It makes some sense to me. Threatening Misa at this point is likely more effective for manipulating Io than threatening Io herself. Future contact between Hase and Waka provide an in - they can say they're doing it to protect Io and will stop if Io gives up Misa. Once Io distances herself, out of context information like photos could be used to try to convince Misa that Io is actually choosing Hase. This will help the unhinged evil villain of cred of team mom, that they would use information about Io that way. Misa can do whatever is a level above kicking trashcans and try to reassert herself. Then they can reaffirm their relationship since in reality they were always 100% comitted to each other.

Or something like that, since that was way too specific. Whether either of their careers survives is another question. They seem to have no leverage here.

She also looks this way when Hase is directing her in early chapters, before the sexual assault and with no physical contact. My interpretation is that Hase is the first person she subconsciously enjoyed telling her what to do and being in charge of her. She wouldn't have wanted to do anything with her for stated reasons: Hase loves her mom, she has a professional relationship with Hase, and she's known Hase since she was a child. Then there was the unwanted sexual assault (as oppose to the wanted ones by Misa), which likely permanently damaged Io's trust.

We know that, prior to these events, she valued Hase and saw her behavior as following from her job as manager. She says Hase walking in on her masturbation is the first time she felt uncomfortable with what Hase was doing, meaning she had felt okay with what came before. Hase, a valued interpersonal relationship and trusted person, was very different than a random person off the street.

Ultimately there is some ambiguity. Since the author is the type of writer to "go there" in every sense of the word, I interpret it this way. I wouldn't say someone who is blushing wants or deserves to be assaulted because that would be insane, whether in reference in this story or real life. Most do still find people they aren't dating attractive sometimes, which can stem from behaviors or personality traits in addition to appearance.

That has already been used as a source of tension for Misa that pushed her to engage in some questionable behavior, so it wouldn't be surprising if that was used to fuel future narrative conflict.

last edited at Jan 13, 2025 7:39PM

The spanish came out on this a while back. It really feels like a setup chapter, showing us how Waka is going to get into contact with Hase, Io seeking more independence from Mom/Hase using new (and likely still fragile) confidence from her relationship with Misa, and Hase escalating likely leading her to stay with Misa. Misa had been privately considering that last part privately already, but she explicitly told Io that Io could come whenever she wanted. Then villain mom will need to do whatever she is considering to try to regain control of Io.

Is that last shot of Io panting and blushing a sign that Hase being violent on her actually does the trick too, or is it just she's afraid?

Io with Hase is often drawn in a way that's similar to how she is with Misa. It's likely it does to some significant extent, but she is also afraid and not comfortable with what Hase is doing. Being attracted to someone doesn't necessarily mean you want to do things with them for real, nor does not wanting to do things with someone necessarily mean you see them as unattractive.

last edited at Jan 13, 2025 8:14AM

@draieck

It's been a long time since I last come or even check this manga's thread (sometimes it gets too much and could affect my ability to enjoy reading the manga itself).
Seems I made the right decision to stay out after all the arguments here, which I guess wouldn't have any resolution at all, people are different and doesn't always need to be on the same page anyway. But, I did appreciate those who have such interesting takes and points for the three characters, it was really fun to read and worth to spend the time.

More or less where I am, as someone who participated in the thread and made at least a couple questionable posts myself. I am doing a reread now. This is while keeping in mind what I learned in later chapters or what forum members pointed out, as well as people's different takes. It feels like a series that rewards you for thinking about it deeply, with many nuances and small details.

Maybe this is also part of why we have gotten into arguments. We get emotionally invested in our reading of the story while we process and think about it.

last edited at Jan 2, 2025 9:39PM

She had a mental breakdown because Koto introduced her as her relative, despite knowing Koto had no choice in the matter. As Erika observed, this happened because Aya views herself as a child, and hates herself for it. Aya then proceeded to put her strong front right back on and has never even attempted to deal with this.

I don't think you're insane or have bad judgment. I'm sorry if my posts have come across as aggressive, but I don't ever intend to personally attack anyone. I enjoy fictional analysis. I just disagree with your analysis of this particular fictional character.

I appreciate the attempt at understanding. In this case, what happened from my perspective is that someone focused on a very tangential point in one of my posts that I didn't feel strongly about, didn't seem to see it as a valid opinion for me to have (a separate idea from agreeing with it, something I never asked from anyone) even though I am weakly committed to it, phrased observations that I had posted earlier like they were something I disagreed with or didn't know, and then continued to talk about it about after I indicated it wasn't something I was open to talking about more.

I am of course the one who keeps responding, but that's why I've been trying to disengage with this topic. It has not been fun for me.

I think that for example Aya responded to that discomfort by thinking about why Koto might need to treat her like a child and not be open about their relationship, observing Koto see if Koto actually saw her as a child, distanced herself from Koto when Koto indicated that she did see Aya as a child and that Koto didn't think Aya could relate to her as an equal, made connections with various people so she is living independently and not reliant on any one person and can better relate to Koto as an equal, and is making friends who are willing to treat her as an adult or equal so that she doesn't have to place all that burden on Erika and Koto. It would be unreasonable to expect her to fully resolve this in the week or month or whatever we've seen, but she appears to be making progress in her self image and social relations in a more mature way than some people three times her age.

However, I don't need or want anyone to have this same interpretation, which even I think could end up being wrong or not the full truth. Whether she's actually making progress or just faking it while burying the feeling isn't possible to determine in such a short amount of time, while concluding she's likely burying it and much worse than we've explicitly seen is as reasonable an interpretation as any.

Edit: I want to say I'm likely to be afk for a few days. Interpret my lack of response as due to this, rather than due to me being prickly and childishly hung up on wanting to be acknowledged for saying something first. That's also the case, but not why I am not responding in this case.

last edited at Dec 30, 2024 10:25AM

I'm starting to understand the dislike of moral arguments. I relate to getting very invested in stories, but this lens in discussions seems to lead to interpersonal conflicts more reliably than meaningful discussion.

In any case, my position is as stated: Aya as a character in a story has demonstrated more ability to confront her issues and adapt, rather than digging her hole deeper. This may not be the whole truth as we learn more about Aya, who is presented mysteriously, or I could be insane and have bad judgement, but then everyone will have to accept one of those existing and having internet access.

I never think you are one of Erika defenders. But l got to admit l hope everyone turn on her because what she had done seven years ago (fought Aya and wished her away) is so unforgivable.

It seems likely to me that wishing Aya away was a de facto an attempt to vent her feelings in a less harmful way. She couldn't talk to Koto and talking to Aya led to her and Aya both feeling worse. Telling someone she couldn't trust as much would be likely to lead to her secret getting out. Making a tanabata wish was like a level above venting on her instagram, except it actually happened. She regrets it from that point on.

I understand your position to be that a proper friend wouldn't have found themselves wishing harm on their friend in the first place, so that won't change anything for you. To me it's rather relatable, as most of us have likely found ourselves with negative emotions we didn't know what do with at some point.

What I quoted was from earlier than what you quoted - or in another words, this was already my opinion when you quoted me. You were taking a different message from my post than what I intended.

That said, I don't have a problem with the idea of an individual 14 year old needing less emotional support than an individual 21 year old. You may think it doesn't apply here, but it's not an unthinkable proposition in general. If you think that I am wrong and that there is no 14 year who needs less emotional support than even a single 21 year old, regardless of their respective circumstances, then I wouldn't mind responding to that idea if you explained more.

Still, in terms of this story, I never commented on the degree any of them need support in absolute (rather than relative) terms, always believed they were all struggling, and have never said otherwise in any post. Aya would appear to be doing the best emotionally to me, but we also know she is good at hiding her suffering. Having a debate that hinges on hidden, yet to be revealed information would be very annoying, so I'd rather say my mind isn't made up and leave it at that.

last edited at Dec 29, 2024 6:40PM

While I was always be the #1 white knight of Erikasama and ever ready to rush to m'lady's defence*, I would like to point out that this is how I described Aya back on page 39.

The reading of Aya as remarkable and selfless doesn't totally fit to me. She made Koto confess multiple times before giving an answer, she seems to have been testing Koto to see if Koto would still love her (even later thinking, this isn't the love I was looking for or something like that, rather than that being in a relationship like that would be bad for Koto), she was relieved her only surviving family member was dead, and she may have had some role in her disappearance.

This to me reads like someone who is afraid of commitment and emotionally stunted in some ways. This makes sense if we think of her as someone who had to 'grow up fast' to meet her responsibilities and never got to have a typical childhood. A child like that will seem mature relative to other kids who are goofing off, but they can only meet those obligations by neglecting other areas of their life. This would explain her past desire to escape and be free, as she would have felt burdened by all the expectations she had to meet.

The reason I said I think she needs less emotional support is because I have more faith in her ability to work out her issues on her own over time with a regular amount of support, whereas Koto and Erika seem to be digging their hole deeper at every opportunity. I'm not very invested in ranking them, however, nor am I very invested in the idea of Aya needing less.

I do think it's exceedingly unlikely they need exactly the same amount of support in the same way it's unlikely for three people to need exactly the same size living space. This doesn't mean I think any of them don't need emotional support or a decent living environment, but the specifics vary with time and circumstance.

@Blastaar

I don’t mean this dismissively, but I have always thought that we can take everything you say here for granted. As I have said before, it’s theoretically possible that this story will later morph into a Qualia the Purple-type “Erika alters the fabric of the entire universe with her Tanabata-wish powers” fantasy, but there’s absolutely no indication at this point that the author has any interest in doing that.

That might be unlikely, but Erika having inherited latent spiritual powers that could be activated under the right circumstances would be as good an explanation for what’s happened as any.

I think won't be the case because of the part about the couple who broke up despite making tanabata wishes to be together, only to end up together 7 years later. There was some reason for the author to include this information about fringe characters. In the lack of other explanation (eg, spirits and more magic could be introduced later and that would be fine), I think the tanabata works when two people very strongly and sincerely combine their wishes, meaning Aya also wished that she would disappear. This would seem more interesting for a psychological drama, given that we won’t likely be getting any cool exorcism scenes from Erika.

*This too is a joke.

last edited at Dec 29, 2024 3:47PM

@Blastaar

This is your usual bullshit—unless middle-school Erika was aware that she had the supernatural power to send Aya into limbo with a Tanabata wish.

I think we can say she didn't know. She finds the idea that Aya would come back with a Tanabata wish to be strange and then is surprised when Aya really returns. It's possible her grandma told her "by the way you have magic spirit powers" and Erika didn't take it seriously, but Erika herself didn't expect it to work this way.

She was also probably trying to convince herself what happened to Koto wasn't her fault because Tanabata doesn't work that way. Maybe this is why she didn't try sooner, since attempting it would be acknowledging the possibility it was her fault. With Aya's return, the seeming confirmation of Erika having caused the disappearance would have pushed her guilt to a new level, which is mental state we have been seeing in the chapters.

last edited at Dec 29, 2024 7:48AM

Most important information this chapter: Another chapter of Erika wearing pants and Koto wearing a skirt / baggy clothing. Like Koto is trying to hide almost.

That being the most important information was a joke, but this was a good chapter in terms of Erika. We see her being careful to try to have a good impact on everyone, including drunk Koto. This is despite snarking at people and questioning herself. The fact that she's not sure if she "has a right" to confess suggests to me that getting with Koto is in fact not her primary goal, despite it clearly being something she wants a lot.

If you wanted to trigger someone's PTSD, you can probably find lots of ways to do this where that would not be ridiculous for them to react that way. Some other people (ie not you) actually do enjoy tormenting mentally ill people, who are also people who may be isolated and otherwise benefit a lot from online communities.

This, while being unrelated to anything you did, disproves that people should say what they want if it's online. Whether online or not, we have to be thinking about the consequences of speech, while hopefully still allowing for freedom of thought as much as possible.

last edited at Dec 28, 2024 12:02PM

I suppose I had the opposite experience in that I had someone ignoring my vulnerabilities, making various promises to me that were not actually possible to keep, and then having that end really badly for me in a way where I could not be alive if I had made slightly different choices. This helped me in the end, but in a more literal "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" way.

I don't blame this person because I think she believed this would be the best way to help me, while I knew enough to make my own decisions. Still, I think caution is warranted and would not want to date someone who entirely lacked a support network other than myself. I would want to help them start establishing a support network that could persist past a romantic relationship instead. This is a different factor than mental health per se, as I would not mind dating someone with even a 'serious' psychiatric diagnosis.

Other conclusions could be made, but, with Io's situation being very extreme, the chance of something like this ending well in real life would be quite low.

last edited at Dec 28, 2024 11:23AM

I appreciate everyone's understanding. I want for people to feel comfortable continuing to share their unique perspectives, with even the pants discourse leading to people sharing insights about the story. My own conduct is still clearly lacking when I express that in a way where I am condescending or not properly listening to others. So I must assume my own blame as far as that goes.

And isn't internet a place letting people say whatever they want? As long as they don't insult users, l can't see any wrong of it. I saw some users here had made post making others feel rude and condescending. Why are you only aiming at me? Because l hate Erika? Well, that would never change ┑(￣Д ￣)┍

Well, not strictly. Some of what people want to say could be a crime, like organizing a group to murder me would be, while other choices could have a bad impact on others like triggering someone's PTSD. I'm intentionally using examples you haven't done to make a broader point.

That said, I understand why people would have a strong reaction to being able to change Erika's face with a man's. Even if your real position is "I would otherwise accept Erika's character design on a male character and I find it strange that the fashionable model has only worn a skirt as part of a costume" (I'm like 90% sure you think this), a reader could misunderstand the phrasing you used. The reader could also be a woman who has been judged harshly for their clothing choices, which typically leads to feeling defensive. This person would be less uncomfortable and more receptive to what you want to say if you made it clear you aren't one who likes to police how women dress.

last edited at Dec 28, 2024 8:47AM

I do agree with Io making choices for herself is progress and would not want to be in charge of Io's choices if she were real. Someone not knowing what's best for themselves I don't see as that controversial. It's very possible for any of us to misjudge this and some people have a worse track record than others. The problem is using someone's lack of knowledge as an excuse to control their life or to call their autonomy into question, which I am not worried about happening with Io since she isn't real.

Of course my words could lead to a reader wanting to control a real person who reminds them of Io. This would be a much bigger issue I hadn't been keeping in mind, but, Gabinomicon, I think you have adequately disclaimed everything. My position here is still Misa is only good for Io relative to Io's terrible situation and that a great number of Io's choices are self destructive in a way that's been intentionally hidden from her by Hase and her mother.

Edit: I would also like to point out that recognizing when someone isn't in a good mental space to make a choice is part of being responsible. This is why eg as an adult you don't date a teenager even if the teenager is really into the idea and the one pursuing you. Some situations are more legal but not really safer. I would likely not date someone as isolated and traumatized as Io, even if that person wanted to date me. My conclusion would be that what she really needs is a friend, especially one who is an outside influence and will stick with her past her mom's machinations. This would be thinking I know better than Io's analogue, but I would be expressing it through altering my own behavior rather than through trying to control theirs.

last edited at Dec 28, 2024 9:58AM

@Gabinomicon

A comparison that, notably, was about finding Misa better than Hase. Regardless of anyone's subjective opinions, Io right now definitely sees them as different and sees Misa as far better, and it's her opinion that matters most wrt if a lover is "good for her". 


The comparison I meant was Io saying: “After I finally managed to get away from Hase san, why would you do something like this too, Misa-san?” Not a very favorable comparison.

We also frequently see Io blushing and similar while being bossed around by Hase, while they have similar aloof, cold demeanors. Misa seems to be aware of the similarities between herself and Hase, making her feel insecure.

It is still true that Io chose Misa and had no hesitation or doubt in doing so, instead saying that it’s because it’s Misa that she’s willing to be obedient. Misa herself is not convinced, fearing that Io is with her out of desperation. The reality appears more complicated.

Misa and Io have both crossed major lines with each other, lines that would be understandable if treated as "unforgivable" by the characters. But they've thus far forgiven each other for these crossed lines, due to the attention and care they give to each other that makes it clear they don't want to violate or hurt each other. They make mistakes, they notice the negative response, they apologize and strive to treat the other better. I think that's pretty sweet, personally. :)

Misa’s supposed remorse has not been very persuasive to me. She sometimes expresses that her actions are wrong, but she continues to do them. For example, she assaulted or attempted to assault Io at least three times. She ignored Io being uncomfortable with sexual acts in public settings three times: initially in the pickup club when Io felt like curtains were insufficient, a second time in the pickup club outside the curtains, and in the latest chapters.

At points she appears more concerned about social consequences, like when she says that seeing Io is a one-time thing so “if she wakes up, then she wakes up.” Rather than properly apologizing to Io when she finds out Io was awake, her first impulse is to think Io is there to criticize her and to get annoyed.

With the latest chapters, I am pretty sure she actually feels bad, but I don’t think she has learned her lesson in any meaningful way. It’s more likely she repeats her supposed mistakes, given her past behavior, and her understanding of her wrongdoing seems limited to thinking that she needed to take it down a notch.

In contrast, Io hasn’t done anything that bad. Running after someone you see in a crowd because you’re excited to see them again is a nonissue to me. The “stalking” by showing up at Misa’s club at least followed Misa’s request not to come back to Misa’s apartment. This wouldn’t be a very believable misunderstanding from most people, but we know it is with Io. Even if Io needs much explained like you would with a child, she doesn’t repeat a mistake like this after realizing it was wrong.

@SrNevik

Given her past actions and decisions, I don't have much confidence in her judgment about what's "good for her." I understand your point, but I don't see her as a reliable narrator or decision-maker—which seems central to her issues. How she judges these people or these situations is not high on my value chart. I am with thechampionmike95 on this one. Neither woman is presented well here and Misa is only "good for Io" because she has worse actors across from her. I guess the "lesser of two (or three?) evils" wins out though.

Io not knowing what’s good for her is a foundational aspect of her character, I would say. In addition to Io’s young age and lack of experience, she has been made to associate some very destructive behaviors with love and care. This is part of what draws her to Misa in the first place when she could be finding more responsible sadists. The story is set up in the way where Misa is nonetheless her only chance, as otherwise, Io would be completely isolated. Misa is also trying to teach Io to set boundaries with people who aren’t Misa, which is more than anyone else is doing. I would say Misa has been a net positive influence on Io.

Misa meanwhile had given up on love and, while admired by many like Io, appears to not have any non-superficial friends. In that sense, Misa is also very isolated, with Io being her only real emotional connection. Misa protects her public reputation, but not many people besides Io would be willing to accept Misa’s limitations after finding out about them. This makes it easy for me to root for them as a couple. In real life, they would be better off as friends at best, but story wise there is lots of potential for their relationship to develop in both positive and negative ways. Also lots of potential for more crying Io scenes, but we can pretend that’s not why I’m here.

Because it was my turn to misunderstand someone, clearly. I missed that sentence, so the first time I thought it was referenced was Aikosaurus posting a disagreement to me. Though rosetammy has since acknowledged the reality of women's pants.

Apologies if I came across as scolding, in any case. I can go sit in a corner and scold myself instead.

last edited at Dec 27, 2024 2:02PM

I feel like I need to point out no one actually said they think Erika dresses like a man. Just in case anyone is still not getting this. I love you all, but this has to be the most high strung discussion of a comic I've seen.

Rosetammy25 might think skirts are more feminine than pants (they are if by feminine you mean "clothing men don't typically wear," rather than "clothing seen as normatively appropriate for women" like I did), but that's pretty far from saying a woman who wears women's pants is dressing like a man. And Aikosaurus thought I was stereotyping Japanese attitudes as medievally regressive, rather than stating my own attitude.

last edited at Dec 27, 2024 1:14PM

@Aikosaurus

Sorry, I misinterpreted the word precluding indeed.

No problem, this is a thread where we take turns misunderstanding each other.

@rosetammy25

I know there's pants only for the ladies but why Erika never dressed in skirt…

My guess is that, in addition to possibly being known for a type of image, skirts are associated with looking "mature" due to being more common in past times. "Mature" quickly becomes "stuffy" for a younger person trying to look fashionable, while 21 is still fairly young when you get down to it.

Pants also tend to be more practical, so sticking with them when you don't have a compelling reason not to seems understandable to me. Maybe we'll see Erika in a skirt eventually, like in a photo shoot or when she needs to be more formal.

last edited at Dec 27, 2024 10:37AM

I think you are misunderstanding me. I am saying that to me being normatively feminine can involve pants, rather than precluding ("precluding" means "not being possible with") pants. Therefore pants being acceptable doesn't show a lack of pressure to dress femininely as I define the word.

I am also saying I wouldn't mind if we used some other word than feminine to describe the standards around what's seen as the proper way for women to dress.

last edited at Dec 27, 2024 9:35AM

I guess my standards for "femininely" aren't so strict as to preclude pants, so we can go with another word if we want. Implying women in Japan don't wear due to the supposedly alien culture was the type of thing I was wanting to avoid, but I do have the impression that beauty standards are somewhat stricter.

last edited at Dec 27, 2024 8:38AM

Well, that goes to show we shouldn't be making assumptions is never a good idea, while making inflammatory comments about other posters is a bad idea except when it ends up leading to interesting discussion in a thread that would otherwise have languished.

Childish might be going a bit far for Koto to me (maybe because I dress like that lol), but she does dress very simply, like a stereotypical college student I suppose. The exception is the planetarium date with Aya when she was dressing more stylishly. That means she knows how to do it and simply doesn't bother, which is indeed very different from Erika.

I think there's also more pressure for women to dress femininely in Japan, so it might be a bigger departure there. I might be misunderstanding though. I don't mean to be one of the people exaggerating 'cultural differences' like often happens on here.

last edited at Dec 26, 2024 8:24PM

I would say she is better than the manager in some ways. The manager is mostly only concerned about Io's ability to be professionally useful, while we have been shown Misa thinking of Io's emotional well being at various points. Not exactly a high bar, but the manager/Hase and Io's mom both fail to meet it.

We did get Io directly comparing her to the manager last chapter, so I think the similarities between them are intentional. Misa has been committing crimes since the beginning (eg, thinking Io being drunk and almost passed out is 'her chance' even before the hotel assault). Io likes it partially because she was raised to have a poor sense of boundaries. Essentially we're getting a series about two people who are in a very bad place emotionally and are experiencing closeness in the only way they know how, with it likely to get worse in many ways from here.

last edited at Dec 26, 2024 1:25PM

Technically she her chronological age is objectively 21 since it's been 21 years since she was born, but she is not biologically or mentally 21. Kind of like someone who's been put in cryostasis. If you're trying to establish how long it's been since a person was born then you are wanting the chronological age.

Normally we never need to decouple these concepts, so it's confusing to think about. I at first thought '21 year old Aya' was the result having written the wrong name.

last edited at Dec 26, 2024 12:50PM

I wouldn’t say you’re exactly wrong. But as we see, when Aya flees from Koto’s house, she has nowhere to go except to Erika’s. She has to negotiate looking much younger than her chronological age (telling her co-workers she’s 17 when she’s “really” (whatever that means in this context) 21. She’s far behind her (supposed) age cohort in education/work experience.

Most relevantly, Koto and Erika both go back and forth between regarding her (and themselves) as being in the same relation they all were in middle school and coming to terms with the present reality.

I certainly agree their relationship is different, with Aya needing more material support than the other two (but Erika/Koto being much more in need of emotional support). That's true despite it being the same level of support Aya needed before. She nonetheless is solving these issues very quickly and not dependent on any one person, merely accepting assistance from various people who are also getting something out of it.

last edited at Dec 26, 2024 8:55AM

Personally I see Aya as having been pretty consistent, with the others' viewpoint of Aya changing having more to do with them than Aya herself. This has been a very short amount of time for Aya. Aya is of course also changing, but if anything she is more independent and successful than past Aya. She has a respectable job, independent housing, a pro acting gig, and is continuing with her education.

Of course, as I said, I think this is because she is neglecting other areas of her emotional development, but this is another factor in common with past Aya.

last edited at Dec 25, 2024 9:26PM