@Gudetamago I'll just go ahead and quote myself conceding that the scene you mentioned would have made more sense with minor alteration:

For that episode, it would have worked out perfectly if she'd thought to have Touko refer to Yuu as "Yuu, dear" instead of just having Sayaka remark that "something feels off" in general.

"Perfectly" was obviously exaggerating things, but we weren't in nuanced debate mode back then, right?
Obviously, Doujima's remark would have to be altered as well then, but let's look at where it stands currently:

I can very easily accept Maki and Doujima being referred to by their surname as a consequence of them being pretty much the only boys around. Makes sense to me.
You definitely need to stretch a little in a different direction to resolve cognitive dissonance regarding Doujima's remark. It can be done: Doujima, Maki and Yuu are the three first years of the StuCo, yet only one of them is referred to by their first name. That being the case it seems plausible (to me) that Doujima was under the assumption that the elders would refer to their underclassmen by family name. He is presented as a bit of an occasional airhead, so it's plausible that he just hadn't realized this before.

I appreciate that you assume incompetence rather than malice, but I honestly believe it was ambition.
And I maintain that the honorifics just break the flow for me when reading the manga. They feel stilted and awkward to me. I know I'm alone with this perspective in this discussion, but that's just the way it works for me, and I'm willing to have one scene not work out quite as well for the overall increase in QoL.

I probably should heed Blastaar's advice and not make any more puns... because this entire discussion was started over one.

last edited at Sep 6, 2019 5:57AM

@BD: since you've now stated that you're done I'll leave it at what I've said so far. We have different ideas of what localisation can and should do, and that's fine.

Thanks for pointing out the passage of Kobayashi's. I'll only say that I have no issue with what Funimation did with it. It most likely was not a translator that added the line about dragons, but an editor that saw a chance for a small quip.

I think our positions and preferences have had a fair airing by now, so my last word here:

”Apparent similarity” can be substantially misleading, and even more alienating from the origin text than leaving in unfamiliar cultural elements.

Well said, and I'm likewise happy to leave it at that. Besides, I'll be heading off to bed pretty soon either way.

I've enjoyed the discussion. Thanks.

Zormau posted:

Also @BD, in which chapter of Kobayashi's was that mistranslation you mentioned earlier? I'm going through it right now, it's a good read, but I've not yet stumbled across the passage, I think.

It's actually from english dub.

Yeah, I'm looking for the scene so I can have a translation that BD implied would be a more accurate representation.

"Speaking English". They still live in Japan though. That was the point I was making earlier, which you ignored. Even if you change language, it still take place in Japan and so it still should follow Japanese cultural norms. Changing those, because "it works for target audience" and insisting, the original meaning wasn't changed, when you just blatantly admitted it was, is really pretty dishonest here.

Indeed I didn't dedicate as much time and thought to responding to you, sorry about that.
There is no perfect equivalency in translation. Even simply carrying over the honorifics will, in many cases, not be perfectly equivalent. Not only because they're an alien element in English, but also because the audience will not have a uniform concept of what those words entail. Sure, they'll have a rough concept and there will be a lot of overlap and they'll generally get the gist... but don't they also get that from a localisation like the one we got? I think they do.

As Blaastar pointed out, you can't replace everything and match it to culture you're translating it for, because it's not just the way you address other people. Some things simply don't translate, and when you're forcing them to adhere to different culture, it becomes foreign to both.

I think I answered the first of those sentences to Blastaar a few moments ago, referring to similarity and approximation as opposed to equivalency.
As for the target text becoming foreign to both cultures... I don't really see why I should care whether the localised text is now alien to the original language community... They are absolutely not the target audience.

And give us the nightmare that Ace Attorney become later. I bet they would ask themselves, the same way that localization team did, "why the hell did we changed it to America in the first place?!".

Yes, indeed, sometimes things just go horribly wrong. But then again, I think it's apples to oranges. Making the way hierarchy is expressed less specifically Japanese is a far cry from actually hard-changing the setting to another continent...

Yet, neither are unheard of in the world of modern theater and opera. shudders

Again, you're assuming it's possible to constantly change and match everything in 1:1 ratio. Instead of bending over backwards to fit it into completely different culture and possibly fuck it up in the long run, when something they couldn't predict shows up, I'd much rather they focus all of their effort and creativity to translate it accurately in the first place.

No translation or localisation is ever 1:1. Accuracy is a relative term and has different aspects and parameters.

We're not dealing with babies that need to be hand-hold. We're dealing with lesbians that do the hand-holding instead.

I know! Isn't that great?!

Also sorry for the double post, but I wanted to address both preceding posts separately and can't really multi-quote easily, can I?

Also @BD, in which chapter of Kobayashi's was that mistranslation you mentioned earlier? I'm going through it right now, it's a good read, but I've not yet stumbled across the passage, I think.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 4:24PM

As you’ve just demonstrated, using nicknames, particularly relatively early in an acquaintance, in the context of a US high school is entirely different than doing the same in a Japanese one,

Yes, that's the exact point I was trying to make there.

and both are different than using/dropping honorifics.

Also undeniably true. See next paragraph.

The kinds of localization you’re talking about implicitly says, “These two things are essentially similar or parallel” when they’re simply not.

Partly true. A localisation is an approximation, not a full equivalency. There often isn't much full synonymy between languages when we factor in context and cultural aspects. Thus we can only approximate via similarities.

Again, it only matters in a translation when the issues are explicitly thematized, but when they are, full localization can amount to a substantial misrepresentation of the origin text.

Also true. I think, however, that the original is not being misrepresented. It just works differently, by the socio-linguistic rules of the target language.

This means that I am more willing than you to take a step back from the setting being as specifically Japanese as possible. That's the big difference I see between our perspectives. I don't need the story to be as specifically Japanese as possible. I don't think it loses anything substantial in this case, as the hierarchies, while less explicit, are still well-represented.

We simply expect different things from and value different aspects in our entertainment products. Truth be told, I would probably have put myself into your "camp" a year ago or so. I've since written my BA thesis on translation and found the domesticating aspect of my subject fascinating. It's a lot more work, and there is obviously an added risk with ongoing IPs, but it can be quite worthwhile.

Not at all. Let me give you this incredibly obvious example: So their relationship starts out on first name basis, which is entirely wrong to their social situation, but let us overlook it in charitable spirit.

It's not wrong when speaking English. Remember, we express social differences and hierarchies differently in English than we do in German, let alone Japanese. The characters' relationship stays the same, they just use the target language's normal tools to express it. In this specific case I'd argue that English is actually higher-context and less explicit than Japanese.

Then they change their more intimate approach to nicknames, which contradicts that they still wanted to be able to use them in public, which does not fly with their official relationship in this scenario, but let us be incredibly unfathomably kind and accept this alteration.

When did nicknames become socially unacceptable when speaking to your friends in English, or any western language for that matter? While I must say that at least the boys hardly ever used affectionate nicknames, I certainly wouldn't rule it out among girls.

Now let's say that later in the manga, Touko and Yuu decide to actually use nicknames now. What would the script writer for the dub do now? They have written themselves into a corner for absolutely no reason but lazy convenience.

That's when they own the consequences of their actions and get creative. It's the more challenging, but also fun part of localisation. I'm sure they'd eventually think of something pretty nice.
I also take issue with the assertion that it is "lazy convenience" on the writer's side to alter the denomination of the characters. Quite the opposite. It means putting in extra effort and thinking.

I am not even asking for suffixes here, simply changing from last to first names was entirely feasible to do.

That might have been an interesting angle to take, like I said. It wasn't to be, and I am simply enjoying what we got.

Nicknames exist in both cultures.

Yes, and they do so at different levels of familiarity. "Dear", "darling", "honey", "cutie" and the like carry different meanings to different people at different times in different situations. The use of nicknames (or more importantly: specific nicknames) is likewise not a perfect equivalent for dropping the honorific or using the first name, but it really did the job for me.

Altering the text and altering the meaning are not the same thing and you know it.

And I don't see how the meaning was altered, despite being quite aware of the social dynamics at work. I feel they were appropriately conveyed in the dub, ever so slightly flattened.

It is not at all. I never judged the dub, I judged the script . If this had been done to the officially licensed manga I would have had the exact same reaction.

I wasn't trying to insinuate that. I was drawing a parallel between the futility of the general "subs vs dubs" debate and the "domestication vs foreignisation" debate that exists in localisation.

The author's intent always supersedes the reader's convenience. The cultural context supersedes the ideal of being universally applicable.

I generally agree. Thing is, I think the dub does an excellent job of relaying the author's intent and I don't think leaving honorifics in would be relaying the authors intent better, just in a different way.

P.S.
If you're wondering why I'm still answering after promising you the final word: Your post just didn't read like it was the final word or you wanted it to end yet. More like you were motivating me to keep responding for a while longer. I think the discussion is going splendidly, by the way. It's nice.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 3:02PM

It's true full localization makes it easier for people from different culture to understand everything, but is it really for the better?
I, and many other fans, read and watch manga and anime, because we like japanese culture and for people who are not familiar with it, it's great way to introduce it to them or make them curios about it.

It most certainly depends on what audience you're targeting. I'm not universally arguing the complete removal of all Japanese cultural elements, but different adaptations will have different styles, aims and results.
If you intend an adaptation of a manga/anime to be an "entry drug", so to speak, targeted at people mostly or utterly unfamiliar with Japanese idiosyncrasies, the constant use of jargon might be off-putting to them. Granted, I don't think YagaKimi was intended to be such a case, but it's a perspective to take into consideration. Think of it as "accessibility".

Removing all of it and completely localizing the work, actually comes off pretty xenophobic to me. How people are supposed to learn about different cultures than theirs, when any exposure they can experience is constantly removed. What's the point of importing something made outside of your country if instead of appreciating the differences and experiencing things from different view, you're instead erasing all of it's uniqueness and replace it with things already familiar.

Yes, a complete re-adaptation can come off as really disrespectful towards the original. Think Oldboy's remake or the excellent Stieg Larsson movie adaptations made in Europe that were likewise remade in America.

Introducing new cultures can be done in different ways. Sudden, strong confrontation and/or immersion can have undesired reactance or whiplash effects, but can also kick off quite a bit of interest and even quick adaptation to new circumstances. You can also, of course, slowly ease someone into a new setting before they are fully immersed in it. That's what the omission or reduction of some cultural differences does.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 2:35PM

You don't. Change. Character. Dynamics. Or. Personalities.

Which is exactly what happened in the localised version. The characters weren't changed. Their dynamic wasn't changed. Just the way they expressed their dynamic was adapted to the target language. We needn't even talk adaptation to culture here, just language. "Senpai" is not a word in the English language, and neither are other honorifics.

If they knew that this scene would happen, they would not have made them address each other by first name from the start. It isn't even that much of a cultural dissonance to address someone by last name. It is entirely ridiculous to assume that the majority of anime watchers would not be aware of this cultural nuance.

Family name basis kind of works, and is commonly used in English anime dubs, true. Also, I'm not assuming that anime watchers are not familiar with Japanese idiosyncrasies, but that doesn't mean that you can't put in the extra effort to creatively problem-solve such linguistic issues.

Whether they knew of the scene is an interesting question, but I'm very happy with the result either way. I could very well imagine an ambitious translator/script writer setting their mind to creating a version that flows as naturally as possible in English by reducing foreign idiosyncrasies in the text. I wholeheartedly appreciate the effort as well as the result.

Your argument sounds like this "Well if we translate their words, might as well translate their cultural background to American!" That is not what a localisation does.
That is a bad excuse to give localisors free reign to abuse their power. The idea is to be as close as possible to the original, not to perfectly imitate it. Those lines I mentioned are blatantly wrong and go against what the original tried to convey. Therefore they are unacceptable. We are not talking about sentence structure or idioms here, this is a intentionally altered meaning.

Localisation strives to make the target version of the text indistinguishable from one that was originally written in that language. Such texts can include jargon like Japanese honorifics, but I'd say that ideally they should not.
I'll repeat the all-important mantra: Your mileage may vary.

Truth be told, this just feels like the old "dubs vs subs" debate reloaded, and I think we should maybe stop now. You can have the final word if you like. I think we'll have to "agree to disagree" either way, and I'm not really on a mission to convert anyone.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 2:15PM

Sorry, this just doesn't fly with me. It was a blatant error on the localisation's part and ignorant of the cultural context. I'm the last person to care about honorofics in almost any context, but when it is essential to the plot or the dynamic, I will not overlook it.

Like I said, YMMV. I accept your standpoint as yours, but don't see a good enough reason to adopt it for myself.

Nicknames were not at all acceptable for Yuu and Touko's relationship at that point and simply changed
their characters.

Remember, it's being localised into a culture that is not Japanese. As such, nicknames are perfectly acceptable early in a relationship. Many people start using them pretty much from the get-go. It would be similarly acceptable for Touko to refer to a junior student and friend as "XYZ, dear" as it is for a senpai to refer to a kouhai by their first name. Less hierarchical, probably, but then again: the target culture is less hierarchical to begin with.

That is a negative alteration. Influencing the audience's perception of what the source material says is a heavy responsibility that should never be abused, lest we get nonsense like the "I am not into girls or dragons" line by Kobayashi in the dub of Dragon Maid or the "we are cousins" nonsense in Sailor Moon.

I rarely use absolutes as factual statements, but no matter how close the translation is, you are never reading or watching the source material, unless you've got near-native skills in the source language and culture and are thus actually reading/watching the original version. Even if it's Japanese VO with subtitles, it is not the original version. It is not how the creator originally wrote it or intended the media to be consumed.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 1:47PM

But in a Western context you don't speak of people in third person in such a stilted way in all other cases...

And that is what I consider the difference between a translated and a localized version. Looking beyond the linguistic and cultural idiosyncrasies of the original and doing what actually works and exists in the target language and culture. Obviously: YMMV. Tastes are different. There is no perfect translation or localization that works for everyone. The original isn't perfect for everyone either.
Hence my omission of honorifics - they're just not a thing in either German or English, so they're dropped, or rather replaced. Calling back to Marissa Lenti's script for the anime again, I think she's done a stellar job for the most part, even with the scene in chapter 11/episode 7 (?) where names and honorifics become the main subject of dialogue. She instead goes for nicknames, which isn't quite as easy to consistently implement, but works out pretty well. For that episode, it would have worked out perfectly if she'd thought to have Touko refer to Yuu as "Yuu, dear" instead of just having Sayaka remark that "something feels off" in general.
Since I read the manga with the voices of Tia Ballard as Yuu and Luci Christian as Touko, I must confess it was slightly awkward to have Yuu say "Touko. Darling." during the wakeup in chapter 44. It works, but the throwback to Darling in the Franxx, in which Ballard also did a fantastic job as the female lead, is certainly there.

And Blastaar, don't worry, no more silly jokes until another one comes to mind. So it could be in five minutes, or five months, or never.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 1:20PM

^ Pls make more.

Or stop. Stop also works.

Why was it you of all people that decided to rain down on my parade?

I don't think Blastaar's being quite serious.

@BD
yeah, that one didn't survive in my personal edit, but I was seriously considering whether I should keep it.

Like I said, I am very saddened that the 4s translation didn't keep the horrible Yuu puns. The version I read first had at >least 3 of those in one chapter. It was terribly terrific.

Honestly I've not been enjoying them in the manga proper. As gags in the community, sure, but I was always a bit put-off by them in the manga, and unsure whether it was some Japanese convention they tried to emulate in the English version or just a silly pun.

OK ok ok

One more silly joke.

Touko and Yuu have just come out to the Koito family. Rei walks up to Touko and says:

• "So, you're my sister's lesbian girlfriend, huh?"
• "Um, yeah, thanks for accepting me."
• "Well, you do Yuu, I guess."
• "Did you just..."

And thus Touko, Yuu and her parents stood there, dumbstruck, mouths agape.

last edited at Sep 5, 2019 8:28AM

Has anyone made the pun yet that we had another true climax during what should be denouement after the story's already culminated?

If not, here you go.

I meant from a literary point of view. The first few volumes built up a number of conflicts that shaped the plot. Things like Touko hiding her true self behind a mask and acting like her sister, or Yuu thinking she's incapable of falling in love then falling for someone she can't confess her feelings to, not to mention the love triangle with Sayaka's feelings.

All of that is already resolved in the story. There aren't many remaining issues to address for the main couple (though some side characters still have unresolved plot points).

So, as far as storytelling goes, the main plot is over. Anything that happens now is relatively minor compared to the overarching concept of YagaKimi (and I think that includes everything after the confession scene in the student council room). And I don't think an author of the caliber of Nakatani-sensei would drag a story on just for the fluff.

(Also, everyone please do stop with the passive agressive replies. It doesn't make you look smart or superior, just >conceited.)

You are absolutely correct. The main "conflicts" Nakatani built her story around are resolved. As such, the narrative of Bloom into You is finished and concluded. Anything more would have to be an entirely new story with the same characters, which can be perfectly fine if the author feels like doing it (and not just for monetary gain) and can deliver good quality, at least well above fanfiction level.

Think spin-offs or late continuations. They can be great, but often aren't, especially when the prime motivation is making more money and telling a story is just a vessel.

If Nakatani had an inner urge to eventually write new stories about Touko and Yuu, I'm sure they'd be nice stories. If she properly set another clear goalpost for a new story arc instead of just plodding along ad infinium, she might end up creating another marvelous piece of art.

If she doesn't feel like expanding on Touko and Yuu, that's gonna be fine as well. She's given us way more than we could reasonably have expected already.

Also lol @Matsuri-wins' posts.

Edit:

I am often surprised that some forced sequels turn out good and have been wrong countless times due to that, but it is >always safer to end it on a high note instead of gambling for the miraculous masterpiece sequel/prequel. It's even rarer >in very self-contained narratives like YagaKimi.

Yeah, I've seen excellent sequels to completed stories, but continuing a masterpiece in a manner worthy of the original is difficult. Drawing another parallel to the novel series I mentioned, the Black Jewels, the author has written seven continuations and spin-offs to her original trilogy, and only the (currently) final one, published eleven years after the trilogy originally concluded, was of the same quality, and not throughout as well. (Gosh darnit, just found out that she's still not quitting despite providing the absolutely perfect ending to her story already. Probably should have left it there).

last edited at Sep 4, 2019 1:01PM

The world often isn't as hostile a place as we make it out to be.

Key word there: often. In some situations, it can be just as hostile, or even more hostile, than we make it out to be.

But I'll drop my point here before I can truly risk a ban for letting my anarchist side show itself on the surface here.

Well, the debate would just be an exchange of arguments for optimism vs. pessimism (often misconstrued as realism, which would be a balance of the two).

To nip things in the bud:

Optimism has value as how you interact with and what you expect from the world will often influence not only your perception, but actual outcomes as well.
Go into a situation (over)confident and you'll tend to find more success from it.

Risk: sometimes it fails, and depending on the situation you applied your optimistic expectations to, consequences can be dire (traffic and personal safety come to mind)

Pessimism would have the exact opposite consequences. Expecting bad things to happen everywhere not only makes you perceive bad things more strongly (confirmation bias), but also leads to results being less favourable more often (self-fulfilling prophecy). Add to that that we humans tend to have a negativity bias anyway and perceive negative events more strongly than positive ones. An evolutionary safety mechanism to keep us from being careless.

Benefit: Since pessimism is the extreme of caution, you may end up avoiding some terrible things that might occur if you were careless.

Thus, obviously, you'll need to temper optimism with carefulness, but not succumb to pessimism at the same time.
Which is best in which situation is often hard to predict.

For the situation at hand, I really couldn't tell which would be the proper course of action. I don't know enough about both Touko's as well as Yuu's parents to assess the risks. Considering that the Koito family was apparently d'accord with Rei doing it and going out with Hiro, they'd probably allow it. The Nanami family has lost one of their daughters, and the one that remains has been a sterling example of a student and daughter so far. I would not be surprised if they cut her a lot of slack and gave her quite a bit of leeway in that regard unless she went completely off the deep end.

I'm off to bed now, I won't be back until tomorrow evening, in about 18 hours.

last edited at Sep 3, 2019 5:47PM

On the subject of getting busy while your partner's parents are home:

Yes, giggles do occur when exploring each other, and those could easily be misinterpreted as simply girls having fun during a sleepover (kinda stereotyping, but tropes usually do have a real-world origin).
Also, not everyone is actually loud during the deed, male and female alike. Partly depends on how sky-high the partner that's being served is shot up into the air (less control often leads to more loud vocalisation), but in no small part their natural inclination and personality.

My personal experience is kinda funny, but not representative. Both my wife and myself were of age at the time we got to it (me 18, she 19), and I did have a lock on my door that I was generally allowed to use at my discretion. The spoiler contains things some might already call TMI. And good thing I did, because my dad would have walked right in on us when we got naked for the first time. My parents were well aware that we'd be doing naughty things and I could literally hear him blush at my abrupt remark that we were busy.

Drawing on both my personal experience, things I've known through friends and the like, as well as more reasonable representations of juvenile sexuality in different regions of the world, including Japan, I would assert that Touko's parents might as well have been rather accepting, as I would imagine Yuu's family might be.

By German standards (which obviously says very little about Japan), it's not only perfectly legal to get sexual after you turn 16, but also pretty widely accepted or at least tolerated by parents, especially those of a higher socio-economic status.

The world often isn't as hostile a place as we make it out to be.

last edited at Sep 3, 2019 4:51PM

The other possibility, of course, is that Japanese adult life sucks so bad that no one wants to read about it.

You want just enough adult life to be relatable to the Japanese salaryman, but not too much adult life.

So Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid? That's kinda the perfect combination of salaryman, fantasy hijinks and familial/potentially-romantic bonding to me.

Are we drifting too far off topic?

A little tmi though...

I'll confess that I do that occasionally... and I'll also confess that I do get a little giggle out of people being mildly uncomfortable about it. I may use spoiler tags to give readers an actual choice in future...

@BD
Well, actually, now that I think it over again...
I'll have to concede some points to you.
While I will maintain that sex was on her mind, I will agree that it was not the prime intention. It was a possibility, something that Yuu wouldn't mind if it happened during the sleepover, but not the motive.

Like you said, she wanted to be more intimate with Touko, whether that meant just being able to spend the night together and do some more intense cuddling, or being able to take it all the way to sex.
One thing that got me to agree with you after all was remembering the first night my wife (then girlfriend of one week) slept over. We did share a bed and intensely cuddled, and we did get to fondle each other quite romantically (yes, that's partly nostalgia talking - thanks for allowing me to relive that day again), but we were neither fully undressed against one another, nor did we have sex. There was no genital contact at all.

That came two days later, and sex came the next weekend...

@Blastaar
@KueKyuuQ
Yeah, I agree that it's not all that easy to expand on a dedicated romance after the initial milestones have been reached. It would require either going Slice of Life, focusing on further milestones in the future of the couple (Clannad After Story comes to mind, although I still haven't watched or read it - I just know a few things about it) or, having planned it from the start, allowing the couple to experience interesting stories... as a couple.
(drawing on het anime again for references)
Think Bunny Girl Senpai, but they actually become a full-fledged couple after the first three episodes instead of the weird limbo they're in until ep. 13, and solve the mysteries together as a couple.
Sword Art Online got pretty close to that, but committed the grave mistake to not give equal gravity to both characters and also mostly kept them apart during their adventures.

Again, my favourite Novel series, the Black Jewels by Anne Bishop stands out. Its couple is fully formed about 60% through the last book of the initial trilogy, but not only did that leave another 150 pages for them to take care of the overarching story as a couple, but the author wrote several continuation/spin-off novels that told good to in some cases fantastic stories about not only side- and minor characters, but also allowed the central characters to experience adventures and deal with conflicts as a couple.

I don't always just want to see characters become a couple, but rather also do things as a couple. Bloom into You, again, did a lot more in that regard than most other romance I've seen, but I wouldn't mind it expanding the idea further.

Maybe an unpopular opinion but personally I want to see more stories that are yuri first and anything/everything else >else. Sadly most non-h Canon (so not just subtext) yuri series don't get much good yuri porn (and the less said about >the hetshit, the better). It's a niche of a niche of a niche.

Honestly being Yuri is just another attribute/subgenre to me. It doesn't enhance or diminish the value of the story for me, but can make for a very interesting plot element. Bloom into You, to me, is a masterwork romance story that happens to be Yuri. Sure, were it not, it would have played out differently in many regards, but I think I could have enjoyed such a story just the same if it was told as well.

Good hentai is hard to come by, indeed. An American researcher recently put the biggest issue I have with (especially modern) porn in really nice words: (roughly) "The issue with internet pornography is the framing of everyday sexual acts as the humiliation of the female, making her nothing more than a tool for his sexual gratification." I think this issue is slightly less severe in Yuri porn, but the humiliation/devaluation aspect is still overly present.

Rule 34 has no exceptions but it doesn't say anything about the volume or quality of the porn. There will always be one >but there's no guarantee that there will be a hundred, or that they will be any good. Of course, you can argue with yuri >it's the emotional aspect of the relationship that's most important, not the sexual aspect.

I think I've seen, like, two hentai doujin for YagaKimi, and at least one of which, a reinterpretation of the locker room scene, was actually not all that bad. Not the most in-character doujin I've seen, that title goes to a relatively recent Black Lagoon doujin, but quite decent at least.

I think there's not much more to explore for Touko/Yuu.

Yeah, because a relationship really doesn't have any development worth mentioning beyond having sex for the first time... /s
Seriously, could authors please look beyond the first milestones? Far too often the characters only get to hold hands, or at best kiss at the end of the story. Almost never do we get to witness their joined life, which is a huge deal, believe it or not, and filled with smaller and larger conflicts, hardships and challenges.
Sure, we've seen a lot more of relationship development in Bloom into You compared to what we normally see, but their story is actually far from over. At least judging from my experience, being in a single, stable relationship for almost twelve years.

The point about her innocence I made at least was about her asking Touko to stay over at her place, for the reasons I >already listed back then. Many people blew it out of proprotion like she asked to have sex, but that was not what that >moment was about. She considered even that simple request a big deal and was embarrassed, but some people saw >that as her being embarassed for wanting to ask for sex (which is totally ridiculous). Again, I point to the fact that she >couldn't have known Touko's parents would not be home.

I'll be another one to bite and say: While everyone is entitled to interpret a literary work for themselves, I consider the circumstantial evidence sufficient to say that Yuu was very much thinking about sex or at least heavy petting and making out when asking for the sleepover. Partly because they had gone on dates before, made out before and had also been physically intimate, despite the circumstances being very different. (Locker room scene and chapter 22 https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch16#27 https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/bloom_into_you_ch22#27 )
Again: you're not wrong, just as no one is right in their interpretation. Some people consider the evidence towards conclusion A more convincing, others end up assuming B. There is no truth in literary interpretation, not even the author can decide your headcanon.

last edited at Sep 3, 2019 12:12PM

The NSFW tag spoiled alot ch44.

Yeah, sadly it kinda does. I mean, it was rather obvious that it would happen, but it was refreshing to walk into the scene blind.

On the other hand, if someone were tempted to read it at work . . .

Not gonna lie... I did. On my cell, using my mobile data, not the the company WiFi, while taking a short break.

Not all heros wear capes.

Sacrifices must be made. Besides, some of the stuff we edit in the office isn't technically safe for work either, and as long as I keep getting the jobs done ahead of schedule they won't bother terminating the intern.

To that logic I always want to ask: Would you be comfortable with having anyone at your work see you read manga in > the first place? 90% of the time people would most likely say no. A lot of stuff not tagged NSFW is already very
awkward as is. There are manga without even the Ecchi tag that show partial nudity or compromising shots that
insinuate lewd things.

I would just not risk it overall if you aren't in a well controlled space.

Yeah, I often avoided even mentioning that I fancied Anime and Manga. It really clashes with what else many people know about me and perceive of me, and there are those... questionable... implications.
I've kinda started coming out of my shell and wearing it on my sleeve a bit more proudly than before.

last edited at Sep 2, 2019 4:05PM

The NSFW tag spoiled alot ch44.

Yeah, sadly it kinda does. I mean, it was rather obvious that it would happen, but it was refreshing to walk into the scene blind.

On the other hand, if someone were tempted to read it at work . . .

Not gonna lie... I did. On my cell, using my mobile data, not the the company WiFi, while taking a short break.