I see, so, Hiroko was once in Ayaka's shoes. But what I don't get is that, she knows she isn'r as cruel as the Senpai she once pursued. So, why is she so afraid of reciprocating Ayaka's feelings?

Do we know that the Senpai was cruel? She might have suffered from what Hiroko is afraid of. She was apologizing here for getting Hiroko involved in something.

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 4:57PM

Was this plotline axed? I get a feeling like somebody told Sal Jiang to rush through this arc and move to the next posthaste - to try and salvage the story.

Didn't work very well then lmao. One more vol and it's over.

Sal's stories are always about this length. They do shorter series. So nothing out of the ordinary. You can follow their twitter, etc. They're still discussing this series, since it just ended recently. This story was well received in Japan from what I could tell (and Sal's popular anyway), so I see no indication that anything happened.

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 5:01PM

People, I understand some things might need to more clear for those of us who are more literal but there is no need for this to escalate so much...

Very true but that ship seems to have sailed, unfortunately. Just gotta trudge through it, and I'm not replying to those anymore. Lol After the family comment with little response, I got it.

.I hope she can find someone who is a good match for her

That large woman at the bar nearly strangled her last time. She'd be popular there.

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 2:32PM

I think it's pretty realistic given the circumstances. There's over the top scenarios and gags on one hand and on the other hand realistic issues that gay women face in their day to day lives.

Agreed, about your love triangle comment. And yeah, agreed again, here. All her hangups were laid out clear, there's not much else to do to make them clearer. It's complicated dealing with whatever her past is, being gay in a corporate environment within a socially conservative country, being 13 years older, and also being her boss.

I especially love the line asking Hiroko something like "what has been making you lie to yourself." This line further solidifies the idea that she's not been fully dense but instead in denial (a big difference). She's been running from the truth she almost realized in that earlier chapter when she got sick in her stomach (which was a hint). Guess we'll find out an extra reason why, now.

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 2:00PM

Yeah, Ayaka wasn't into it but Risa knew she was in a precarious position after Ayaka told her that she wasn't interested back in an earlier chapter. She pushed for this situation as a last chance attempt and that's fair! But Ayaka just isn't romantically attracted to her even with Hiroko temporarily out of the mix (but not really). Seemed like Ayaka was "out of it" on all their dates. I really see them as sisterly and I think she does too, as she couldn't wrap her mind around looking at Risa in a romantic way at all.

Hopefully they can talk through this moment but that'll take Risa's being OK with remaining a best friend. It's not like Ayaka pushed for this, she seemed to accommodate the request to be nice. I'd hate for Risa to blame Ayaka for not have feelings when Ayaka already told her this a long time ago. Risa makes Ayaka happy but as a friend and that should eventually be OK too. Risa, go to that bar! Lots of great people there.

Now Hiroko is getting into her background! Great. Should be interesting to see what incidents might have raised her concern levels and how Ayaka the pitbull can maybe represent a different path. "Senpai" seems to have some parallels to her current situation.

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 12:34PM

Basically I asked because I think Ayaka×Risa is a detriment to the overall story so I wonder how people think it could work or still be fulfilling in some way, other than "Hiroko sucks, Risa is best girl" so therefore she should get the girl.
Call me By Your Name arguably has some problematic aspects but I loved it all the same. I don't think it endorses whatever is happening. It's just a story about a young man falling in love with someone older that is arguably not the best for him. I like it because I've liked older people and at the end of the day you grow up and realize that sometimes the age gap is not the best thing in the world.

Yeah I know your stance I was just interested in your thoughts. And I haven't seen Call Me yet but maybe I should based on your description. I generally agree with your "Hiroko sucks, so Risa" idea. A lot of the times it feels like we're endorsing who we would personally like or date, rather than who the characters have expressed interest or compatibility with. But that's another discussion and people seem extra testy about Risa as it is lol. Thanks for the response.

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 8:57AM

Write clearly. Reread before posting. Mind ambiguity. Remember implied is not the same as stated and context is not the same as text. Don't expect other people to intuit your meanings. Say exactly what you want to say, in no uncertain terms; no more, no less. And if you fail, accept your responsibility; don't throw the blame onto others.

You read my multiple comments and what I was responding to and thought I meant Ayaka didn't like Risa as a friend? There's the responsibility of the writer but also responsibilities of the reader as well. But that's the last I'll say on that. It's become a bit dramatic.

But what are your ideas of how Ayaka could end up with Risa?

I like your ideas actually, if it were to happen. I'm not sure if you're going to get concrete responses to your question though, honestly. The issue is that the manga has 24 chapters and with it's normal pacing, there's not enough time to have two relationships created and one ended within 10 or so chapters. So for those reasons alone I don't see it. But I appreciate the basics of the idea.

Personally, even if the series were longer, I wouldn't see a potential RisaxAyaka for all the in-text reasons I've stayed in my past comments but yeah. I mean even now her being pushed to Risa is because everyone is telling her she should give up. Risa is saying it, Hiroko seems to be pushing her to Risa. This is again a situation where Ayaka's agency is being ignored. She's being tested and at a crossroads. She's said she doesn't want Risa and only wants Hiroko but everyone in the manga (and I guess outside it) is telling her what's best for her.

It's being set up again for Ayaka to scream the title from the hilltops (exclamation point and all) in a defiant, self assertive way. It's character progress or development through an obstinate continuation of the character's journey. Obstacles are telling her what to do and (I think) she will say "No! I know what I want! And I'll get it! Watch me!" The joke is that Hiroko is the mountain she's heroically (sometimes comically) scaling. She's always been tough and determined right? That's part of what makes her endearing.

Anyway, how was "Call me By Your Name" BTW?

last edited at Jun 17, 2023 6:13AM

Hiroko is obviously attracted to Ayaka and she feels jealous when the male manager pets her, idk why people are saying she's not. I think ppl are making her into this cruel, uncaring character because she's clueless and a womanizer (though she's obviously not seducing Ayaka.) When... in fact she's being responsible and caring by considering that there's a power dynamic at play (she's Ayaka's boss), that you don't sh!t where you eat, and that for various reasons she cannot give her what she needs right now. I'm so looking forward to her figuring out how to reconcile her lesbianism w her professional life and how to keep lasting relationships <3 and most of all, I'm looking forward to her getting together with Ayaka!

Yeah, it'll be interesting once they get to whatever her corporate history was like. She's got valid reasons to avoid work relationships (and to try and push Ayaka to Risa) but we know she likes Ayaka and that Ayaka is a pitbull: so the second that workplace cautious streak cracks, Ayaka will likely be there ready to pounce.

last edited at Jun 16, 2023 7:41PM

Love the art and especially the scene transitions in this series.

last edited at Jun 16, 2023 6:30PM

Next time, put it into writing...

You cut off my full comment which said "Ayaka already said she doesn't like Risa to her face, after Risa confessed." "After she confessed" is key. What's also key is the entire rest of my comment which discussed romantic interests and discussed Risa's being a great friend such as this: "Ayaka is within her right, not to view her romantically, she's said as much and that's the end of that." I can't really help you beyond that. I mean they are obviously friends, I didn't think that was debatable. I can understand if you like Risa but this is a bit out of hand. Especially comments like this:

Rereading what you've written before hitting send is usually a good idea.

Or

You only like the people you want to fuck rn?
I'll take in that case that you don't like your father, you don't like your mother, you don't like your brothers and you don't like your sisters. Well, either that or your family life is Taiyaki-level of interesting.

So we have one commenter bringing in my family relations and we have you doing this? Let's be respectful.

As for Risa and Ayaka: if you want to believe they have a potential future we'll have to agree to disagree. I've already made my points, I think. So, we'll see.

last edited at Jun 16, 2023 3:58PM

I'll take that bet, since Ayaka already said she doesn't like Risa to her face, after Risa confessed.

....... "Doesn't like?"
You only like the people you want to fuck rn?
I'll take in that case that you don't like your father, you don't like your mother, you don't like your brothers and you don't like your sisters.

Well, either that or your family life is Taiyaki-level of interesting.

Obviously, I mean romantically. We're talking about dating and confessions. I don't understand what you mean? Are you being purposefully uncharitable or what? I'm not sure what my family life has to do with it.

last edited at Jun 16, 2023 11:52AM

Lol. What?
I mean, we can see Hiroko's thoughts, but Ayaka and everyone else in the story cannot.
From the perspective from everyone but us omniscient viewers, Hiroko has no interest in Ayaka, and that makes Ayaka and Risa exactly the same, not Risa worse.
Also, Ayaka didn't say "no, I'm not attracted to you", she just likes someone else. Weirdly enough, people can change...

I'm talking from the position of potential ends. Yes, Ayaka can not read Hiroko's thoughts but we can and we know that Hiroko does like Ayaka. Therefore, we know that Ayaka is in a potentially better position than Risa, whose love interest already denied her and moved on. And I already pre-addressed the idea of Ayaka's feelings changing when I mentioned "drastic changes," etc. I highly doubt that happens either way, because she's been with Risa for over a year and yet has shown no indication of ever considering her, even after Risa's confession and with all the troubles with Hiroko. Ayaka hasn't once even thought deeply about Risa in that way. It would take a sudden shift, for her to see Risa differently than she's always seen her and I see no indication that, that is coming or likely. She treats Risa more like a sister and any other further interactions they've had have been pushed by Risa, like how Ayaka pushes Hiroko.

But I really hope Ayaka stops pursuing Hiroko now cause otherwise she will look like an idiot.

I think it's a bit complicated for her. Because even here with this "rejection" Hiroko never said she doesn't like Ayaka. She only said she doesn't believe she could make her happy. Ayaka could view that as just another obstacle, to show that she's fine being secret at work or to show Hiroko that she doesn't have to worry as much.

last edited at Jun 16, 2023 10:25AM

Just to be clear, I wouldn't mind if Risa got Ayaka (and it was done well). It just won't happen.

Wanna bet?

I'll take that bet, since Ayaka already said she doesn't like Risa to her face, after Risa confessed. Have we forgotten what happened earlier in the manga?

Risa is doomed and knows it. That's why she's being so aggressive, she's basically Diana at this point. She's great and an amazing friend but she's not owed someone's love because of that. They are not "made for each other" because only the individual gets to decide that and Ayaka has been around her and has decided, no. This is a lesson for real life as well. Similarly, Hiroko is not bad just because she didn't give someone the love they wanted. Denying reciprocation is not wrong. No one is owed anything and love is not transactional. You don't put in your 9-to-5, expect love to come like a salary and get angry at the person when it doesn't. Ayaka is within her right, not to view her romantically, she's said as much and that's the end of that.

I feel for Risa however she's doing what Ayaka is doing but much worse. At least Hiroko likes Ayaka and is only avoiding her because of a desire to remain closeted at work. Ayaka has point blank said she's not really interested and has never shown a hint of going back on that, or even considering it further. Risa can find another great woman from the bar, honestly. They hounded her last time and are also lovely. Otherwise she's unfortunately setting herself up for failure, unless something drastic happens or she's just someone Ayaka settles for after giving up on Hiroko. I'd rather she avoid that.

last edited at Jun 16, 2023 6:24AM

I love this series.

Tbf, after seeing the whole scene with Hiroko at the meeting with the other managers, I can understand why she doesn’t want to be out about this. I mean despite her being the most valuable worker and core of her team, those old dudes were still trying to encourage her to quit, get married, and have kids bc she’s a woman, with like only one of them disagreeing. If they already subconsciously discriminate against her now, it’d probably get worst in the future if they knew she was a Lesbian, the work field is brutal and sometimes it things like that that could be the start for them to actively replace her.

Yeap. Good point. Would likely be a lot worse and she knows it. I'd actually forgotten about that chapter.

last edited at Jun 15, 2023 4:37PM

I don't get the peepz who say Risa is no good or has no chance. There's nothing about her that is a red flag; in fact, when I try to recall what we know about her, I can only think of good things. So far, Ayaka and Risa are friends; and Ayaka doesn't think of her as a romantic interest because Hiroko is the only one for Ayaka right now... but it's a fact that Ayaka likes Risa a lot, and like can lead to like-like, and like-like can lead to love. Risa's time may very well come in the near future; there's no reason why it wouldn't.

It's not because she has no chances according to their characters, it's just because in this kind of setup, the friend who's secretly in love with the protag never ends up together with them

Yeah Risa is great but it's because Ayaka has said plainly that she doesn't like Risa romantically. It's not a secret anymore, Ayaka already knows Risa's feelings for her and already said no. That's the real relationship ender. Risa is aggressive partly because she knows this too.

last edited at Jun 15, 2023 3:26PM

This was well written in my opinion, but I don't think Ayaka would have to wait around for Hiroko, nor did she ask her that, I know, but me personally wouldn't be happy dating someone in the closet, I know there are different circumstances in life, but being out since I was 14, I just can't. I'd like a third person to appear, I would say Risa but Ayaka doesn't seem to like her, I just don't feel Hiroko and Ayaka are a good pair now and I hope Ayaka won't insist on it, chasing someone can get really tiresome.

Yeah it's all up to Ayaka. As you said, Hiroko has never been the pursued. Ayaka has always willingly chased Hiroko, despite Hiroko's attempts to create distance. Hiroko, here, gives Ayaka a clear out and explains why. But Ayaka never gets the chance to say whether she's fine with being in a closeted relationship. Ayaka has never expressed any issues with the idea, it's all in Hiroko's head (as usual). Mind you, it would only be a work situation. Outside of work they would be fine. I just don't see Ayaka giving up over something like that. I do agree, Risa is a no go. It all depends on how much Ayaka is determined and she's only shown herself to be super determined. Now she knows the core issue so she's not swinging in the dark, she can break Hiroko down better. Maybe show her she doesn't need to be as afraid (though that's debatable considering the real world).

last edited at Jun 15, 2023 1:38PM

She's made comments about it and characters have hinted at it a lot but now she's said it clearly for Ayaka. She really has just decided to remain closeted at work, for obvious reasons and believes (wrongly, I think) that she can't make Ayaka truly happy as a result. She rejected Ayaka nicely, but not fully, since she actually does like her.

Plenty of people unfortunately have to navigate decisions like that when in historically hostile or precarious environments. It's perfectly understandable that she wouldn't trust Ayaka's ability to keep her secret (gay or not) and honestly it's not out of the realm of possibility that Ayaka will still "out her" accidently, even now. She's taking a personal and potentially professional risk, as Ayaka's pretty loud and obvious. It's unfortunate that Ayaka met Hiroko at work because it's clear they would be fine if Ayaka weren't a coworker (or if Japanese, or any, corporate environments didn't breed distrust).

Still, it was a circumstantial rejection, which Ayaka can come back from. Hiroko clearly likes her a lot so it might not be as difficult to recover from as it seems right now. Ayaka will have a lot to think about, indeed.

I did like Risa's force here though. She's putting in the work but she's honestly in the same (but worse) position as Ayaka. At least for Ayaka, Hiroko's issues are only work related. For Risa, Ayaka just isn't romantically interested at all and there's not much coming back from that. She's setting herself up for heartache.

last edited at Jun 15, 2023 1:30PM

If Hiroko really wanted Ayaka to stay away, she could stop jerking around with her emotions like this. :/ I feel like Hiroko just enjoys hurting other women, be it by loving and leaving them in the lesbian bar or insisting on both maintaining this facade and giving Ayaka the wrong idea about her. Mayne not enjoys, but she is a cowardly and weak person at heart who has no courage to either be honest or commit to the lie (actually get married so her beard can protect her closet key).

I heard someone say she deserves love even with her damage, and she does but her first steps should be finding a new job where she can live out of the closet and leave women, espeically Ayaka alone. This is advice for anyone reading: Sort out your life before seeking romance or sex unless you have your lies properly backed up and sorted out and ESPECIALLY don't keep being needlesly affectionate toward someome after making a big deal out of rejecting them. No amount of past trauma allows you to drag others into your drama especially if you insist on being untruthful.

Remember that Hiroko has only been the pursued. She has never pursued Ayaka. She's not really involving Ayaka in anything. Ayaka is willingly involving herself. Hiroko also does not get to follow Ayaka to her private moments like we can. She has never been in a position to notice Ayaka's hurt feelings and would never assume those feelings were about her anyway. Ayaka deliberately shows Hiroko only her fun (and sometimes drunk) side. So I wouldn't say Hiroko has ever willingly or knowingly hurt Ayaka. In the beginning she didn't even think Ayaka was gay. Then her caution around the workplace led to her second form of denial in an attempt to avoid the uncomfortable reality. The most she's done is lie to keep herself hidden in the workplace, as endless amounts of closeted people do. So really she's been caring the entire time, just oblivious, in different forms of denial and cautious around the workplace. Hiroko has just gone about her days, going to work and being a good team leader. Her relationships at the bar have not been in detail. We do not know that she was a bad person to date, just that she liked to date a lot. Outside of work she's been shown to be completely fine, just like the other bar goers who we like. All of her issues seem to stem from the workplace. And I can't blame her for being that way considering what the workplace is like and what Japanese work places are noted to be like for unconventional people.

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 7:53PM

Well, yeah. But go figure. All we ever have is the image of people we build in our mind, based on the "them" they present to us. And almost inevitably, we fall for people before our successive approximations from seeing them in many situations get very reliable. You fall in love based on the information you have, not the information you want.

And yes, Ayaka is somewhat lacking in social sensibilities. And yes, her love is somewhat selfish, driving her to do somewhat foolish things. But personally, I don't really respect a love that doesn't have at least a bit of that in it. I don't feel like someone really loves a person hard if they're not willing to push themselves for it. Ayaka's a bit extreme.

OK, now this is a serious point. And, Ayaka IS possessive and overbearing and doesn't get the hint. On the other hand, up to this latest one all Hiroko's dodges, since they were designed to deflect a presumed-STRAIGHT girl's supposedly unintentional flirting, were almost perfectly calculated to fail to add up to something that actually turned down genuine advances by a gay girl. Now she has finally explicitly turned Ayaka down acknowledging Ayaka as a gay girl wanting to ask her out, and it has provoked a major crisis for Ayaka, which would have been a crisis even if Hiroko wasn't lying in her rejection--that just complicates it.

Just commenting to say I thought your assessment was really interesting, especially about what we define as love and how we can truly "know" a person before falling in love, but also about the crossroads Ayaka is now at (how this rejection is different from the others). Also this was a past interaction, so it's perfectly likely that what started as admiration or inquisitiveness, turned into romantic feelings. Perfectly natural and happens a lot, we all have to start somewhere. I thought all of it was interesting but I don't want to quote and repost the full longer comment so I took out snippets. I'd only disagree with the last paragraph but that's neither here nor there.

Quite the change?? I wonder if that was before or after she befriended her friend

Before since it seems Hiroko is who got Ayaka to open to the other coworkers and she met Risa at work.

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 2:09PM

Hiroko continues to be nice. No wonder Ayaka got interested in her. Going to be a hard hill to climb though since she's up against Hiroko's desire to keep her sexuality from being known at work, and her denial that stems from that desire. I don't know how you get Hiroko to accept the relationship, when she seems to fear what getting into a relationship with a coworker might mean for her sexual privacy. Tough scenes but Ayaka is up for the job, I think. Hiroko has to decide whether her growing feelings for Ayaka supercedes the consequences of being outed at work. I can't imagine what that would be like in a Japanese work place. She's got to get over that denial first though, she can only pretend not to notice Ayaka for so long, especially with Risa's being so lovely and spunky as well.

last edited at Jun 13, 2023 12:51PM

And because I am an old fart with lots of experience in both life and love, I can remember the times when I, too, crippled myself and my romantic efforts by needlessly second-guessing myself. That fear that, no matter what I do, it's probably going to be wrong and I'm gonna blow it and ruin everything.

Agreed but it's not so much self doubt as it is fear of being outed (and of course, her case of "density" that seems to come from it). She's alluded to as much a few times. She doesn't want to be outed at work and therefore doesn't want to date a coworker. She can't trust that a coworker (even a potentially lesbian one) will keep her secret. She was cornered by a coworker and nearly outed by force-ish (unintentionally, yes). But yikes! The panic. And of course she lies to protect herself. Ayaka is amazing and tough for sticking through all this but she is also kind of loud and out there, to be fair. I might also wonder if I could initially trust her not to out us both and possibly make life miserable at work for a career-woman. I always imagine what things might have been like when Hiroko was Ayaka's age and what things she might have seen in that male dominate space.

If Ayaka weren't a coworker I doubt any of these difficulties happen (the story says they wouldn't). Ayaka, however being younger has no such fear (yet?) and has likely not been "around the block" enough to have been burdened by that cautious streak. They have an interesting understated generational divide in how they view the world and how open it is to their sexuality. Of course, Ayaka's determination to overcome these boundaries and force a new viewpoint for Hiroko is fun and endearing (though sometimes difficult for all parties). Seeing Hiroko struggle against her desire to stay hidden while also juggling her growing desire for Ayaka is also fun. Then there's Risa, who is also great and has her own really interesting dynamics within the story that simultaneously pushes Hiroko and forces Ayaka to truly think about what she wants and what shes's willing to go through to get it but this post is long enough.

last edited at Jun 12, 2023 7:56PM

Maybe a hot take

A freezing cold take, given that most everybody in this thread but me agrees with you.

Count me in. It's 2 against the world lol.

Called it lol. I hate Hiroko too now, she's such a jerk... not sure how she's gonna redeem herself....
...That being said I still love how this is panning out so far. It's this weird mix of over the top and also realistic at the same time in how some people just lie about being gay and hide it like it's the plague. I just really hope she redeems herself cause she sank really low lol...
Like obviously dating Risa doesn't make sense for me cause Ayaka is obviously not attracted to her but not sure I'd like her welcoming Hiro with open arms once she's all regretful and stuff... she should probably dump her for real. A person like that would be a pain to deal with. She'd be obsessed with hiding the relationship. No wonder she's a "womanizer" or whatever. I doubt she can even actually keep a girl lol...

I love your responses! She definitely fumbles the bag while desperately trying to keep work and personal life completely separate. Things might have been a lot easier if Ayaka didn't work there and was just some girl at the bar lol. It should be said that Ayaka cornering her in the office and loudly trying to forcefully out her is not right either. I can't imagine that anyone would cosign that, in a corporate office in Japan, no less. That's a panic inducing moment for sure, and definitely for Hiroko who feels safer in the closet at work.

last edited at Jun 11, 2023 7:42PM

Sal Jiang is really good at creating flawed characters and Hiroko might be the best that she's ever done in that category. She is all about appearance, whether it's hers or Ayaka's, she's a two-faced liar and her game is so bad. Risa's assessment is perfectly correct. It makes you root for Ayaka to wise up.

Haha, yeah she's a trip. Sal is great for that.

last edited at Jun 11, 2023 2:59PM