jin work, then I'd probably interpret it differently, because she seems a lot more sympathetic to the idea that a woman can find genuine happiness by settling down with a man and starting a family, even if it's not exactly where she wanted her life to lead.

But this is an Amano Shuninta joint, so even if the nurse does canonically go off and have a lukewarm marriage with a man chosen by her parents, it's just so she can cheat on him with the neighbouring housewife or her stepdaughter or whoever. If anything, the fact that she's setting off on her stoic adulthood with her lingering desires for lost youth locked away in her heart, means that she's almost guaranteed to fall into a torrid love affair with a precocious, smart-mouthed teenager who relentlessly teases her but nonetheless makes her feel young and pretty in all the ways she secretly wished for. So y'know. Swings and roundabouts.

I'm not sure which of Takemiya Jin's works gave you that idea? I can't remember any of her stories that ended with a happy het marriage. I don't doubt you, I honestly don't remember.

Well... some people are happy to be married. And some couples don't conform to the traditional roles.

Thinking that any and all het marriage is a tragedy is a bit... narrow minded.

I guess I went off on a anti-marriage rant there. The tragedy is that the teacher feels she needs to get married, whether she wants to or not, in order to be a proper adult.

last edited at Apr 21, 2018 3:26PM

The fact that a woman feels the need, to get married, to become an adult, is a tragic statement, in it self.

For most people, male and female, getting married is part of becoming an adult. That's been pretty much constant throughout human history. Only recently, and only in a few small parts of a few societies is marriage being seen as unnecessary for large numbers of people.

Even if you don't hold that view (as I don't ) calling it "tragic" is pretty narrow-minded.

No, I don't think calling it tragic is narrow minded. Look how woman are traditionally treated in marriage. They are little more than domestic servants, and child bearers. They are pretty much just suppose to be support character in their husbands' lives.
Even in our supposedly liberated society, woman take the back seat to their husbands. Sure we tell girls they can grow up to be anything they want to be. Which is true, as long as the house is clean, dinner is on the table, and the kids have been picked up from soccer practice.
Of course, you can find examples, that prove this wrong, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule.

Desiding when it's right, to take the next step, in your relationship, all by yourself, is selfish. Kaoru and Mikoto, should make it together. I'm a fan of letting it happen naturally, when both people feel ready, myself.

At no point is it implied that the nurse is gay, or even bisexual.

Did none notice

• That Touma insists on being called "Touma-KUN", as if she's a stand-in for a boy.
• That the nurses start to call her Touma-kun only after the deed is done
• That Touma is still fully dressed in the bed. The one who did the other is obvious.

Honestly, that Touma is a girl is really irrelevant to this story. It's a girl because it's Amano Shuninta writing.

All the women have been turned into "girls". It's a manga about those girls and how Touma makes them change, not about Touma herself or even homosexuality.

The nurse was hesitant about the omiai, but the Touma experience made her realize that she was stuck between youth and adult. And as she doesn't want to or can't go back to being a girl, she goes forward with the interview, whether she marries or not.

The "adult thing to do" is not being married. It's doing something (the interview), even if you're not keen about doing it.

The fact that a woman feels the need, to get married, to become an adult, is a tragic statement, in it self.

Finding a room full of, “Hey, once you’ve tried Touma-kun, getting your hair done will never be the same” women is not the most morally reprehensible thing I’ve found to be hilarious on this site.

Not sure it’s even top 5.

I'm sure. It's not in my top 5.

So apparently nobody seems to give a shit about actual teachers sleeping with one of their students and don't thinking of it as "a big deal"? I honestly don't really care about Touma's motivations or whatever, but what sort of fucked up adults actually rationalize sleeping with an underage girl "not a big deal"? We've seen this kind of setup thousand of times before, but an adult woman confessing on putting her hands on her student, and everybody going "lol same" is not exactly what I think of when I think of "fun times"

Your right. In real life something like this, would create major moral outrage.(rightfuly so, I add for the record.) This is a fictitious world, with fictitious girls, in a fictitious high school, though. honestly, if this kind of thing offends you, you should probably stay away from the age gap tag.

It not so much the fact that they slept with their student, but the fact that they pass it as "not a big deal". We look at plenty of age gap works and usually the attitude is "Hey this is illegal and all, but as long as we keep quiet, things won't go south". There's guilt and there's recognition of how wrong are you acting.

Meanwhile, here we have a room full of adults who see nothing wrong with it. That's what pisses me off

I've read manga that treat, a teacher sleeping with a student, as a horrible taboo, that must be resisted at all cost. I've also read ones where they treat it casually, like it's no big deal. It all depends what tone the author wants to set with the story. I think the casual treatment fits this story well.

I agree with everything you said, but the part about "your special because..." and "I love you because...". In my mind they're about the same thing. The important part is the explanation afterward. Clear communication is the key.

What she meant was, saying someone is "special" implies a sort of objective value, while telling someone why you love them is clearly describing what value they have to you on a personal level. And it's that personal value that really matters in a relationship.

Fair enough.

Salamandrake posted:

I felt like Touma was similar to another character, and finally it dawned on me. She's like the younger version of Suwako-san, only more flirty and gives great haircuts.

Suwako actually only sleeps with people she loves. She can just love multiple people deeply at the same time, while Touma doesn't actually want any deep feelings.

last edited at Apr 19, 2018 4:43AM

Salamandrake posted:

I felt like Touma was similar to another character, and finally it dawned on me. She's like the younger version of Suwako-san, only more flirty and gives great haircuts.

Suwako actually only sleeps with people she loves. She can just love multiple people deeply at the same time, while Touma doesn't actually want any deep feelings.

I think they're both similar in that they make a lot of people feel "special", but by doing so those people aren't really "special" anymore.

One can argue that "special" has different meaning for each individual, but look at the MCs who are in love with Suwako and Touma respectively. They want to be "special" as in "the only one" in the eyes of the ones they love, and given the nature of Suwako and Touma, it's impossible.

Oddly enough, I actually happen to have some insight about this, as my best friend and enduring support is polyamorous. I had already sent her Touma-kun (which earned me a story about how she once punched a girl in the face in her high school's cafeteria), so I also sent her the Suwako-san chapters and asked if she wanted to comment. I figured anything she had to say might be a constructive contribution here. This was her response:

"To begin, I would say that of the two, I'm more like Suwako-san. However, while many people probably can't see much difference between myself and either character, I personally cannot understand the mindset of someone who 'loves everyone equally.' In fact, I question if such a person exists. For me, it's not so much about how much I love someone, as it is why I love a certain person and how I came to love that person. For instance, I love you [addressing me] like a little sister, but that certainly isn't the same love that would I would want to have sex with you over (no offense). And the talk of being 'special' bothers me a lot as well. I would never tell someone 'That's what makes you special.' Rather, I say 'That's why I love you.' And I only say that when I mean it, and think carefully about what kind of response I'll get from the partner I'm speaking to. Moreover, as I've told you many times, I've spent a lot of time and effort into making sure I can safely live the life I lead, which doesn't appear to be the case with these characters. Not to conflate fiction with reality, but I can't see their situations ending in anything but tragedy one way or another. I strive to be someone who can't be called 'irresponsible.' I know for a fact that you understand this much, but I hope everyone reading these stories doesn't think actual polyamory works this way, as it wouldn't work at all as presented here."

As an addendum:
"Now I'm wishing I had women [and men] throwing themselves on me in school. Might have saved me a lot of anxiety and depression. Or maybe it would have ended up worse. Actually, it's probably better not to think about that."

I agree with everything you said, but the part about "your special because..." and "I love you because...". In my mind they're about the same thing. The important part is the explanation afterward. Clear communication is the key.

last edited at Apr 19, 2018 4:13AM

So apparently nobody seems to give a shit about actual teachers sleeping with one of their students and don't thinking of it as "a big deal"? I honestly don't really care about Touma's motivations or whatever, but what sort of fucked up adults actually rationalize sleeping with an underage girl "not a big deal"? We've seen this kind of setup thousand of times before, but an adult woman confessing on putting her hands on her student, and everybody going "lol same" is not exactly what I think of when I think of "fun times"

Your right. In real life something like this, would create major moral outrage.(rightfuly so, I add for the record.) This is a fictitious world, with fictitious girls, in a fictitious high school, though. honestly, if this kind of thing offends you, you should probably stay away from the age gap tag.

ritsu is very disrespectful tho
her friend is in a relationship and she basically pretend she isnt? she has no respect for ichika or shun at all despite them being friends.
but also ichika sucks for trying to be in the middle instead of simply not accepting shun as a bf if she didn’t love him. at least she made a decision by the end but i dont think she would ever if ritsu didnt kiss her. well, theyre both trash and deserve each other...

Woe. Totally harsh.

Even tho im a sucker for yuri i gotta say , these hoes aint loyal boi 2 timing my nigga shun ... thats nasty af .
Give that dude a week and he'll get depressed and starts listening I to sad lofi beats with those cartoon intros , bottom line is we live in a society

GANG YURI RISE UP!

...no, seriously, this is possibly the only time I'd rather have it end het. The MC was just... such a legitimately bad person, everything she did was selfish. Reminds me of the ending of Scum's Wish, actually this entire premise reminds me of it, no wonder it's so contentious lol.

Nah love in general is selfish

Imma keep it real with you chief: That line by itself disqualifies any and all points you had after that. You are just objectively wrong in your understanding of love. This ain't even agape or some religious shit, plain and simple, love is selfless! Selfish love... is not actual love! Them's the facts, my guy, idk else what to say...

technically everything we do is selfish. Even when we do unselfish things deep down our motivations are selfish. There is no getting around it, selfishness is just a fact of life.

This boy is such a good person that I feel bad for him. I am not fan of cheating even it is yuri manga.

meh. I usually don't feel bad for the guys, who lose to another girl. It's not like I don't think it hurts, the guy, to get dumped by someone he loves. I just don't feel it's a betrayal. Even if it happened to to me, I just think to myself, it can't be helped. I would drink myself stupid, and cry in my beer. After a couple of weeks, I would pick myself up, dust myself off, and move on. I could even still be friends with my ex, if she wanted to be. That would never work if she cheated, on me, with another guy.

Finished? Wait hang on a second.. Is Ichika and Shun still dating? It's just going be a thing behind his back from now on?
Maybe i missed something? :/

I do like the art tho :3

No, I don't think, they are still dating. I'm relatively sure, Shun inviting Ichika to his game, was a test. Ichika not showing, ment, she chose Ritsu.

Is that it? Don't get me wrong the short ones are my favorite. Some times I even get impatient, during extremely long one shots. This one seemed rushed, though.

Yuri dating, on the sly, is just the cutest. I just love when, the girls use, the pronoun game, to hide their yuri love.

No, the Romance or story going somewhere is what destroy or rather end the romcoms or gag manga. They supposedly only wrap everything at the last chapters.

I'm cool with a last chapter romantic rap up. As long I get some quality flirty moments, along the the way.

Given that Kasumi has shown that she isn't really interested in romance and only wants friends, I feel like you're just reading into things you want to see and are going to be disappointed either way.

Especially with how obsessed you seem to be about the story's future and it demanding it play out in one particular way instead of just enjoying it as it happens.

If every character who declared, "They weren't interested in romance" stuck to that, it would destroy, the plot to 90% of rom-coms, and shoujo romance, stories. In my experience, when an anime/manga character says they want to get closer to another character, it usually means romance is in the air.
I just don't want to read 20+ chapters, of Kasumi leading her growing harem through the same old tired plots, hot springs/public baths trips, beach/pool trips, school festivals/plays, shopping trips, visiting sick friends, cooking lessons, sleep overs, and don't forget the ever popular candy exchange on valentine's day/present exchange on christmas (an absolute must, for this kind of manga), and have it go nowhere. If the author can deliver an in interesting climax, without a romantic hookup, I'm on board, otherwise make with the kissy face.
Hey, I could be totally wrong, and the author could surprise me, and go in a completely new direction, but from what I've seen so far, I don't think so.

last edited at Apr 9, 2018 6:01AM

Wow you guys have put a lot of thought, into this. I just figured, that the manga was trying to set a light hearted cheery tone, so I looked at everything, that happened in that light.
I figured Kase and Yamada might have an argument over this, which would lead to open communication, and ultimately bringing them closer together. The spectre of, unhealthy jealously, and domestic violence, never crossed my mind.

If it's worth analyzing, it's worth overanalyzing to within an inch of its life.

Awesome.

Given that Kasumi has shown that she isn't really interested in romance and only wants friends, I feel like you're just reading into things you want to see and are going to be disappointed either way.

Especially with how obsessed you seem to be about the story's future and it demanding it play out in one particular way instead of just enjoying it as it happens.

If every character who declared, "They weren't interested in romance" stuck to that, it would destroy, the plot to 90% of romcoms, and shoujo romance, stories.
I just don't want to read 20+ chapters of Kasumi leading her growing harem through the same old tired plots, hot springs/public baths trips, school festivals/plays, shopping trips, visiting sick friends, cooking lessons, sleep overs, and don't forget the ever popular candy exchange on valentine's day (an absolute must, for this kind of manga), and have it go nowhere. If the author can deliver an in interesting climax, without a romantic hookup, I'm on board, otherwise make with the kissy face.
Hey, I could be totally wrong, and the author could surprise me, and go in completely new direction, but from what I've seen so far, I don't think so.

last edited at Apr 9, 2018 5:38AM